In Virginia, some public school educrats are making sure that the threat of a lesson in tolerance toward gays and their families remains firmly in check:
A children's book about two male penguins that hatch and parent a chick was pulled from library shelves in Loudoun County elementary schools this month after a parent complained that it promoted a gay agenda. The decision by Superintendent Edgar B. Hatrick III led many parents and gay rights advocates to rush to the penguins' defense.... The book, "And Tango Makes Three," by Justin Richardson and Peter Parnell, draws on the real-life story of Roy and Silo, two chinstrap penguins at the Central Park Zoo in New York. It also appears to make a point about tolerance of alternative families.
School authorities in the Old Dominion might ponder this tragic cautionary tale from California's public school hell:
Ventura County prosecutors charged a 14-year-old boy with the shooting death of a classmate Thursday and said the killing in an Oxnard classroom was a premeditated hate crime....
[C]lassmates of the slain boy, Lawrence King, said he recently had started to wear makeup and jewelry and had proclaimed himself gay. Several students said King and a group of boys, including the defendant, had a verbal confrontation concerning King's sexual orientation a day before the killing.
I recognize there is no direct link between these stories, but they do, once again, raise issues regarding life (or death) for gay students in "public" schools, where children without parents of independent means (or the willingness to devote a substantial part of their savings to private education) will find themselves trapped.
And, being government schools, they are always going to be subject to political whims. Pro-gay progressives can go too far in trying to incorporate lessons into the curriculum that parents of conservative religious faith will consider an assault on their values. On the other hand, where social conservatives hold sway, even the hint of recognition toward "alternative" relationships and families can be forbidden. Such obtuseness doesn't always lead to hate-motivated murder, it just adds to the general climate of gays being treated as "queer" and unworthy of legal or social equality.
Probably, only when we end government discrimination against gay relationships (the marriage ban) will government schools stop treating gays and our families as something unsavory.
85 Comments for “School Daze”
posted by Richard on
On Guns; No right is absolute, if the 2nd Amendment does protect an individual right then it will be subject to all sorts of regulations, limitations and procedures.
Frankly, the 1st Amendment is probably the most ’embarassing’ part of the court’s rulings, when it comes to candidate ballot access.
Schools — public or private — are going to be subjected to political whims. As long as their are few — if any — openly LGBT teachers and students and as long as malicious name calling and bullying is tolerated, then school will continue to be hell for many.
posted by Bobby on
I feel sorry for Lawrence King, but let’s face it, you’re gonna wear makeup and expect people not to pick on you? You’re gonna expect teachers to protect you when they’re not even allowed to carry guns on campus and when they have a history of ignoring anti-gay bullying? I’m assuming that school was full of teenage drug dealers, gang bangers, and the usual public school crap. Frankly, coming out in that environment is a bad idea.
It’s too bad his killers can’t get the death penalty. Instead, taxpayers in California will have to spend $20,000 to $50,000 a year to put the killer in jail. I can only hope his killers die in prison, in a cruel and violent way.
posted by Thomas on
Bobby, the boy was only 14 and I’m sure he expected to be picked on, but I don’t think he expected to be murdered for being out and proud. However, I do agree in the hopes that those killers get what they deserve.
posted by ColoradoPatriot on
“Larry King loved to sing songs by folk rock trio Crosby, Stills and Nash, and was studying “The Star-Spangled Banner” in hopes of singing it at his younger brother’s baseball games, his father said. “He had a very gifted singing voice.” He was so good, in fact, that one of Greg King’s friends ? unaware of the family’s tragedy ? called Wednesday to say his son should audition for “American Idol.””
Yep, he totally deserved to get his queer brains splattered all over Oxnard. Keep fighting the good fight Bobby!
posted by Jorge on
Let me see if I have this right: the thing that banning the gay penguin book and a gay hate crime have in common (beside the fact that they’re about gays) is a conservative snobbery that holds sway in public schools and oppresses free expression of people and families who are gay.
Eloquent, but a stretch. And it will remain a stretch until gay people start taking the real life-and-death, quality of life problems seriously and stop focusing on irrelevant issues like marriage.
By the point someone gets shot brain-dead, I think all this is irrelevant. They’re gonna put the killer away, and everyone else who is not quite insane enough not to shoot people will continue to get away with driving people to suicide.
posted by Bobby on
” the boy was only 14 and I’m sure he expected to be picked on, but I don’t think he expected to be murdered for being out and proud”
—In high school you can get beat up for any reason, for not being masculine enough, for being fat, for being ugly, for looking at someone the wrong way. I don’t know what King, did, maybe he starred at someone in the showers, maybe he made a pass at a straight boy, or maybe just by being himself, he pissed off the wrong people. Does the school have a Straight Gay Alliance? Coudln’t he have been a queen there? If you’re going to be out, and wear make up, and be a queen, you have to be able to protect yourself. High school is hell, it’s always been hell, ever seen Lean on Me? Mr. Clark got into a lot of trouble for expelling a bunch of drug dealers and other hoodlums. Too many liberals think that even the scum of society deserve an education. This is a lesson to us all, a lesson of what happens when we tolerate people too dangerous to go to school. I hope all gay teenagers learn how to defend themselves, because in this crappy world, they need to.
posted by Jorge on
I just love the idea of gays bringing guns to school and forming street gangs to protect themselves from anti-gay violence.
Of course, eventually they’d become gun-toting, drug-dealing adults, and then where would we be? Oh no, we can’t let the young people run the revolution. Better for us to let them suffer miserably in silence.
posted by Ashpenaz on
When I was in junior high, I had a friend who caused quite a stir when he answered the door in a dress. This story went around the school quickly. He was also the first person to show me gay porn. He also explained to me how he practiced anal sex on his younger brother. I also remember this guy telling me about a recent sexual counter (this was later, when we were around sixteen) where he said, “We did it so hard, my ass was bleeding!” I didn’t see any of the older gays helping him avoid AIDS or avoid exploitation. In fact, the guy who made his ass bleed was a prominent older member of the gay community who wrote letters to the editor about gay right. This was not even my Bowie-dressing alcoholic friend–this friend became a hairdresser and moved to Minneapolis.
Where were the older gay mentors advising this confused kid or the confused victim in this story about his behavior? Were they in the usual place, waiting in cars to abuse him and throw him out? We all know there is a large part of the gay community who would rather have a confused kid in makeup being easy meat rather than support “abstinence-only” programs for gay teens to help them make good choices about their sexuality. Once again, the gay community is complicit in this poor kid’s death.
posted by Bobby on
“He also explained to me how he practiced anal sex on his younger brother”
—That’s shocking! Sex with your brother? What did you tell him?
“Where were the older gay mentors advising this confused kid or the confused victim in this story about his behavior?”
—At the Gay and Lesbian Community Center, at Gays Of African Descent, at HRC, at GLSEN, at Proyect Yes, should I go on? The resources are there. And by the way, when I was 14, I was living in Venezuela, the only good information I got about gays was from the movie Philadelphia and the Dream On HBO series. And unlike your friend, I didn’t have sex with my sister or cousins. Just hookers like everyone else. Your friend must have been mentally insane to have sex with his own brother. Incest is a very creepy thing to do.
“Abstinence-only” programs don’t work well for straights, much less gays. I find it ironic how many “abstinence” girls have no problem giving blow jobs and handjobs, even getting f-cked in the rear. Honest sex education, with an emphasis in condoms and graphic pictures of sexual diseases is what works.
Either way, it’s very tricky to deal with anyone under 18, their parents are still responsible for them, you might need to get their parents permission before you talk to them. Even Big Brothers/Big Sisters doesn’t want any gays involved in their organization, and if any are involved, they’re not supposed to talk about sexuality.
If I’m a gay teacher, I have to respect the wishes of the parents. If I don’t, I could have the entire community rise against me.
We can’t blame the gay community for everything, Ashpenaz. There are a lot of factors involved. The fact is that young gays today have a lot of resources I didn’t have while growing up. If they don’t use those resources that’s their problem. The reality is that most kids think they know everything, so most of them learn by getting hurt.
posted by Ashpenaz on
When I heard about what he did with his brother, I, too, was 14, and I really had no idea what to think. Also, I was having my own abuse problems at the time. What bothers me is that he talked about it freely to everyone in our little group and I’m sure he must have told any number of the older gays hanging around. For instance, the guy who caused his ass to bleed must have asked him where he learned to do that. I think that when his father found out, he kicked him out. How homophobic!
The point of abstinence only programs has to do with self-respect. If you respect yourself and your body, you make better choices. If you wait until you are an adult and in a long-term relationship, you have much less risk for exploitation and disease. There is no one telling gay kids that. There is also no one telling kids that 14 years old is not the time to be flamboyantly out ‘n proud–most of that is teenage rebellion, not sexuality. I’m not sure why the gay community is so afraid that 14 year olds might wait until they are adults to identify as gay and have sex–are older gays afraid that exploitation and abuse of young men will be that much harder?
Gays are complicit in this young man’s death for not offering him the guidance he needed to deal with his sexuality in ways appropriate to his age.
posted by Hank on
The “older gay mentors” you speak of Ash would have been thrown in jail, had they gone against the kid’s parent’s wishes, and tried to counsel him. Not every gay person, besides you of course, is evil and uncaring.
posted by Richard on
Abstience-only programs tell LGBT youth, “No sex until marriage and we are not going to let you get married.” Not a great public health choice.
Their are many fine LGBT-youth based social services, albeit they often exist in large urban cities and are not always easy to find (pre-net).
Could we do better? What would you suggest? What have you been doing?
posted by Brian Miller on
Eloquent, but a stretch. And it will remain a stretch until gay people start taking the real life-and-death, quality of life problems seriously and stop focusing on irrelevant issues like marriage.
Marriage equality is a “real, life-and-death quality of life issue” for many. For those who want to protect their families, it’s a big deal — especially when it comes to life-and-death issues like health care and quality of life issues like taxation, property ownership/distribution, decision-making on another’s behalf, etc.
It’s also a quality of life issue for people who aren’t married and don’t intend to be. As long as the legal regime in America declares that gay people are second class citizens — permanently — the climate of contempt that creates will remain embedded in every interaction you have with a non-gay person.
Incidentally, the entire penguin book thing underscores how government schools aren’t about “education,” but rather the political demands of people who have little to no interest in children’s education. Richard ETJB claims that “there will always be politics in public schools,” and he’s right (for a change) — there always will be. That’s one of the main reasons why students from public schools perform so poorly — 90% of their “education” is conservatives and leftists alike fighting over what facts about life and society they “may not” be taught lest it harm their fragile little minds.
posted by Pat on
I feel sorry for Lawrence King, but let’s face it, you’re gonna wear makeup and expect people not to pick on you?
Not only should it be expected, it should be demanded.
You’re gonna expect teachers to protect you when they’re not even allowed to carry guns on campus and when they have a history of ignoring anti-gay bullying?
Yep, you’re damn right I expect it as well. I honestly don’t think Lawrence King carrying a gun would have helped him anyway.
I’m assuming that school was full of teenage drug dealers, gang bangers, and the usual public school crap. Frankly, coming out in that environment is a bad idea.
The problem is the environment. But under those circumstances, I would have advised against King coming out and wearing makeup.
High school is hell, it’s always been hell, ever seen Lean on Me? Mr. Clark got into a lot of trouble for expelling a bunch of drug dealers and other hoodlums. Too many liberals think that even the scum of society deserve an education. This is a lesson to us all, a lesson of what happens when we tolerate people too dangerous to go to school.
I went to public high school (the same as the current ED of the ACLU), and despite the homophobia, it was pretty safe and overall, a positive experience for me. Even the most flamboyant gay guy in my class fared okay enough. The worst that happened to him (as far as I know) was people asking him which side of the Girls Show he was going to be on and crap like that. There was little incidents of physical bullying of students, and apparently was expected.
As for Joe Clark, I supported most of what he was trying to do in the Paterson, NJ high school. His problem was, besides people trying to undermine him, he was a demagogue. It made it harder to expect students to follow rules when Clark sometimes had a problem following them as well. Too bad when he left, he wasn’t replaced with someone who possessed the positive qualities Clark had. I live in the city adjacent to Paterson, and from what I understand, both of the public high schools (especially Clark’s old school) are pretty bad.
I do agree that the hoodlums and the gangs need to be expelled from school. It’s bad enough they have no interest in learning, but it’s intolerable when they impede others and make it unsafe at school. When school officials determine that these individuals need to stay in school, they are also determining that the other students don’t deserve to learn.
They’re gonna put the killer away, and everyone else who is not quite insane enough not to shoot people will continue to get away with driving people to suicide.
Excellent point, Jorge. I think people simply want to have the perpetrator executed or put away for a long time and forget about it until the next tragedy. Forgetting for the moment that he is also a child, and even assuming such a sentence is the right thing, then what? Too many people don’t want to know what caused a 14-year-old to shoot someone for wearing makeup. They don’t want to wonder if their anti-gay bigotry that they continue to foster to kids MAY have lead this 14-year-old to somehow think it was okay to shoot someone because he was (or simply perceived) to be gay.
There is also no one telling kids that 14 years old is not the time to be flamboyantly out ‘n proud
Actually, the real problem is there are still too many teens who don’t learn that you simply leave these “flamboyantly out ‘n proud” 14-year-olds the hell alone if you don’t like the flamboyant behavior.
The point of abstinence only programs has to do with self-respect. If you respect yourself and your body, you make better choices.
I’m not sure what the point of abstinence only programs are. And I’m not sure how much self-respect has to do with it, especially for boys. Teens have sex because they like sex and it feels good, and don’t give a crap of the consequences at the time.
I agree that children shouldn’t have sex until they’re at least 18. It’s not clear that abstinence only programs help in that regard.
are older gays afraid that exploitation and abuse of young men will be that much harder?
Aside from the news stories here and there, where are all these older gays? Are they all in Omaha?
posted by Hank on
One brief comment Mr. Miller – I can always tell someone who spends too much time in the right wing fever swamp by the way they refer to schools.
When you italicize “public”, and then refer to government schools, I know you’ve been drinking the right wing Kool-Aid.
Just a comment from a guy who grew up in a family of teachers… one of the reasons for the prosperity we have today is that our founders determined that a basic level of education should be available for free to every child. Yes there are lots of problems, and yes we should try new ideas. But making an education available to every child has been good for our country.
posted by Bobby on
“The point of abstinence only programs has to do with self-respect. If you respect yourself and your body, you make better choices.”
—Sex or the lack of sex has nothing to do with respecting your body or anything else. Sex helps a person discover himself, what he likes, what he doesn’t like, etc. It’s like an itch, and until you scratch it, it won’t go away. Denying sex is like denying basic human biology. It’s like never using a toilet, never drinking water. Eventually you’ll be angry all the time because you’re deprived and jealous of the world having sex around you. That’s why you need to have a lot of sex until you don’t need it anymore, until you can become picky about whom you’ll have sex with.
“If you wait until you are an adult and in a long-term relationship, you have much less risk for exploitation and disease.”
—Well, nobody’s arguing that teenagers should have sex with adults. A kid can’t exploit a kid. An adult can’t exploit an adult. Only in relationships where one partner is superior to the other does the posibility of exploitation exist.
“There is also no one telling kids that 14 years old is not the time to be flamboyantly out ‘n proud–most of that is teenage rebellion, not sexuality. I’m not sure why the gay community is so afraid that 14 year olds might wait until they are adults to identify as gay and have sex”
—It’s not rebellion. You’re only “confused” if you don’t know what you want and who you are. When I was 14, I was confused, I thought I was straight until I had sex with women and discovered I wasn’t. Many gays grew up repressed in high school, denying their feelings, pretending to be straight, it’s not picnic, it’s not fun, and if some kid is sure enough of himself to come out, I have no problem with that. Heterosexuals certainly don’t hide their orientations while growing up. Maybe being flamboyant is a problem for people who don’t want to attract attention, but you have to understand that some people aren’t afraid of that. A goth isn’t afraid of attracting attention, should they also be forced to dress like everyone else?
“Gays are complicit in this young man’s death for not offering him the guidance he needed to deal with his sexuality in ways appropriate to his age.”
—You can’t guide those who don’t seek guidance. That kid was pretty sure of himself, he didn’t see himself as abnormal or weird, he was proud, maybe he choosed not to notice how homophobic the school was, What was the gay community supposed to do for him? Are we expected to go to schools and single out gay kids for advice? You can’t blame gays for acts they didn’t commit.
Hey Pat, thanks for your comments. I agree with everything except this:
“I honestly don’t think Lawrence King carrying a gun would have helped him anyway.”
—It might have given him a fighting chance. Lots of straight kids bring guns to school for protection, not all of them are bad, they’re just simply afraid of being hurt. I don’t encourage it because it is a crime to do it, I don’t know what the rules are with pepper spray, or tasers, but I wouldn’t blame a kid who feared for his life and had to take whatever means necesary to protect it. I doubt Lawrence was shot right away, they probably threatened him, insulted him, and later on shot him. If he had had a weapon (gun, knife, pepper spray, baseball bat, whatever), he would have had a chance to use it.
posted by Priya Lynn on
Reality and the ideal may be two seperate things, but morally speaking there was absolutely nothing wrong with this kid wearing makeup to school. The evil was all in the others who oppressed him, attacked him, and eventually killed him. Let’s not forget that.
posted by Pat on
—It might have given him a fighting chance. Lots of straight kids bring guns to school for protection, not all of them are bad, they’re just simply afraid of being hurt. I don’t encourage it because it is a crime to do it, I don’t know what the rules are with pepper spray, or tasers, but I wouldn’t blame a kid who feared for his life and had to take whatever means necesary to protect it. I doubt Lawrence was shot right away, they probably threatened him, insulted him, and later on shot him. If he had had a weapon (gun, knife, pepper spray, baseball bat, whatever), he would have had a chance to use it.
Bobby, if Lawrence had a gun, yes, it’s possible he might have been able to prevent his own death. The problem is that his assailant obviously had no business having a gun, and somehow he was able to obtain one.
I have this image where schools allow students to bring weapons if they wish to “defend” themselves. It ain’t a pretty picture.
posted by Leo77 on
Ash stick to the facts of the case.
There’s no indication Lawrence King was a troubled or at-risk youth. No indication that he was on some downward spiral into depravity. By all indications he came from a loving and supportive home, he had friends within his school. He wasn’t running the streets, there’s no indication anybody was preying on him.
At 14 he was acting out with clothes and makeup, whether this was just a little experimentation or the sign of some some larger gender identity issue we’ll never know. It’s not obvious he or his parents or the school saw any of this as a big problem so how exactly would some “gay mentor” come to get involved isn’t obvious.
And as long as he wasn’t disruptive in the classroom what would be the reason to treat the situation as a problem? Don’t read more into King’s behavior than what was reported.
As you have argued in the past coming out is personal choice. Well if someone chooses to come out at 14 that’s their prerogative and they have a right to expect basic respect and common courtesy.
It’s not obvious from reports what the relationship was between King and his murderer. (who incidentally is a gawky looking white kid not a gang banger) Whether the shooting was part of a pattern of hostility or something not easily foreseen hasn’t been reported.
There have been reports that King may have expressed interest in his murderer which if true puts a certain spin on the situation.
The people responsible for this are those people who stoke hatred and fear of homosexuality to such a degree that a 15 year old would be driven to murder.
posted by Ashpenaz on
It would be interesting to see where this thread would go if this had been a proud, cross-wearing Christian out to save everyones’ soul who had been shot by an angry athiest classmate.
posted by Regan DuCasse on
So, you’re buying the ‘gay panic defense’ Ashpenaz?
Interest is violation by the logic of those who are homophobic.
As to your last lame assed speculation, the thread isn’t going to happen. Because proud-cross wearing Christians aren’t nearly and never HAVE been in the danger that gay and trans people have been. Regardless of their ages.
The mere existence of someone gay, regardless of how they express it or don’t is offensive and the sense of outrage against gay people is way, WAY out of proportion to consider it even rational.
The fact is Ashpenaz, this incident WASN’T what you speculate.
And FURTHER, Christians ARE always trying to convert the unwilling to BE Christian. And in the past have done so with brutal impunity.
At least a gay teenage isn’t trying to CONVERT or make someone gay, but simply to expect and accept that a person is and will be and it’s not at the expense of anything or anyone else’s safety and happniness or freedom. Period.
This is what a lot of the anti gay can’t and don’t appreciate, let alone Christians.
The second commandment of Christ didn’t make an exception for those who are gay. So in this, they even fail their own values.
A boy who likes make -up and girl’s accessories is FAR less harmless than another boy who could bring a gun to school and coldly shoot another human being right in the face.
But to hear the FRC, AFA, AFT, FOTF, ADF and other anti gay organizations tell it, it’s the former boy who is a danger to all of civilization.
If you want to see where a blog thread’s tone would go in the scenario you want, FIND one.
It’s just you’d be hard pressed to. And there are a lot more angry Christians out there willing to think that a gay kid is forfeit and the freedoms of all other gay people is too.
posted by Regan DuCasse on
BTW…some people are so stupid and primitive embeciles that they how they get provoked isn’t hard. When I was in high school, I provoked boys, just by being a GIRL!
I was tall, developing fast and had a hard time dealing with the wolfish behavior of boys and getting the school admin to do anything about it. Their ‘boys will be boys’ attitude made a lot of girls suffer.
Forunately, for me…my father was a probation officer and an amateur bodybuilder and boxer. I was a good athlete, so he taught me those skills. He didn’t care that I was a girl, much to the consternation of my step mom, but he cared that I was agile and strong and with the kind of upper body symmetry that could make me as strong as a man if I trained myself right.
So, I hurt some boys back then. Hurt them GOOD to their suprise. And I’d get suspended from school, even though I was defending myself.
At one point, my father was too ill to go to school during one of those situations.
My uncle, who was an investigator for the ACLU threatened the school with all kinds of litigation until they dealt with the harassment of girls and punishing them for their own defense. My uncle later told me he was proud of the big hematoma I raised on that boy’s face. It was the last time another boy touched me.
The thing is, children have to be taught empathy and respect for each other or there inevitably will be violence. Either in self defense or pique.
Either way, it’s not right and it’s preventable.
The Alliance Defense Fund, a Christian advocate group has been at the forefront of thwarting all legislation or legal options schools have for preventing these problems. As well as any other protective laws for gays and lesbians and transgendered.
They haven’t come up with any preventive or supportive ideas themselves. They just want to stop what they consider the ‘homosexual agenda’ permeating the schools.
I WAS a girl, a normal teen girl and got harassed and threatened by boys. The issue IS respect. And schools are always an opportunity to learn about people who are different. Or even classmates who are going through a profound change in their lives. That’s not a call to hurt them or bully, but LEARN.
The ADF isn’t even interested that children really learn about the real nature of being trans or gay. Well, why?
Why are they SO resistant to THIS issue more than any other that is a teaching moment in human progress?
After all, Christians can’t say or do anything new about the Bible and what it says.
But human beings have defied and conquered and made huge leaps with regard to each other for being brave about learning who we all really are and not limit ourselves to the primary basics from ancient societies.
After all, we’d still have slaves in this country. Women and gay people treated like children with no self determination or freedom at all.
All this is now, is another example of resistance to another REALITY about human behavior, lives and interaction. And underappreciating a previously silent and hidden part of ALL humanity.
At any rate, normal means nothing to people determined to see you as inferior because of what you are.
And only equal protection, standing and access would change that.
posted by Priya Lynn on
Ashpenaz said “It would be interesting to see where this thread would go if this had been a proud, cross-wearing Christian out to save everyones’ soul who had been shot by an angry athiest classmate.”.
Ashpenaz, with 75% of the U.S. prison population being Christina and .2% of it being atheist it is almost certainly to be the other way around if such a thing should happen.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
There’s no indication Lawrence King was a troubled or at-risk youth. No indication that he was on some downward spiral into depravity. By all indications he came from a loving and supportive home, he had friends within his school.
Which was why he was living here, of course.
Too many people don’t want to know what caused a 14-year-old to shoot someone for wearing makeup. They don’t want to wonder if their anti-gay bigotry that they continue to foster to kids MAY have lead this 14-year-old to somehow think it was okay to shoot someone because he was (or simply perceived) to be gay.
Given the number of times this doesn’t happen on a daily basis, they’re doing a rather rotten job, don’t you think?
My suggestion: focus on what matters, which is that one fourteen-year-old shot another at point-blank range in broad daylight with a teacher and numerous other students in the room.
posted by Bobby on
“It would be interesting to see where this thread would go if this had been a proud, cross-wearing Christian out to save everyones’ soul who had been shot by an angry athiest classmate.”
—I would defend him just the same. There’s no denying that Christians do experience harassment. But Christians also engage in harassment, in California there was a kid who had chosen to wear a t-shirt with a biblical verse against homosexuality, I suspect it was Leviticus 18:23. At first I was inclined to support his free speech rights, but then I realized that a goth can’t wear a “hail satan” t-shirt, so by that standard, I would support the school making a judgement call and forbidding him from wearing that t-shirt in school.
posted by Ashpenaz on
The reason older gays want 14 year olds to be out ‘n proud is so that they are easier to identify and thus exploit.
If older gays were truly concerned about young gay men, they would say the following things:
1. You don’t know at 14 whether or not you are gay. You won’t know for many years of understanding your emotions, so don’t identify as gay yet.
2. Sex is best in adult, long-term relationships– ideally, lifelong, sexually exclusive relationships. You don’t need to experiment. It’s OK to wait until you’re an adult and in a trusting relationship to have sex.
3. Drugs and drinking impair your ability to make wise choices. Don’t drink or use drugs.
4. Not every adult has your best interest at heart. Some people might want you to do things or say things you’re not ready for. Always discuss whatever anyone tells you with your parents. Your parents may not understand, but they love you. Listen to them until you are of age to make your own choices.
5. I’m in a wonderful relationship right now with a man my age and we’ve been together for a long time–you might know him as Matt Hughes’ brother. This is what the gay life is meant to be–don’t let anyone tell you different.
Which older gays are saying that to young gays? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
Any older gay who is not prepared to say these things to younger gays is complicit the abuse and death of young gays.
posted by Bobby on
“The reason older gays want 14 year olds to be out ‘n proud is so that they are easier to identify and thus exploit.”
—Look, you assuming that every teenager is a dumb idiot that’s gonna get exploited by the first old pervert he meets with money. It doesn’t work that way. It’s a stereotype.
“1. You don’t know at 14 whether or not you are gay. You won’t know for many years of understanding your emotions, so don’t identify as gay yet.”
—At 14 I knew I felt uncomfortable around my classmates. At 14 my classmates knew they liked women. Eventually they went to whorehouses, so did I. I hold the same standards for homosexuals and heterosexuals. If heterosexuals know they’re straight at 14, I’m gonna assume the same goes for most gays. Exceptions can be made for those who have a later puberty.
“Sex is best in adult, long-term relationships– ideally, lifelong, sexually exclusive relationships. You don’t need to experiment. It’s OK to wait until you’re an adult and in a trusting relationship to have sex.”
—Actually, you do need to experiment. You need to see what’s out there before you commit to something. It’s like buying a car, you try several models, you don’t just buy the first car you see. I know a straight man who’s 30 and still a virgin. You don’t know how pathetic his life is, he won’t even hire a hooker out of principle. So what does he do? He looks at porn, he goes to clubs and takes pictures of women, he goes to porn conventions, because he has yet to sleep with a woman he has the maturity of a 15 year old virgin. If he had experimented, he woudn’t be so pathetic. Even I can’t stand being friends with him anymore.
“3. Drugs and drinking impair your ability to make wise choices. Don’t drink or use drugs.”
—Well, they always say you should only get high with your friends. As for not drinking, there’s nothing wrong with getting really drunk once in a while. Everything in moderation.
“4. Not every adult has your best interest at heart. Some people might want you to do things or say things you’re not ready for. Always discuss whatever anyone tells you with your parents. Your parents may not understand, but they love you. Listen to them until you are of age to make your own choices.”
—I agree there. But also remember, your parents might be homophobic, they might ask you to date the opposite sex which is the worse thing you can do if you’re gay. Sometimes parents don’t have all the answers. Sometimes you come from a rich family where keeping up apperances is more important than being happy.
“5. I’m in a wonderful relationship right now with a man my age and we’ve been together for a long time–you might know him as Matt Hughes’ brother.”
—Good for you, but some of us have never had a relationship. What are we supposed to do? Live like budhist monks? Look, the gay community is way ahead of straights when it comes to sexuality. We offer thousands of options, from threesomes, dark rooms, orgies, to same sex marriage. Our hookers are cheaper, our clubs rarely have a cover, they rarely have a velvet rope, but if you go to a straight club, you better be bringing women or they won’t let you in. My point is that it’s heterosexist to assume that all gays must live a white picket fence lifestyle. I regret having advocated that in the past.
“Any older gay who is not prepared to say these things to younger gays is complicit the abuse and death of young gays.”
—We’re not more responsible than straights who advocate abstinence programs and then deal with pregnant girls. Conservatives and libertarians have always advocated personal responsability, that means that nobody’s responsible for you but you. Our community can only do so much.
posted by Karen on
“The reason older gays want 14 year olds to be out ‘n proud is so that they are easier to identify and thus exploit.”
You can keep saying it, but that doesn’t make it true. Get help, James.
posted by Pat on
Given the number of times this doesn’t happen on a daily basis, they’re doing a rather rotten job, don’t you think?
Thankfully, the harassment, bullying, and assaults doesn’t always lead to shooting and murder. But there is still too much bullying. So no, unfortunately, I don’t believe they’re doing a “rotten” job.
My suggestion: focus on what matters, which is that one fourteen-year-old shot another at point-blank range in broad daylight with a teacher and numerous other students in the room.
And that seems like exactly what we focus on. Waiting for the next time that this type of situation happens again and pretend that’s all there is to it.
“It would be interesting to see where this thread would go if this had been a proud, cross-wearing Christian out to save everyones’ soul who had been shot by an angry athiest classmate.”
—I would defend him just the same.
Yep. Bobby, that was a no-brainer, wasn’t it?
The reason older gays want 14 year olds to be out ‘n proud is so that they are easier to identify and thus exploit.
Ashpenaz, where are all these gay predators you keep talking about? Are they all in Omaha?
Which older gays are saying that to young gays? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
Well, I guess you do apparently. So that’s good. I personally don’t know any gay teens, but I would pretty much say the things you pointed out.
Any older gay who is not prepared to say these things to younger gays is complicit the abuse and death of young gays.
Well, here’s the thing. I don’t buy your statement. But for the sake of argument, let’s go with it for a moment. First, why is your condemnation only limited to older gay persons?
Shouldn’t all older persons be encouraging to young gay persons? Do you have the same condemnation for persons who not only don’t say these things to gay persons, but also coerce them to undergo “reparative” “therapy”? Also, with your frequent calls for gay people to fit your image of masculinity, are you complicit for the abuse and death of young gays who aren’t suitably masculine for you?
Your statement, if not so unfair and irresponsible, would be laughable.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
And that seems like exactly what we focus on. Waiting for the next time that this type of situation happens again and pretend that’s all there is to it.
QuakerJono had an excellent post over on his blog today, Pat, comparing the case of Lawrence King to that of Dakota DeRemus.
In my eyes, the two cases are the same. But guess which one got far more publicity?
Ashpenaz, where are all these gay predators you keep talking about? Are they all in Omaha?
No; there’s seemingly at least one in Massachusetts, married – surprise! — to a gay Episcopal priest.
posted by Pat on
QuakerJono had an excellent post over on his blog today, Pat, comparing the case of Lawrence King to that of Dakota DeRemus.
In my eyes, the two cases are the same. But guess which one got far more publicity?
I read it, and I agree. It is an excellent post. And I also agree with you, these cases are the same and equally tragic.
How many guesses do I get? Yeah, but unfortunately, the publicity didn’t help Lawrence King, and it’s not helping the gay teens, or other teens who continue to get bullied.
No; there’s seemingly at least one in Massachusetts, married – surprise! — to a gay Episcopal priest.
NDT, unfortunately, I’m sure there is at least one in every state. And I have no idea what your point is regarding the fact that this alleged scumbucket is married to a priest. But since the priest is married to a man, I guess it’s a safe bet that the priest is gay, again as if that matters.
My point is that Ashpenaz seems to think that there are all these older gays abusing gay teens. I wondered where he finds them all, besides stories you hear in the news here and there about spouses of priests or (retaliatory cheap shot alert) various Republican politicians. Seriously, I know a lot of gay people, and I don’t know any personally who prey on teens. Further, when I speak with them about it, they find the behavior unacceptable.
posted by Karen on
Pat, there’s no point in arguing with Ashpenaz about this. He believes that all of us and all of our friends and acquaintances that do not prey on young gay people and that insofar as we know any gay teens, act as good examples for them (if not subjecting them to the pompous, boring, and ineffective lecturing he details) – all of us are a teensy, weensy, tiny little fraction of the gay populace. We’re the exceptions that prove his delusional rule. As long as he refuses to get the help he needs, rational discussion will bounce off him like rain on a duck’s back.
posted by Hank on
Lawrence King got shot in the back of the head. Dakota DeRemus probably had a heart attack as a result of a fight.
Both tragedies…
But you think those are the same?
It sucks, doesn’t it ND30, when facts get in the way of your agenda.
posted by ColoradoPatriot on
Hank: “It sucks, doesn’t it ND30, when facts get in the way of your agenda.”
He hasn’t let that stop him yet.
posted by Pat on
But you think those are the same?
Yep. Sure, the exact details are different. For example, in Dakota’s case, he was bullied for two years. The bottom line is that both were needlessly assaulted, and both were killed directly as a result of that assault.
posted by Ashpenaz on
Many gays have moved from the parks and rest rooms to Gay.com. Online predators are a huge problem–one that I guess the gay community hasn’t gotten around to discussing with all those highways to adopt and homeless to feed. When was the last time the gay community stood up against the older gays who prey on teens using the Internet? Maybe we can get a series on Bravo–To Catch a Fabulous Predator.
Karen–give the address of NARTH for Gays and I’ll give them a call!
posted by Karen on
Again, you can keep saying it, Ashpenaz, but it doesn’t make it true. You don’t need “NARTH for Gays” – never mind the fact that the actual NARTH *is* aimed at gays, because I know what you mean.
You just need help. Try any therapist who isn’t involved with the actual NARTH or “reparative therapy” in general. Show them transcripts of your conversations here. Please.
posted by Grace on
In high school you can get beat up for any reason, for not being masculine enough, for being fat, for being ugly, for looking at someone the wrong way. I don’t know what King, did, maybe he starred at someone in the showers, maybe he made a pass at a straight boy, or maybe just by being himself, he pissed off the wrong people.
True. In high school, you can get beaten up for no reason at all. This is why there should be deterrents and actual follow-through to punish violent behavior, such as a no-tolerance policy for violence and bullying. You cause a disturbance… you’re out. Hoodlums and bullies shouldn’t be allowed to pollute an environment where people are supposed to get an education and better themselves in peace.
Also, let’s say that, hypothetically, this kid did make a pass at someone. So what? I’m a lesbian, and if a straight guy hits on me, I don’t fly into a rage and shoot him. I just say “Thanks, I’m flattered. But no thanks.”
School should be an environment where “the wrong people” that might get pissed off at something utterly stupid shouldn’t even be allowed to attend. These people are “the wrong people” for school.
posted by Priya Lynn on
The Dakota Remus incident and the Lawrence King incident are not the same. The bullies of Remus didn’t set out with the specific intention of killing him, it was involuntary manslaughter. The blind hatred of gays is what stood out in the King case, that someone hated gays so much that they wanted to and did kill one. Further differntiating the two cases is that in the King case society is somewhat complicit in this kind of violence against gays, society in many cases promotes the idea that gays are lesser, disgusting and evil. In the Remus case society accepts that there was nothing wrong with Remus and that that he was doing no harm – not the same situation when it comes to gays. That’s why the King case was a bigger story, it raises the issue of the culpability of a society that promotes negative attitudes towards gays.
And then there’s northdallas who can’t just condemn a wrong against gays, he’s got to do his best to diminish it and say it wasn’t as bad as people are making it out to be. People like him are the problem.
posted by Priya Lynn on
As we might well of expected, the anti-gay church that talks disingenously of “loving the sinner” and “condemning violence” against gays has been immorally silent on the killing of King:
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/18/1450#comments
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Well, Priya, this rather makes hypocritical the statements of another LGBT person about what LGBTs supposedly do:
I do not hold all Christians responsible for the likes of immoral “Christians” (such as Dobson, Phelps, LaBarbera, etc.). And I don’t hold all Christians responsible even if they don’t comment on these individuals. And I don’t hold Christians responsible if they don’t speak out against the wrongs that happen in the Bible, and assume that they are evil if they don’t speak out against it..
Furthermore, gays like ColoradoPatriot clearly have no problem with people being shot in the head, as their statements fully support and endorse:
Try a .357 to your ear canal to clear that out, you’d be doing us all a favor.
Or:
It wouldn’t just make me happy, it would make me fucking ecstatic…but seriously, die painfully you worthless twit.
or, like Priya, with telling people how worthless they are and how “the world most assuredly will be a better place once you’re gone”.
And, since gays like Karen, Hank, and Regan are silent on this, then, according to Priya’s logic, they must support it.
posted by Pat on
The Dakota Remus incident and the Lawrence King incident are not the same. The bullies of Remus didn’t set out with the specific intention of killing him, it was involuntary manslaughter.
If Dakota wasn’t bullied by the same person for two years, I might believe they are not the same. I’ll even buy the possibility that the bullies did not specifically intend to kill Dakota. The problem is for two years, he was bullied and it wasn’t stopped. And now he’s dead, because the bullying was never stopped. In some ways, this is more tragic, because it could have and should have been nipped in the bud two years ago when the bullying started.
Pat, there’s no point in arguing with Ashpenaz about this.
I’m afraid you’re right Karen. His last response like all the others failed to address our points, and became irrationally condescending. Too bad. I do hope Ashpenaz gets help.
posted by Karen on
Could you guys quit fighting over which death was more tragic? Have a little class.
ND30 wants us to be indignant that the press covered the story of the gay kid shot in the head for being gay more than it did the presumably straight, bullied kid who died after being beat up.
Sorry, ND30. They’re both tragedies, but nowhere in the constitution is there a guarantee for the right to equal press coverage. The gay-hatred angle, the gun, the premeditation, the flamboyancy… the story just sells better.
The fact that one was a senseless act of terrible violence and the other a sadly logical, terribly violent extension of many people’s problems with gayness account for the difference in my own reaction, which is this: I simply feel more able to do something about the latter.
posted by Bobby on
“Also, let’s say that, hypothetically, this kid did make a pass at someone. So what? I’m a lesbian, and if a straight guy hits on me, I don’t fly into a rage and shoot him. I just say “Thanks, I’m flattered. But no thanks.””
—That’s because you’re a woman, I read somewhere that women are used to being hit on by men since the age of 13. I have a female friend that likes me to go with her to events, to keep men from hitting on her. Men are different, they’re not used to being hit on, even by women, much less by men. A straight man has to be extremely open minded to allow another man to hit on him without returning some kind of punishment, be an insult, a push, a shove, a punch or worse.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
The fact that one was a senseless act of terrible violence and the other a sadly logical, terribly violent extension of many people’s problems with gayness account for the difference in my own reaction, which is this: I simply feel more able to do something about the latter.
I fail to see why, given that you’re likely a lot closer to a school with, and a lot more likely to find, a straight kid being picked on like Dakota.
Is it the bullying you care about, or is it not that big of a deal unless it’s a gay person? Indeed, as we’ve seen here, you can have people telling other people point-blank to shoot themselves, that they should die painfully and that people will be ecstatic over their deaths, and that the world will be a better place once they’re gone, and it doesn’t seem to matter much…..
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
I read somewhere that women are used to being hit on by men since the age of 13.
All that means, Bobby, is we expect women to put up with too much and we allow men to put up with too little.
posted by Karen on
ND30, I am not a teacher. I am not a school administrator or staff. I do not have interactions with kids/teens on a daily basis, and even if I, say, volunteered at the high school across the street, I doubt that any of the kids would volunteer the fact that they are being bullied. Even if they did, what could I do to prevent a situation like Dakota’s? That school already has anti-bullying progams, and the administrators had already been alerted to the situation. Should I follow the kid around and call the police for him when a fight starts? Should I teach him self defense? Should I try to talk the bully out of his irrational rages? What, dear ND30, are YOU doing for bullied straight kids?
What I’m talking about is fighting bigotry, the reason why an otherwise normal kid might go postal on the gay kid. I’m not saying I know how to fix bigotry, but I do feel more able to approach it than irrational rages.
posted by Karen on
Also:
I didn’t like CP telling you to shoot yourself. I, myself, have never done any such thing. But TELLING you to do it is a far cry from doing it FOR you. So quit acting like I’m complicit in your murder or something because a) I didn’t read that particular comment when it was posted and b) when you drew my attention to it and irrationally acted as if I somehow approved of it, I didn’t trip over my feet condemning it.
posted by joe perez on
i think this post strikes exactly the sort of balance needed in the discussion over gay materials in education. good judgment and sanity need to guide decisions, not ideology of the left or right
posted by Ashpenaz on
Again, where are the older gays with the wisdom to help this kid? Where are those who say, “Look, being gay is not about wearing makeup. That’s a stereotype. Also, you need to realize that you don’t know if you’re gay and won’t know for a long time–everyone your age feels different. It’s important for you to discuss your feelings with your parents and take their advice–they love you and will know what’s best for you.”
But instead, gays are saying, “You go, girlfriend–that shade looks great on you!” And are thus complicit in the cycle of violence.
Karen, I hope you find a well-endowed man and have the kind of sex you really need. (P.S. If that sounds offensive, wow, that’s just how offensive your therapy remarks sound to me. I’ll stop if you will, or I will simply continue remarks in this vein. Your choice, girlfriend.)
posted by Karen on
I’m gay, Ash. You’re crazy. I don’t care if a crazy queen tries to hurt my feelings by telling me I need a good deep dicking, to quote Chasing Amy. Go ahead. You still need help.
Makeup does not kill gay kids. Guns kill gay kids, and bigots pull the trigger. And plenty of people know they’re gay at 14, especially now that it’s not a big secret that it’s possible.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
I didn’t like CP telling you to shoot yourself. I, myself, have never done any such thing. But TELLING you to do it is a far cry from doing it FOR you.
And I can just imagine the aneurysm you would have if a gay kid was told to shoot themselves, that it would make everyone “fucking ecstatic” if they did, and that the world would be a better place without them.
That sort of leads to this:
I do not have interactions with kids/teens on a daily basis, and even if I, say, volunteered at the high school across the street, I doubt that any of the kids would volunteer the fact that they are being bullied. Even if they did, what could I do to prevent a situation like Dakota’s? That school already has anti-bullying progams, and the administrators had already been alerted to the situation. Should I follow the kid around and call the police for him when a fight starts? Should I teach him self defense? Should I try to talk the bully out of his irrational rages?
And somehow, if Dakota had been your child, or if this had been Lawrence King, I doubt you would have found yourself so powerless or been so clever in coming up with reasons as to “why not”.
Probably because those are useful to advancing your agenda, and Dakota was not. After all, he wasn’t gay, he was white, and, being from Kansas, his parents were presumably religious and Republican. What do you care if he’s bullied?
posted by Karen on
IF it had been a gay kid told to shoot himself (presumably without the context of your uber-irritating quasi-trolling, too). IF Dakota had been my child. Well, ND30, IF my grandmother had wheels, she’d be a bus.
You haven’t told me yet what YOU do for bullied straight kids.
I am sorry for the loss of both of these kids equally. REALLY. I am angry about BOTH of the incidents. REALLY. I don’t know what to do to prove it to you.
I just have *zero idea* what to do about the abstract concept of “kids bullied for no particular reason” and I have at least SOME ideas about fighting the abstract concept of anti-gay bigotry.
Look, if I knew a kid being bullied for WHATEVER reason, I would do my best to fix it.
WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT FROM ME?
posted by Karen on
And as for your suggestion that I’m ok with straight, white, religious Republicans being bullied…
UM.
NO.
YOU ASS.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
IF it had been a gay kid told to shoot himself (presumably without the context of your uber-irritating quasi-trolling, too).
Oh, I get it; so it’s acceptable to tell someone to off themselves and that the world would be a better place without them — or perhaps even hurry the process along — if they annoy you or you don’t like them, what they say, what they do, what they wear….
posted by Karen on
I didn’t say it was acceptable to do that because you are such an ass, ND30. I was pointing out the absurdity of your indignation over an imaginary situation where a gay kid is told to shoot himself and I proceed to have an aneurysm, when I have failed to have an aneurysm over some jerk comment on some internet board that I didn’t even SEE when it was posted.
You ARE a gay kid being told to shoot himself on the internet, and so if the kid was on internet boards acting like you do, my reaction would be exactly the same: if in a moderated forum, I’d report the comment. Otherwise, if I was involved in the conversation, I might tell the commenter that it was unacceptable. If being baited later by that comment when I hadn’t even read it when originally posted, I’d pretty much ignore it because it is irrelevant to the subject we WERE discussing.
Way to ignore everything I actually said, and instead make up something ridiculous that I didn’t say.
If there are any other mean comments about you out there on the numerous threads you hijack that you would like to share so that I can gasp in horror and exclaim about how wrong the commenter was to say such things, please let me know now. It might take me a while to properly register with you my disapproval of every wrong that has ever been done to you, so I better get started. And gosh, I bet you want me to make sure that you know that I disapprove of every wrong ever done anywhere to ANYONE, since otherwise that means I think it’s acceptable. I’m going to be very busy.
posted by Hank on
As I recall, Colorado apologized, and ND indicated that he accepted the apology. Did I misunderstand?
posted by Brian Miller on
The “North Dallas Thirty” troll, once again, needs to get over itself. It, along with James, has an annoying habit of converting every discussion of the issues into a discussion about itself.
And editors, please hurry that twit filter along. The sooner it’s installed, the sooner we can look forward to reading intelligent commentary sans the NDT troll’s “look at me” acting-out.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
As I recall, Colorado apologized, and ND indicated that he accepted the apology. Did I misunderstand?
ColoradoPatriot first attempted to claim he was joking.
And then, when I later opined that “it was a joke” that was a non-apology, citing a prominent example of LGBT people saying so, he publicly stated:
And your right about my post from February 2nd being a non-apology, I have nothing to apologize for.
And later on, he made it even more clear that his statement about it being a “joke” was not an apology:
A retraction is not an apology, you poor dumb fuck.
So yes, Hank, you misunderstood. Rather severely, in fact. Indeed, given ColoradoPatriot’s repeated statements that he was NOT apologizing and that he saw no need to apologize, it’s pretty hard to fathom how you ever came up with him doing it.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
The sooner it’s installed, the sooner we can look forward to reading intelligent commentary sans the NDT troll’s “look at me” acting-out.
As I said way back:
Oh no, Mr. Miller; I have no problem separating people who disagree with me, like Pat, versus people who are disagreeable in the process of disagreeing, like you.
And what you define as “intelligent commentary”, as exemplified here, is to make a foolish statement, then get all mad when someone counters and corrects it with linked and referenceable facts.
posted by Hank on
Good grief.
What Brian said….
posted by Bobby on
“Also, you need to realize that you don’t know if you’re gay and won’t know for a long time”
—Ash, how old where you when you knew you where gay? I was 18 when I was 100% sure, however, I don’t assume that my experience applies to everyone else.
Part of gay progress is that kids today don’t have to stay in the closet like I did. They don’t have to live in shame, they don’t have to get bad advice from freudian psychologists and selfish parents, they have options I could have never dreamed about.
What you seem to be advocating is that all gays under 18 should stay deep in the closet.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Yes, well, Hank, I suppose that’s more convenient than actually having to admit that ColoradoPatriot did something wrong, now isn’t it?
And that’s why LGBT people like you shouldn’t be taken seriously when it comes to bullying and hate speech, given that you quite obviously see nothing wrong with practicing it yourself and are more than willing to rationalize it if you dislike its target.
posted by Karen on
Answer my questions, ND30.
posted by Hank on
Good luck Karen.
I wonder if he has some revealing photos of the managment of this site.
Bobby you hit on something very important. I’m about Ash’s age, and from the same part of the country as he is. There’s a big generational difference. When I was a kid it was universally an evil shameful thing to be gay.
Nowadays of course it can still be tough, based on your family or your community, but kids have so many more options.
I think that Ash makes a mistake when he assumes that kids today universally go through what he (and I) went through.
posted by ColoradoPatriot on
Good Lord, I go away for a few days and come back to find yet another thread hijacked by ND30 beating a year-old horse.
Ahem…
“ColoradoPatriot | February 2, 2007, 5:20pm | #
I’m a bad bad man and nothing is going to stop me from saying deplorible things…see ND30, you and I have these two things in common. And, by the way, I’m just taking a piss about shooting yourself. Please PLEASE don’t off yourself, I get too much enjoyment out of watching you make a complete ass of yourself here to ever want that to stop.”
In other news, sex toys are now legal in Texas. So ND30, why don’t you go back home and fuck yourself?
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Answer my questions, ND30.
I assume you are referring to this one.
You haven’t told me yet what YOU do for bullied straight kids.
Easy; I make it clear that, regardless of what you may think of another person, you certainly don’t verbally assault them, and you DEFINITELY don’t physically assault them.
The other thing I help kids (and grownups, for that matter) understand is that people will not always like you, and that they may say or do hurtful things that you simply don’t understand why they need to do. But the one thing you can always manage is your own reaction, and that, in fact, self-confidence and self-esteem comes from being able to do that.
For the people I help, it doesn’t matter what someone else calls you. I care about you and I think you’re important and special. Let them say what they want; it doesn’t change you.
Problem is, Karen, that the interest of the gay community in gay kids and the troubles they face is less a matter of helping them than it is a matter of using them as human shields in the ideology war. Gay kids are not stupid; they realize that LGBT people only care about you if you support everything they do and don’t ever criticize them. If you don’t, those same “tolerant” LGBT people have exactly zero qualms about telling you to kill yourself, telling you that the world would be a better place without you, and wishing death on your children.
posted by Richard on
Their will always be politics in ANY institution. This means public AND private schools. The right-wing libertarian notion that somehow private education would be a LGBT paradise is naive.
posted by Richard on
1. You don’t know at 14 whether or not you are gay. You won’t know for many years of understanding your emotions, so don’t identify as gay yet.
Actually, many people have some inkling of what their sexual orientation is at that age or younger. The difference is that LGBT kids are taught at a young age what happens if they come out.
2. Sex is best in adult, long-term relationships– ideally, lifelong, sexually exclusive relationships. You don’t need to experiment. It’s OK to wait until you’re an adult and in a trusting relationship to have sex.
I would argee, in large part. However, that is NOT what absitence-only education is all about. Also I would much rather find out my teenagers were sexually active, then to find out that they were sexually active and pregnant or infected with an STD.
3. Drugs and drinking impair your ability to make wise choices. Don’t drink or use drugs.
Agreed. Although the 21-minimum drinking age is totally without merit or logic.
4. Not every adult has your best interest at heart. Some people might want you to do things or say things you’re not ready for. Always discuss whatever anyone tells you with your parents. Your parents may not understand, but they love you. Listen to them until you are of age to make your own choices.
Well, this is the problem. If a LGBT youth is not “out” to their parents, then they are probably not going to talk to them about their sexual orientation or gender identity.
Again, you will find several LGBT organizations that are working on health and welleness issuing directly relating to youth and young adults.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
(shrug) How bad is Harvey Milk High School in New York City? Heck, even in Dallas, we had Walt Whitman.
posted by Attmay on
Those wishing for a “twit filter” had better be careful what they wish for. They’ll be the first ones banned here.
“Hate speech” is merely newspeak for anything that makes leftists uncomfortable.
I had a terrible experience in a public school and not because of my sexual orientation. I will never let a child of mine set foot into one of those wretched socialist money pits. I will make any sacrifice for that. Any bad feelings I had about being gay came from embarrassment over “pride” parades, radical leftist politics (even when I was a “liberal” I disagreed with much of it), and shallowness and promiscuity in regards to interpersonal relationships between gay men, and I still dislike these things today. My family supported me being gay. Switching my political affiliation away from Democrats was what disappointed them.
ColoradoPatriot, you are truly bitter, vindictive, childish, psychotic, and evil. Do the rest of us a favor, and don’t drag the rest of us into the sad world in which you live. Unlike your attitude towards ND30, I despise all of your beliefs but do not wish you dead, not even in jest.
Is it any wonder that gay kids used to grow up feeling ashamed about what they were? What kind of role models did they have? Shrill leftist hatemongers? Flamboyant drag queens? Black people had marches; gay people have parades. Guess which ones achieved their civil rights goals? The gay “community” is a mess. If it weren’t for the growing number of right-of-center gay sites like this one I would have nothing whatsoever to do with them. Bring on the assimilation of gays, if it brings us closer to full equality.
posted by Hank on
Has Ash changed his name yet again?
posted by Priya Lynn on
Northdallass, I didn’t tell “people” the world will be much better when they’re gone, I told YOU the world will be much better when YOU are gone. And that’s a fact.
posted by Priya Lynn on
Attmay said “ColoradoPatriot, you are truly bitter, vindictive, childish, psychotic, and evil.”
You’re confused Attmay, that’s Northdallass you’re describing to a “t”. He’s the one that said “Most gays are deviants!”.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Indeed I did, Priya.
That’s because most gays ARE deviant, Carl.
Most normal people do not tell people with whom they disagree to commit suicide — but, as we see on this very board, that’s typical behavior for many gays. Quite deviant.
Most normal people do not claim a candidate who supports stripping them of rights is pro-them — but, as we saw with John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Howard Dean, and others who proudly proclaimed they had the “same position” as Republicans you were calling homophobic, that’s par for the course for most gays.
Your deviance has nothing to do with your homosexuality inherently — but it has a lot to do with your use of your homosexuality as an excuse for things like drug abuse and bareback sex……
Again, Carl, deviance; most normal people do not feel the overwhelming need to try to destroy someone personally because they disagree with them politically. But for gays, again, par for the course; John Aravosis, as I mentioned, has repeatedly phoned and harangued the bosses of gay people with whom he disagreed in an attempt to get them fired.
And that really is the problem. ColoradoPatriot’s statements demanding that someone kill themselves are considered normal and acceptable by most gays. Your statements implying that someone should kill themselves because the world will be much better when they are gone are considered normal and acceptable by most gays. Your statements claiming that anyone who believes that humans are secondary to a god is “fascist” and that people should be thrown in jail and punished for publishing the Bible and the Koran are considered normal and acceptable by most gays.
And how do we know that? Because, as you stated, if somebody does not speak out against something, that means they support it.
The problem with the gay community are parasites like you and ColoradoPatriot who use your LGBT status as a means of rationalizing and legitimizing your irrational hatreds and spoiled, childish behavior. And it’s about bloody time people like Hank, Karen, and Pat realized that going on and on about “hate speech” and telling gay kids to commit suicide or that the world would be better off without them and demanding that others repudiate and blast it publicly means nothing when all they can come up with for LGBT hate speech like yours is excuses.
posted by Priya Lynn on
We all know you’re the bully here Northdallass. Look how you bullied Carl – without even knowing him you accused him of deviance, drug use, and bareback sex. This is typical of you, you have no proof of any such thing, but it never stops you from making unfounnded accusations against innoent people. You’re a liar and you are evil and your own words prove it.
I never said people should be thrown in jail for merely for publishing the bible and the Koran, I said they should be jailed for inciting the murder of gays and non-believers in those books. If they want to leave the incitement to murder out of their “holy” books they’ll get no problems from me. That’s the difference between you and I. You think there’s nothing wrong with calling for innocent people to be put to death (unless its you – you hypocrite), and I think that’s unacceptable.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
This is typical of you, you have no proof of any such thing, but it never stops you from making unfounnded accusations against innoent people.
LOL.
You’re one sick puppy Northdallass, I wouldn’t be surprised if you had an eight year old chained in the basement so you can molest him every day.
Next:
You think there’s nothing wrong with calling for innocent people to be put to death (unless its you – you hypocrite), and I think that’s unacceptable.
Which is why you fully endorse and support ColoradoPatriot’s remarks calling for the same and make excuses for him doing it, and why you yourself imply that people should kill themselves by stating that the world would be a better place if they were gone.
posted by Priya Lynn on
You never learn to stop lying. Unlike you Northdallass, I said I wouldn’t be surprised IF you had had an eight year old chained up. I never volunteered and opinon as to whether or not you actually DO. You on the other hand said to Carl “Your deviance has nothing to do with your homosexuality inherently — but it has a lot to do with your use of your homosexuality as an excuse for things like drug abuse and bareback sex“, there was no “IF about it, you stated it as though it were actual fact.
And thanks for the opportunity prove you a liar for a second time today. Far from “fully endorsing and supporting” Colorado patriot’s suggestion that you kill your self, in this thread
http://www.indegayforum.org/blog/show/31169.html
at February 3, 2007, 12:16pm I said “Colorado Patriot, telling Northdallass to kill himself is over the line. I know he’s an asshole and its easy to feel he deserves it, but please try to take the higher ground”.
Once again you try to claim others are bullies but the reality is no one is a bigger bully than you. Its you who takes the wrongdoing of one person and claims that is typcal of the gay community, its you that makes sweeping statements like “Most gays ARE deviants!” and its you who claims people have assaulted Christians and heterosexuals in all possible manners when you have no evidence of that and you don’t even know them. The world most certainly will be a better place once you’re gone.
posted by ColoradoPatriot on
Since we’re back on the thread-derailing memes of the past year, please ND30, educate us on your theories on how African Americans should be grateful for slavery and how Buddhists are tree-worshiping cultists. I think I need a refresher course in your particular brand of idiotic racism and bigotry.
PS
In regards to my oh-so-dreadful comment to you about the .357, why don’t you ever include the reason for my outburst? It wouldn’t have been a particularly nasty lie that you told…would it?
posted by Hank on
Welcome back Priya and Colorado.
And Dallas, I don’t think that I ever used the term “hate speech”… although since you track and log every post on this site you may be able to prove me wrong.
Once again, a topic has been sidetracked by one individual’s whining. Too bad.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
That’s right, Priya, go right ahead and spin for us, just like you always do when I demonstrate your accusations against innocent people.
And that’s right, ColoradoPatriot, go ahead and try to argue that I provoked you and that you’re not responsible for your own statements — as Priya herself stated when she implied that your behavior was justifiable because, according to her, “he’s an asshole and its easy to feel he deserves it”.
And Hank, that raises the point quite nicely; LGBT people like Priya and ColoradoPatriot justify telling people who are different from them and with whom they disagree to kill themselves and that the world would be a better place if they did.
Put differently, if you think someone is an asshole, you can verbally abuse and assault them all you want according to LGBT people like Priya and ColoradoPatriot.
Deal with LGBT hypocrisy, Hank. If you don’t want gay kids bashed and have hate speech thrown against them just because somebody thinks they’re an asshole, deal with the LGBT people like Priya and ColoradoPatriot doing it.
You aren’t interested in stopping bullying. You are more than willing to allow LGBT people to bully and make hate speech against people they don’t like. Priya and ColoradoPatriot prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt.
posted by Pat on
The problem with the gay community are parasites like you and ColoradoPatriot who use your LGBT status as a means of rationalizing and legitimizing your irrational hatreds and spoiled, childish behavior. And it’s about bloody time people like Hank, Karen, and Pat realized that going on and on about “hate speech” and telling gay kids to commit suicide or that the world would be better off without them and demanding that others repudiate and blast it publicly means nothing when all they can come up with for LGBT hate speech like yours is excuses.
NDT, I stated before that, except for extreme cases, I stay out of others’ flame wars on these discussion boards, but will defend myself when I’m attacked or grossly and continuously mischaracterized. This means that I choose to bite my tongue when others start throwing flames at each other. (When I did get in the middle of one out of frustation, I apologized to you). So in this thread, I bit my tongue several times with the various unfair comments thrown at each other. And since you decided to drag me into this flame war, I think it’s only fair to point out that many of your comments have been grossly unfair. If anybody else wants to drag me into this, I’ll let them know what I think too.
It’s about “bloody” time that you stop taking bad behavior on certain people and blame me and others for it. You say it’s wrong for people to behave poorly when provoked. Now it’s time for you to take that advice. Or at the very least, stop dragging other people into it.
Okay, now it’s time to explain the difference between teens in school, home, and church vs. adults on an Internet discussion. Teens don’t have much choice about their home, going to school, and for many, church. And since they are not adults, getting bombarded with hatred and bigotry continually can get problematic, sometimes to the point where it leads to suicide. Or some of these teens are harassed, bullied, and assaulted. And as we saw, in some cases, are killed.
Now on Internet discussion boards, we are all adults. We also have the freedom to discontinue our association with any discussion board. In fact, I am no longer a participant in one discussion board because of the unacceptable behavior of too many of the other participants and one of the blogmasters. Despite a lot of the despicable, hateful stuff I’ve witnessed, including death threats, I am not aware of any case which led to any member being assaulted or killed. If I become aware that you or anyone else is in physical danger, I’m on the phone to the police.
So I will continue in this forum with my own standards that I will follow as fairly and consistently as possible. And I will continue to participate on this board for as long as I want to, or until the moderators boot me off.
If these are excuses, so be it. That’s the way it is.
posted by Karen on
“Easy; I make it clear that, regardless of what you may think of another person, you certainly don’t verbally assault them, and you DEFINITELY don’t physically assault them.”
When? What kids? I want descriptions of direct experiences, times that you ACTUALLY did this and didn’t just talk about it.
I am involved with the high school youth group at my church (and there are 2 out kids in it.) Never once have I been presented with a situation where such a pompous lecture would be useful or effective. Oh, we’re teaching them self-respect and respect for others, all right. That’s the basic tenet of our religion, in fact (UU).
Why, just the other day, on a trip to lobby for the MD marriage equality bill, I brought my wedding album. This is the email I got from one of the mothers the next day:
“Dear Karen,
I am a ***** church member, and I met you yesterday on the bus to Annapolis. I was sitting next to ***** when you shared your wedding photo album. What a beautiful and creative keepsake of your special event! Congratulations to you and Rebecca. I was wishing my daughter could see it too, but she was sitting in the back and I didn’t want to embarrass her by making a fuss.
It turns out that she did see it — she told me on the way home that you passed it around. Thank you so much for doing that! My daughter is gay (as are least two other girls in that group), newly out, and 14 years old. I was so happy that she could see such delightful photos of the celebration of the loving marriage (not yet “civil,” but sacred) of two women amidst their friends and relatives, at our church. You gave us all a special gift. On top of the lobbying activities in Annapolis, it was quite an encouraging experience.”
I was so happy that I got a chance to do that. I don’t know, I guess you just waltz into the nearest public school and start preaching, but *I* believe that you have to build relationships and be a role model, not just a windbag.
You forgot one of my other questions, not to mention a gazillion other points that I brought up here.
WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT FROM ME?
posted by Karen on
Also, do you see how it works best if we’re working TOGETHER? Don’t you see how teaching moments like that don’t just happen?
To make that situation happen, a lot of things had to be true. Most of all, she had to be a member of a church that not only allows, but *encourages* out gay people to be a part of the kids’ lives. Going on an activism trip to lobby for marriage equality is in itself an uplifting and educational message to the teens, gay and straight, at my church. You should have seen one of the other girls, when she recognized one of the plaintiffs from the recently overturned court decision. It was like she was seeing a rock star.
These things don’t just happen by themselves, ND30. And the kind of parents who want “And Tango Makes Three” taken off the shelves are the kind of parents who will NEVER, EVER allow it to happen to their own children. If they fight against something as innocuous as gay penguins – a TRUE STORY at that – you think they’re going to let an out lesbian like me near their children? You think they’ll let their kid be involved with a GSA? If they don’t make the school shut the GSA down altogether? You think they wouldn’t have my hide if I were involved in a non-gay-related youth activity and let on about my orientation?
If the kids aren’t allowed to know I’m gay, I can’t be a gay role model, now can I?
posted by Bobby on
“Is it any wonder that gay kids used to grow up feeling ashamed about what they were? What kind of role models did they have? Shrill leftist hatemongers? Flamboyant drag queens?”
—And black kids grow up with rappers singing about bitches and ho’s. Every community has their joi de vibre.
“Black people had marches; gay people have parades. Guess which ones achieved their civil rights goals”
—It took centuries to get whites to accept blacks the way they have now. If you read the quotes from Abraham Lincoln, you’ll see he wasn’t as pro-black as you think. First, he didn’t let black soldiers fight for the north, then when he did, he paid them half their wages. Then he had plans about sending them back to Africa after the civil war. After reconstruction, a system of segregation was created, it took a long time to overcome it. Even today, I’ve met some liberals who have some rather racist views they won’t mention it public.
So it’s not fair to compare blacks to gays. Blacks publicly fought for their rights for much longer than gays did.