Accusers and Deniers


15 Comments for “Accusers and Deniers”

  1. posted by Jorge on

    That ABC News piece is fascinating. There’s an expression, “Don’t s*** where you eat.” It looks like they both admitted to that.

    But just as it’s been pointed out in Brendan O’Neil opinion piece on Kevin Spacey and the accusation by Anthony Rapp, which this site has linked to, there are serious credibility problems with these two initial accusations against George Takei and Richard Dreyfus. There is a single accuser. The alleged incident occurred decades ago, thus each accuser’s memories are probably blurry. The accusations are being made in the context of the “Me, too” phenomenon, which is making disclosures socially rewarding and empowering. It’s quite possible we’re dealing with false memories.

    One of them confided in friends about the event, you say? Those friends could have heard something different than what was disclosed to them. That over the course of decades, the accuser came to remember the friends’ version, rather than what actually happened. The friends never went to law enforcement to memorialize their accounts, so that there was an opportunity to see, are they actually corroborating, or are there inconsistencies. That opportunity is lost now.

    As described, Scott Brunton’s story about passing out drunk in his first date’s bedroom and waking up to being groped with his pants down strikes me as barely actionable by modern standards even if he had reported it right away. But decades later? Frankly I’m not sure he didn’t pass out while being groped (which is admittedly still a problem). How are we to possibly tell now? So for now I say believe Takei: he grabbed people who came into his room without getting “Yes means yes” consent while they were fully awake.

    And for now I say believe Dreyfuss: he made repeated lewd comments to Jessica Teich about her going to his trailer and looking at his genitalia, believing they were friends and social equals, and instead of rejecting his sexual advances outright, he thought she played along with him but never made herself available.

    These “Me Man, Too” stories are gripping and I think it would benefit society to hear more of them.

    Reply
    • posted by Jorge on

      Oh, and I posit that all of Takei’s victims were sober and unimpaired.

      Reply
  2. posted by David Bauer on

    Meanwhile, a US Senate candidate – a darling of the moral majority -has a habit of dating young, teenage girls. At least one girl was a minor.

    Reply
    • posted by Jorge on

      It’s probably God’s judgment on America for electing him over and over.

      I really believe that, but I don’t have the heart to say it more than once.

      Reply
    • posted by Tom Scharbach on

      Meanwhile, a US Senate candidate – a darling of the moral majority -has a habit of dating young, teenage girls. At least one girl was a minor.

      As his defenders have been pointing out, Judge Roy Moore was just channeling Joseph and the Holy Spirit. Not to worry.

      Reply
      • posted by Jorge on

        Yes, I’m sure someone as skilled with his hands, familiar with dirty hiding places, and learned in Biblical matters as Roy Moore can draw a great deal of inspiration between the pages from the virgin Joseph, about whom I’m sure there’s a lot we don’t know. And I’m not going to say anything more rude to Joseph’s memory than that. How disgraceful.

        It was rather a shame that he was ordered by Rome to take Mary all the way to Bethlehem so soon after she entered his household. You really can’t do that sort of thing to new families, but I guess they turned out okay.

        Reply
    • posted by Tom Scharbach on

      Yes, I’m sure someone as skilled with his hands, familiar with dirty hiding places, and learned in Biblical matters as Roy Moore can draw a great deal of inspiration between the pages from the virgin Joseph, about whom I’m sure there’s a lot we don’t know.

      Quite a number of news articles and blog posts have emerged/reemerged in recent days reflecting on the penchant of evangelical culture to tolerate/encourage pairing off teenage girls with older men. Moore appears to be or have been part of that culture, and his defenders also.

      The classic statement of that philosophy is probably Duck Dynasty’s Phil Robertson:

      “Make sure that she can cook a meal, you need to eat some meals that she cooks, check that out,” he said. “Make sure she carries her Bible. That’ll save you a lot of trouble down the road. And if she picks your ducks, now, that’s a woman.”

      “They got to where they’re getting hard to find,” Robertson remarked. “Mainly because these boys are waiting until they get to be about 20 years old before they marry ‘em. Look, you wait until they get to be 20 years old, the only picking that’s going to take place is your pocket.”

      The Duck Commander company founder added: “You got to marry these girls when they are about 15 or 16, they’ll pick your ducks. You need to check with mom and dad about that of course.”

      Robertson started dating his wife when she was 14 and married her when she was 16.

      The problem with this is that the bride is still a child. As one blog reflecting on the practice put it:

      Courting is a term specific to these communities. It does not imply agency. The agency, in courtship culture, belongs to the man. A man becomes interested in a girl. He approaches her father and asks for his permission to court her. At this point the father talks to the girl, to find out whether she is interested, but let’s be honest here—how much agency does a sheltered 14-year-old homeschool girl have, particularly when she has been taught that her role in life is that of wife and mother, and that she is to obey her father until he gives her away in marriage? And remember—she is still a child.

      The father determines what the courtship will look like. In the most strict courtship, the couple is never allowed to be alone or to have any physical contact (including holding hands). When the man is ready, he approaches the girl’s father and asks his permission to marry her. The father may say he doesn’t think they’re ready, or may give the man tasks to complete. When the father approves the match, the man is free to ask the girl to marry him. And again, I ask you, what agency does the girl truly have? Her choices are bounded. What comes next? Well, let’s just say that long engagements are frowned upon.

      When Moore insisted, in his Hanity interview, that he was careful to ask the parent’s permission before dating a teenage girl, and treated that as a defense, he was reflecting the codes of that culture.

      If evangelical Christians in Alabama reject Moore at this point (and I don’t think that they will), it will not be because he had a preference for teenage girls. It will be because he broke the code and engaged in sexual activity with the girls.

      As for me (not being a part of evangelical, or even Christian, culture), I’d suggest, Jesus or not, that a prudent rule of thumb would be “If she’s so young that you have to ask her parent’s permission to date, you probably shouldn’t be dating her.”

      Reply
  3. posted by Tom Scharbach on

    It’s probably God’s judgment on America for electing him over and over.

    America elected Roy Moore to nothing. Roy Moore is the product of Alabama’s Christo-Republican political culture, and is Alabama’s Christo-Republican political culture that kept electing him over and over.

    Reply
  4. posted by Tom Scharbach on

    Ah, the latest from the defenders of Judge Roy Moore.

    The more things change …

    My question is this: When are the so-called Christians in Alabama going to start calling out Judge Moore and his Christio-Republican supporters? So far, nary a peep out of them. Is nothing so offensive that the supposedly “good” Christians won’t stand silently aside while conservative Christians circle the wagons to protect their own? Or is it that conservative Christians have so taken over the Christian landscape that none of the supposedly “good” Christians will speak out for fear of ridicule/retribution?

    Reply
    • posted by Tom Scharbach on

      Ah, the latest from the defenders of Judge Roy Moore.

      This is the correct link to the anti-Semitic robocall being deployed in support of Judge Roy Moore.

      The fact that Judge Moore’s supporters would deploy blatant anti-Semitism to bring down legitimate reporting by the Washington Post isn’t shocking at this point, I suppose. But it should be.

      Reply
      • posted by Doug on

        You are correct this should be shocking. But let us not loose site of which side of the political spectrum this s**t is coming from.

        Reply
    • posted by Tom Scharbach on

      You are correct this should be shocking. But let us not lose site of which side of the political spectrum this s**t is coming from.

      It is coming from the conservative Christian and Alt-Right segments of the Republican base, a much pampered coalition that is the heart and soul of the Republican Party. Both camps are toxic.

      Reply
  5. posted by David Bauer on

    Aye, but Stephen will try to ignore or downplay the accusations, because his “one true party” narrative needs to view the alt-right and hardcore fundamentalists as being quirky, victims of pc persecution.

    Reply
  6. posted by Polymath Level8 on

    Who would have thought that the left would fight so dirty, by using Puritanism of all things, to have people make accusations of thirty years ago that can’t be proven or disproven. And let the brainless mob do the rest.
    Forget all the basics of society and of Western Culture: the rule against bearing false witness and the judicial rule of innocent until proven guilty.
    You people disgust me.

    Reply
    • posted by Tom Scharbach on

      Who would have thought that the left would fight so dirty, by using Puritanism of all things, to have people make accusations of thirty years ago that can’t be proven or disproven. And let the brainless mob do the rest.

      Reality check. Nine women on the record as of this morning. Over forty men and women corroborating the accounts. My view, having read the accounts and, in several cases, listened/watched the witnesses, is that the evidence is credible.

      Forget all the basics of society and of Western Culture: the rule against bearing false witness and the judicial rule of innocent until proven guilty.

      After Judge Moore has been elected and seated in the Senate, the Ethics Committee is going to have ample opportunity to hear, weigh and evaluate the evidence, the credibility of the accusers and corroborating witnesses, and make a decision.

      Your position seems to be that the accusations, the accounts of corroborative witnesses and evaluation of those accusations and corroborating evidence should not be weighed by voters , given no weight or probity by voters making a decision about whether or not to elect Judge Moore to the Senate. Is that right?

      You people disgust me.

      No doubt. But I’m not surprised, given that you are a self-described polymath, an expert at many things.

      Reply

Leave a Comment