Another progress marker, culture-wise. Azariah Southworth, host of the popular syndicated Christian youth show "The Remix," has publicly announced he is gay. He explained:
"This has been a long time coming. I'm in a place where I'm at peace with my faith, friends, family and more importantly myself. I know this will end my career in Christian television, but I must now live my life openly and honestly with everyone. This is my reason for doing this."
We know that gay and Christian (or otherwise religiously devout) often go hand in glove, but many religious conservatives don't. They see gay people as hedonistic self-gratifiers intent on rending the moral order. Many of these folks are too comfortable with their prejudices to ever change, which is why reaching out to devout young people the way Southworth has is so very important. Here's hoping his good news doesn't, in fact, end his Christain television career-or that he finds another way to remain both successful and an inspiration to others.
53 Comments for “Good News Proclaimed”
posted by Casey on
Amen to that. God bless and protect this brave young man.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Stephen, thanks for bringing Asariah’s story into focus for IGF readers. To think that such a young guy was able to bring his spark about Christian music groups into over 22 million households is incredible. He’s a great ambassador for that big niche of the music industry… I hope he continues with the Remix.
Like he would say: we’re all jars of clay.
posted by Richard on
Their are many LGBT people of faith and many LGBT-faith based organizations.
Religion can be a source of great inspiration, hope, sacrifirice, and a call for justice. It can also be less noble.
One of the major challenges is that much of the ‘Christian’ media empire, tends to get a lot of backing from groups such as TBN, 700 Clubm Foucs on the Family. Groups that really do not like gay people.
posted by Bobby on
Azariah has balls to come out in that environment. However, I don’t think his show is will last. The only gays christians like are ex-gays.
Frankly, I don’t get it. Are some gays massochistic? Do they like to be in environments where everyone hates them? Azariah should know that in his christian world his homosexuality is an abomination. That’s how they see it, I don’t agree, but it doesn’t matter, I don’t make the rules, they do, and they hate his sexuality and the parents of the kids who watch his show will also hate his sexuality. The christian kids who watch his show will have the same feelings. Why? Because people like to feel superior. Christians love looking down at gays and feeling superior to us. That’s why they want to “save” marriage and keep us out of the military.
In fact, to a christian coming out is really bad. They hate us because we make our “sins” public. There’s no adultery parade, or murder parade, or burglary parade, but us gays, we’re not ashamed of our nature because we don’t see it as sinful, so our parades and even our public expressions of honesty bring outrage to them. I’m willing to bet Azariah knows all this, perhaps his coming out is an excuse to be rejected and get out of that environment.
Frankly, all gays should leave homophobic religions.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
“Azariah has balls to come out…”
You know, I was thinking the exact same thing this morning. But not for the reasons mentioned here… I was thinking, wow, is he going to be blistered by the garden variety fellow-gay when they learn he’s a Christian and church observant.
As for this being a liability, I doubt it. His show has no advertisers. It’s created on a below the shoe-strings budget… hell, BAS would love to have enough in the budget for shoe strings! It’s carried in 22 million households by three non-Christian and 2 decidedly Christian media distribution enterprises. I’m betting 70-30 he is in production this fall.
If the show is canned, he can always take it, reformat it and run with it since it is his creation and he remains the producer/host. Christian musicians are like lots of other artists, fairly tolerant and open-minded when it comes to being gay or out. Trust me, I’ve been around a lot of Christian artists these last 12 years.
Now, if he just doesn’t show up to cut a segment dressed in a “Pitcher” tshirt, he’ll probably be fine… although I think lots of anti-religionist gays would prefer he get dumped, become homeless and recant his faith. That’s the kind of drama some of those anti-religionist love.
posted by Casey on
Bobby… I don’t know if there’s any point in saying this, but I’ll give it a shot. Gays who choose to remain within the Christian religion do so for the very simple reason that they believe the religion is true. I am a Christian – I believe that following Jesus as Lord, loving God and my neighbor, is the only proper path for my life. That doesn’t change just because some other members of my church believe that I am sinful, sick, or delusional because of my sexual orientation. It isn’t about them – it’s about God, and my relationship to Him. I couldn’t leave the religion if I tried, and as long as the church which speaks in the name of the God I love is abusing gays and lesbians, it is my job to stay there, and through both my words and my life testify to the truth that God loves His GLBT children just as we are. To tell gays to abandon the church is to fundamentally misunderstand what the church is.
posted by Amicus on
Azariah should know that in his christian world his homosexuality is an abomination.
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I’m curious about your choice of words. Is that something someone said to you (recently or a long time ago), something you read, or just a general sense that you have about what Christians believe?
posted by Bobby on
I didn’t tell gays to abandon religion, I said “homophobic religions.” If you can find a church that’s gay accepting, fine, join it. Here we’re talking about gays who belong to homophobic churches, which are the great majority of churches.
“I was thinking, wow, is he going to be blistered by the garden variety fellow-gay when they learn he’s a Christian and church observant.”
—Here you go blaiming the gays again. From his picture he looks like an average looking man, thus he will be treated like most average men are treated in the gay scene, which can be good or bad. His christianity will be ignored unless he becomes a pest and tries to convert people, and frankly, nobody likes a pest.
“As for this being a liability, I doubt it. His show has no advertisers.”
—Well, if it’s run on christian TV, that means a channel like TBN, they don’t take too kindly to homosexuals. He could ran the show on TV, but christian families use internet filters, I’m sure he’s going to be filtered out.
“Christian musicians are like lots of other artists, fairly tolerant and open-minded when it comes to being gay or out.”
—The artists are tolerant, the people who own the networks, the magazines, the communication vehicles are not tolerant.
“although I think lots of anti-religionist gays would prefer he get dumped, become homeless and recant his faith. That’s the kind of drama some of those anti-religionist love.”
—You’re wrong, gays cheer when a homophobe is exposed as gay and loses everything. As far as I know, this guy never said anything homophobic, so I doubt he has enemies in the gay community, unless you’re talking about fans of Richard Dawkins, but there’s plenty of breeders that agree with that evil man.
Do you realize how homophobic christians are? I get my movie reviews from Christian Spotlight on Entertainment, and I read the comments christians leave every time a movie has a gay kiss or any gay theme. True, sometimes I’m surprised, some of them like movies such as The Object of My Affection and Philadelphia, but for the most part, they’re grossed out by gays.
What does it take for you to realize that christians don’t like you? You’re not one of them, it doesn’t matter how hard you try, how goodly you live your life, how often you go to church, you’re not their equal. You’re like Shylock in The Merchant of Venice, they may do business with you, they may ask you for favors, but behind your back and sometimes in front of you, they hate your guts.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
You’re not one of them, it doesn’t matter how hard you try, how goodly you live your life, how often you go to church, you’re not their equal. You’re like Shylock in The Merchant of Venice, they may do business with you, they may ask you for favors, but behind your back and sometimes in front of you, they hate your guts.
So what?
Do you intend to live the rest of your life giving up things that are important to you because certain people may not approve?
Seriously, for a group that supposedly is all about acceptance of diversity and tolerance of opinion, the gay community is more conformist and paranoid about what other people are thinking than a group of high school girls.
And as far as “hating your guts”, you sound like an abusive spouse telling the other how no one else likes them, how everyone else hates them, and how there’s no hope for them unless they do exactly what their abuser tells them.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Bobby, if you think a gay Christian stands even a fleeting chance at acceptance within the conventional gay world, you are the one who is wrong. Most gays hate religion with a ferocity usually reserved for new converts to Islam or Amway.
Guys like you and ChasWilson are a dime a dozen in our community. Like BarryObama, you condescendingly sneer at gays who are church-observant, belittle the important role that religion plays in those gay lives and take advantage, when possible, of driving a wedge between those gays and their faith by trying to “convert” them from being observant into something more akin to the conventional gay amoral secularism du jure. At the very least, you guys work hard to raise questions and doubt in their minds about their faith. I know, I know, you’ve offered that if gays can find a supportive church, go for it… but that’s not what your words suggest you believe.
I wonder if you even appreciate that your words of advice to Christian gays is EXACTLY the advice GayLefties here have been giving to guys like you who think of yourself as a gay conservative? I can hear those GayLefties now… “Bobby, don’t you know that conservatives hate your guts. Behind your back they are calling you names, laughing at your boyfriend holding hands, making fun of your lisp and hand flailing and high maintence hair style. You’ll never be a part of them no matter how long you swear allegiance to the FlatTax, no matter how many immigrants you kick in the butt and report for deportation, no matter how many guns hang from the gun rack in your “LookAtMeI’mGay” yellow MiniCooper.”
That probably won’t matter to you, Bobby, because your belief in the conservative political philosophy is a core element that defines you.
But I’ll wager you your weight in donuts that if BAS has a typical experience in coming out with our community –not the Christian community, the gay community– it will be adverse and most gays will demean his Christianity if given the opportunity.
I think Azariah has more to be concerned about in gay acceptance of his Christian nature than he does in keeping his show growing and prospering.
And you’re flat out wrong that it’s a “gays are to blame” mentality that informs this concern… there is something in the gay psyche that seeks to condemn those who might judge conduct and religion is often the easiest target in society for gays (and liberals) to vent that condemnation. Conservatives come next.
But like NDXXX advises… so what? Don’t be defined by what others think; stick to your inner self and be strong. Which is easy for a big strapping bear of a guy who can crush a Volkswagen with his thighs.
posted by Donny on
Christ Jesus and the apostles “made the rules,” so to speak, about Christian life. And, the “gay life,” IS hedonistic and licentious. Every Gay Pride Parade proves that. Inevitably, a life of multiple sex partners goes hand in glove with GLBT life.
Whenever someone “comes out,” as gay, that inevitably leads to promoting an “anything goes” version of morality.
That is just the consequences of an unrestrained ideology. What gays need to tolerate, is that every Christian “comes out” of a world of hedonism and self-serving desires. That is what repentance and accepting Jesus over the world actually means. The GLBT community always reaffirms the lascivious and licentious nature of its beliefs and practices. And hey, if that is what you want to do with your body so be it. Just allow others to disagree with promoting that. It is not the fault of the Bible-affirming believer, that Jesus detailed “marriage” as between a man and a woman. That is a fact that cannot be altered by man-made laws, or absurd scripture twisting. And it is not the fault of the consistent believer, that there is only opposition to same-gender sex presented by the Apostles. “In the world and not of it.” Azariah Southworth, dwelt to close to the world, and accepted its ways and rejected what he should know is the right thing to do. Hopefully – unless he repents – his days are over in Christian media. But alas, the GLBT community and culture, views a Christian doing the right thing as a homophobe and hate crimes perpetrator. The Apostles viewed the kinds people that repented and became solid believers as followers of Christ. I am never, ever going to agree with homosexuality and the GLBT culture and community, and THAT, needs to be tolerated and included as part of a diverse society. Do what YOU wilt, and do no harm (and do not teach other people’s children to do as you do) to those that disagree with GLBT culture. “I” personally (as a Christian) wish you all well, and a peaceful and long life, but, that goes for everyone as well. Repent and live a life consistent with the witness of the New Testament, or, live life out of the Church as you see fit. That is also a Gospel truth.
posted by Amicus on
Most gays hate religion with a ferocity usually reserved for new converts to Islam or Amway.
=====
Where do you come up with this stuff?
And, the “gay life,” IS hedonistic and licentious.
=======
Because your mind is closed, you don’t understanding what you are seeing, because you won’t listen to testimony from those who you should hear. Too often, you are confusing “hedonism” with “joy” or “celebration”, put forward in the face of repression. You are confusing “licentiousness” with basic freedom. Christian belief is not a-sexual or anti-sexual. “Gay lives”, even at the extreme, do NOT revolve around Pride Parades, right? Think more broadly about what right the lives of the Apostles show (remember that none of them were women, so their lives are not literal examples, correct?).
You are the one who should repent. By what authority do you ask others to keep their light under a bushel? Try to talk to some gay people and stop thinking about some label you made up, called “the Gay Community”. As a person, Azariah is likely just as much a part of your community as anyones.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Amicus asks: “Where do you come up with this stuff?”
You mean: Most gays hate religion with a ferocity usually reserved for new converts to Islam or Amway.
Let’s see, Amicus… should we just stay with comments from gays here?
Or do you want to travel to the underside of the GayLeft… maybe BlogActive or HomoPolitico where the lead is “Pope Cheers on GayHaters: No Euthanasia Except for Gays”? Hmmm, nothing hateful there, eh?
How about the comments section over at 365? “…f**k religions and churches, we need to burn them all down”. Nawh, that was meant as a loving embrace and gesture intended to help smoke out any devils in the church.
Or how about RichardRothstein over at QueerSighted…”apparently the only thing you need in BushAmerica to be an expert on homophobia is a passion for dishonesty in the name of Jesus”. A double bonus because Dickie combines his bigotry of all religions with a heady, heavy dose of BushBashing every… oh, I don’t know, week, day, hour?
Or how about this very story of BAS coming out covered by Towleroad and this cute little ditty of a comment by frequent commentor Johnny: “Having an open mind shouldn’t mean you have to put up with people’s ignorant, superstitious beliefs in nonsensical myths. The Christian religion was created by people out of a fear of death, a fear of the unknown, and as a way of controlling other people. It serves, as it always has, to keep people poor, stupid, and under control. If you want to believe in ridiculous nonsense, fine, but evaluate why you believe it. You’ve been brainwashed, essentially, by your parents because Christianity is also a ready made way of bringing up children, by people who have no clue how to otherwise. If you knew nothing of Christianity until you were an adult, and were intelligent, you’d have nothing to do with it. Period. Break free from the programming.”
Of course, Johnny meant to insert the word “communism” or “socialism”… there’s no animosity toward religion there. Nawh, not any beyond what’s reasonable and prudent, eh?
I guess my question to you, Amicus, is how long have you been living under that very big, big, big and impenetrable rock? ‘Cause, girl, you gotta get a life.
Or were you upset with the Amway reference? Just kidding. You’ll have to ask Donny about the balance of your query.
posted by Brian Miller on
Southworth will be bounced out of his job.
His sexual orientation is fundamentally incompatible with Christian mysticism and superstition, no matter how much he tries to alter it.
Rather than try to distort the shepherds’ myths to make them say something other than what they say, gay people should instead challenge the applicability of those myths to everyday life. Even the most strident fundamentalist Christians have done so themselves — ignoring, for instance, the clear Biblical bans against divorce/remarriage, consumption of cheeseburgers and seafood, and denunciation of savings/wealth/possessions.
posted by Richard on
LGBT people often try to reconcile their sexual orientation or gender id with their faith.
I am not Christian, and am well aware of the homophobia that does exist, but I do not see why a person cannot be a good, honest, decent Christian and gay.
posted by Bobby on
“if you think a gay Christian stands even a fleeting chance at acceptance within the conventional gay world, you are the one who is wrong.”
—He’s gonna be judged on his looks and his personality, like the rest of us. Besides, he lives in a southern state, southern gays are more tolerant of religious and conservative gays.
“you condescendingly sneer at gays who are church-observant, belittle the important role that religion plays in those gay lives and take advantage, when possible, of driving a wedge between those gays and their faith by trying to “convert” them from being observant into something more akin to the conventional gay amoral secularism du jure.”
—Did you read what Donny wrote? Do you want to join Donny in his church? Do you want to pray with him? Gays like me are realistic, we know most religions are homophobic so we stay away from most religions. And yes, I do sneer at gays who aren’t realistic. I admit it, I was tempted by evangelicals, I used to love watching the televangelists judge everybody, but watching it from a distance and joining it are two different things.
“At the very least, you guys work hard to raise questions and doubt in their minds about their faith.”
—If their faith is strong, our words won’t matter. I know Christian fundamentalists, they always talk about being tested, very well, I like testing gays who belong to those churches.
“That probably won’t matter to you, Bobby, because your belief in the conservative political philosophy is a core element that defines you.”
—You are right, my belief in conservative principles stops me from joining the democrats or any liberal group. But religion is not the same. The republican party platform doesn’t say you have to be straight. Ann Coulter doesn’t hate gays with conservatives principles. But evangelical Christianity does hate all gays. Some conservatives tolerate my homosexuality, others accept it, they all welcome my support and my vote. But religion demands perfection and conformity.
I just think that if your priest or reverend believes homosexuality is sinful, you shouldn’t be a member of that church.
“there is something in the gay psyche that seeks to condemn those who might judge conduct and religion is often the easiest target in society for gays”
—Because religion is often used against gays. I’m not saying seculars can’t be homophobic, many are, it has taken Cuba decades to be more gay accepting, and they still have miles to go. But when you have religious people using their pulpits to condemn us, when the Pope has access to the president and tells him to ban same-sex marriage, when bishops threaten candidates that if they don’t vote like catholics they will be denied communion, they create animosity. So gays get angry, and respond in equally vile ways.
“Which is easy for a big strapping bear of a guy who can crush a Volkswagen with his thighs.”
—Very funny, I’m 6 feet tall, 205 pounds. Hardly a bear. But I guess you’d rather imagine me as a fat guy, even if my BMI says I have a healthy weight and only have to lose 20 more pounds. Still, you make my point, it’s all about looks. Azariah won’t be hated for being a christian, he’ll be hated for being a bear or for not being 0% body fat, or for not having enough muscles, or for not having an 8 inch penis. Still, Azariah like the rest of us we’ll be able to find his own target audience that will like him the way he is. And sweety, that target audience isn’t evangelical Christians, like Donny says, his career is kaput, over, finished.
posted by Amicus on
Let’s see, Amicus… should we just stay with comments from gays here?
No, I think my point was to look well beyond that.
Just as with non-gays, there is a vocal minority who talk in the ways you just mentioned. It just seems worse, because … they get leeway. It’s not exactly easy to defend the Pope, say, on the “intrinsic evil” of gay love.
But the idea that *most* gays are as fanatically opposed to religion is a non-starter. What’s more, as far as non-gays reading this, leaving the false impression, perhaps, that gays are spiritually bereft in proportions far in excess of the non-gay population is unwanted. I’m sure I can find invective such as you cite from non-gay websites, too, right? I don’t think Sinead O’Connor was feeling particularly lesbian when she tore up the image of the Pope, crying out, “Fight the real evil!”.
Almost every major denomination has a gay group. Most major cities have gay-friendly ministries. The MCC has been around for years. And, where non of those are satisfactory, people have found other outlets, including wicca, Paganism, and all manner of blends of eastern religions (or “experiences” like Est Est Est). The list is long.
posted by Amicus on
It just seems worse, because … they get leeway.
=======
uh, clearer:
Among gays, it just seems worse, because … they may get more leeway.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Amicus, you asked me where I get those perspectives of gays generally hating religion with the ferocity of a convert to Islam or Amway?
I shared with you several websites run by conventionally liberal, GayLeft activists who pillory religion often.
It wasn’t a test for you to now find some outrageous comments to prove the negative proposition.
You asked me where I got that perspective and I shared with 3-4 of hundreds of sites… and I didn’t use a single of the most rabid ones… which also tend to feature gay pornography more than they do anti-religious commentary.
Unfortuantely, the last unbiased study of the religious preferences of gays was done in 1997. It found 57.5% of gays agreed “strongly” or “very strongly” with the following statement -“I don’t attend religious services”.
Sherrill’s study of gay voters -gay voters, not the general gay population- in 2004 found that gays were more than 2x as likely to never attend church as hetero voters.
Does never attending church translate into hating religion? Not quite but it is indicative… and I think looking closely at GayLeft websites and exit polling results help us better understand how deep that animosity toward religion might run the the general gay population.
The bigger question is why. It’s one I’d love to hear BAS explain given his experiences in both worlds.
BTW, if you listen to BAS’s various YouTube feeds, you’ll hear him talk about how much support he’s rec’d in emails from Christians and gay Christians who share his experience… it kind of flies in the face of what the anti-religionist bigots here THINK is going to happen to him.
Honestly Amicus, do you think the majority or minority of gays have a strong negative attitude toward religion? I think, by far, it’s a majority that is perfectly consistent with secular liberalism.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Umm, Bobby… the comment about crushing a Vokswagen between the thighs was in reference to NDXXX and his advice to you.
Hope that clears that one up.
As to this opinion: “And sweety, that target audience isn’t evangelical Christians, like Donny says, his career is kaput, over, finished”
You may hope and wish for that to be so… I won’t play out the pun of you “praying” for his career getting torqued… but time will tell. I tried to explain why it won’t happen… easily moved show. low budget format, ready access to Christian musicians, etc.
But reason isn’t important to you. Time will have to be the better judge. I can wait.
posted by Amicus on
…do you think the majority or minority of gays have a strong negative attitude toward religion?
I’d wager that most gays’ attitudes would follow their parents (subject to the ‘normal’ intergenerational differences), if other things were equal.
The number of gays who feel *positively* harmed (perhaps even irreparably so) by their childhood faith community probably skews the distribution significantly. The adult experiences are probably too varied to generalize.
posted by Amicus on
to extend those remarks:
“…skews the distribution significantly, probably more than secular liberalism.”
The current problem with American politics is that there aren’t more secular religious conservatives, right? Somehow, the Ralph Reeds of the world have convinced quite a few that that’s unwanted in GOP politics.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Amicus’ “I’d wager that most gays’ attitudes (toward religion) would follow their parents”
You’d lose that bet, bigtime. Gays have almost twice the rate of non-observant church attendance as the general population… or were you suggesting that the majority of parents of gays are flawed in some way toward religion?
It’s a stretch, Amicus. You still have answered if you think it’s a minority or majority of gays that have an animosity toward religion… nice dance moves in the meanwhile.
posted by Ashpenaz on
I am stunned to be reading this thread and finding so many (which is, several) who agree with me! Where were you in those threads where I was getting attacked? And why are the rest of you not attacking these guys with the same ferocity you attack me?
posted by Bobby on
“Does never attending church translate into hating religion? Not quite but it is indicative… ”
—Look, for most of us religion is boring, dull, plain, outdated, tedious, traumatic and yucky. When I go to a musical, it’s fabulous. When I go to any church, it’s boring. It even hurts physically, religions seem to thrive in torture, specially with the pews.
When I go to church (any church), I get bored. I had to put up with organized religion during all my childhood, I didn’t like it, I suspect many other people didn’t like it as well.
One of the joys of being an adult is that you rarely have to put up with things you don’t like. Specially gays, happy gay people are the freest people in the world. That’s why religion hates us, they can’t keep the gays living in fear of sin, they can’t control us so they see us as a corrupting influence. Well, fuck them I say. I need to go to church like I need a bullet in my head.
posted by Richard on
I would consider myself to be a person of faith, but I am not Christian and thus do not attend ‘Church’.
I do think that many LGBT people have been, well ‘burned’ by religious and political institutions. Yet, our faith, our politics, our values are still an important part of all our lives.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Amicus, I think the posterboi for the gay and anti-religionists position, Bobby, answered the question if it’s a majority or minority of gays who are anti-religious. Majority it is for all the reasons and more that Bobby outlines… brilliantly, too.
As for those who offer “I have a faith, I just don’t go to church”… it’s sort of like saying “I’m a good citizen, I just don’t vote or pay taxes”.
Sorry, life doesn’t work like that and those exemptions are kind of rare, if even available.
“I’m gay, I just don’t like men”. Nawh, doesn’t work, does it? Nice try… it allows the few to define “faith” as something they possess but don’t use. They might be good moral agents, but I doubt they have faith. If they did, they’d be down on their knees seeking forgiveness from God… and She wouldn’t let them cop-out that easy.
posted by Ashpenaz on
I am a Christian because I gave my life to Jesus and accepted Him as Savior. For a fuller account, please see the Order of Baptism in the Book of Common Prayer. I was fully immersed in a creek, and then made my profession in front of witnesses at the church. Consequently, I no longer live for what pleases me, but what pleases God. I no longer own my body–it is the Temple of the Holy Spirit–see the order of Confirmation in the same source. I am merely the steward. As a disciple of the living Jesus, I hope to only have sex with the person He brings into my life to be my partner. No one else–you see, it’s not about my pleasure, it’s about God’s pleasure.
OK, this is all true–and I’m sure this is pretty much what Azariah believes, too. How much support are we going to find for that at the next Pride parade?
posted by Bobby on
“As for those who offer “I have a faith, I just don’t go to church”… it’s sort of like saying “I’m a good citizen, I just don’t vote or pay taxes”.
—I disagree, Michigan. I know religious people who lie, cheat, steal and commit adultery. Just because they go to church or fast on Yom Kippur doesn’t make them good people.
Frankly, I’ve seen too much hypocrisy when it comes to religion. Too many “chaste” priests molesting boys and girls, too many rich televangelists duping the folks into giving them money, and now Obama’s white-hating pastor who ironically is moving to a white neighborhood to live in a $10 million dollar house.
Think of the Pope, he goes to the poorest countries and tells the people to have more kids because his church needs more priests and nuns. These poor people can barely feed the kids they have, how the hell are they gonna take care of more children?
And then these motherfuckers have the balls to tell the gay community to stop sinning? Healer heal thyself!
posted by Ashpenaz on
Thanks for the support, Bobby! Also, wow, I didn’t know all that bad stuff about religious people!! Thanks for opening my eyes! If only I’d known the church was full of sinners, even at the highest level, I’d never have faith. I’ll be sure give more time to a perfect community which has never exploited young people and which hasn’t spread disease or ever done any bad thing ever–see you at the bathhouse!
posted by Charles Wilson on
Unfortuantely, the last unbiased study of the religious preferences of gays was done in 1997. It found 57.5% of gays agreed “strongly” or “very strongly” with the following statement -“I don’t attend religious services”.
Sherrill’s study of gay voters -gay voters, not the general gay population- in 2004 found that gays were more than 2x as likely to never attend church as hetero voters.
Does never attending church translate into hating religion? Not quite but it is indicative… and I think looking closely at GayLeft websites and exit polling results help us better understand how deep that animosity toward religion might run the the general gay population.
The bigger question is why. It’s one I’d love to hear BAS explain given his experiences in both worlds.
Michigan-Matt, a liar who says he’s a “moderate” when his track record on the Internet shows he’s just another self-hating wingnut like his buddies North Liar Forty and Matt Sanchez, asks why most gays don’t go to church.
Well, M-M, unlike you, who’d like nothing more than to be a closeted homosexual priest with “benefits,” most gays long ago gave up on Christian churches when they made it clear that they regard homosexuality as (in the words of M-M’s hero, the Nazi Cardinal Ratzinger cum Pope Benedict) “objectively disordered.”
M-M worship that if you want. But don’t expect a whole lot of company.
posted by Bobby on
Ashpenaz, most young people want to be with other young people, so who’s exploiting whom? Craiglist is full of ads of 18 to 25 year old men looking for a sugar daddy. If they where so innocent, they would be looking for love, not some old fart with enough money to pay their bills.
Nobody is really that innocent at 18.
You want to talk about exploitation? Talk about all those predatory priests that abused all those boys and got away with it. How nice that all those boys where “safe” in the church. Yes, the same priests that rail against same-sex marriage and against openly gay teachers had no problem doing horrible things to the parishioners that trusted them.
Or what about Rev. Haggard? Big shot leader of the evangelical movement who got exposed by his own male hooker, not only as gay but as a meth user.
The gay community you hate so much is a lot more honest than your religious movement. Perhaps a little too honest, we’re not like your breeder friends that take out a girl, get to know her, spend 3 months courting her, only to fuck her and never see her again. In our gay world, it’s a lot quicker. There’s no pretense, no deception, no lies.
In breederville, a married man goes to the strip bar and then to the champagne room to get a $500 blowjob. In gayville, a gay couple discusses monogamy, whether to have a 3-some or bring porn into the bedroom.
In breederville, men don’t get tested for HIV because they think it’s a gay disease, or they say that if they have HIV, they don’t want to know.
In the gay world, every responsible gay man gets tested every 6 months.
In breederville, women think being on the pill is safe-sex. In the gay world, you need to be high or crazy to have unsafe sex.
If you hate the gay world so much, fine, go and be breeder. But since you can’t, you’re stuck with us, whether you like it or not.
And by the way, I do have faith, the reason I have faith is because I don’t give a shit what religious people think about me or God. I’m a former religious studies major, I know enough, I don’t need some stupid church to lecture me on matters of faith.
posted by twocents on
“Christians love looking down at gays and feeling superior to us. That’s why they want to “save” marriage and keep us out of the military. In fact, to a christian coming out is really bad. They hate us because we make our “sins” public. There’s no adultery parade, or murder parade, or burglary parade…”
Bobby, this isn’t true. I appreciate the open and sane dialog here so I’m suggesting that this be explored a bit further. Regardless of the many areas where a lot of Religious Churches are wrong in their approach, your statements (mostly) miss the mark.
Perhaps a lot of Christians look down on gays, but not to feel superior. It’s more from the sin angle. The great respect for marriage and the military doesn’t come from a hate of gays. That is way off. (The respect for marriage and the military is a lengthy subject). A closer look will show that most Christians are very familiar with coming out, in many areas. Hate is too strong a word for making sins public. Fear would be closer and respect for the Creator and the Christian Bible. And there is a parade. Whoa yeah. A big parade. The clothes one wares, where they go, profanity, smoking, divorce, illegitimacy, abortion, to name a few.
There are those who hate. On all sides. Regardless of right, wrong, sin… hate as an option is a sad thing.
Speaking of your statement though, it isn’t accurate. “Some” doesn’t equal “all” and a closer look will shed some light on other areas.
Just because one is gay doesn’t mean they can’t understand the importance of marriage and military.
This doesn’t cover properly or in scope but I hope we can look at things a bit more and have better understanding.
posted by Pat on
“I’m gay, I just don’t like men”. Nawh, doesn’t work, does it? Nice try… it allows the few to define “faith” as something they possess but don’t use. They might be good moral agents, but I doubt they have faith. If they did, they’d be down on their knees seeking forgiveness from God… and She wouldn’t let them cop-out that easy.
MichiganMatt, it sounds like it wouldn’t work for you, but not necessarily for others. It sounds implausible that you NEED to go to church in order to have faith, but I’ll take your word for it.
Bobby, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head why most people, gay or straight, don’t go to church. Nevertheless, I still toy with the idea of going back to church, not because I need someone to tell me how to have faith, but for the community aspect. I was born Catholic, but at this point, I can’t join a church which still views homosexuality as a sin.
Thanks for the support, Bobby! Also, wow, I didn’t know all that bad stuff about religious people!! Thanks for opening my eyes! If only I’d known the church was full of sinners, even at the highest level, I’d never have faith. I’ll be sure give more time to a perfect community which has never exploited young people and which hasn’t spread disease or ever done any bad thing ever–see you at the bathhouse!
That was clever Ashpenaz, but I don’t think Bobby ever said the gay community was perfect.
As a disciple of the living Jesus, I hope to only have sex with the person He brings into my life to be my partner. No one else–you see, it’s not about my pleasure, it’s about God’s pleasure.
Nice try, Ashpenaz. It may or may not be about God’s pleasure, but it’s what YOU want. God gave us brains to think for ourselves. Take responsibility for your choices, and not make them someone else’s.
OK, this is all true–and I’m sure this is pretty much what Azariah believes, too. How much support are we going to find for that at the next Pride parade?
I think the jury is still out on what Azariah believes (or practices) regarding relationships.
Well, M-M, unlike you, who’d like nothing more than to be a closeted homosexual priest with “benefits,”
Would you care to cite evidence for that?
posted by Ashpenaz on
Christians believe sex is like global warming. In the same way the planet doesn’t belong to us, our body does not belong to us–both are gifts from God, and we are meant to be wise stewards. In the same way we can’t simply use the planet for our own pleasure, we can’t use our body for our own pleasure–our pleasure has to be in line with God’s intention for the planet and our body. To deal with global warming and sexuality, we need to make choices which involve giving up immediate pleasure for the greater good.
I’m sure that sounds like gibberish to you–it’s impossible to tranlate into Pride rally words. In fact, I don’t think there is a gay term for “personal sacrifice.”
Hmmm, I bet that if you did a little research, say at the local park or rest stop, you might find older gays exploiting younger gays in ways that priests could only hope to emulate.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
O/T and I’m sorry for that…
Pat, thanks for asking ChasWilson to defend his wild assertions with some proof… of course, he won’t; he can’t; he never does.
His comments are just demeaning, slanderous assertions which don’t even rise to the level of an opinion in civil discourse. Like many others here, you just have to learn to ignore ChasWilson… the chip on his shoulder is the size of the Rocky Mountains.
He’s insanely mad at GOPers.
He’s irrationally mad at the LCRs.
He’s obsessed about MattSanchez’s success and accomplishment at turning around his life.
He’s mad at Bush.
He’s mad at NorthDallas30 for past, present and future comments.
He’s just an angry, bitter guy who’s decided to strike out at anyone who questions his wild assertions. He does it here, he does it at other sites, he stalks his targets onto other sites and starts all the hate, bile and spew in those threads that have nothing to do with topic at hand.
He’s pretty much beyond the reason and rationalizing point… it’s a pity because his life experiences seem to indicate he’d have wisdom to share with all on a host of important issues. Instead, it’s just spiteful meanness, 24×7.
posted by Charles Wilson on
Michigan Matt, now who’s “obsessed?” Ha!
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Back O/T now…
Pat offers “MichiganMatt, it sounds like it wouldn’t work for you, but not necessarily for others. It sounds implausible that you NEED to go to church in order to have faith, but I’ll take your word for it.”
With respect, I didn’t say that. I said that people who claim to have “faith” really don’t… if they did, they’d be acting in a manner which supports religion, in a manner that follows that faith and in a manner in which their conduct changes society for the betterment of the community. One of true faith doesn’t stop at finding a religious community of fellow believers because their church’s response to them is somehow flawed… ot inadequate. They look elsewhere because their inner faith demands them to be a part of the greater good. Not just couch potatoes saying they have “faith” but care not to practice it.
Can you be a good moral agent and not have faith? Sure. Can you be a despicable immoral church goer? Sure… but they don’t have faith. Faith doesn’t occur because you go to church; but it sure isn’t there if you abstain from participating in a religious community… one’s faith compells them to belong to a community of believers… going to church doesn’t get you faith like a punch-card discount coupon at the local diner for 12 meals in a month.
I offered that having faith but not attending church is like being gay and not liking men…or “I’m a good citizen but I don’t pay taxes or vote”… there is a fundamental disconnect between the two claims and actions.
I can understand why folks like to claim to have “faith” but hate organized religion; it helps them temper the disconnect. I can understand how people without faith can be very good moral agents in society; I think that’s even advantageous to some societies.
But on your point about me saying that one NEEDS to go to church in order to have faith… I didn’t. I said if you have faith, you’ll be in church… and not claiming you got it as a self-gratifying hedge-bet in case the ol’ death bed gets made up before one is ready.
There’s a big difference… and in that difference lies redemption and grace. Whether Christian, Islamic, Jewish, Buddist or Deist.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
ChasWilson asks: “Michigan Matt, now who’s “obsessed?”
Easy to answer, you are. Still. Iwas responding to Pat’s comment.
posted by Ashpenaz on
I believe that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist, which means I have to go to church, since that’s the only place where validly ordained priests consecrate the elements. My relationship with Jesus forces me to be at the same altar rail with people I find incredibly boring. I’m also not a relativist. I’m an inclusivist–like Stephen Colbert, I believe there are many paths to the One True God revealed in Jesus. I believe that God completely expressed Himself in His Incarnation, and while I have respect for other religions, I don’t think God left anything out when He revealed Himself in Jesus. Other religions, while good, are partial and incomplete.
To be in touch with God, you need to be in touch with the Incarnation which is present in the sacraments which are distributed by Jesus’ apostles and their successors in a validly ordained priesthood. So, yes, if you have faith, you have to go to church.
posted by Casey on
Michigan-Matt, I almost hate to disagree with you because I suspect we are largely on the same side here, but I’m pretty sure that an authentic Christian faith does not require church attendance – think to the samaritan woman who challenged Jesus about the theological differences between her people and the Jews in terms of what mountain to worship on, and his response that soon it would not matter where they worshiped, only that they worship in spirit and in truth. There are some gay people who live in places where the only available churches are toxic environments where it simply isn’t spiritually safe for them to be… there are others who have been so wounded that entering any church at all is a challenge, yet still they pray to the Lord in the privacy of their homes and their hearts. Christians have often wandered alone through deserts, and God knows and sees them still. It is a hard, hard road – and yes, many people who claim to be “spiritual” evince no evidence of such, and certainly no reliance on any concrete faith, being unable to articulate such – but there are Christians out there who are part of the Church as Body of Christ, but who do not set foot within institutions. Rather than condemn them, we should pray for them, and love them as brothers. Take care.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Casey, thanks for insight about praying for those of the “faithful” who have departed from or no longer attend church… but I think, you too, missed my point and restated in a fundamentally different way.
I didn’t say that (your words) “…I’m pretty sure that an authentic Christian faith does not require church attendance”.
In fact, I pointed out –to the Bobbys of the world– that there are a lot of immoral, unjust people who attend church.
It isn’t a question of faith REQUIRING church attendance… people of faith will, by the volition of their compelling faith, be IN a church. And they won’t stop from finding a faith-based community just because of impediments society tosses up in the face. And, if of true faith, won’t be inclined to demean religion or other beliefs.
Of course, like I mentioned earlier… there are a few exceptions. People to frail to leave their home… maybe watch it on TV. People in intolerant societies, listen on the radio or correspond. A political prisoner in a Chinese jail might work to identify other prisoners who share a faith-based belief. Etc.
It’s not that religion requires people of faith to attend service (although some do) that makes a person faith-filled. But if they are faith-filled, they’ll find a community in which to worship. Practicing that faith in community is a compelling force equivalent for some to mental survival.
posted by Casey on
Respectfully Matt, I think I did get your point – just disagree with it. The only thing I think true faith will compel a person to is a relationship with God. Church attendance is a means to that end, not an end in itself. Yes, fellowship is the ideal – it is best to learn the scriptures in an environment where you receive outside eyes… the Spirit often works to hold us accountable through the words of our friends… and yes, the Body of Christ is always more than a single individual. It is good to be in Church.
But there are believers who are not in a church setting, and who have a strong relationship with God, and that is how He has called them to Himself. Think of the people in hermitages, or the lone missionary out in the field with no access to a radio or any of the other substitutes you posit (and a cringe to think that anybody actually believes TV is a substitute for communal worship). There is nowhere we can go and be apart from God if we believe – and that’s all that matters.
It occurs to me, given Ash’s comments about the Eucharist, that we may be running up against a theological divide here – I believe in the priesthood of believers, and the sufficiency of grace which means that a Christian needs no mediator between himself and his Lord. If you come from a background that believes in the necessity of a particularly blessing for communion as a sacrament, then it makes a lot of sense that we’d be talking past each other. Either way, good talking to you.
posted by Pat on
But on your point about me saying that one NEEDS to go to church in order to have faith… I didn’t. I said if you have faith, you’ll be in church… and not claiming you got it as a self-gratifying hedge-bet in case the ol’ death bed gets made up before one is ready.
I get your point now about not needing to go to church in order to have faith. I did miss it the first time around. However, I still disagree with you that it follows that a person of faith will attend church. We agree that, of course, a person going to church does not imply he is a person of faith. But I will also say that this is irrelevant as to whether or not a person of faith attends church, in case my previous post implied that.
I offered that having faith but not attending church is like being gay and not liking men…or “I’m a good citizen but I don’t pay taxes or vote”… there is a fundamental disconnect between the two claims and actions.
I get the analogy, but I don’t think it applies here. I believe a more apt analogy is where a person is gay, but they may or may not act on it by having sex with men.
But Casey made a good point. If you, Ashpenaz, and others believe in your faith you are compelled (or some other appropriate word) to take part in the Eucharist and be a part of a community who believes as you do, I understand your argument, even though I still disagree with it. Different faiths have different requirements.
Christians believe sex is like global warming. In the same way the planet doesn’t belong to us, our body does not belong to us–both are gifts from God, and we are meant to be wise stewards. In the same way we can’t simply use the planet for our own pleasure, we can’t use our body for our own pleasure–our pleasure has to be in line with God’s intention for the planet and our body.
If you are putting conditions on this “gift” from God, then it’s not really a gift. In any case, everyone has their own belief as to what God’s intention is for the planet and our bodies. So as I suggested above, it really comes down do personal responsibility.
To deal with global warming and sexuality, we need to make choices which involve giving up immediate pleasure for the greater good.
I agree with that. But like global warming, there are different thoughts as to how one should properly act on their sexuality.
I believe that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist, which means I have to go to church, since that’s the only place where validly ordained priests consecrate the elements. My relationship with Jesus forces me to be at the same altar rail with people I find incredibly boring. I’m also not a relativist. I’m an inclusivist–like Stephen Colbert, I believe there are many paths to the One True God revealed in Jesus. I believe that God completely expressed Himself in His Incarnation, and while I have respect for other religions, I don’t think God left anything out when He revealed Himself in Jesus. Other religions, while good, are partial and incomplete.
Ashpenaz, I have no problem with someone believing that their faith and their religion is the best. But there are people of other religions and faiths who believe the same about their religion, and believe that Christianity is partial and incomplete.
To be in touch with God, you need to be in touch with the Incarnation which is present in the sacraments which are distributed by Jesus’ apostles and their successors in a validly ordained priesthood. So, yes, if you have faith, you have to go to church.
But that’s only if they have the same faith as you do. Most people do not believe what you believe. And I question even if the majority of faithful Christians (or Catholics) believe as you do.
posted by Ashpenaz on
Here’s the point–if they don’t believe it, then they’re wrong. Either God became incarnate in Jesus, or He didn’t–but if He did, then Jesus is all we need to know about God. Jesus said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” I take Him at His word–when I see Jesus, I see God. Why do I need to look at anyone else? When Jesus hands out the bread and wine, He says, “This is My Body, This Is My Blood.” That’s either true or not. If you don’t see the Father when you see Jesus, or it’s just bread and wine to you, then you’re just wrong. And that’s OK–but it’s one or the other.
Here’s the thing–being gay does not mean I have to be a religious pluralist. I don’t think all religions are equal. I think Jesus is the full revelation of God and other religions aren’t. I’m nice enough to be an inclusivist. But being gay does not limit my faith to relativism or pluralism.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Casey, with respect, I don’t think you did get my point because you took the statement and reversed it. You disagreed with your inaccurate restatement of my point.
I think from Pat’s commentary, it’s clear that Pat misunderstood the point and now understands what I was writing.
Frankly, whether or not one believes in a mediator or (dare I say it) mediatrix being critical to finding God, the point is that one’s faith leads one to act, leads one to a faith-based community of fellow believers. My point was originally focused on those here who bashed religion and offered that they had “faith”. They don’t. No more than a Baptist precher engaging in adultery with a hooker in a trailer park. Or a minister who uses his Church like a personal wealth enrichment program or a political platform.
I did offer that there are a few rare exceptions to the notion that people of faith will be compelled to find that community… Casey, you added to my exceptions the case of a hermit… right, fairly rare.
People with faith aren’t required to attend church… we agree on that point.
I think those of us in evidence of faith have allowed lots of others to grab the “I got faith” button when their actions, their lives, their conduct prove otherwise. For some of them, I think it’s a little like hedging their bets in case they one day come to regret their faithlessness in front of God.
And I don’t think God is going to say, “Oh, right. You said you had faith. Silly me, come on in”. I think She’s going to be pissed and more than the money changers’ table will get overturned.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Ashpenaz, I hate to have to tell you this but the God of your religion is also the God of the Jews and Muslims. al Lah, YHVH. Your Jesus-centered perspective isn’t generally shared by those who are scholars or students of religion.
He’s also my God and I think he pre-dates man.
posted by Ashpenaz on
I agree, Michigan-Matt–The God of my religion is the God of all religions–God became Incarnate in Jesus. All religions are a preparation for the Incarnation. Everything true about God in every religion is Incarnate in Jesus. That’s a fundamental Anglican and Roman Catholic understanding. You need to read up on inclusivism.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Ash, thanks for the suggestion. Over at our Church, we do the Trinity thing… pretty big. Three separate godheads, all equal. Ever heard of it?
posted by Bobby on
Hey twocents, I’ve spent a lot of time in conservative forums and evangelical websites, that’s where I get my insights.
“Perhaps a lot of Christians look down on gays, but not to feel superior. It’s more from the sin angle.”
—The good ones will say “we’re all sinners” and not judge you. The bad ones will judge. What Christians seem to hate is “open sinfulness.” Kinda like ultra-orthodox jews in Israel, they usually leave you alone, but if you drive a car in their neighborhood on Saturday, they’ll throw stones at your car. When gays buy a house in a “family-friendly” neighborhood, they can experience harassment, even if they keep to themselves.
“A closer look will show that most Christians are very familiar with coming out, in many areas.”
—They’re familiar with coming out as Christians, they’re familiar with the animosity and discrimination Christians experience in secular areas. But they don’t learn from that discrimination, they simply do unto others what others do unto them. In a way, we’re all like that to an extent.
posted by Bobby on
“In the same way the planet doesn’t belong to us,”
—Actually, it does. Read Genesis again, God specifically commands us to take control of the planet. It’s only liberal theology that sees it as environmentalism.
“In the same way we can’t simply use the planet for our own pleasure, we can’t use our body for our own pleasure–”
—Then you can’t be gay, and if you have straight sex, you can’t enjoy it, it has to be exclusively for procreation. I read of one evangelical couple where an older woman decided to stop having sex with her husband since she could no longer bear children.
This is insanity, God supports sexual fun, look at King Salomon, he had what? 700 wives? I doubt he had intelligent conversations with all of them.
“I don’t think there is a gay term for “personal sacrifice.””
—Sure, and what do you say to those couples where one is HIV- and the other is positive, and the negative stays in the relationship after the positive gets really sick? You don’t think that’s a personal sacrifice? Or what about gays who lose everything after coming out? You don’t think they are sacrificing something?
“Hmmm, I bet that if you did a little research, say at the local park or rest stop, you might find older gays exploiting younger gays in ways that priests could only hope to emulate.”
—If that was the case, there would be a rest stop scandal, or a local park scandal, but that’s not the case. While public sex is disgusting, it’s rare, and it rarely affects any minors. I also find it offensive how you diminish the catholic sex scandal and the things those horrible people did. As for bath houses, have you ever been to one? I have, most of the men there are older, you’re lucky to find someone who’s 25. Why? Because young people don’t need to go to seedy places to find sex. They can find it online or offline in normal areas.
Now, if you think it’s exploitation for a 45 year old guy to hit on a 22 year old guy at a gay bar, you’re out of it. Everyone is fair game at a gay bar, even straight people. The gay community exploits no one, it’s people that choose to put themselves in situations, like the ones who get high with strangers.
posted by Ashpenaz on
At our church, we believe in the Nicene Creed–One God in Three Persons. We also believe in Chalcedon–Jesus is fully God and fully man. I’m not sure which heresy your church is using–is it modalism or tritheism or docetism? You might want to check.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Well, it’s been a bit since Azariah forged ahead and came into the light… of more scorn and hostility from the anti-religionist gays than from the “predicted” hostility and ostracism by Christians.
He’s still the host and producer of his “The Remix Show” in Nashville. He’s not noticed an uptick in bombs planted near his door, cold shoulders turned while at Church or hatefilled emails.
He’s basically the same guy and he’s producing the same show he did before his announcement.
Pat Robertson has spewed or hurled chunks. The Nashville-based Christian music industry isn’t worried. Azariah Southworth only worry now is getting flamed by a group of rabid anti-religionists who see him as a sell-out (like over at JoeMyGod).
Hmmm. isn’t that special?