After I wrote recently about research on homosexuality and people's ill-founded concern that it could lead to preventing homosexuality, I remembered that there is also a cluster of concerns about the survival of the gay enclave or community. Let's take a look at those.
One concern is that gays are becoming "assimilated," that they are becoming more like mainstream society and losing whatever unique qualities and valuable differences they have.
I don't know if gays are inherently, intrinsically different from heterosexuals. Early Mattachine Society manifestos back in 1950 referred to gays as "androgynes," or inherently cross-gendered, a view which still survives in the antics of the "radical fairies."
But I doubt that that is or ever was true. Seeing gays as a mix of male and female because of their orientation to the same sex is, after all, a heterosexist view (anyone attracted to a man must be somehow female) and a social construction of the times.
I suspect that what differences gays seem to embody are the result of some gays interjecting that externally encouraged heterosexist view, are a playful reaction to public prejudice, or are the result of any group of peoples spending time together and developing common qualities.
But if those differences are inherent, they will survive no matter where or how gay live, so the worriers have no cause for concern. That anyone is concerned about this suggests that they fear the differences are not really inherent after all.
Gays do seem to be gradually moving to other parts of major cities or to the suburbs. But living in an enclave is no necessary part of being gay. There have always been gays in suburbs, exurbs, and rural areas, as witness the sudden visibility of openly gay couples there in recent census demographics. So that's not new.
What is new is that the people who once were driven to and would have stayed in the protective gay enclave now feel that public acceptance of gays makes them feel comfortable leaving the enclave and moving to other parts of the city or suburbs.
This growth of acceptance, as attested by public opinion surveys, is surely a good thing, not something to be deplored. And those gays who leave the enclave can by their dispersal elsewhere help solidify and increase the acceptance of gays simply by being visible.
In any case, individual gays and gay couples will make these decision about where and how to live based on their own desires, needs and perceptions, and it is impudent for some gays to criticize other gays for their choices as a result of that growing acceptance.
If some gays are leaving the gay enclave, then should people worry--as some do--about the survival of the enclave? In some cities gay bars have closed and others are struggling to survive. I suppose the first thing to ask is: If the enclave no longer serves a significant purpose for gays, then why should we need or want it to survive? Out of sentimental attachment to history?
But the enclave will no doubt survive in some form. Gays are an affinity group. They will always enjoy being with other gay people whether living in a gay residential area or just as visitors. Some gays will still feel a desire to leave less friendly environs for the friendlier ones of the enclave. And unattached gays will always find it useful to go where there is a high density of available partners.
In addition, some of our major cities realize that they have a vested interest in the survival of the gay enclave. Businesses in the enclave are an economic engine for our cities. They are a part of what cities offer out-of-town visitors and metro area residents as part of the effort to reinvent cities as entertainment and recreation centers to replace lost manufacturing income.
Gay bars and clubs, neighborhood inns, bathhouses, gyms and spas, art galleries, gay-friendly shops and bookstores are all part of that mix in addition to gay community festivals such as Chicago's International Mr. Leather contest, Northalsted Market Days, Mardi Gras and Hallowe'en silliness.
Realizing this, Chicago, followed closely by Philadelphia, has already officially recognized the gay entertainment district, erecting rainbow-colored pylons, offering tactical placement and financial support for the gay community center, supporting neighborhood business groups, &c.
But gay businesses can no longer afford to take our gay patronage for granted. They need to spiff up, stay clean, keep their prices reasonable, facilitate parking, control the music volume, and offer special events and entertainment incentives to patronize them. Some have already learned. Others will have to.
65 Comments for “Can Gay Enclaves Survive?”
posted by Richard on
I suspect that the number of LGBT people who have a choice in living in what are often upscale ‘enclaves’ is a small portion of lgbt people.
posted by Ashpenaz on
Ohmigod, ohmigod, you guys–if there is one thing gays don’t need it’s a strengthening of gay enclaves. To what end? To continue to wallow in stereotypes? To continue to play victim to a mean ‘ol homophobic world? Could it be that society is becoming indifferent to us, that they no longer need wise, witty gay friends, and we can’t stand the lack of attention?
I don’t need or want a gay enclave to hide in. My gayness creates a gap between me and straights which is no wider than that between Episcopalians and Methodists. Yes, there is a difference, and it’s nice to be around those who believe in consubstantiation once in awhile, but I’m not going to move to an all-Episcopal neighborhood.
Thank God the gay world is growing up. I hope this means less gays showing up at Pride parades and instead going to the community 4th of July picnic. Show up holding hands. Jeez, no one cares. If someone calls you names or beats you up, it’s more likely due to the fact that you’re a Democrat than a gay man.
posted by Pat on
I don’t think that gay enclaves need to be strengthened in areas in which there is close to full acceptance of gay people. We see gay people moving out and straight people moving in where that’s the case.
In the parts of the country that are still behind on gay acceptance, strengthening gay enclaves is a help to those who cannot be open about who they are in their present community, and also gives them a chance to meet other gay people.
I wish there was such indifference to gay people today. But in many areas, there simply isn’t. There are still people who grow up being told that being gay is worse than being a drug addict. There are still too many people who will tell gay people to their faces “hate the sin, love the sinner” crap or worse. There are still church groups that have “reparative” “therapy” for those that are gay and people actually believe these charlatans have any value. Sorry, I don’t see the indifference here.
posted by ColoradoPatriot on
James: “I don’t need or want a gay enclave to hide in.”
That is true, you do a perfectly good job of hiding in Omaha.
posted by Harke Ploegstra on
Many “gay” cities have become so expensive that middle class gays cannot afford to live there anymore. The insanely high prices of real estate in the gay neighborhoods forces gay bars etc. to raise their prices, and will likely eventually drive them out of business.
I would have loved to live on a canal in Amsterdam or in the Jordaan but it’s unaffordable for young gays these days.
posted by Ashpenaz on
I am out to my family, friends, and church. I’m not out to anyone else because no one else is asking. If they want to know, I’ll tell the truth–but it’s hardly fair to say I’m in the closet when I live around people with the common sense not to ask others about their private lives.
Which is my point–if gays would just realize that nobody cares anymore, and they don’t need special symbols or neighborhoods, they’d be a lot healthier. I think that what’s happening is that announcing “Hey, world, I’m gay!” is no longer an effective way to get attention anymore. Gays are mad that no one cares and that world has moved on to hating Muslims and undocumented workers. As far as oppression is concerned, gays are so yesterday. We’re not able to convince people we’re witty, wise, and filled with good taste anymore. “The gay best friend” is no longer a staple of comedy–it’s a cliche. We’re just people now, and that makes the community mad.
posted by KamatariSeta on
There’s a large generation gap at work here. I’m 26, and many people my age, not to mention those younger than me, have grown up/will grow up having little to no firsthand experience with gay enclaves.
Lets sweep aside the extremely partisan rhetoric of aphenwhatever and look at this from a realistic angle; one reason that enclaves are less an issue among the young is that they have turned to the internet for socialization, so many can have a large circle of gay or lesbian friends in their area, without having to live in a “gay enclave”.
Lots of subcultues and music scenes are pretty well integrated between gays and straights as well.
The things above, not just enclaves and pride parades, but also churches and community fourth of july picnics, are increasingly less relevant to younger generations, and that is as it should be. I’ve never been to a pride parade or a gay enclave, nor have I ever been inside a church or at a community fourth of july picnic. These opposing things are part of a partisan divide that most younger gays, and younger people in general, are showing an increasing indifference to.
posted by Harke Ploegstra on
You can’t live in the internet, KamatariSeta.
posted by kittynboi on
It seems to be working so far, if the popularity of myspace, facebook, and other social networking sites are any indication. The one upside to urban sprawl and a service economy is that you no longer need to live in a community at all. We’re all much better off for that, as it is far more conductive to individualism.
But based on your posts, you seem to be one of those naive european collectivists.
Most people do just fine with the circle of friends the know from work, and despite all the supposedly academic studies showing how miserable this makes us, I’ll take that over community picnics and churches any day.
posted by KamatariSeta on
Meant to sign the above with my new name.
posted by Harke Ploegstra on
KamatariSeta/kittynboi you are meatware, meatware has needs that go above and beyond those of software. LGTBs didn’t fight so hard to sit in alone their houses all day. If you haven’t lived in the (inner) city you’ve missed a lot. Many young LGTBs are now missing out on that experience. Whatever is on the internet, you still live in your boring old suburb.
I live in a town with only one gay bar and I feel stifled.
posted by Kamatariseta on
No, I don’t think I’m missing out. I consider autonomy to be more important than collectivism.
posted by Ashpenaz on
Harke, your post presumes the myth that there is something wonderful and magic about gay people which you can’t find anywhere else. That’s bullcrap. Gays are just like everyone else. It’s sad, but we’re not witty, wise, or tasteful, or even particularly flamboyant, as hard as many in the community try to pretend we are.
You feel stifled because there is only one gay bar–you believe the myth that gay bars are so fabulous that nothing else can compare. In fact, there are many wonderful things you can do with your time which aren’t centered on being gay. I have no more interest in gay bars than I do in Rennaissance Faires. I’m glad like-minded people can congregate there, but I am simply not going to put on a jester cap and shout “Huzzah!” in order to fit in with a group of people with whom I obviously have nothing in common.
I don’t need gay bars. My life is not about being gay–it’s about being me and being with people I find interesting and fun and loyal. None of us talk about being gay or straight–we talk about trucks and hunting and Project Runway.
posted by KamatariSeta on
Trucks and hunting. Good lord.
Anyhow.
I don’t have much use for gay bars because I don’t drink. It tends to make people act stupid and does damage to your liver.
I’ll take reading or cooking over hunting or bars.
posted by Harke Ploegstra on
Ashpenaz
Gays who are out are not like everybody else. Do you think average people have to face such struggles?
I always imagine being Jewish is much like being gay. You are never quite safe from people from other backgrounds. Other people don?t quite understand what you are doing with your life, and what you believe in. Like Jewish folk, gays need places where they are free to socialize the way they like. You don?t need to live inside the ghetto all your life, but you should have the opportunity to live amongst others who are like you. At least for a while.
KamatariSeta
But being stupid is such fun?
posted by Bobby on
Who needs gay enclaves when you have craiglist? All the average gay needs today is an internet connection to find his own kind. I wish I had a dollar for every gay that says “I’m not into the gay scene.”
” Like Jewish folk, gays need places where they are free to socialize the way they like”
—Actually, I don’t go to jewish places to socialize either. I have individual jewish friends, that’s enough for me.
The truth is that most individuals connect with other individuals, not the community at large. If I go to a jewish temple or a gay bar, I’m just gonna be alone with people. But if I meet someone online and then meet in the real world, I won’t be alone, I’ll be with someone else.
The only people that need to live in a gay neighborhood are those who enjoy being surrounded by hundreds of people they don’t even know. Not all of us have a fetish for crowds. I much rather have a quiet dinner than go to some T-dance with 500 men dancing shirtless. Seriously, who needs that many people? What a waste of time.
posted by Harold Osler on
Don’t forget that a big part of the rise in gay areas was the baby boom. You had the existance of a large pool of people about the same age who needed cheap housing and places to have fun. Add in hormones and there you have it.
I’ve lived in San Francisco for 20 years and the Castro has definately changed–and part of it is that SF is so expensive. The gay neighborhoods need an influx of younger people to stay viable; but if the days of kids being able (or even wanting) to share apartments and go out are fading here. Add in the internet; changing public opinion; the general aging of the baby boomers and just the fact that each generation has to find it’s own way–yeah-things are going to be different. Maybe the kids today don’t feel the need for Boys Town or the Castro. Maybe having grown up in a different time has reduced the need to gather with “your own people”.
posted by Ashpenaz on
“My own people” aren’t gays. My own people are Episcopalians. My own people are Democrats. My own people are hunters. My own people are Lost fans. I have a lot of “my own people” to get through before I get to gay. Gay is not my primary source of identity, and I think gays would be better off if they focused on other parts of their personalities to build relationships on. I would much rather discuss the best public land for ducks or why Locke didn’t shoot Jack when he had the chance than why Mika seems so sad. I’m looking for rural Democrats who happen to be gay or duck hunters who happen to be gay–I don’t hang out with guys who are gay first, 24/7.
posted by KamatariSeta on
“””” why Locke didn’t shoot Jack when he had the chance””””
I’m not sure. Even though the island has a hold and influence on Locke, and it didn’t want Jack to contact the boat, it doesn’t completely CONTROL Locke, and he isn’t a murderer on his own.
Also, at the end of season 3, Jack says they weren’t meant to leave the island. Maybe the island wants as many of them there as possible, and would rather risk having to fight off whoever is on the freighter than having Jack die, if he’s important to the island in some capacity.
Also, it could give some credence to the fan speculation that Jacob and Christian Shepherd, Jacks father, are somehow connected, and Jack DID see his father on the island.
posted by Ashpenaz on
I think that Locke knows once Jack sees what’s out there, he’ll have to come back.
See? Isn’t that more fun than worrying if Lance Bass will ever find true love?
posted by KamatariSeta on
What I don’t get is this; Locke can stay on the island if he wants, but he seems to want everyone else to stay on the island as well. Also, the season 3 finale would seem to prove him right if thats what he thinks, but the same certainly doesn’t apply to Kate. Maybe this has to do with Kate apparently being “imperfect” or “flawed” as Mikhail said, but no one ever said if Jack was or was not imperfect. Maybe only certain 815 survivors are “meant” to stay and others, like Kate, are not?
I don’t know who the hell Lance Bass is. I mean, I’ve heard the name, but I don’t know who he is. I don’t keep up with this stuff. I NEVER know whats going on with celebrities. the only celebrity gossip I gave a damn about was whether or not Kiefers stint in jail for drunk driving would affect season 7 of 24, but the writers strike has assured that it won’t.
I’m still thinking the people on the Freighter might be connected to the Hanso foundation, Dharma, or some rival of theirs. I also want to know whats up with the damned foot of that statue. The writers say that supposedly that will be addressed in season 4, but they don’t always deliver on those kind of promises in any substantial way.
posted by Bobby on
“The gay neighborhoods need an influx of younger people to stay viable”
—Why? So old queens can have more fresh meat available instead of dating their own generation? This obsession with youth is disgusting. Boca Raton, FL doesn’t have a lot of young people, and yet it’s a great place to live. South Beach on the other hand, has a lot of young people, and it’s a shitty, materialistic, vain, place.
For the record, I’m 32, and although I’m young, I don’t hold too much respect for young people.
posted by KamatariSeta on
Oh shut up bobby. MAterialism is the only value worth having, otherwise you’ll wind up in a church.
posted by barry on
I don’t disagree with some of you young posters who see no need for gay enclaves–if you don’t feel you need them, fine. But I wish you guys could experience the thrill and joy we older guys and gals felt when we first walked through those neighborhoods.
I personally never felt oppressed as a gay man; nevertheless it was such a relief to find bars, streets, and neighborhoods filled with people who genuinely understood me and accepted me not DESPITE who I was but BECAUSE of who I was.
I agree that gays aren’t made of different matter–we’re all children of God, so to speak, Episcopalians and Methodists, Shi’ites and Sunnis, yada yada. However, most people in the world find meaning and purpose in their various group identities. I’m a total individualist in some ways, however I’m totally grateful and proud for being part of a gay community, for being an American, for being Jewish, and I’m happy to live near many others “of my own kind(s).”
posted by Ashpenaz on
I’m glad you find your identity in gay enclaves. Lots of people like to dress in plastic armor and go to Rennaissance festivals. The gay enclave is just as artificial as a guy wearing chain mail over his Kmart sweats in a jousting tournament. You might as well set up “Gayworld” at Epcot Center. Maybe you have.
Can you understand that there are men who don’t see their gayness as their primary source of identity? I think a more integrated personality sees his sexuality as just one facet of a complex personality.
posted by KamatariSeta on
Some people wear metal armor at ren faires. So do people who do the SCA stuff.
posted by Bobby on
“Oh shut up bobby. MAterialism is the only value worth having, otherwise you’ll wind up in a church.”
—Why would I want to be in church? What good is that? You listen to some preacher telling you what to do, for what? Can’t you make your own mind? Does your relationship with God need an intermediary? Puh-leeze.
Welcome to the gay community, sweetheart, our credo is materialism, weather it’s the material body, clothes, or actual money, it all matters. How do you think I pay my personal trainer? With kisses?
The gay community is a horrible place, I spent countless nights in gay bars waiting for someone to hit on me, and hitting on others and being rejected. No more. From now on, everything I do is online. Like tonight I have a date in the real world, and I met him online. Why the fuck should I bother going to some gay place? No sirree bob, the gay enclave was necessary before the internet, not anymore.
posted by Rob (a.k.a Xeno) on
Ditto with KamatariSeta (apparently I seem to agree on more things with you than the rest of the regulars). Social networks on the Internet have more prominence in forming new communities of LGBT youth, especially those that are realizing their sexual orientation. However, they’re only useful if they connect people with the real world, otherwise it’s just sad.
Also there’s another caveat concerning gay enclaves, regardless of how general attitudes towards gays change, the need for private social places will remain. I’m not a fan of gay nightclubs at all, but in the case of a leisure tropical vacation, I’d rather go at a private gay resort. I don’t feel like being seen with my bf or husband as the token gay couple among heterosexual couples.
That reminds me… Ashpenaz/James, are you the token gay among your church? Come to think of it, do you have any gay friends in real life?
posted by Rob on
BTW Ashpenaz/James, I don’t like how you’re dissing Renaissance Festivals and LARPs (Live Action Role Playing Games). There are real artisan blacksmiths that make real chainmail and platemail. It’s great entertainment with the bonus of education. Show some respect.
posted by Rob on
Bobby:
The gay community is a horrible place, I spent countless nights in gay bars waiting for someone to hit on me, and hitting on others and being rejected. No more. From now on, everything I do is online. Like tonight I have a date in the real world, and I met him online. Why the fuck should I bother going to some gay place? No sirree bob, the gay enclave was necessary before the internet, not anymore.
Will it be at least at a gay friendly restaurant or venue?
There are some great restaurants in the gay village that are worth going to.
posted by KamatariSeta on
“”The gay community is a horrible place, I spent countless nights in gay bars waiting for someone to hit on me, and hitting on others and being rejected. No more. From now on, everything I do is online. Like tonight I have a date in the real world, and I met him online. Why the fuck should I bother going to some gay place? No sirree bob, the gay enclave was necessary before the internet, not anymore.””
waah boohoo.
“”Why would I want to be in church? What good is that? You listen to some preacher telling you what to do, for what? Can’t you make your own mind? Does your relationship with God need an intermediary? Puh-leeze.””
You don’t need a “relationship with god” any more than you need one with David Bowie or Batman.
Your childish bitterness and tantrums never cease to amaze me to new heights of lol’s.
posted by Harold Osler on
“The gay neighborhoods need an influx of younger people to stay viable”
—<>
So who said anything about dating? ANy construct that doesn’t refresh itself will die out. Gay enclaves need younger people coming in for that reason–we age and die.
posted by Bobby on
“Will it be at least at a gay friendly restaurant or venue?”
—Sure, but why should that matter? I once brought a date to the gay neighborhood in Dallas where I used to live, Cedars Springs, and he started looking at other men. Disgusting. Or the time a date kissed me on Lincoln Road, then we went to Score and he started starring at a stripper.
I think gays are a lot nicer when they live in mostly heterosexual communities, like a small town of 300 where there’s only 20 gays. Or the gays that go to those Friends of Dorothy meetings at major cruise lines. But once you have a huge gay community, with lots of queens walking around, they’re as rude as the straight majority.
KamatariSeta, your comments illustrate perfectly why I don’t believe there is a need for a gay community outside the online world.
“You don’t need a “relationship with god” any more than you need one with David Bowie or Batman.”
—You’re the one that mentioned church, are you an atheists now? How convenient.
posted by KamatariSeta on
“”—You’re the one that mentioned church, are you an atheists now? How convenient.””
I’ve always been an atheist you dimwit, and I’ve never said otherwise.
posted by Craig on
I think the whole point is being missed here. Being part of a gay enclave, going to gay bars, pride parades etc, doesn’t define your whole being. I am a patron of the bars, attend the pride parades etc, BUT I am also a member of community theatre, president of my neighborhood association (and the only gay couple in the neighborhood), belong to local political groups and am involved in many other community functions.
My partner and I have many friends, gay and straight. But there is always something comforting about being at a gay bar – with like minded individuals – and feeling safe to be who I am. There is something uplifting to attend the pride parade and be around hundreds of members of the community and to also see the “straight” support.
You have an identity with every social group you encounter or are a part of. Being part of the “gay enclave” doesn’t have to determine your whole existence. But, it can give you a sense of community – something I see missing with many members of the younger generations. And not just gay. It seems the younger generation is much more isolated than in decades past. And, contrary to popular belief, the internet is not socializing. Socializing is gathering as a group, sharing interests – both common and different – and having human interaction.
Being a part of a larger group also helps us to understand and accept one another. Many younger gays have no knowledge of the struggles and price others have paid so they can choose to be out and who they are to the entire world. We have a bar here that still has the back entrance, with the iron gate attached. I’ve pointed out to younger gays that’s where everybody use to have to enter instead of the front, so they weren’t seen or beat up. Most of them had no idea that used to happen here.
As long as we still have a high suicide rate, fights and battles for civil rights, and hate crimes anywhere in the world because of a person’s sexual orientation, there is a need for the gay enclaves. There is power and change in numbers.
posted by Bobby on
” And, contrary to popular belief, the internet is not socializing. Socializing is gathering as a group, sharing interests – both common and different – and having human interaction.”
—But here’s the thing, Craig, The internet does help you gather people who have a common interests with you, and if you like them, you can meet them outside the net and do activities with them in person. If I go to a gay bar and say “hi, I’m vegan progressive and I’m looking for people who feel like me,” people are gonna laugh in your face. But if I put an ad with that question online, then I’m gonna meet people who understands me.
Gay bars, clubs, bathhouses, are great for people who like those things. If you like drinking and dancing, that’s the best place to meet a friend. But if you don’t like those things, then going to bars is a bad idea.
I also think that when you’re a couple, you experience life in a whole new way. Couples don’t get bored at bars or at gay pride parades, they have one another. Singles experience the world in a much different way, that’s why the online world keeps booming, because between being alone in public or being alone in your house, the second option is more appealing.
posted by KamatariSeta on
So, will some of the pro gay bar people tell me what someone who doesn’t drink is supposed to do?
posted by Harke Ploegstra on
You could go to the baths, the gay bookstore, a restaurant, a gay hotel, a gay disco, a gay gym etc. etc. etc.
posted by KamatariSeta on
Baths don’t appeal to me. A bookstore would be nice if they carried something I’m looking for. Restaurants are fine. I don’t travel enough for hotels. I hate traveling because it means they can get you easier. I don’t like clubs either; I dislike dancing and there’s a good chance gay clubs won’t play too much music I like.
posted by Bobby on
“You could go to the baths,”
—And meet horndogs that will ignore you.
“the gay bookstore,”
—Cliquish pseudo-intellectuals.
“a gay hotel”
—-Cliquish naked men in the hot tub.
“a gay disco”
—Not fun unless you’re high on E.
“a gay gym”
—The most shallow place in the world.
But here’s one you didn’t mention and I haven’t tried, a gay cruise. There’s the one of a small group of gay men, like 200, in a boat of mostly straight folks. And the all gay cruises like Atlantis and RSVP. There’s also small group vacation for gay men, Aspen Gay Ski week, and other stuff of that nature. So that I can’t criticize, yet.
posted by Pat on
there’s a good chance gay clubs won’t play too much music I like.
I agree, except I would change “there’s a good chance” to “in all likelihood.”
posted by Ashpenaz on
Or you could go to a welcoming Episcopal Church. Or a welcoming UCC or Methodist church.
Or–and here’s an interesting option–you could live your normal life and meet who you’re going to meet, some of whom will be gay. Some of whom will be straights who don’t care you’re gay. Some of whom with be those who prefer to think of you as a confirmed bachelor so they don’t have to deal with the fact you’re gay but the fact they own a tricked out truck means you want to hang around them anyway.
Maybe you will be happier if you stop making gay the source of your identity. Maybe pick something else–find those who share your other interests and values, and I’m sure there will be a gay in there somewhere.
Then, you can get married at that welcoming church you found.
posted by Leo on
Straight singles seek out the company of other straight singles.
Straight singles tend to gravitate to the same neighborhoods, patronize the same businesses, bars, restaurants, and resorts. Do we assert that the only source of their identity is their heterosexuality? Do they stop being anything, but heterosexual? Do they surrender other aspects of their identity because they gravitate to people like themselves?
For people who are serious about meeting someone and settling down there’s an old saying, “Fish where the fish are”.
And for a small minority like ours that’s may be more the case. It isn’t because we lack any identity beyond our sexual orientation that we patronize gay identified neighborhoods and businesses. It’s because we’d like to increase our odds of finding people that we can share that special emotional and yes physical bond. Straight friends with whom you share common interests are wonderful, but they’re not going to marry you, or cuddle up with you on a cold night nor are they going to have sex with you. They’ll never be that partner you seek. As much as it might be nice to fantasize about bumping into Mr. Right at the Home Depot I wouldn’t recommend that as your only strategy for finding companionship.
Gay or straight relationships just don’t happen. That’s fodder for movies. They happen because the parties involved make them happen. You’ve got put yourself out there and someone’s got to make the first move. If the web works for you that’s great. If a club or a bar or religious or political group works that’s great too. But one way or another you’ve got to eventually jump into the pool (to use a tired metaphor) and stop standing by the side complaining about the water temperature.
posted by KamatariSeta on
“”Or you could go to a welcoming Episcopal Church. Or a welcoming UCC or Methodist church.””
Thats going to be a bit difficult for someone who doesn’t believe in god. Would you mind explaining to me how it will work?
posted by Ashpenaz on
Try the UCC. In all seriousness, you would find many there who agree with you. Explain your beliefs or lack thereof to a UCC pastor. I bet you will find a lot of agreement and possibly even a community. And you would be helping to build a congregation who witnesses clearly to God’s love for gays (even if you don’t believe in God).
posted by Ashpenaz on
According to one of those ubiquitous rainbow slogans, “We are Everywhere,” Leo–how can you say we aren’t? Are you saying that slogan is a lie?
I bet that if you go to church or bridge club or Ducks Unlimited or wherever long enough, you will see any number of men over 30 who don’t have wedding rings. A few conversations will reveal whether there’s a mutual attraction, and what’s even better, you already have an interest in common which doesn’t involve deciding whether you like Clinton better than Stacy.
posted by KamatariSeta on
“”Try the UCC. In all seriousness, you would find many there who agree with you. Explain your beliefs or lack thereof to a UCC pastor. I bet you will find a lot of agreement and possibly even a community. And you would be helping to build a congregation who witnesses clearly to God’s love for gays (even if you don’t believe in God).””
But I don’t even have a desire to join a church. I’ve never been inside a church in my entire life. I go to a local indian buffet on sunday morning because they have better stuff out Sun. than they do the rest of the week, and thats more important to me. Otherwise, I’m content with reading or video games or taking care of my pet rabbits.
posted by Leo on
I guess it comes down to this.
If I desire Italian food I go to a good Italian restaurant.
I don’t go to some diner and hope they’ll maybe have good Italian food and then complain about going hungry when they only serve burgers, while at the same time, blaming Italy for the whole fiasco because there were no good Italian cooks at the diner to fix me my meal dammit!
posted by Ashpenaz on
Speaking of Italian food, I always thought Olive Garden was a good place to meet other gays. After all, when you’re there, you’re family.
posted by Bobby on
“If I desire Italian food I go to a good Italian restaurant.”
—Precisely, because the people who go to gay venues, like gay venues. So for many of us to go to a gay venue, it’s like going to an Italian restaurant hoping to find a boyfriend that doesn’t like Italian food.
African-Americans raised in middle-class neighborhoods, sometimes by white parents, have a similar experience. Sometimes they are interested in ghetto culture, sometimes they’re not. And when they’re not, they’re accused of acting white! Just like gays who don’t go to gay enclaves are often accused of being assimilated.
posted by Pat on
Speaking of Italian food, I always thought Olive Garden was a good place to meet other gays. After all, when you’re there, you’re family.
Maybe good for meeting gay people, but not a good place to go for Italian food, although the salad and breadsticks are very good. Northeastern New Jersey is blessed with tons of excellent Italian restaurants, no need for Olive Gardens here.
Precisely, because the people who go to gay venues, like gay venues. So for many of us to go to a gay venue, it’s like going to an Italian restaurant hoping to find a boyfriend that doesn’t like Italian food.
Bobby, I like Leo’s analagy, but you got a point there. I think it’s a matter of finding the right gay venue. For example, I would go to gay bars, but they usually suck on Friday and Saturday nights after 10 or so, because the music sucks, and they put footage of pride parades on TV, and the crowd is younger. I preferred going either earlier on weekends or go another night where it’s less crowded, you can actually have a conversation with someone and hear what they say, and you can even ask to have a tennis match or Yankee game on the TV.
posted by Bobby on
Hey Pat, I know what you’re saying. I’ve gone to different gay bars at different times. Sometimes they’re too crowded, sometimes there’s hardly anyone there, sometimes there’s a few people. Still, when your only purpose is to meet guys, you’re only gonna enjoy them if you meet a guy. If on the other hand, you enjoy the music, the ambiance, the drinks, playing darts, and all that goes with bar culture, then it doesn’t matter if you meet a guy or not. I have a friend who stay at the bar for 3 hours, and maybe then someone hits on him. The beauty of the online world is that I can get men to hit on my in 10 minutes, maybe less. Or I can just place my ad, close down the computer, watch TV, and check it 3 hours later for responses. That’s why the gay enclave is dissapearing, in our modern gay life, you can find Mr. Right without even leaving the house.
posted by ColoradoPatriot on
bobby: “That’s why the gay enclave is dissapearing, in our modern gay life, you can find Mr. Right without even leaving the house.”
Pie in the sky thinking, as usual. If you don’t like gay bars, try a sports bar…or a coffee bar…or a oxygen bar…but DON’T rely on the internet if you are looking for a real relationship (random skanky hook-ups? Sure).
posted by Leo on
—Precisely, because the people who go to gay venues, like gay venues. So for many of us to go to a gay venue, it’s like going to an Italian restaurant hoping to find a boyfriend that doesn’t like Italian food.
So you what a relationship with a man who doesn’t like other men?
posted by leo on
“I bet that if you go to church or bridge club or Ducks Unlimited or wherever long enough, you will see any number of men over 30 who don’t have wedding rings. A few conversations will reveal whether there’s a mutual attraction, and what’s even better, you already have an interest in common which doesn’t involve deciding whether you like Clinton better than Stacy.”
So has this strategy worked well for you so far?
posted by Charles Wilson on
But here’s one you didn’t mention and I haven’t tried, a gay cruise. There’s the one of a small group of gay men, like 200, in a boat of mostly straight folks. And the all gay cruises like Atlantis and RSVP. There’s also small group vacation for gay men, Aspen Gay Ski week, and other stuff of that nature. So that I can’t criticize, yet.
Don’t worry, you will.
posted by Bobby on
“So you what a relationship with a man who doesn’t like other men?”
—No, I want a relationship with a man like me, a man who doesn’t enjoy gay bars but prefers going to the movies, watching TV, and taking weird vacations in places like death valley, California. Guys who are into gay bars enjoy starring at strippers, cruising other men, drinking alcohol and listening to techno. That’s not my thing. It’s funny your name is Leo, I knew a Leo who was very popular, all the boys were into him. You see, he can enjoy the gay bars and the stereotypical gay lifestyle, it’s fun when you are sexy and everyone kisses your ass, and pays your compliments and hits on you. But when you’re not good enough, then you’re better off going online. The amazing thing is, I can get online what Mr. Pretty used to get offline.
posted by Charles Wilson on
No, I want a relationship with a man like me, a man who doesn’t enjoy gay bars but prefers going to the movies, watching TV, and taking weird vacations in places like death valley, California.
Sorry Bobby, but I’m taken. Incidentally, amid all this talk about what you want, you haven’t said a word about what you have to offer. Hmm. I wonder why that is.
posted by Bobby on
“Incidentally, amid all this talk about what you want, you haven’t said a word about what you have to offer. Hmm. I wonder why that is.”
—Because it’s not important. It’s a subjective matter, and I don’t think it’s relevant to the forum. I also don’t think indegayforum.com is a good place to meet guys. “What I want” is relevant to why me and others are avoiding the gay getto. “What I offer” is too personal to discuss, unless you want to know my height, age, weight, and race. The only statistics that really matter.
posted by bryan on
So it appears that being gay is okay with this Ash guy as long as no mentions it?! Discuss everything but Gay. Accept no gay associations, witness no parades. Be gay but quiet, secret almost. But it’s okay, it’s okay to be gay, just don’t mention it…
posted by Bobby on
Ash guy has a point, although in the past there were gay organizations I did enjoy. But for the most part, being gay is about having sex or dating or falling in love with a person of the same sex. Everything else is simply optional. Your comments reminds me of those blacks that get accused of acting white just because they don’t listen to hip hop and talk ebonics. Among gays we have the same crap.
posted by Rob on
After contemplating this topic for a few minutes more, I realized how irritating that while in mainstream society, I can’t simply ask any guy I find interesting out on a date since 94% of the time, that guy turns out to be straight. Also, not everyone wants to start looking for gay dates via the internet. It seems we’re highly dependent on it for serious mating. Reality is that finding a good mate is more troublesome for gays and lesbians, and because of this fact, there definitely is a need for a gay culture, space, and social gatherings. So those places will never really dissapear, even if everyone was 100% accepting in society. These ghettos simply evolving and spreading, since it’s safer in a more accepting maintream society.
posted by Charles Wilson on
“What I want” is relevant to why me and others are avoiding the gay getto. “What I offer” is too personal to discuss, unless you want to know my height, age, weight, and race. The only statistics that really matter.
You truly spoke volumes about yourself there. No wonder you’re single.
posted by infovoyeur on
First the minority pool is small, 5-10%. Second the ID labels are iffy–“gaydar” needed? These two hurdles for gays are in addition to the usual difficulties for people finding partners. […but just what IS my Point here, if I had one, and I think I did when I entered…] I met my partner, for a perfect (yes nothing is but still…) relationship Until Death etc., via the mailing list of an area Gay/Bi Mens’ Social Club in Madison WI. If not for that….. Cheers…
posted by David on
The disappearnce of gay enclaves would be a good thing. It would mean gays have overcome being segregated by society. Isn’t that the ultimate goal, after all? It seems the more accepting society becomes, the more the gay czars complain about it.
I live in Chicago, and already you see most the bars mixed. Gays go to straight bars, and vice versa–there really is no need to even label the bars gay and straight anymore. Ironically, the people doing most the complaining are not the straights, but the gays.
For me, true acceptance comes when there is no need for gays bars, when two men can walk into any bar or restaruant and hold hands without fear of persecution or ridicule. You can already see that in Chicago.