Updated November 10, 2008
California, Florida and Arizona banned same-sex marriage; Arkansas banned adoptions by gay couples. Kevin Ivers, blogging over at Citizen Crain, hits the nail on the head:
The 2008 election was, in fact, a disaster for gays.... When I learned on Facebook this morning that dear gay friends of mine in New York were dancing in Times Square, and other friends in Washington were celebrating in front of the White House and actually comparing the experience to the fall of the Berlin Wall-while gay marriage was going down the toilet in California-it was astounding to me....
The gay movement used to be about thinking outside the box, including the one we ourselves might be in, and taking nothing for granted. But something happened over the last several years that changed all that. Now it's just…a gigantic co-opting of our energies by a political party that does nothing in return. Besides a whole lot of fundraising.
As one of his readers comments:
I briefly showed up a Stonewall "Victory" party in Sacramento which I THOUGHT was focused on Prop 8. Turns out it was more of a Democratic Party victory party with little emphasis on Prop 8.... By about 9:00 pm, as Obama was giving his victory speech, the results for Prop 8 started trickling in and showed an early lead for "YES." But no one seemed to notice or care.... By the ebullient atmosphere, you'd think Prop 8 was some new dog licensing statute.... I left after only a few minutes-heartsick, disgusted, and angry at the return numbers and also at peoples' dispassionate reaction.
And here's another first-hand account by a volunteer on the "No on 8" campaign, who describes the "No" campaign as "the most poorly put together effort I have ever seen."
The banner headline in the Nov. 7 Washington Blade blares "'Change' Has Come to America" with a huge, reverential photo of Obama, arm raised to accept the adulation of his adoring masses. It overshadows a smaller boxed article, "Voters in Calif., Fla. and Ariz. Ban Same-Sex Marriage." In an era in which gay activism has become a wholly owned fundraising subsidy of the Democratic National Committeee, that's the change we can believe in.
More. Over at Slate, Farhad Manjoo examines the impact of African-American Obama supporters, 70% of whom voted for Prop 8, and concludes: "Had black turnout matched levels of previous elections, the vote on the gay-marriage ban-which trailed in the polls for much of the summer-would have been much closer. It might even have failed."
The same could be said of Florida, where a hugh black turnout for Obama helped to pass an amendment banning not just same-sex marriage but legal recognition of "substantially similar" partnerships that might bestow the benefits of marriage.
Furthermore. You might think major outreach to black voters, making the case to oppose these anti-gay amendments, would have been a priority for LGBT political organizers this year. It wasn't, perhaps because mostly white LGBT activists are told they have no business telling blacks how to vote, and they believe it.
Of course, this might have helped.
More Still. The Obama-quoting pro Prop 8 robocall. This deserves much more attention, but that wouldn't serve the Obamist cause, would it.
51 Comments for “This Was Victory?”
posted by BobN on
Once again, incisive analysis, Stephen!!
Better we should have donated our money to the GOP — as you no doubt did — thus insuring that those who bankrolled the amendments in California, Florida, and Arizona could have used just a little bit of our cash directly against us.
God, you guys are so pathetic. The GOP doesn’t support gay rights. Get over it. Accept it. Stop holding the Dems to a standard you’re a century away from in your own party.
geez
posted by bls on
Oh, for God’s sake. A man gets elected President who 40 years ago would have had the dogs set on him – and you can’t even find a small amount of pleasure in this?
Even my next-door neighbor, who votes Republican pretty consistently, surprised me when she said she thought that Obama’s election was “good for the country.”
“Independent” Gay Forum really has become pathetic.
posted by avee on
Did the commenters above actually bother to read Steve’s item? I don’t see him anywhere saying that gays should have donated to the GOP. But it’s easier for them to distort the argument and attack a strawman that deal with the issue that’s actually raised — by making Obama (and his get out the vote efforts) the prime beneficiary of gay dollars, rather than fighting the anti-gay initiatives, we were co-opted. But no, let’s just damn those Republicans and feel reeeeeal good about ourselves. O-BA-MA!!! O-BA-MA!!!!
posted by Attmay on
Oh, for God’s sake. A man gets elected President who 40 years ago would have had the dogs set on him – and you can’t even find a small amount of pleasure in this?
I can find no pleasure in a man, who is not even descended from former slaves, who believes “marriage is between a man in a woman” getting elected just because of some historical footnote.
If you still believe this is good for the country four years from now after Barack Obreeder sells gays down the river, like Bill Clitoris-lover did. and holds you at gunpoint to fund social programs that will not work, I’ll eat my hat.
Fact: No one in this presidential election supported gay marriage.
Fact: A right that gays and lesbians had was robbed by “popular vote,” made up of both Republicans and Democrats including many Obreeder supporters and 70% of black voters, who bitterly cling to faith and homophobia.
Register as independent. Give money to candidates based on their actions, not party loyalty.
posted by Attmay on
But it’s easier for them to distort the argument and attack a strawman that deal with the issue that’s actually raised — by making Obama (and his get out the vote efforts) the prime beneficiary of gay dollars, rather than fighting the anti-gay initiatives, we were co-opted. But no, let’s just damn those Republicans and feel reeeeeal good about ourselves. O-BA-MA!!! O-BA-MA!!!!
And that’s why we lost. I, for one, am not giving one red penny to any political parties ever again just to get a pat on the head and table scraps like some stupid dog.
America has come far now that a nonwhite individual can be elected President (assuming no fraud). It’s a pity it had to be this one.
posted by Bobby on
“Oh, for God’s sake. A man gets elected President who 40 years ago would have had the dogs set on him – and you can’t even find a small amount of pleasure in this?”
—Does everything have to be about race in this country? Can we not judge Obama on who he is, how he has voted in the past, how he might vote in the future? From the Obama website, now he’s proposing to make volunteering mandatory for high school and college students. That is socialism right there. Can we not accuse him of that because he’s black?
“Even my next-door neighbor, who votes Republican pretty consistently, surprised me when she said she thought that Obama’s election was “good for the country.””
—Yes, but why must that be the only voice heard in this country? Dude, this is not MSNBC!
“”Independent” Gay Forum really has become pathetic.”
—No, this website simply allows all kinds of voices to be heard, and if you don’t like it, you can always join the haters at Huffington Post and Daily Koss.
posted by Jorge on
I find myself a little conflicted.
I really, really do not think it is in the best interests of the gay community for its more conservative wing to be the most on focus when it comes to fighting gay marriage. It really should come from the left that Obama and the Democratic party are unsatisfactory on gay rights issues, especially now.
After all, I care a great deal about the quasi-totalitarian mindset that exists on the far left, which may well stand to gain a great deal of power as a result of this election. They certainly weren’t repudated. They were clearly exposed and linked to Obama, and he was elected anyway. There are a great many more things for me to feel defensive about as a result of this election.
I think when my new big big big boss starts pontificating about Obama, instead of grumbling about that I will grumble about Prop 8 instead.
posted by Jorge on
Does everything have to be about race in this country? Can we not judge Obama on who he is, how he has voted in the past, how he might vote in the future? From the Obama website, now he’s proposing to make volunteering mandatory for high school and college students. That is socialism right there. Can we not accuse him of that because he’s black?
No one is saying we all have to be dancing in the streets and ignore the hypocrisy for four or eight years. But I do think a moment of silence and a kind epitaph about the election of our first black president are appropriate to mark this solemn occassion.
posted by Last Of The Moderate Gays on
“‘Independent” Gay Forum really has become pathetic.”
No, what’s pathetic is the plethora of liberal gays on this board and elsewhere who will spend the next three years explaining away and rationalizing every time we end up only getting the crumbs from Obama’s table, while accusing the conservative gays of being hypocrites. Then, in four years, they’ll happily play step and fetchit (sic) to their Dem masters in order to help facilitate the kissing of our butts in order to get our $$$ and our votes.
“Register as independent. Give money to candidates based on their actions, not party loyalty.”
EXACTLY. BOTH parties have failed. While I genuinely do appreciate the fact that we have broken a race barrier, as I stated elsewhere, I’m CELEBRATING the fact that instead of voting for the lesser of two evils (as I have done for many years now), I voted my conscience by casting my ballot for a third-party candidate. I’m tired of hearing that I’m “throwing away my vote.” Every revolution begins with a spark. NOTHING will change until enough people stand up and say they’ve had enough.
posted by Dawn on
One has to wonder, given his much-hyped margin of victory, why didn’t Obama spend a little of his political capital in the California black community to help defeat Prop 8? This was about the most risk-free thing he could have done to support gay marriage, and he blew it. It does not bode well for his leadership.
posted by Shyamal on
Let me see if I understand this. You wanted Obama to take time off from his campaign to get involved in a state election? And Prop 8 is THE most important issue in the world, right?
Yes, it’s Obama’s fault. It couldn’t be the lack of outreach by the affluent, overwhelmingly white LGBT community who assumed that the Negroes would just fall in line. It couldn’t be the incompetence of the No on 8 organizers. Yeah, Obama would have made all the difference.
posted by Jorge on
What bothers me about Obama that he doesn’t spend much political capital talking about gay issues, period.
Look, many if not most Democrats don’t think it’s a big deal and would be happy if the issue would just go away. They support gay rights but they are not really willing to fight for us. Just like most politicians on most issues. And there are a lot of ways that Obama is on our side. So in once sense Obama is just a typical politician.
But that’s the thing. Obama did not run as just a typical politician. He ran as a change agent. He wants fundamental change in this country. Barack Obama made his mark as community organizer working for social justice. He is a constitutional law professor and personalized the advances of the civil rights movement in his campaign. He’s the most liberal member in the Senate. His campaign implicitly embodied the inclusion of blacks, the poor, hispanics, and to some extent women and gays as people whose interests he would represent and support.
Obama of all people should know the links between the gay rights movement and the black civil rights movement, and that gays are among the least noticed, least valued segment of society. If he really were a new kind of politician, he would speak truth to power on our behalf a lot more often. A lot of us who didn’t vote for Obama, and also plenty who did, know he’s a fake.
I strongly disagree with African Americans who think their grievances are paramount because frankly I think by this point they have a lot more control over their situation, as demonstrated by the fact that an underqualified black person can be elected president of the most powerful country in the world. Was that a little too harsh? Well screw it, over 70% of them ain’t paragons of valuing equality and equal treatment themselves.
posted by Shyamal on
Links between the gay and civil rights movements? Why do people who say that never give any examples? Do tell. Please, enlighten me with tales of gays facing lynchings, bombings and police dogs. You can’t. Because they’re weren’t any. Actually, there might have been. But since gays have the option of hiding what they are–we’ll never know.
I don’t believe that my grievances are paramount. I just believe that gays piggybacking on the African American struggle is an insult to the movement. Like white feminists; you claim something that’s not yours as your own.
Obama’s not a fake. His views about gay marriage are well known. He’s just not saying what you want to hear. He’s not the “most liberal member of the Senate” (your Repub talking points are showing). He’s a centrist pol who came up through the Daley machine. As far as his qualifications for the job: why didn’t any of you more qualified gays run against him?
And will you people please stop with this 70% nonsense. 70% of AAs did not vote yes on 8. 70% of AAs in Cali who showed up to vote did (based on a small exit poll sample). A lot of other people voted for Prop 8, as well. But it’s curious that angry gays are only going after the weakest target. I say: bring it.
And screw me? No, thank you. You’re not my type.
posted by Pat on
i> What bothers me about Obama that he doesn’t spend much political capital talking about gay issues, period.
I’m bothered by that as well, Jorge.
Look, many if not most Democrats don’t think it’s a big deal and would be happy if the issue would just go away. They support gay rights but they are not really willing to fight for us. Just like most politicians on most issues. And there are a lot of ways that Obama is on our side. So in once sense Obama is just a typical politician.
I pretty much agree with that. But there’s two schools of thought. First of all, there were clear differences between Obama and McCain. On the marriage issue alone (forget about civil unions or other benefits for now), they were exactly the same, and both made it clear. However, Obama came out (tepidly) against Prop. 8, while McCain was for it. Heck, in almost in all likelihood he voted for the equivalent proposition in Arizona. Sure, he was against FMA, but only because he felt that states should have imposed inequality instead. Obama (and Biden) did risk some political capital when talking about gay rights, they didn’t stop at hospital visitations (we should be WELL beyond that, right?). They talked about gay couples having the same federal benefits of marriage that straight couples do. Then leave it up to the states as to whether it should be called marriage or not.
So what would have helped us better? Having Obama go all out and be supportive of same sex marriage, but most likely lose the election to someone who would not advance gay rights. Or Having Obama campaign on something that most Americans can accept, while trying to advance gay rights. No, I’m not holding my breath that federal civil unions or the repeal of DADT (to equality in the military) will happen quickly. There are still enough Republicans, and even some Democrats who will fight against it (although I hear Byrd is retiring, so that may help as well). I’ll be looking to see if Obama uses his leadership as president to push for what he promised. If he can’t at least do that, he won’t get my vote in 2012.
Links between the gay and civil rights movements? Why do people who say that never give any examples? Do tell. Please, enlighten me with tales of gays facing lynchings, bombings and police dogs. You can’t. Because they’re weren’t any. Actually, there might have been. But since gays have the option of hiding what they are–we’ll never know.
Shyamal, please understand that I will never say that the struggles of Black and gays throughout this country are exactly the same. What Blacks had to endure was an absolute, unforgivable travesty. And you pointed out the awful things that happened even after slavery was officially abolished. However, the movements are similar in many ways. Gays have been bashed and killed. They’ve been oppressed and persecuted, and haven’t had acceptance by a majority of Americans for almost the whole time since the beginning of the nation. They were not as bad as what Blacks had to endure, but the point is, it’s still bad. The fact, as you suggest, that gays had to hide, is bad enough.
I don’t believe that my grievances are paramount. I just believe that gays piggybacking on the African American struggle is an insult to the movement. Like white feminists; you claim something that’s not yours as your own.
Why is that an insult? Maybe I’m misinterpreting what you are saying here, but how it is an insult to struggle for freedom and equality? Why does the move for freedom and equality have to be one’s own? We learned that discrimination of Blacks (among the other awful things) were wrong. But why on Earth should we stop there? Shouldn’t we also learn that unfair discrimination against other groups such as women (for example, who couldn’t even vote until ninety years ago) and gay persons should be eliminated? If comparisons to the Black struggle and movement help others see the light, I’m all for it.
Obama’s not a fake. His views about gay marriage are well known. He’s just not saying what you want to hear.
That’s true. I wanted to hear that he is in favor of full freedom and equality for gay persons.
And will you people please stop with this 70% nonsense. 70% of AAs did not vote yes on 8. 70% of AAs in Cali who showed up to vote did (based on a small exit poll sample).
Shyamal, it’s not nonsense at all. Sure, I’ll agree with you that it may not be 70% based on the sample size. It could be 65%. It could also be 75%. In almost all likelihood, the polls show that a significant majority of Black persons voted for Prop. 8. What’s distressing to me is the following. Granted, there has been some issues between the gay and Black communities. However, when it comes to the voting booth, gays have overwhelmingly sided with Blacks on issues. You’ll have to forgive some of us if we feel that we’ve been backstabbed.
Now, please understand that this does not mean that all Blacks (if any, for that matter) deserve scorn. Some 30% did oppose Prop. 8, and I’m appreciative of that. And no matter what, the gay persons who used the “N” word against Black persons, whether or not the individual persons voted for or against Prop. 8, was inexcusable.
A lot of other people voted for Prop 8, as well. But it’s curious that angry gays are only going after the weakest target.
That’s not quite true. Granted, some gay persons have only criticized Blacks and that’s all. I would agree with you that that’s wrong. On the other hand, some gay persons and organizations specifically did NOT mention Blacks as one of the reasons, or found reasons to excuse it. So it’s a mixed bag there. There were plenty of causes and blame to go around for the defeat. An even higher percentage of Republicans and conservatives voted for Prop. 8, even despite the governor saying he opposed Prop. 8. Older persons voted overwhelmingly for Prop. 8. Conservative religious persons voted overwhelmingly for it. Conservative religious organizations, even from out of state, donated a lot of money to help support of Prop. 8. The low voter turnout of San Francisco, of all places, didn’t help either.
posted by Jorge on
Links between the gay and civil rights movements? Why do people who say that never give any examples? Do tell. Please, enlighten me with tales of gays facing lynchings, bombings and police dogs. You can’t. Because they’re weren’t any.
Okay, if you want to play that game, please enlighten me as to where are the black lynchings, bombings, and police dogs, because I have not heard of very many such tales within the past 15 or so years when I was paying attention to such things. While you’re reliving history, perhaps you could come back to the present, and tell me about where is the widespread fear among African Americans of being beaten to death on the street by random teens screaming n***er because of who they are wrapping their arms around as they come out of the bar. Perhaps you could show me how shocking the suicide rate is among black teens because they are so universally hated at school? Perhaps you could show me just when the last time it was that a black man was arrested because of the race of the woman he was married to.
I don’t believe that my grievances are paramount. I just believe that gays piggybacking on the African American struggle is an insult to the movement. Like white feminists; you claim something that’s not yours as your own.
What? We don’t a stake in constitutional rights, too? They only apply to black people? Blacks are the only people who have ever been oppressed in the US? Now that they’ve got theirs, they ain’t interested in anyone else? I don’t think so. If African Americans aren’t interested in acknowledging the interests of other oppressed people, they should admit they’ve made it, they shuold admit they’ve turned whiter than George Wallace, and they should turn the reins over to the people who are now at the forefront of the modern struggle for civil rights.
A lot of other people voted for Prop 8, as well. But it’s curious that angry gays are only going after the weakest target. I say: bring it.
Excuse me, blacks are not the weakest target. They just 95-percented (based on cnn.com exit polls) one of their own, and a rather weak candidate at that, to the presidency of the most powerful country of the world. That black victimhood card is getting a little old. African Americans were among the strongest supporters of Prop 8, and it is right to call them out on it.
So what would have helped us better? Having Obama go all out and be supportive of same sex marriage, but most likely lose the election to someone who would not advance gay rights. Or Having Obama campaign on something that most Americans can accept, while trying to advance gay rights.
Oh, good grief, not that again. When I start recovering from hearing the “Yes you can! Si se puede!” mantra from the Obama campaign ringing in my ears, maybe I’ll be a little more sympathetic to Obama applying a different standard to gay people. Why didn’t Biden win the primary instead? And why is it that Sarah Palin had to go all out on “I’M GONNA FIGHT FOR YOU” to parents of disabled children and then be so tepid and chilly when talking about gays visiting their partners in hospitals? I don’t disagree with you Pat, but I don’t get this enchantment with Obama at all.
posted by Shyamal on
Pat, thank you for your reasoned response to my somewhat hyperbolic post. Jorge, it’s amazing how someone could write so much and say so little. Regarding my comments about the links between the gay and Civil Rights movements: your ranting response never answered my question. You said there was a link between the two. I asked for an example. Still waiting.
I never said only African Americans were entitled to civil rights. Is this how it’s going to be? You can’t reply to my point; so you just twist my words? What I said was: our movement is ours, not yours.
That doesn’t make yours any less legitimate. It certainly doesn’t make it any less important. It is, however, different. Gays have adopted iconography from a movement they had nothing to do with. That bothers me. Was there an openly gay, organized, national movement before the Civil Rights Act? If not: why not? If so: where were they when we needed them? And, as long as we’re being so casual about the treatment of oppressed people (oh, some Negroes were tortured and killed years ago? So what. Gays are suffering right now!): gays have the option of not showing the world what they are. For all your victimhood talk–gays can be part of the power structure (because, as those LA protesters who used the N word will tell you–there are no black gays).
Gays are at the forefront of the modern civil rights movement?
Really? When did that happen? Please prove that. What is it you brave freedom fighters do for the rest of us that would hurt us if you stopped doing it?
posted by BobN on
“What I said was: our movement is ours, not yours”
When I look at photos from the 60s with brave black people marching for their civil rights, I notice some white folks walking with them. Some of those white folks sure look like bull dykes and pansies to me. I guess you don’t see them.
posted by BobN on
“Was there an openly gay, organized, national movement before the Civil Rights Act? If not: why not?”
Yes, there was.
posted by Mike Airhart on
Cursing the darkness won’t get anyone very far.
Like some other folks here, I voted for a third-party candidate. I lost faith in Democratic promises of change after Obama and the Dems joined the GOP in a trillion-dollar transfer of wealth from working-class blacks and whites to Wall Street bank and mortgage investors that failed to hold their companies accountable with sane lending and executive-pay policies.
Going forward we can do one or more of the following:
1 — whine at the partisans and pig-headed theocrats that are dividing the nation and bankrupting our government
2 — throw money at D.C.-, and Hollywood-based gay-rights groups that are clearly out of touch with reality
3 — support the National Black Justice Coalition, which is a black gay organization that supports gay equality in marriage as well as equitable access to health care, housing and employment
4 — support gay-affirming organizations that are effective in outreach to conservative religious communities and in exposing the lies and un-American activities of the religious right.
I vote for #3 and #4.
posted by Shyamal on
“When I look at photos from the 60s with brave black people marching for their civil rights, I notice some white folks walking with them. Some of those white folks sure look like bull dykes and pansies to me. I guess you don’t see them.”
BobN: I can’t see what’s not there. Whites in those pictures just look like people to me. And I certainly respect their sacrifice. But I doubt any of them would claim that the movement now belonged to whites because they participated in it.
“Was there an openly gay, organized, national movement before the Civil Rights Act? If not: why not?”
Yes, there was.”
You conveniently forgot my second question. Once again: where were they? And, let me be clear: I’m talking about Selma, Ole Miss, and just about anywhere in Texas. Places where people were beaten up or killed. You’re saying there were a lot of openly gay people who belonged to an openly gay movement who walked into hell with us. I’m asking for a specific example. Why is this so hard?
posted by BobN on
Shyamal, I don’t know how old you are, but you should talk to your elders before you say that the black civil rights struggle wasn’t won by blacks and whites and others together.
“And I certainly respect their sacrifice.”
You respect it by saying the movement was “ours not yours”? Was it not also theirs? Or were they just watching?
“But I doubt any of them would claim that the movement now belonged to whites because they participated in it.”
I doubt any black leaders would say that the Civil Rights movement “belonged” to blacks exclusively. None of the ones whose books I’ve read said so.
Unless you’re a lot older than you sound, you personally didn’t “walk into hell” with anybody. And, if by some miracle you are that old and did walk, call up your old buddies and ask if any of the whites were queer. Then report back.
posted by Shyamal on
BobN: if you’re going to just keep insulting me instead of replying to my points; please say so now so I can stop wasting my time here. Show me where I said I personally walked through hell. You know that’s a lie.
I should, however, rephrase my point about who can claim the movement. Any individual who participated has earned the right to claim their part in it. But, who started the movement, and who did most of the work? I submit that none of them were openly gay whites. Prove me wrong and I will apologize.
If I participated in a pro gay march; would your struggle become an African American one? Could I take all the credit for it? Of course not. I can help. But, if I truly respected you, I would admit that your movement is yours and I’m there to assist.
By the way: still waiting for your answer to my questions. See if you can actually tell the truth and then report back.
posted by Jorge on
You said there was a link between the two. I asked for an example. Still waiting.
Shayamal, please reread my post again. You have demonstrated an ability to write in English, and now you are going to exercise your ability to read and comprehend this language before coming to me with any more requests for repeat information.
I’m feeling generous. I will give you a hint. You asked for examples of gay lynchings and gays having police dogs set on them as proof that there is a link between the gay and black civil rights movements. Obviously since I will not find those exact experiences, I must A) discredit your artificial attempt to limit acceptable responses to only those exact incidents experienced by blacks in the past, and B) present examples of things experienced by gays that are similar to things experienced by blacks as the valid proof of a link between the gay and black civil rights movement. Offense takes priority when one is dealing with the offensive. You never set a preference for how strong the link would be, so I will not tolerate you complaining about my argument’s presentation being less than perfectly tailored to your biases.
Gays are at the forefront of the modern civil rights movement?
Really? When did that happen? Please prove that.
Certainly. I have your own words as the evidence: “Gays have adopted iconography from a movement they had nothing to do with.” So by your own words, gays assumed the mantle themselves, and this happened sometime in the past, after the black civil rights movement began.
What is it you brave freedom fighters do for the rest of us that would hurt us if you stopped doing it?
Oh come on that’s way too easy. We get school bullying laws passed and break down the social norms and stereotypes surrounding gender roles. By “us” I assume you are talking about black people.
posted by Jorge on
Obviously I don’t agree entirely with Mike Airhart. When major events happen, it is necessary to digest and discuss them. Nothing wrong with a little indigestion before starting anew. Just don’t make it permanant.
When at the end of Election Day, your interests are not being represented, you have to represent yourself. We need to be more active. So… throwing money at gay-friendly organizations is an option? Say I have a question. How did Obama do it? He had this whole get volunteers involved thing. We need to do the same thing.
[Hmm, hasn’t that been tried already?]
posted by Shyamal on
Ah, Jorge! More insults! Cool! That’s so much easier than actually making a valid point, isn’t it? Once again: you have no real argument: so you just insult me. You want to go there? So be it. You’re a coward. Hah! I win!
“Discredit my artificial attempt”? Translation: you can’t reply to my point,so you ignore it. School bullying laws? Breaking down gender stereotypes? That’s good for your side. What the hell does that have to do with mine? What you call “assuming the mantle” I call something else. Now, it’s your turn to see if you can comprehend English. When you take something that you didn’t earn, it’s called stealing.
Because even a broken clock is right twice a day–you are right about something. I should have been more specific about what kind of link I wanted. My apologies for that. You seem to think that a handful of closeted homosexuals marching in Selma means that the entire Civil Rights movement now belongs to gays.
I didn’t mean a few(incredibly brave)individuals. I meant organized gay movements similar to the SCLC and SNCC. I believe that if you didn’t produce organizations like those (back when you could be killed for doing so), you have no business claiming to be the heirs to MLK’s legacy.
I look forward to more insults. Next time, forget trying to write an intelligent reply. You have proven that you can’t do that. Just insult me. Use the N word next time. You know you want to 🙂
posted by BryanAndTony on
We’re moving to Canada. Tony is almost 60, and I’m hitting 40. I was kicked out of the Navy for this country. We forwent children for this country. This was, well, not even the last straw. Lets say the last kick in the gut. After protesting for ACT-UP 25 yrs ago, I promised Tony he’d live out his years as a full human being. Unfortunately, that will not be in the “Land of the Free.” I wish you all the luck in the world, but we’re tired.
posted by Jorge on
“Discredit my artificial attempt”? Translation: you can’t reply to my point,so you ignore it. School bullying laws? Breaking down gender stereotypes? That’s good for your side. What the hell does that have to do with mine? What you call “assuming the mantle” I call something else. Now, it’s your turn to see if you can comprehend English. When you take something that you didn’t earn, it’s called stealing.
There’s a constant in all your posts in this topic. It’s a certain bitterness and a willingness to insult and belittle gays and the gay rights movement.
And yet you are somehow mystified that I am insulting you?
School bullying laws? Breaking down gender stereotypes? That’s good for your side. What the hell does that have to do with mine?
School bullying laws, aside from benefitting everyone… there’s a movement to pass them to protect gay students from being singled out for bullying and harassment. The side effect is to put a spotlight and bullying and harassment that is based on racial bias, which exists, though not to the extent that it exists based on gay hatred.
Breaking down gender stereotypes would be a great benefit to Americans and to the African American community in particular. They’re a little more rigid when it comes to male and female gender roles than the rest of the country (especially the young people), and it’s a harmful thing. Oh, token proof: as evidenced by the prevailing music.
posted by Editors on
Jorge and Shamayl,
Why don’t you two go get a room. Your bickering is counterproductive, and worse, BORING. Pls don’t make us take further action.
posted by Tina on
I second that. Why do two people dominate the comment section. Don’t they have e-mail? Maybe it’s fun to overdissect each others e-mails. Perhaps they need lives.
posted by Shyamal on
Oh, I’m sorry. I was under the foolish impression that because the word ‘forum’ is in this site’s name that debate would be welcome. My bad. My apologies for boring you. There’s no need to “take further action” (I’m so scared). I’m out.
One piece of advice before I go. Since we evil African Americans are now the all powerful oppressors of the completely innocent and non racist gay community–you should take the fight to your enemy. I suggest protesting in South Central LA or Compton.
Bye!
posted by Mark on
Dear Editor:
Why not do us all a favor and disable the comments section entirely?
posted by Pomo on
Thanks for this article! As a gay person who is NOT a democrat, it gets old hearing all the same things over and over again. And then to see just how much the democratic party DOESN’T do for us. we’ve made strage bedfellows and we’re the ones getting screwed…
posted by Mark on
Shyamal
How sad that you have such a narrow view of history. Gay men and women have suffered injustices for centuries. The pink triangle symbol derives from the patch that gay concentration camp victims in Nazi Germany were forced to wear. Gays died in the thousands in those death camps. Anti-gay hate crimes continue to be at the top of hate crimes statistics year after year. The sudicide rate among gay teenagers in 10 times the national average for their age group.
You also question: Links between the gay and civil rights movements?
How about the views of Coretta Scott King on the issue?
Coretta Scott King, speaking four days before the 30th anniversary of her husband’s assassination, said Tuesday the civil rights leader’s memory demanded a strong stand for gay and lesbian rights.
“I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice,” she said. “But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, ‘Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.'”
“I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.’s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people,” she said.
And about your invitation into South Central or Compton…we are already there. Thousands of gay black men are struggling to find the courage to step away from the destructive and dangerous “down low” culture into a life of freedom and happiness.
I hope you can find the moral courage to join us in this struggle.
“Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery (and) Selma (Alabama), in Albany, Georgia, and St. Augustine, Florida, and many other campaigns of the civil rights movement,” King said.
posted by dalea on
Bayard Rustin, organizer of the first March on Washington was an out gay man. There is a lot of information about black gays and lesbians here:
http://www.harlemonestop.com/organization.php?id=581
posted by Mike Airhart on
It’s apparent to me that some people here prefer to whine and point fingers, when instead they could communicate with members of the NBJC who seem eager for interracial collaboration and mutual support.
posted by Jorge on
Mr. Editors and Tina, there is an important argument going on here that is a reflection of something that might (or might not) happen across the nation. If you think it’s “counterproductive” I wouldn’t mind an explanation whether you mean to this site or to some overall cause.
This is the first such argument of this topic on this site. I think it is productive to have such a conversation between two very sharply different worlds but very difficult to do nicely.
I think you are both being premature. As for “dominating” the comments section, our posts have been over a rather long time period, giving plenty of other posters time to assert themselves.
posted by Craig on
Jorge,
If you think a sissyspat on a comment section of blog is “important”, then you, my small minded gay friend, must grow up. Nobody, I repeat NOBODY, save you and your like minded friend, cares. Look up the work important. What you’re doing here is best described by the word “masterbatory.” My guess is you’re used to that adjective.
posted by Kim on
Craig,
LOL
W have a word for people like Jorge in Wyoming. It’s called LOSER! LOL
Was that important?
posted by Craig on
Hehe. As Jorge’s idol might say:
You Betcha!
posted by Mike Airhart on
“mostly white LGBT activists are told they have no business telling blacks how to vote, and they believe it.”
Another half-truth. Well, actually, not even half-true.
Pam Spaulding and Republic of T have both told LGBT activists to speak out against black homophobia. Pam, in particular, has said that being a black lesbian makes her no better qualified to confront antigay black pastors.
Furthermore, I see little evidence that white activists believe the racist Cannick. They (and CultureWatch) have only your own timidity and self-pity to blame.
posted by dalea on
Looking at the comments, all I can say is the most visible spokesman for No on 8 was George Takei, Mr. Sulu from Startrek. He is not a white person.
And looking at the figures, we won a majority of Asian and Latino nonevangelical voters.
posted by Mike Airhart on
More LGBT activists that criticized Jasmyne Cannick:
Kevin Naff
Red Seven via Pam Spaulding
Alan McCornick
Sarah Michelle Spinosa
And Wayne Besen criticizes Cannick in his “Anything But Straight” column tomorrow.
posted by Eva Young on
I thought the discussion between Jorge and Shyamal was an interesting one. So I’ll second Jorge’s final comment.
posted by Jorge on
I think you’re being shortsighted and badly misinterpreting me, Craig.
But I think the First Amendment and a free exchange of ideas are important enough, whatever the venue, to exercise a little caution before trying to squash them. I also reserve the priveledge to tell people who try to shut me up that they’re acting a little nutty.
I admit it’s not very nice to see a spat between “gays” and “blacks” and it’d probably be better if we could all get along. I just don’t always feel like being the better person.
By the way, my idol isn’t Sarah Palin, I love masturbating, and I’m more interested in what you think than what you think about me.
posted by avee on
Mike Airhart terms Miller’s comment that “mostly white LGBT activists are told they have no business telling blacks how to vote, and they believe it” as “Another half-truth. Well, actually, not even half-true,” and quotes some gay columnist who don’t agree with Jasmyne Cannick.
Fine, but Airhart fails to explain why there was so little effort to reach out to African American voters by the No on Prop 8 side. So, if LGBT activists don’t think outreach to black voters is too touch, why was so little effort made when so much was at stake?
posted by Bobby on
There was a column on The Advocate explaining that we have to deal with issues of “white privilege,” and appoint more minorities to GLBT organizations.
Funny, since blacks are allowed to marry, serve in the military, and even benefit from affirmative action and hate crime laws (which don’t cover whites), then perhaps we should be talking about “black privilege.”
You can’t blame “the man” from keeping you down when you have him in the White House. (Can we still call it the White House? Or is that too offensive? Maybe The People’s House, yes, that sounds better, more inclusive. )
posted by Attmay on
Call it “The Red House.”
Funny, since blacks are allowed to marry, serve in the military, and even benefit from affirmative action and hate crime laws (which don’t cover whites), then perhaps we should be talking about “black privilege.”
Not to mention that apparently they can use the N-word but non-blacks cannot.
Of course, some gays were just too niggardly to give money to No on 8.
posted by Qat on
“You might think major outreach to black voters, making the case to oppose these anti-gay amendments, would have been a priority for LGBT political organizers this year. It wasn’t, perhaps because mostly white LGBT activists are told they have no business telling blacks how to vote, and they believe it.”
So you think that white LGBT activists should, in fact, tell blacks how to vote?
posted by Bobby on
“Not to mention that apparently they can use the N-word but non-blacks cannot.”
—Exactly!
“Of course, some gays were just too niggardly to give money to No on 8.”
—True, but beyond money, the Christians had better TV commercials.
It’s not enough to have Hollywood celebrities on our side, in fact, that might actually turn people against us. People are not gonna vote our way just because Ellen, Dicaprio, Susan Sarandon and a bunch of other Hollywood liberals tell them to. Hollywood liberals have nothing in common with average American. Our enemies, however, have a lot in common with Janet and Joe Taxpayer.
Either way, I think the church protests are a good idea as long as we don’t assault protesters! #1 rule of political manipulation is that you don’t make your enemy a victim. Gays getting beat up by Christians makes good TV. Gays taking a cross from and old lady and stomping it on the ground makes us look like enemies of religion, tradition, American values, and other things. Straight America needs to know that our goal is not turning this country into a liberal wacko land but in achieving full equality.
posted by Mike Airhart / TWO on
avee,
Good question — why have few primarily-white advocates, including IGF, reached out? Has anyone in this discussion reached out, besides Truth Wins Out?
Nothing is stopping you.
posted by avee on
Well, if we were only as highly evolved as you, Mr. Airhart. But your response does not excuse your accusing the blogger of telling "less than half truths" for noting that lack of outreach to blacks and suggesting politically correct sensitivities were behind it. Ah, well, at least you didn’t call me a liar.