Not all LGBT Americans are celebrating the newly gained freedom to marry in California, it seems. Writing over at The Advocte, IGF contributing author James Kirchick takes aim at a particularly insipid example of politically correct victimization posturing, the claim that "racist" white gays are forcing marriage on same-gender loving African Americans.
Gay White Racism Strikes Again
ADVERTISEMENT
32 Comments for “Gay White Racism Strikes Again”
posted by bls on
Don’t be shocked. Episcopalians hear this all the time these days, because we object to Peter Akinola in his attempt to jail gay Nigerians.
We’re “racist” because of this, you see.
posted by The Gay Species on
Merritt gives credit to this crap? Kirchick and PlanetOut have long been out of touch.
posted by Chris Holden on
Jasmyne Cannick has always seemed to have a cogent take on who and what we are as a society. This is disappointing, indeed.
posted by Regan DuCasse on
I’ve met Jasmine on several occasions and liked her. But she’s losing focus and I haven’t agreed with anything she’s said lately. She’s got notoriety, but not in a good way.
posted by Richard on
I really do not think it is a racial division, in terms of how the LGBYT community responds to our prioritizes gay marriage.
It is more directly an issue of class, which does have some connections to race.
LGBT people, that I know, who are older, and part of a professional, upper middle class tend to want to settle down and marry.
Younger LGBT people not so much, just because of where they are in life. Working class and lower middle class LGBT people are often focused on other issues in their daily lives.
I know a upper middle class interracial couple that cannot wait to get married and plently of gay white men and women who are too foucsed on the current economy or active duty overseas to fret much about marriage.
posted by Jorge on
I don’t think Cannick’s article is that insipid. If she feels personally more fulfillment in some causes than others, more power to her. In a country as diverse as ours, one could feel personally detached from just about any good institution or cause but that doesn’t mean you are selfish or a leecher. Any occupation that uses guns rounds out my list of things that are distasteful and socially harmful, but things go perfectly fine without me in them. I just find another way.
It’s her notion that everything unpleasant to her as a black person is racist that I do not respect.
Where I do agree with her is that there is little difference between mainstream and white culture in this country. Cultures of other races diverge from the mainstream in ways that it is disrespectful to ignore. The article itself was provacative, raised some good questions, and most importantly she was very transparent about where she was coming from. That Kirchick doesn’t get why her statements are self-evident merely shows that he is not in the same world as the author is. That’s the point.
posted by David Skidmore on
Comments from Cannick seem beyond bizarre. Apart from anything else, I for one am concerned about the future of same-sex marriage in California, the homophobia of religious fundamentalists AND high food and petrol prices. The first two issues I look at from the perspective of a gay man, the second two from the perspective of someone who has to live in today’s economy. It is absolutely ridiculous to think that economic issues should somehow cancel out consideration of gay human rights issues. As for the racism accusation, if Cannick or someone who agrees with her can explain it to me I’d be most gratified. As it is, I can’t get my head around it.
posted by Richard on
Economic issues are easy to dismiss if you happen to be a part of the upper income bracket, and some people like to pretend that all gay people are.
If you worried about scrapping together enough money for food, water and shelter you just might not really have time to think about getting married.
posted by David Skidmore on
I’m reminded of the old cliche about being able to walk and chew gum at the same time. Most gay people are not in the higher income brackets and do have to worry about food prices, high rents or mortgages and how to pay bills. But that doesn’t mean those of us who are low-income earners can’t support same-sex marriage even if it just means sending a message of support to our local gay lobby group or firing off a letter or email to our representatives telling them what we think about the issue. At any rate, marriage is an economic issue as well as a human rights issue and at present, only opposite-sex couples receive the economic benefits of marriage.
posted by Richard on
LGBT people who are a part of the working or lower incomes may support gay marriage, but they probably do not see it as a priority compared to other issues.
If you are worried about your ability to pay for food, water, gas, housing, clothing, etc. you may support gay marriage but probably do not see it as THE major issue in your life.
posted by Bobby on
The only gays worried about gay marriage are those in relationships. It’s not like the price of oil that affect us all, or airport security, or any issue that you simply can’t ignore.
And for gays that go through life having one-night stands, gay marriage is completely irrelevant.
Come on, be honest, are there any single gays here worried about gay marriage? I’m worried about gay dating!
posted by Casey on
Bobby,
Definitely single, definitely gay, and definitely concerned very highly about marriage. Why? For a lot of the reasons that Jonathan Rauch outlined in his article in the WSJ today, “Why Gay Marriage Is Good for America.” I was particularly struck by this.
“Imagine that in the law’s eyes you and your soul mate will never be more than acquaintances. And now add even more strangeness. Imagine coming of age into a whole community, a whole culture, without marriage and the bonds of mutuality and kinship that go with it.
What is this weird world like? It has more sex and less commitment than a world with marriage. It is a world of fragile families living on the shadowy outskirts of the law; a world marked by heightened fear of loneliness or abandonment in crisis or old age; a world in some respects not even civilized, because marriage is the foundation of civilization.”
I recognize the world he describes, and I want to see it changed, if not for my generation, then for the generation that comes after me. All of us who have grown up as second-class citizens have been wounded by it to one degree or another. I don’t have to have a partner to want to see those wounds healed, and never repeated again.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
The problems in the gay community are not due to the absence of marriage; they are due to the deliberate choices made in the gay “liberation” movement to perpetuate sexual promiscuity as the highest goal, to reject commitment as being too stifling, and to specifically repudiate “conformity” as being “repressive”.
But instead of acknowledging that, Rauch acts as if having a piece of paper is going to magically unravel the problem.
I have news for Rauch; there are communities, i.e. the urban black community and the Haight, that are identical to what he describes, despite having had marriage for literally hundreds of years.
In short, perhaps Rauch should focus on gay behavior first, rather than insisting that pieces of paper will change gay people when they haven’t managed to change anywhere else where the culture encourages promiscuity, lack of commitment, and rejection of responsibility as being too “conformist”.
posted by Bobby on
“Imagine coming of age into a whole community, a whole culture, without marriage and the bonds of mutuality and kinship that go with it.”
—That is the gay world, and I don’t have to imagine it, I live in it. And legalized same-sex marriage isn’t gonna change a goddamm thing. I admit it, I’m shallow as lots of gay men, I seek someone attractive, and I’m not the only one. That is why finding a partner is hard. If I wanted someone ugly, it would be easy to find Mr. Right. But when you’re a 5 who seeks a 7 who seeks a 10, you’re basically screwed. We’re not like straight men, we don’t settle for less. You’ll never see a 10 dating a 5 unless the 10 happens to have a special fetish for the 5. We’re physical creatures, the mind is the last thing we seek unless we’ve already had the body.
And when you finally meet the man you want, then you need to have chemistry with him right away or else he won’t return your calls. Oh, and he also has to be fascinated by you. Otherwise, he’ll find someone better right away.
I don’t know why, but it’s easier to get a gay man to give you his ass than to return a freaking phone call!
And that is why one-night-stands become so popular. While they’re poor substitutes for real love and commitment, at least you can pretend for a little while that you’re in love with someone. Or maybe most guys are simply happier living alone, that is also a real possibility since every man I meet, even the ones seeking relationships, they’re all happy with their fulfilling lives.
Maybe it’s unreasonable to compare us to the breeders, the breeders hook up to have children eventually, that’s why most men have to put up with women and vice versa. But if men could breed alone, straight marriage would not exist.
posted by Casey on
Bobby, seriously – you’ve got issues, and they have nothing to do with being gay. Get some help. I know many, many gay men who are in long term relationships that weren’t predicated on the dynamic you describe – but maybe they didn’t give up hope, and that’s how they got there. You’ve given up – and trust me, that’s possibly the least attractive thing in the world. Add in the bitterness you’re holding on to, and it really is hopeless – but that’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. Take care of yourself – politics will wait.
posted by Pat on
And when you finally meet the man you want, then you need to have chemistry with him right away or else he won’t return your calls. Oh, and he also has to be fascinated by you. Otherwise, he’ll find someone better right away.
Bobby, I don’t believe that. If you predicate having “chemistry” in order for him to call (or he’ll find someone better), then the person isn’t right for you. If you do really want to settle down, then you have to find someone else who also wants to settle down.
My partner and I didn’t start dating (or have sex) until six months after we first met.
I don’t know why, but it’s easier to get a gay man to give you his ass than to return a freaking phone call!
Ain’t that the truth! The first guy I (sort of) dated, insisted he would be sleeping with me the night we first met. Of course, I made clear that wasn’t happening. But, I did call him next week, and after a short conversation, he said he’d call me back (at a specified time a couple of days later) to discuss our next date. I remember crying when he didn’t call. Yeah, pathetic on my part, as if I didn’t realize that people bullsh&t. But what made me feel much better was that I never did sleep with him.
Maybe it’s unreasonable to compare us to the breeders, the breeders hook up to have children eventually, that’s why most men have to put up with women and vice versa. But if men could breed alone, straight marriage would not exist.
My younger brother, who is as straight as they come, denies this, but he once told me he wished he was gay so that he wouldn’t have to deal with women.
And despite what NDT, says Bobby, gay marriage will change things, at least somewhat. It will create a tradition and culture that just as we encourage straight persons to find someone special, the same will be true for gay persons.
Unfortunately, one thing I do agree with NDT about, is that it won’t be magic. It will take generations for these changes to start benefiting those that do have the same dreams as their straight counterparts.
Granted it’s more difficult in the current culture, but still possible. When I was your age, I thought it would be impossible as well.
posted by Richard on
Men are generally taught to sleep around, and many young people (gay, straight, black, white, DNC, RNC, do).
Women are generally taught not to sleep around and to insist upon a relationship with commitment.
posted by Pat on
Maybe it’s unreasonable to compare us to the breeders, the breeders hook up to have children eventually, that’s why most men have to put up with women and vice versa.
Bobby, I’m sure that’s true for many, but not in the case of my older brother (who is also as straight as one can be). He and his wife had no intention of having children, and don’t. She is a year younger than me, so it’s looking less and less likely they will have children even if they change their minds.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
It will create a tradition and culture that just as we encourage straight persons to find someone special, the same will be true for gay persons.
Marriage does not create tradition and culture. Marriage is a ratification of existing tradition and culture. “Finding someone special”, monogamy, and commitment are all things that were established among heterosexuals long before the concept of legal marriage came about. They were created by necessity and enforced by societal more and taboo.
Saying that the absence of marriage is what created the gay community’s problems is little more than an attempt to shift responsibility and blame for the gay community’s choice to perpetuate sexual promiscuity as the highest goal, to reject commitment as being too stifling, and to specifically repudiate “conformity” as being “repressive”. In short, gays are blaming the absence of marriage for the catastrophe the gay community created when it specifically repudiated the “traditional values” that marriage represented.
And is that going to change? No. As we see now, when examples of “married” gay and lesbian people who continue to be sexually promiscuous and proudly proclaim they are sexually promiscuous are presented, the gay community’s reaction is to argue that there’s nothing wrong with that, that marriage is too “complex” to be bound by such old rules as monogamy, and that promiscuity and monogamy are fully equal and beneficial choices within marriage.
posted by Jorge on
I think changing the law can make a huge difference in society. It only took a few major changes in the law to make racial discrimination socially unacceptable throughout almost all society. I’m just not convinced the same will happen with legal marriage. The lack of state-sponsored marriage is not what drives young gays to despair and suicide. And besides, there are plenty of straight couples in the world who are together+committed but not legally married. I don’t really know why they do that for so many years without getting married but I’ve seen it. We’re going to see more gay couples as society becomes less homophobic, not as more states pass laws legalizing gay marriage.
posted by Pat on
Marriage does not create tradition and culture. Marriage is a ratification of existing tradition and culture. “Finding someone special”, monogamy, and commitment are all things that were established among heterosexuals long before the concept of legal marriage came about. They were created by necessity and enforced by societal more and taboo.
NDT, since you weren’t around thousands of years ago when marriage was first established, how it happened, what came first (marriage or increase in monogamy) is just speculation on your part, and frankly, for any historians that make that claim.
Saying that the absence of marriage is what created the gay community’s problems is little more than an attempt to shift responsibility and blame for the gay community’s choice to perpetuate sexual promiscuity as the highest goal, to reject commitment as being too stifling, and to specifically repudiate “conformity” as being “repressive”. In short, gays are blaming the absence of marriage for the catastrophe the gay community created when it specifically repudiated the “traditional values” that marriage represented.
Not quite. I maintain there’s a lot of blame to go around. Gay persons certainly bear much of the responsibility. But those who demonize gay persons, and continue on with hatred and bigotry also bear some responsibility.
And is that going to change? No. As we see now, when examples of “married” gay and lesbian people who continue to be sexually promiscuous and proudly proclaim they are sexually promiscuous are presented, the gay community’s reaction is to argue that there’s nothing wrong with that…
Again, we haven’t lived long enough where same sex marriage has been long established. I’ve indicated that it will reduce promiscuity. I’ve also admitted that I have no idea for sure if I’m correct. You’re saying you already know is not proof, unless you have an accurate crystal ball into the future.
I think changing the law can make a huge difference in society. It only took a few major changes in the law to make racial discrimination socially unacceptable throughout almost all society. I’m just not convinced the same will happen with legal marriage. The lack of state-sponsored marriage is not what drives young gays to despair and suicide. And besides, there are plenty of straight couples in the world who are together+committed but not legally married. I don’t really know why they do that for so many years without getting married but I’ve seen it. We’re going to see more gay couples as society becomes less homophobic, not as more states pass laws legalizing gay marriage.
Jorge, I think I agree with your points. I don’t think it’s the lack of same sex marriage, in and of itself, that leads to young gay persons to despair. It’s all that comes with it. As long as we have leaders who pander to the bigots, that will not help. As long as we have parents who either abuse their children, or at the very least can’t accept an important part of their child’s life, there’s going to be despair. Sure, nothing is absolute, as many young gay persons buck the odds, and don’t commit suicide. But this bigotry manifests itself in other ways onto young persons. Sometimes people become apologists for the preachers, leaders, and parents, in an attempt (deliberate or not) to perpetuate the anti-gay hate.
As for your straight couple example, I don’t quite get it either. But I’m not surprised. They still grew up in a culture in which straight people are expected to eventually enter a committed relationship. For some reason, they chose not to get married. Fine by me, whatever. I don’t want to force all gay couples to get married either.
posted by Richard on
Again, gay and straight men probably sleep around more then women (gay or straight).
Younger men are probably more sexually promiscuous then older men
Younger, handsome and successful men are probably more sexually promiscuous then unattractive or poor men.
posted by Bobby on
Hey Pat,
“Bobby, I don’t believe that. If you predicate having “chemistry” in order for him to call (or he’ll find someone better), then the person isn’t right for you. If you do really want to settle down, then you have to find someone else who also wants to settle down.”
—I have dated all kinds of men, including those who want to settle down. Getting a first date is a challenge, a third date a miracle, a fourth date an impossibility. There are a lot of people that are right for me, but apparently, I’m not right for them. And I’m sure I’m not the only one in that situation.
“My partner and I didn’t start dating (or have sex) until six months after we first met.”
—That’s shocking! Weren’t you afraid that he might not like your penis or what you look like naked? I have no idea how you had that kind of patience. I’ll tell you this, I didn’t sleep with the last man I dated, and all I got out of him was 3 sexless dates, and then he vanished.
“It will create a tradition and culture that just as we encourage straight persons to find someone special, the same will be true for gay persons.”
—The thing is this. Women are used to rejecting straight men, even great looking straight guys. Even nice straight guys. So eventually the straight guy settles for whatever he can get.
Gays don’t settle. So even with a culture of marriage and monogamy, they’re still gonna want prince charming to have washboard abs, a 9 inch penis, blue eyes and blond hair or whatever ideal of physical perfection they have.
Look at our community! We have great looking guys that feel ugly, skinny guys that feel they need more muscles, muscle queens taking steroids to increase what they already have.
It’s like that episode where Ted,the opera lover from QAF dated another opera lover. Sure, they had a lot of chemistry, but as soon as they saw each other naked, Ted told him he needed to hit the gym, do more weights, do more cardio. That’s our community.
And that’s why so many of us hook up, because the only time a gay man gives you a chance is when he’s horny and needs release.
Pretty gays simply don’t get it. They have a different in our community, because when you’re really sexy, people want to hook up with you more than once, perhaps eventually develop a relationship with you. But when you’re average, when your penis isn’t 7, 8, 9 or 11 inches, when you’re 20 pounds overweight, then you’re expendable.
Oh, and don’t ever date someone uglier than you, because those are the worse, those will actually treat you like your shit just because you’re ugly. They’ll think they’re doing you a favor by dating you. Ever reject one of those? They simply look at you and say “well, you’re not so hot either.”
I’m telling you, Pat, this gay community ain’t for sissies, no pun intended.
posted by Pat on
—That’s shocking! Weren’t you afraid that he might not like your penis or what you look like naked? I have no idea how you had that kind of patience. I’ll tell you this, I didn’t sleep with the last man I dated, and all I got out of him was 3 sexless dates, and then he vanished.
Actually, I first met my partner when I was dating someone else (my first boyfriend), who I was reasonably happy with at the time. We were sort of friends, and he dated a couple of people in the meantime. Soon after we were both ceremoniously dumped, we started talking more with each other, and then started dating. I’m sure if either of us didn’t find the other attractive, then it probably wouldn’t have developed into anything. Of course, it’s more than attraction as well.
As for the last guy you dated, sounds like you did okay. You didn’t have to waste time having sex with someone who, ultimately, wasn’t interested in having a relationship with you.
—The thing is this. Women are used to rejecting straight men, even great looking straight guys. Even nice straight guys. So eventually the straight guy settles for whatever he can get.
What I find interesting is that in the straight world, men may be interested in a relationship too, but are more into hooking up that night with some woman. But yet, it’s the woman who spends hours prettying themselves up, and the guy takes all of two minutes getting ready.
Gays don’t settle. So even with a culture of marriage and monogamy, they’re still gonna want prince charming to have washboard abs, a 9 inch penis, blue eyes and blond hair or whatever ideal of physical perfection they have.
Some gays do “settle,” but the key is what one is settling for.
It’s like that episode where Ted,the opera lover from QAF dated another opera lover. Sure, they had a lot of chemistry, but as soon as they saw each other naked, Ted told him he needed to hit the gym, do more weights, do more cardio. That’s our community.
Yeah, I remember that episode and thinking how stupid Ted was. On the other hand, if opera was the only thing they had (even if they were sexually compatible), it was probably doomed.
And that’s why so many of us hook up, because the only time a gay man gives you a chance is when he’s horny and needs release.
I don’t believe that’s true for all guys all the time, but those are the ones you want to stay away from if you are seeking a relationship.
Oh, and don’t ever date someone uglier than you, because those are the worse, those will actually treat you like your shit just because you’re ugly. They’ll think they’re doing you a favor by dating you. Ever reject one of those? They simply look at you and say “well, you’re not so hot either.”
I felt that ‘tude from the guys who thought they were more attractive. I got the sense of entitlement that I was “lucky” that they should be talking to me, or that I should buy all the drinks. Yeah, right. More like, later, much.
I’m telling you, Pat, this gay community ain’t for sissies, no pun intended.
Sure, it’s not always pretty out there. I came across my share of duds. All I can tell you is that GQ isn’t going to call me any time soon. That I started entering the dating world older than you are now. That every time I went out, I never expected to find someone, and truly not disappointed when that was the case, which was most of the time, and looked forward to the next time I went out and probably wouldn’t find anyone again.
posted by RIchard on
Hmm. “Queer as Folk” was a gay soap opera. Frankly, it was not a wonderful tv soap opera (it had its highs and lows. UK version was a bit better storywise) and basing it on reality (i.e. this is what gay people are really like) is a little silly, especially from a gay man.
posted by Bobby on
Richard, what happened to Ted happened to me. I once dated a man that likes Fox News and Bill O’reilly. Problem was that he wasn’t my type physically.
So QAF was quite accurate in certain depictions of gay life. As for the UK version, I couldn’t watch it because the Brian character was dating a 14 or 15 year old Justin. In the US version Justin lies about his age and it was Justin mother that eventually forces him to take his son after Justin runs away. So the American version has more morality.
posted by Richard on
Bobby;
You really need to seek some professional help! Visit your local LGBT Community center and seek our a good therapist.
Queer as Folk (US) is a gay soap opera about a group of young, white, and attractive gay men. At best, in terms of realism, it depicts a fairly narrow (and intentionally silly) realm of the ‘gay culture’.
Many of the characters in the series did things that were not ethical, moral or even smart. Why? It helps move the story along or keeps people watching the show, and thus sell more ad space.
In the UK, the age of consent for sex is 16, although at the time it was probably 18 for gay sex and 16 for straight sex.
It veries from state to state in the US.
The acting, cinematography, music and storyline were better in the UK version.
But the episodes were also shorter, the series did not last as long.
Justin lies, but Brian clearly sees through it. The UK version was probably a bit more realistic, (less-pc) in terms of what would actually happen.
posted by Bobby on
Don’t tell me to get help, Richard. If you want to debate the issues, fine, debate then. But I don’t tell you to see a shrink because you like free health care or because you’re more sympathetic to white on black crime than the other way around. Besides, it’s pointless to tell a person to get help. What kind of argument is that? Heck, that’s just what the christians fundies say when they can’t win an argument: “you need help, I’m gonna pray for you.”
Well, I don’t need help. Frankly, I don’t think I even know what I need, so what qualifies you to answer that question?
“Queer as Folk (US) is a gay soap opera about a group of young, white, and attractive gay men.”
—Just like real life, the pretty guys get the pretty boyfriends, the uglies watch porn, pay for sex, and hook up with trolls. My point is that the experience soft those guys in Queer As Folk are pretty real. Maybe you identify more with Michael or with Ben, but frankly, I like Ted. Ted is the guy who doesn’t fit in the gay community. Ted represents lots of gay men. And like most gay men, Ted wants a Justin, an Emmet or a Brian. He doesn’t want another Ted.
Why do I need help? I’m simply telling it like it is.
posted by Richard on
Bobby;
You need to get some professional mental health. There is nothing to be ashmed of in this regard. I have worked this area, professionally, for a number of years.
I have never made any comment here about what I may or may not feel about ‘free’ health care. Like MM, you assume that because I do not worship the GOP, I must worship the Democrats.
I have little sympathy for people — black or white — who commit crimes. I just believe that the Constitution and the rule of law should be followed.
Well, I don’t need help. Frankly, I don’t think I even know what I need, so what qualifies you to answer that question?
I am not a Christian, so I will not pray for you. However, I am making the friendly suggestion based on your racial or personal comments you have made here.
I do not identify with any of the characters on Queer as Folk. It is a fictional soap opera and its rather silly to confuse fantasy with reality.
Heck, I often enjoyed Buffy The Vampire Slayer, but never really identified with any of the characters.
posted by Bobby on
Richard, the last shrink I saw was a pain in the ass. He didn’t take credit cards, didn’t like dealing with HMO’s, was charging me $100 just to let me speak. He was nothing but a goddamn boring Freudian, the kind that lets you talk and talk and rarely says anything. So after 6 months of wasting my money with the bastard, I gave him up.
Then I saw another one, he seemed better, but after hearing me talk for an hour, he decided to recommend me to someone else. He probably didn’t like gays or didn’t like me or who knows what?
So I’m done with your professional help, I’m done with paying $180 to college educated assholes that sit there listening and offer no real advice.
I don’t have the time, I don’t have the money, and I don’t have the patience. I’ve had enough bad shrinks in my life.
Look at Woody Allen, he has seen annalists his entire life and he ended up having sex with his own 17 year old adopted daughter. A man old enough to be her grandfather!
And then you got your psychiatrists, those are even worse because they get to prescribe all kinds of crazy drugs. Yeah, I’ve taken prozac, luvox, wellbutrin, nothing but a waste of money!
posted by Rob on
Bobby, even I noticed you have a nihilistic streak in you. As for for getting help, I suggest you do find a psych that takes HMO, or whatever it’s called in the states. That first psych you went to sounded like a waste of time and money in the first session.
posted by Bobby on
Rob, even with an HMO you still have to spend $500 out of pocket and then those people only pay for 50% of your session.
In the past when I was a college student, I had time to see shrinks, college shrinks are free. But now there’s no time, and frankly, I don’t see the point of them. A personal trainer helps you get a sexier body that gets you laid with sexier people. A medical doctor cures ailments. A friend keeps you company and doesn’t tell you that it’s time to stop after 50 minutes.
If I had serious problems, I would see a shrink.