I just wanted to mark the tragic death of 18-year-old Rutgers freshman Tyler Clementi, who committed suicide after his roommate, Dharun Rav, helped by fellow freshman Molly Wei, reportedly set up cameras in Celmenti’s dorm room to secretly transmit over the Internet a streaming video of Clementi engaged in sex with a male student, as the New York Post reports. The moral corruption of Clementi’s tormentors speaks for itself.
More. New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie calls the freshman’s death an “unspeakable tragedy” and says he can’t imagine how the two students accused of secretly filming Clementi can sleep at night.
In a related way, this story of a state of Michigan assistant attorney general using his blog to vilify and harass a gay University of Michigan student leader is another portrait of moral corruption.
Evil is real in this world. While government has a role in protecting citizens from violence, neither of these cases involved physical attacks. It is society—families and civilized communities—that have to teach young people that wanton cruelty is not “funny” and cool, a message they’re not getting from their adult-excluded tribal social networks. And it’s society—and, ultimately, the electorate—that has to say that bigotry and fanaticism by government officials is beyond the pale and won’t be tolerated.
More. For those following the Michigan story, updates here and here.
69 Comments for “Tragedy”
posted by Jorge on
I am not with you on that last. I think the thing in Michigan raises serious questions about the Assistant Attorney General’s ability to represent all citizens fairly, but you are leaning dangerously close to advocating that the government should discipline one of its employees for his exercise of a sincere political and religious creed. This is discrimination, and I believe such discrimination would raise even more serious doubts about the government’s ability to represent all citizens fairly and protect the right for all citizens to participate fully in the politics of their communities.
However I think the laws vary from state to state. There certainly isn’t any federal protection for this ADA.
posted by John on
Jorge, the guy is a public servant whose behavior at work and outside of work reflects upon the community-at-large. If Armstrong were a woman and Shirvell were behaving in the same manner with her, there would be a HUGE uproar about this as there should be in either case. He follows Armstrong around, follows his friends around, shows up at his house, etc. This is not acceptable behavior from a public servant regardless of his views.
posted by Jorge on
If it’s not acceptable behavior then I expect to hear about a restraining order or a lawsuit shortly. Otherwise, a public servant is permitted to participate politically and socially as a member of his community. Has any crime or civil offense been commited? If not, then the target’s gender or sexual orientation is irrelevant.
I’m not denying he’s on thin ice, but no crime has been committed. No slurs or hate speech are identified in the article–yes I’m going to stand on that: “radical homosexual agenda” and “homosexual lifestyle” are not certainly not nice things to say, but they’re not the f-word and they are fundamentally statements about behavior and identity politics, not sexual orientation. So given that this falls short of a clear black-and-white scandal, I think it’s wrong to advocate any kind of punitive action by the government against a public servant for no other reason than because he has forcefully expressed a socially or politically controversial view.
posted by John on
If this were a private citizen I’d still be creeped out by Shirvell’s behavior, but might be inclined to lean more towards your views on this. Yet we are speaking of an Assistant Attorney General. A public servant. It’s not his views which are at issue here but the manner in which he is expressing them, as well as the apparent obsessive behavior he is displaying towards Armstrong. If Armstrong were the head of the American Family Association and Shirvell was doing the same thing, but for “pro-gay” reasons, I’d say the exact same thing. He has crossed a line from legitimate private action into something very inappropriate for a public official. As for a restraining order, Armstrong filed for one on the the 15th and has a hearing before a judge next Monday. Yet you and I both know from the experiences of women dealing with obsessive men that it’s difficult to obtain such an order until it could be too late. I expect far better from our public officials and this kind of behavior is beyond the pale, leading to serious questions which even you raised about whether the man can do his job well even dealing with those he disagrees with. The man needs to go. Let him seek employment in the private sector and then he can protest teh gheys or whomever he likes to his heart’s content, within bounds of the law of course.
posted by Doug on
I’d bet a lot of money that if Armstrong was black and Shirvell was using the ‘N’ word and treating him in the same manner he would have been gone yesterday. There is no excuse for a public servant treating a citizen of this country in such a manner.
posted by Jorge on
I’d bet a lot of money that if Armstrong was black and Shirvell was using the ‘N’ word and treating him in the same manner he would have been gone yesterday. There is no excuse for a public servant treating a citizen of this country in such a manner.
You are absolutely right.
But as I have already explained, such a thing did not happen here.
posted by Jorge on
It’s not his views which are at issue here but the manner in which he is expressing them, as well as the apparent obsessive behavior he is displaying towards Armstrong. . . . As for a restraining order, Armstrong filed for one on the the 15th and has a hearing before a judge next Monday. Yet you and I both know from the experiences of women dealing with obsessive men that it’s difficult to obtain such an order until it could be too late.
Yeah, you need to present evidence and documentation. Kinda hard to remember to do that sometimes. I’m not changing my mind anytime soon, but I think if he gets the restraining order there would be some hard justification for disciplining the assistant AG.
posted by ludovico on
Re the Clementi case, is this really a gay issue? There are so many questions that need to be asked before rushing to create a new gay martyr: Did he have suicidal ideation before? Was he out to family and friends? Was he ashamed to be caught in an intimate act which was then broadcast to millions, or was he ashamed to be caught on tape w/a MAN? Would he have reacted the same way if he was w/a woman? Some gay blogs seem to be equating this tragedy w/the two recent suicides related directly to gay bashing/bullying.
posted by Bobby on
I have to defend the Assistant Attorney General, the gay he was attacking was a public servant, and his attacks were based on facts. He had screenshots of the gay guys facebook post where he bragged about sex and orgies.
I also know that some gays on the left can be very hateful people, and their their opponents really badly. Basically, you reap what you sow. Want to be treated like a jerk, act like one? Want to be respected by your enemies, then act like Tammy Bruce.
As for Clementi, I’m really angry he killed himself. He was very cute, my type. I’m not saying that what was done to him was right, but to kill yourself because of it? Hell, did that Oscar winning writer, Black, killed himself after perezhilton and others posted pictures of him barebacking?
Come on young gays, grow some fucking balls! This is 2010, we have gay characters on TV, our own gay TV station (LOGO), gay friendly workplaces, gay groups in college, gay fraternities, gay cruises, ways to meet gays online, and a general population that doesn’t care. There is no excuse to kill yourself when you’re young, hot, and in a nice Ivy League School.
Then again, perhaps the fat, ugly and old have more inner-strengh than some of these young twinkies.
posted by Amicus on
a general population that doesn’t care
—-
*snicker*
Do you have your sex tape online, Bobby? Honest, no one will care. I’m sure they’ll put it up for you, here, if you ask nicely.
posted by Bobby on
“Do you have your sex tape online, Bobby? Honest, no one will care. I’m sure they’ll put it up for you, here, if you ask nicely.”
—You don’t have to be an asshole. No, I don’t have a sex tape because I don’t have roommates that would bother to hide a camera and film me having sex. I’m also not attractive enough, so I doubt anyone would want to see me having sex.
With that said, we are living in an xtube culture, there are guys that film themselves having sex and put it online. Have you been to gaytube? How bout this one http://shareyourbfs.com/ ?
The porn industry is suffering in part because too many people are willing to the deed for free.
This Clementi guy overreacted. He’s no hero like Mathew Sheppard, he’s not even a real victim because no one that commits suicide is really a victim. He’s a coward, he has brought incredible pain to his family, he has wasted the opportunity to get an education at Rutgers (a school that’s almost impossible to get into, or even afford), he will be used to stereotype gays as weak.
posted by Jimmy on
“This Clementi guy overreacted. He’s no hero like Mathew Sheppard, he’s not even a real victim because no one that commits suicide is really a victim. He’s a coward, he has brought incredible pain to his family, he has wasted the opportunity to get an education at Rutgers (a school that’s almost impossible to get into, or even afford), he will be used to stereotype gays as weak.”
Bobby, that was one sickening diatribe of shame and blame. That shit has a way of coming back on you, in spades.
“You don’t have to be an asshole.”
Likewise, I’m sure.
posted by Jorge on
I admire Margaret Hoover for trying to tie case yesterday on the O’Reilly Factor to a silent epidemic of anti-gay bullying in this country and the a high suicide rate among gay youth.
Do I agree with her? Eh. I’ll let the old smart people handle this one. I’m just saddened. Most people who are broken by things like this do something dishonorable, then come back. This man didn’t.
posted by Amicus on
Jorge,
The only thing I can add is to agree with the GLSEN people that cite studies that show you can’t succeed by talking about bullying in general. One does have to mention “gay” or “lesbian”.
And this is a problem for the un-enlightened Christians (and others), who want the policy to be one of not saying much of anything to or about gay kids, either good or bad.
We know that the devil dwells in the vacuum that opens up, to speak metaphorically, in their language.
posted by Bobby on
“I admire Margaret Hoover for trying to tie case yesterday on the O’Reilly Factor to a silent epidemic of anti-gay bullying in this country and the a high suicide rate among gay youth.”
—True, but why isn’t anyone giving credit to Bill O’reilly? He wanted to punish the roommates the most. Of course, that is consistent with his anti-bullying stance which is well known by those who watch the factor.
“Bobby, that was one sickening diatribe of shame and blame. That shit has a way of coming back on you, in spades.”
—-Jimmy, the fact that you didn’t contradict me shows that deep down you agree. As for shame and blame, yes, I’ve dealt with it. I’ve had my moments of public humiliation, how would you like it if other boys grab your “tits” and suddenly you are terrified of ever taking off your shirt during gym class? Or perhaps you think is fine for another boy to take you to the bathroom and pull out his wiener because he thinks you’re gay and then you’re scared that other people might find out what you’re trying to hide from yourself? Or maybe it’s just hilarious that you can’t shower with the rest of the boys just because your penis doesn’t look big enough when it’s soft and they’re all ready to ridicule you for that? Or maybe you once were masturbating in what you thought was a private shower and some dude came with a video camera and didn’t even delete the tape after you confronted him? All that has happened to me, I know all too well the pain of bullying. There’s a reason I once brought a knife to school and on another occasion, I threw a desk against a wall, after the entire class threw papers at me.
The reason I don’t feel sorry for Clementi is because he wasn’t in high school anymore. If high school is hell, college is heaven. In college people are more open minded, the jocks mind their own business, geeks and gays find their own cliques and so does everyone else.
Clementi had no right to kill himself, what he did was a hateful act against his parents, his school and his gay community. In fact, I’m afraid his act might inspire copycats. So forgive me if I’m angry at him, because I know gays that have had it way worse than him and they haven’t killed themselves.
posted by Amicus on
The New Jersey Governor, former prosecutor, appointed by Bush, sends message to kids:
“What’s much more important on my mind is that, you know, those kinds of acts, that kind of conduct — I’d say to the young citizens of our state who are at Rutgers or any other higher education institutions, that kind of stuff is just unacceptable,” Christie said.
“You don’t know the feelings of the person on the receiving end of that. You can’t possibly know,” he said. “There might be some people who can take that type of treatment and deal with it. There might be others, as this young man obviously, who was much more greatly affected by it.”
posted by Jorge on
—True, but why isn’t anyone giving credit to Bill O’reilly? He wanted to punish the roommates the most. Of course, that is consistent with his anti-bullying stance which is well known by those who watch the factor.
I don’t doubt it, but there is still a need for the progressive perspective, regardless of which reason to condemn the act prevails.
The reason I don’t feel sorry for Clementi is because he wasn’t in high school anymore. If high school is hell, college is heaven. In college people are more open minded, the jocks mind their own business, geeks and gays find their own cliques and so does everyone else.
I do not agree with your conclusion.
With college comes the introduction of the tremendous pressures of freedom and individual decisionmaking. There has been a fairly recent increase in mental health disorders among college students. Many students do not adjust well to living away from their parents and rooming with others their age. Academic pressures, the struggle to fit in, and the temptations of sex, alcohol, drugs can destroy people their first year. There’s plenty of pressure for seniors, too: how to manage money, housing, searching for a job, searching for a life purpose if you haven’t found it already, and even greater academic pressures. There has been a rise of mental illness in college age students for the past few decades. Being gay doesn’t have much to do with it. You need a good foundation, fostered through good upbringing and support at home, and confidence in yourself, to succeed at college. To the extent that one is closeted and does not accept himself, one probably has a weak foundation.
posted by Bobby on
“I don’t doubt it, but there is still a need for the progressive perspective, regardless of which reason to condemn the act prevails.”
—Hold on, what is the progressive perspective? Speech codes? Sensitivity training? Our society has become too hypersensitive, everything and anything can be offensive, people can’t even write a blog without losing their jobs.
“To the extent that one is closeted and does not accept himself, one probably has a weak foundation.”
—Well, this kid wasn’t really closeted, I mean, he used to post pictures of himself having sex online, so how closeted was he I don’t know.
I also don’t like this talk about charging the pranksters with a hate crime. Humiliating smoeone is not a hate crime, beating someone to death because of who they are is a hate crime.
posted by Throbert McGee on
Bobby, you unbelievable fucking cretin, Clementi was in the FIRST MONTH of the FIRST SEMESTER of his FRESHMAN YEAR. He mostly likely hadn’t even begun worrying about his first round of midterm exams yet!
Furthermore, while I would agree that things tend to “get better” in college, you don’t do any gay high-school kids a favor by telling them that college is “heaven”, and thereby encouraging them to develop wildly overinflated hopes about what college will be like.
posted by Throbert McGee on
Ahem. That said, I do agree with the inclination of many authorities to treat the Clementi case under the general rubric of “cyber-bullying”, rather than calling it a “homophobic hate-crime.”
posted by Throbert McGee on
Really? A college undergrad serving on the Student Council is a “public servant” in anything close to the same sense that a state’s asst. AG is?
Look at this way, Bobby: if a liberal, openly gay asst. AG were attacking (off the clock) a conservative Student Council member who opposed Armstrong’s push for “trans housing”, would you still be defending the asst. AG’s free speech rights? Or would you tell the asst. AG to butt the hell out of undergraduate play-politics, and let the students fight this fight among themselves?
To be clear, if Shirvell were himself an undergrad and were speaking in his capacity as president of the Phyllis Schlafly Conservative Students Club, I would fully support his free speech rights to oppose Armstrong, even in offensive terms. But an adult serving in a relatively high-profile position as a public servant employed by the state should expect to be far more accountable than a college student is.
posted by Bobby on
“Bobby, you unbelievable fucking cretin,”
— I know, I’m just so delicious.
“Clementi was in the FIRST MONTH of the FIRST SEMESTER of his FRESHMAN YEAR. He mostly likely hadn’t even begun worrying about his first round of midterm exams yet!”
—-So what? Does that excuse his suicide? If he was strong enough to survive high school he had no excuse to off himself in college.
“Furthermore, while I would agree that things tend to “get better” in college, you don’t do any gay high-school kids a favor by telling them that college is “heaven”, and thereby encouraging them to develop wildly overinflated hopes about what college will be like.”
—Come on, our entertainment industry itself exaggerates the college experience. Ask any high school student checking out the Princeton Review to find the #1 party school. For some kids college is a $20k to $50k a year vacation. I have a cousin who did his MBA in Harvard, he was traveling all the time. Japan, Russia, China, you name it! And don’t even get me started on the lucky kids who can afford “Semester at Sea.” Maybe Tyler was just nuts, isn’t that a possibility? He didn’t have to kill himself, he could have go to the school’s psychologist and have the proper channels fix this mess.
posted by Bobby on
“Really? A college undergrad serving on the Student Council is a “public servant” in anything close to the same sense that a state’s asst. AG is?”
—Maybe “public figure” is the right word. U. Mich has 50,000 students, if you’re running for the Student Council you are a public figure.
“Look at this way, Bobby: if a liberal, openly gay asst. AG were attacking (off the clock) a conservative Student Council member who opposed Armstrong’s push for “trans housing”, would you still be defending the asst. AG’s free speech rights? Or would you tell the asst. AG to butt the hell out of undergraduate play-politics, and let the students fight this fight among themselves?”
—I would be defending the first amendment as I always do, I would also remember that “private” universities like U. Mich often receive public dollars, including those from the state of Michigan. As for conservatives getting attacked, that’s a common occurence, Ann Coulter is lucky to get a speaking engagement in any campus, and then she has to pay for her own security because progressives want to show her just how peaceful they are.
“To be clear, if Shirvell were himself an undergrad and were speaking in his capacity as president of the Phyllis Schlafly Conservative Students Club, I would fully support his free speech rights to oppose Armstrong, even in offensive terms. But an adult serving in a relatively high-profile position as a public servant employed by the state should expect to be far more accountable than a college student is.”
—I see what you mean, you draw a distinction between speech between college students and speech between a government employee and a college students. However, the First Amendment does not draw such distinctions.
If you’re going to do something controversial in public then people have the right to speak against it.
posted by Throbert McGee on
I agree that since we know very little about Tyler’s prior mental state, it’s inappropriate to make him some kind of “gay martyr” or to assume that his suicide was specifically a response to “homophobia.” But for the same reason — that we know so little about his history — it’s totally inappropriate to make character attacks on him as some sort of weakling who got weeded out by natural selection.
For all YOU know, the kid was on medication for depression, but his meds had recently been changed, and his brain’s reaction to the new prescription was a significant factor in his suicide. (Or, maybe he was trying to self-medicate with alcohol — which wouldn’t be out of the norm for a new college freshman — and the booze reacted with his prescription meds in a really bad way.)
There are, in short, other explanations besides “he just couldn’t hack it.”
posted by John on
Irrelevant. This doesn’t excuse Shirvell’s behavior especially while serving as a public official.
Irrelevant. I would welcome Shirvell to test this in court because the First Amendment doesn’t apply in this case. Just as he could legally lose his job as a public official for racist, anti-religious, sexist, or other such offensive behavior, the Constitution also doesn’t guarantee his employment because of his stalking a college student and friends he disagreed with.
I’d like to see Shirvell fired and dare him to take this to court.
posted by Throbert McGee on
By the way, I’m surprised that no one has brought up the apparent Love Triangle in the Armstrong/Shirvell case — on the latter’s stalker-blog, the latter made the very specific accusation that Armstrong had “seduced a formerly conservative Christian” into the “homosexual lifestyle.”
Reading between the lines, I would surmise that Shirvell had been lusting after another deeply closeted young man — whose untainted closetedness made him “safe” boyfriend material for Shirvell — but this young man’s public involvement with Armstrong left him permanently unsuitable for Shirvell.
So he resents Armstrong for having “invaded” the very, very small dating pool of men that Shirvell chooses to fish in (i.e., 20-something UM-Ann Arbor students/alums who identify as Christian conservatives and are so deep in the closet that they’re in Narnia).
posted by Jimmy on
I think your instincts are on the mark, Throbert.
“Christian conservatives and are so deep in the closet that they’re in Narnia”
Reminds me of a funny line from the Brit comedy sitcom, “Gimmie Gimmie Gimmie”
posted by BobN on
Bobby, you unbelievable fucking cretin
Hear, hear!
At least have the decency to shut the fuck up about it, Bobby, until the whole story comes out. Then you can be as
deliciousodious as you want.posted by Throbert McGee on
By the way, has anyone else been humming “Ode to Billy Joe” after hearing about Tyler Clementi’s suicide?
In the original Bobbie Gentry song, it’s never made clear why “Billie Joe McAllister jumped off the Tallahatchie Bridge” — but the 1976 movie (with Robby Benson in the title role) puts forth the explanation that Billy Joe was conflicted over his homosexuality.
posted by Throbert McGee on
And as the song says, “Billy Joe never had a lick of sense — pass the biscuits, please”.
posted by Bobby on
“By the way, I’m surprised that no one has brought up the apparent Love Triangle in the Armstrong/Shirvell case — on the latter’s stalker-blog, the latter made the very specific accusation that Armstrong had “seduced a formerly conservative Christian” into the “homosexual lifestyle.” ”
—This isn’t surprising, some Christians do believe that gays are recruited, Shirvell obviously believes that, to imply that he’s a closeted homosexual without any evidence is quite disgusting. He’s a fanatic and he is silly, nothing more. He shouldn’t have been fired anymore than those jerks who put offensive bumperstickers. Moreover, government employees outside the military are supposed to have first amendment protections.
Back to Tyler,
“I agree that since we know very little about Tyler’s prior mental state, it’s inappropriate to make him some kind of “gay martyr” or to assume that his suicide was specifically a response to “homophobia.” But for the same reason — that we know so little about his history — it’s totally inappropriate to make character attacks on him as some sort of weakling who got weeded out by natural selection.”
—On advocate.com some people want Tyler’s roommates to be charged with homicide. Aren’t you scared that people are forgetting what it means to live in a free country? Was Tyler persecuted after that video of him having sex was posted online? Did he suffer harassment because of it? I’m sorry but he was a weakling, suicide is a cowardly act, there are gays in Iran, Uganda and Saudi Arabia that don’t kill themselves and if they do they do not advertise their suicides on facebook.
“For all YOU know, the kid was on medication for depression, but his meds had recently been changed, and his brain’s reaction to the new prescription was a significant factor in his suicide. (Or, maybe he was trying to self-medicate with alcohol — which wouldn’t be out of the norm for a new college freshman — and the booze reacted with his prescription meds in a really bad way.)”
—I hope you’re wrong, the last thing we need is the parents to sue Prozac or Wellbutrin or whatever the hell he was taking. Tell me, when are we going to held people responsible for their own actions?
“There are, in short, other explanations besides “he just couldn’t hack it.”
—Or maybe some people are looking for additional explanations because the reality is too embarrassing.
posted by Jorge on
—Hold on, what is the progressive perspective? Speech codes? Sensitivity training? Our society has become too hypersensitive, everything and anything can be offensive, people can’t even write a blog without losing their jobs.
The progressive perspective, as I see it, advocates treating each individual person with dignity and calling attention to patterns of injustice and unfairness.
I think you are in desperate need of some moderation.
Irrelevant. I would welcome Shirvell to test this in court because the First Amendment doesn’t apply in this case.
Just for the record, this is one case where I don’t think the US Constitution goes far enough. But that’s what state laws are for.
posted by Throbert McGee on
Well, you have a point there, Bobby — it’s quite possible that Clementi deserves no more sympathy than, say, the overrated Kurt Cobain.
But precisely because Clementi’s suicide seems to have been so stupid, irrational, and cowardly, one should give the recently deceased some minimal benefit of the doubt and assume that he was “not guilty by reason of temporary insanity.”
posted by Amicus on
It is possible to inflict enough emotional pain that someone – anyone – will kill themselves (yes, you too, Bobby). For a hellish view of such, see the movie “Bent” (1997), for example.
The notion that we have no responsibility for our words – or deeds – especially if it “results” in suicide, which is by some people’s definition cowardly, I find to be an a-religious teaching. (“cowardly” is probably a poor description, too).
Of course, we believe in free speech, but that is not a Christian belief, is it? Which is why it is always weird when I see rightwing, so-called Christian legal groups who are dedicated to taking up first amendment cases. I mean I understand their anxiety, but it is just the oddest thing.
To pick just one set of scriptures, Christ taught: “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you” (Matt 5:44)
That is hardly a ringing to the rafters endorsement of “free speech”.
posted by Jorge on
Just for the record, this is one case where I don’t think the US Constitution goes far enough.
I take that back. I didn’t realize the First Amendment does protect the political speech of public employees. I thought there was no protection based on politics because anti-discrimination law offers no protection.
But the Supreme Court has dealt with the issue. The two landmark Supreme Court decisions were Elrod v. Burns (1976) and Brantei v. Finkel (1980). From Stevens’ (take that, Bobby!) majority opinion:
“The question presented is whether the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution protect an assistant public defender who is satisfactorily performing his job from discharge solely because of his political beliefs.”
“If the First Amendment protects a public employee from discharge based on what he has said, it must also protect him from discharge based on what he believes.”
The second to article linked to is highly deceptive in how it identifies Supreme Court cases that limit the First Amendment protections. It makes a big deal of a case that is irrelevant: a public servant speaking in his official capacity. And I wish they had cited the case in question instead of me spending a half hour digging it up. It’s Garcetti v. Ceballos. “The question presented by the instant case is whether the First Amendment protects a government employee from discipline based on speech made pursuant to the employee’s official duties.”
In summary, the rule is that if an employee speaks as a citizen on a matter of public concern, it may be protected under the First Amendment. Any restrictions a government entity imposes on such speech “must be directed at speech that has some potential to affect the entity’s operations.”
I was once asked for my opinion on the Arizona law by a reporter. I declined because I was on duty. If I had been on lunch, I would have been in the clear. Anyway, so the general principle I want to be law, actually is law.
posted by Jorge on
“Second to article” should read “second to last article”
posted by John on
Again, I welcome Shirvell to test this case in court because the First Amendment doesn’t apply here – Elrod & Brantei notwithstanding.
Fire Shirvell and let’s start the journey up to SCOTUS.
posted by Bobby on
“The progressive perspective, as I see it, advocates treating each individual person with dignity and calling attention to patterns of injustice and unfairness.”
—That has not been my experience dealing with progressives. The moment your perspective differs from the progressive perspective you’re accused of being a racist, Islamophobe, homophobe, bigot, sexist, etc.
“I think you are in desperate need of some moderation.”
—By whom? By the editor of this blog? I know I can’t post on advocate.com because somehow the system always rejects my IP. That’s progressive tolerance for you.
“It is possible to inflict enough emotional pain that someone – anyone – will kill themselves (yes, you too, Bobby). For a hellish view of such, see the movie “Bent” (1997), for example.”
—I saw Bent, the gay guy commits suicide after his lover is killed by the nazis, it had nothing to do with words. I don’t doubt that words hurt, but that’s not the case of Clementi, he did not kill himself over words.
“The notion that we have no responsibility for our words – or deeds – especially if it “results” in suicide, which is by some people’s definition cowardly, I find to be an a-religious teaching. (“cowardly” is probably a poor description, too).”
—So should the makers of Natural Born Killers be sued because two teenagers decided to go on a killing spree after watching the movie several times? Should the writer of The Turner Diaries be sued because Timothy McVeigh read that?
“Of course, we believe in free speech, but that is not a Christian belief, is it? Which is why it is always weird when I see rightwing, so-called Christian legal groups who are dedicated to taking up first amendment cases. I mean I understand their anxiety, but it is just the oddest thing.”
—Christians have as much right to fight for their freedoms just like everybody else. The crazy liberals seem to think that if you’re white, straight, and Christian you’re a second class citizen. I’m sick of that mentality, MLK jr. fought for EQUAL RIGHTS, not special rights, not economic justice, not social justice, not affirmative action, not African History Month, not any of the usual left-wing bullshit. If MLK was alive he’d be pissed off at the Obama administration for not prosecuting the Black Panther for voter intimidation. Why? Because he was a man of principle, the usual leftists are not.
“To pick just one set of scriptures, Christ taught: “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you” (Matt 5:44)
That is hardly a ringing to the rafters endorsement of “free speech”.”
—Actually, that embodies the spirit of free speech. IF you really love your enemies you’re not going to stop them from speaking, you will fight for their rights even if you hate what they do.
Either way, the gay community would be better off ignoring Clementi. I don’t want to see a play or a movie dedicated to Clementi, he isn’t worthy of such honor. I’d rather honor gays who suffer discrimination and keep fighting backs, like the ones who get kicked out of the military and sue the government, or the ones who get disowned, move to a new town and strike it rich.
Suicide is something shameful, in Catholic tradition you can’t even bury a suicide “victim” in consecrated ground. Forgive me if I don’t feel sorry for Clementi, but his actions have brought shame to the gay community. He has confirmed the stereotype that we are weak, mentally unstable and self-destructive. So don’t tell me that because he’s gay I have to stand with him, Bernie Maddoff is Jewish and I don’t see the Jewish community standing for him.
posted by Jimmy on
“Forgive me if I don’t feel sorry for Clementi, but his actions have brought shame to the gay community. He has confirmed the stereotype that we are weak, mentally unstable and self-destructive. So don’t tell me that because he’s gay I have to stand with him”
We are not the ones you need to ask for forgiveness, Bobby. You do need to ask Someone else for it.
It’s pretty small and low to spew that kind of bile, making a bad situation worse, on a Sunday even, Mr. Hardguy. You suck.
posted by Bobby on
“We are not the ones you need to ask for forgiveness, Bobby. You do need to ask Someone else for it. It’s pretty small and low to spew that kind of bile, making a bad situation worse, on a Sunday even, Mr. Hardguy. You suck.”
—Jimmy, if I create $20,000 in credit card debt because I’m bored and my life is empty, who do you blame? It’s the same with suicide, specially a suicide brought on not by bullying but by a stupid prank. I watch Tosh.0, you think Clementi is the only kid getting humiliated on xtube, youtube, etc? There’s plenty of suffering to go around.
posted by Jorge on
Moderation as in moving toward the center, Bobby.
posted by Jorge on
Moderation as in moving toward the center, Bobby.
posted by Amicus on
Actually, Bobby, the Catholic teaching on suicide is less about cowardice and more about arrogance/abrogation.
Given that we know and that it is obvious that “it is possible to inflict enough emotional pain that someone – anyone – will kill themselves”, it does seem another of those Catholic teachings that I’ll call a “leaning” teaching. By that, I mean it’s not really “true” or subtle enough to capture the whole truth, but nevertheless gets adopted as domga, because is it useful to “lean” that way.
I don’t think the scriptural Christian teachings on what to do about persecution include much of _anything like_ we see coming from groups who say they feel set upon. (There is nothing I see in “bless them that curse you”, for instance, that suggests fighting in court for the right of those people to curse you or giving money to legal funds to do so or erecting a secular democracy to make it so…)
As for the rest, I don’t know you well enough to say anything, so I’ll pass.
posted by Bobby on
If moderation is a good thing then tell your president to move to the center instead of veering even more to the left, moving on.
“Actually, Bobby, the Catholic teaching on suicide is less about cowardice and more about arrogance/abrogation.”
—True, but why does someone commit suicide in the first place? Usually it’s because they’re afraid to go on living. I can understand suicide if you have a terminal disease, if being alive was worst than being dead. But is that the case with Tyler? Is being filmed having sex the worst thing that can happen? I don’t think so. Look at governor Spitzer and the former gay governor of New Jersey, they both suffered humiliation yet now Spitzer has his own show on CNN. Or what about Billy Clinton? I don’t see that cigar-using perv killing himself, do you?
“There is nothing I see in “bless them that curse you”, for instance, that suggests fighting in court for the right of those people to curse you or giving money to legal funds to do so or erecting a secular democracy to make it so…”
—I’m afraid you follow a liberal version of Christianity. You forget that the same Jesus who preached peace was the same Jesus who told his apostles that it was better to have to sell your clothes to buy a sword than not to have a sword. This is the same Jesus that took out a whip and hit the temple merchants. So basically, yes, sometimes you put out your other cheek, but afterward you’re supposed to fight back.
Christians don’t have to be treated like second-class citizens in this country, they don’t have to hide, they don’t have to apologize for wanting opening prayers before congress sessions, teaching intelligent design with evolution, protesting abortion clinics, and participating in politics.
After all, if the left didn’t want religion in politics then Nancy Pelosi shouldn’t be telling the Catholic Church to support the immigration bill and Martin Luther King, Jr. had no business fighting for civil rights. Read the book “Sacred Fire,” and you’ll understand the Christian roots of this great nation.
posted by BobN on
If only we had a constitutional amendment protecting freedom of religion, then those poor Christian children would stop killing themselves.
Mind you, for some, there’s little we can do. If they’re growing up in a family of true bigots, that “Mom, Dad… I think I might be a Christian” will always be the kiss of death.
posted by Amicus on
True, but why does someone commit suicide in the first place?
—-
More emotional pain than they can bear, is one set of circumstances.
I’m afraid you follow a liberal version of Christianity.
—–
LOL. I welcome your attempt to portray the history of the Church in the West, say, as an exemplar of ‘freedom of speech’ or even fighting for freedom of speech. (God wants ‘Bobbys’, too, so we’ll all be here with a liftraft for you, so don’t worry about that.)
You do seem to enjoy putting everything into Left-Right rhetoric, but this is a weakness, not a strength.
posted by Jimmy on
“I’m afraid you follow a liberal version of Christianity.”
As opposed to the old shame and blame, judgement ever upon their lips, holier than thou, modern-day Pharissees-brand of Christianity you practice, Bobby?
Shove it!
posted by Amicus on
Naylor, an artist, is reportedly doing a sculpture with the DVD’s “returned” in Minnesota.
Free speech …
http://gayspirituality.typepad.com/blog/2010/10/church-fires-artist-for-turning-anti-gay-dvds-into-sculpture.html
posted by Bobby on
“As opposed to the old shame and blame, judgement ever upon their lips, holier than thou, modern-day Pharissees-brand of Christianity you practice, Bobby? ”
—Right, like progressives don’t practice shame and guilt, oh wait, they do! Try being fat and a smoker and see how much shame and guilt they inflict on you.
Besides, sometimes shame and guilt is a good thing. If more gays had shame you wouldn’t see embarrassing things like the Folsom Street Fair.
What Clementi did was completely shameful, it was an attack on his parents, his family, his name, the school, etc. How can the person who commits suicide be called a victim when he brings so much pain to his family? Imagine the guilt and shame his parents must be feeling, imagine having the entire world judge your parenting skills just because you took your life over a sex video.
posted by Amicus on
What Clementi did was completely shameful…
—-
I don’t know that. You don’t know that. To judge what we don’t know is wrong.
All I can observe is that it is unlikely he made some flip decision, because he had bad Taco Bell after he made it to orchestra rehearsal, or whatever.
His brain must have been on fire. To take pills or something, is one thing. To jump off a place like the GW bridge – that is no small or easy thing.
posted by Bobby on
“I don’t know that. You don’t know that. To judge what we don’t know is wrong. ”
—Suicide is wrong, you know that. Dude, he wrote “jumping of the GW bridge. Sorry.” So you know this was totally premeditated.
“His brain must have been on fire. To take pills or something, is one thing. To jump off a place like the GW bridge – that is no small or easy thing.”
—Clementi doesn’t look like the type who takes pills, he plays the violin for God’s sakes. He was probably one of those sweet and uber-sensitive gay drama queens.
posted by Amicus on
Bobby, Is a heart attack “wrong”? If you get hysterical blindness is it “wrong”? The mind is a breakable thing, just like the body.
I have no need or desire to find out what “type” Tyler was, so I can judge that, either.
He didn’t leave a note, so we don’t know why his mind was on fire, at that time. For all you or I know, he could have been thinking about his parents, about the shame he imagined he just brought them by some video clip he thought they would have to see, if he complained (i.e. retaliation by his roommate).
To me, the only thing that is interesting / fascinating in the facebook note he left is the word “sorry”. If you think about that, there is a world in that word. He didn’t write, “F U ALL!”, did he?
posted by Jorge on
If moderation is a good thing then tell your president to move to the center instead of veering even more to the left, moving on.
I am not talking to your president. I am talking to you.
posted by Bobby on
“He didn’t leave a note, so we don’t know why his mind was on fire, at that time. For all you or I know, he could have been thinking about his parents, about the shame he imagined he just brought them by some video clip he thought they would have to see, if he complained (i.e. retaliation by his roommate).”
—-Why would he feel that level of shame? He wasn’t married, he didn’t have kids. Think about it, people who get caught having sex in public parks don’t often kill themselves. He wasn’t even one of those fundamentalist Christians that live a double life, he didn’t even face excommunication.
I’m tired of making excuses for gays who do bad things, or how every problem gays have is because of homophobia as in, “Oh, he has unsafe sex, gee, that’s homophobia.”
The pervasive progressive mentality in the gay community has led many gays to abandon any concept of personal responsibility. It’s almost like watching the American Idol audition, you have the contestants that have spent their whole lives singing, taking music classes, performing, and then you have those who can’t sing, yet audition for a chance to be on TV.
If Clementi was at Rutgers that meant his SAT scores, essay, and GPA must have been excellent. So if he could work hard at that I’m sure he could have put a little effort into not killing himself over a sex video.
“To me, the only thing that is interesting / fascinating in the facebook note he left is the word “sorry”. If you think about that, there is a world in that word. He didn’t write, “F U ALL!”, did he?”
—Maybe a part of him felt guilty about killing himself and the pain he was going to bring, perhaps he was sorry about that.
posted by Amicus on
Wow, I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a spirited defense of making the world safe for homophobia by calling all its well known and documented effects “excuses”. Nor do I think I’ve ever seen a _conservative_ defense of making and broadcasting your own sex tape at the formative age 18 in your first semester of college, of how non humiliating and nothing-to-matter that really *should* be.
If this is the lecture that conservatism has for progressives, it’s no wonder so many find it … dead end.
The standard-issue rant on personal responsibility is mostly lost on me as a left-right issue. I just know too many people who sadly got taught this stuff in spades, only to end up broken, as life intruded on their rigid, unforgiving, uncalibrated stance. We are all sinners and, soon enough, we seek forgiveness, _including from ourselves_, as it is given…
I don’t see anything in his SAT scores or hard work or native intelligence that changes the assessment one way or the other that we don’t know. For all I know, all those things were pressure, NOT assistance, internally something he had to live up to. Who knows? No one does. It’s hard trying to, you know, play the Brahms violin concerto to garner the respect, love, and admiration of your peers while all they are thinking about is your freshman year fuck tape.
Last, I can have no opinion, no judgment about Tyler’s actions; yet, I can still think that suicide is illogical or not something to encourage as a valid option or even contrariwise, that is it sometimes justified. The two can be independent.
posted by Debrah on
It should be noted, (and I attempted to leave the links in a comment from an article at Slate on the Clementi case under Link’s post, but it has yet to be published)……
…….that Clementi was not the isolated and weak guy that many in the media and beyond have tried to portray.
Those links showed his exchanges with his friends and that he was a part of a supportive social network.
I also left a link to an article where a 20-something woman killed herself because her ex-boyfriend published nude photos of her.
That story will not receive the same attention because there are no activists who will use it as a blanket statement for “a cause”.
Most professionals in the field of psychiatry will concur with some of Bobby’s statements on the issue.
If anyone chooses to commit suicide, they are carrying baggage that extends far beyond their current challenges.
posted by Jimmy on
“If anyone chooses to commit suicide, they are carrying baggage that extends far beyond their current challenges.”
The point is, when someone sets out to harass and humiliate some else, as these two sh*theads did in this case, the repercussions of that evil, and the damage it can do, are unknowable. Different people have different mental states and we cannot peer into the hearts and minds of others. There is too much that is unknowable. Clementi’s harassers should be the ones shamed and blamed, yet there exists in the conservative consciousness a proclivity for boys-will-be-boys attitudes that suggests a disgust with the weaker ones among us, and thus the dismissive attitudes about bullying and harassment. These two intended to do harm, and they got what they wanted.
posted by Bobby on
“That story will not receive the same attention because there are no activists who will use it as a blanket statement for “a cause”.”
—Great point, I would also like to add that he’s not good for our cause.
“Most professionals in the field of psychiatry will concur with some of Bobby’s statements on the issue.”
—Thanks. I appreciate that.
“Clementi’s harassers”
—Don’t call them harassers, don’t insult actual victims of harassment. Did those roommates tell Clementi “hey queer boy, blow me”? Did they call him an f-g? Did they punch him? Did they do the kind of things bullies do? No. I have experienced real harassment in my life, Clementi got filmed having sex. There is a difference.
They simply invaded his privacy, it was a prank, no different than someone coming to your room while you’re having sex and taking a picture. If you want to experience real harassment try joining a fraternity and experiencing hell week.
“yet there exists in the conservative consciousness a proclivity for boys-will-be-boys attitudes that suggests a disgust with the weaker ones among us, and thus the dismissive attitudes about bullying and harassment. ”
—I agree with that. If I had a son I would send him to a military boarding school just so he can learn to stand up to bullies.
Kids are way too sensitive nowadays, how the hell are we supposed to teach them strength if we raised them to be feminized pacifists?
There has never been a better time in history for gays, the level of acceptance we’re experiencing today is unprecedented. I mean, when Rush Limbaugh invites Elton John to perform at his wedding, when Ann Coulter performs at Homocon and tells the Worldnetdaily people to go to hell, when conservatives draw a distinctions between Folsom Street Fair gays and their gay friends, neighbors acquaintances, you know that things have changed.
Thus Clementi’s death is not due to non-existent homophobia at Rutgers, is not due to DOMA, it’s not due to DADT, it’s not due to any external factor other than his own inner weakness.
And rather than honor him as a victim and a martyr which he isn’t, I’d rather say “he’s the exception, most of us are not like him.”
posted by Debrah on
Jimmy–
Of course the two were out to harass Clementi.
Were you ever in a dorm with other people at university? That is the norm; however, I would push for jail time for anyone who did what these two did to invade the privacy of someone in such a way.
Men have been doing this kind of thing to women forever.
I went to school with a guy—(a football star who went on to the pros as well as a load of NBA-bound basketball players)—who taped himself having sex with his girlfriend….complete with the audio moans and screams of her orgasms. He played it for a house-full of friends at a party over and over again.
And again.
What I’m saying is that kind of thing she had to live with and she didn’t choose to kill herself.
Moreover, there has been dialogue on some websites that Clementi’s lover was an older guy and that was another emotional issue (?)
Who knows?
The links I provided showed some of Clementi’s social networking chats. He actually had a good relationship with his roommate. It wasn’t the sinister environment that gays want to portray all over the blogosphere.
However, that prank went beyond the pale.
I’d like to compliment David Link on his posts occasionally; however, by choosing to “moderate” comments he doesn’t like and play the Leftist dictator on this blog, he represents for some of us what is wrong with the gay agenda.
Thank G/d for people like Jonathan Rauch.
posted by BobN on
The links I provided showed some of Clementi’s social networking chats. He actually had a good relationship with his roommate. It wasn’t the sinister environment that gays want to portray all over the blogosphere.
Most of gay sites I’ve seen with links to the Gawker screenshots talk about how likely it seems from the chats and the circumstances that something else was going on and that the video of him kissing another guy wasn’t what drove him to suicide.
posted by Debrah on
“Most of gay sites I’ve seen with links to the Gawker screenshots talk about how likely it seems from the chats and the circumstances that something else was going on and that the video of him kissing another guy wasn’t what drove him to suicide.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Interesting, BobN.
It would be a constructive development for all if the true story is told.
And yes, given that there was no previous atmosphere of bashing, it would seem that other things were going on with Clementi.
Again, I would push for jail time for the two who pulled such a prank.
This should be the case for all people who choose to go that far….even when there isn’t malice involved.
posted by BobN on
It would be a constructive development for all if the true story is told.
This may one of the few cases where our tabloid media and adversarial justice system both contribute in their own ways to exposing what really happened. OR the media will move on, as it always does, and the justice system will go for the path of least resistance, plea bargains and a push to close the case with as little examination as possible.
posted by Amicus on
We’ve already seen what a world of survival of the fittest looks like, and we’ve already seen what happens in a societies that define away “victim”.
It’s been rejected. Besides, it doesn’t make sense. If society becomes softer, why would kids need to “toughen up”?
Tyler was filmed, TWICE, almost assuredly because he was gay, not because of some standard-issue, first 4-wks roommate “prank”. Even if the first time was somehow dismissed (I don’t think it meets the definition of “prank”), the second time was malice aforethought. I would hardly be surprising to see a prosecutor find an easy case to make for bias.
There is no indication that low-brow military academy builds character or moral character any better than anywhere else. Indeed, it can lead to making people weak, people who come to rely on tribe, coalition, or posse and essentially become amoral, w/r/t almost anyone outside their “group”. It can also create a bunch of really horrible “misfits” within the military itself.
posted by Amicus on
OR the media will move on..
—-
ha! that we should be so lucky…
I can see it now, “Tonight on The Factor, the inside story of Tyler Clementi, what the radical gay left isn’t telling you”, complete with the suggesting that, even if this case is subtle, you can’t believe any of the others.
He’s going to be skewered, just like Matthew Shepherd, because any true conterfactual that indicts ‘the system’ is really bad for those who believe by political creed, not evidence, that only individual failure can obtain in America.
The case of Lawrence King, of course, got dropped on the Right, fairly quickly, except for a shrill yell at the Left for purportedly asking of a kid to do exactly what Bobby above suggests a kid should be doing, i.e. toughen up and stand up for himself. Why?
Because in that case the victim of homophobia was so obviously the guy holding the gun in his hand, as much as the guy he shot.
posted by Amicus on
The facts, before they get obscured in the coming circus:
“The face and experience of GLBTQ college students is dramatically different than 10—or even 5—years ago, the authors of this latest Princeton Guide argue. And the wealth of resources they offer appears to prove the point. At the same time, however, they admit that there are still challenges to being out in college, and, indeed, a recurring theme is the need for prudence in an environment that can still turn hostile—and even dangerous. “
posted by Bobby on
“There is no indication that low-brow military academy builds character or moral character any better than anywhere else. Indeed, it can lead to making people weak, people who come to rely on tribe, coalition, or posse and essentially become amoral, w/r/t almost anyone outside their “group”. It can also create a bunch of really horrible “misfits” within the military itself.”
—-And you know that from experience? I have met people from the military, I have watched documentaries about the military, West Point, etc. Those people have abilities in team work, leadership and discipline that are not easy to develop by your typical civilian, including me.
Of course, you sound like the typical liberal parent that lets his kid do whatever he wants and then wonders why is your kid doing drugs, getting Mary Lou pregnant, gang-banging or becoming a Muslim terrorist.
Kids need structure, they need role models, I’d rather have my kids learn from a Colin Powell than from some liberal public school professor that’s gonna teach him that Bush was the devil and Obama is God.
posted by Amicus on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDbOK_fDu9Y
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Considering that gays and lesbians openly support and endorse telling people to commit suicide, one has to wonder who they think they’re fooling.
Gay liberals like Mike Rogers are constantly trying to make sex tapes of others and put them on the internet to shame and humiliate other people. Since the gay and lesbian community endorses and supports this behavior, again, pure hypocrisy for them to criticize it.
Again, this is nothing more than a desperate group of activists trying to find a body it can claim as its “martyr”. If this individual had been a gay conservative or someone they didn’t like politically, they would have been praising the “outing” and cheering on the suicide, just as they were hoping Ken Mehlman would do.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
And also, gays and lesbians openly support bullying and harm to children — in fact, gays and lesbians on sites such as JoeMyGod that are all apocalyptic over this death are openly praying for children to die when they don’t like their parents.