It seems that politicians who are the most anti-gay (e.g., Huckabee calls homosexuality "sinful") are often also the most anti-immigrant (e.g., Huckabee wants to seal border.)
Could be that people who don't like people who are different, don't like people who are different?
More. Reason mag's Hit & Run blog on Republicans "chasing a rabbit down a hole" for dubious short-term gains and likely long-term disaster.
Still more. David Lampo, a spokesman for Log Cabin Republicans of Viriginia, writes in the Richmond Times-Dispatch:
What are the lessons the Republicans should learn from the 2007 elections? Certainly not the one that the Family Foundation is pushing in its e-mail blasts to its supporters that claim the losses were attributable to candidates who were not socially conservative enough…
For Republicans to succeed, we must get back to focusing on real Republican ideals and values-such as limited government, individual responsibility, and fiscal discipline-and move away from campaigns that do nothing more than attack gays and immigrants…
…if the Republican Party wishes to reverse its recent electoral misfortune, it will need to adopt a message and run campaigns that invite people into the party rather than exclude them from it.
32 Comments for “No Penetration, Period”
posted by Roy on
Hmmm. I think there should be a distinction made between anti-ILLEGAL immigrant and anti-immigrant. The mention of “amnesty cities” in that article makes me believe that Huckabee is anti-ILLEGAL immigrant, which I agree with. I agree with making the borders less porous, and I don’t believe in amnesty for illegal immigrants. However, I believe that immigrants are welcome if they go through the proper LEGAL channels and thereafter, contribute to society. (My parents are immigrants, FYI, so don’t call me a xenophobe!)
However, his views on homosexuality are ridiculously dated. Obviously.
posted by Anonymous on
Nothing I’ve heard from Huckabee suggests that he is anti-immigrant. In fact, while governor of Arkansas he supported a bill that provided college scholarships for the children of illegal immigrants who had gotten good grades and where at the top of their high school class. His position, like that of every other presidential candidate is to stop illegal immigration and he has offered some real solutions to that effect. The law says you cannot walk across the border into the U.S.A. at your pleasure. No other sovereign nation on earth allows that, not even Mexico. Since Huckabee is running for president I would expect him to provide solutions that will enforce the immigration laws. Millions of illegal immigrants are mocking our laws every day. So clearly current enforcement efforts are not working. It seems that with his comment that Huckabee is anti-immigrant, Stephen Miller has had a relapse and is not quite fully recovered from his former “progressive” ways.
posted by EssEm on
I LOVE homos and I would seal the border in a heartbeat.
C’mon, Steve. This little “people who don’t like people who are different” moment is worthy of a Howard Dean.
Yikes.
How about people who don’t like millions of foreigners illegally crossing the border?
posted by Ashpenaz on
It is interesting that a gay person would stress the “illegal” in immigration, as if laws are always just and never need to be changed. Would you then round up everyone who commits illegal acts of sodomy? I mean, what part of illegal don’t you understand?
Or–would you support amnesty for sodomites? And maybe realize that laws need to be changed to reflect changing social realities?
I am for amnesty for undocumented workers and sodomites.
posted by UAFA NOW on
I used to be illegal, but then they decriminalized homosexuality.
posted by Inaudible Nonsense on
“Illegal” is such a loaded term and frankly — it doesn’t have the moral authority people seem to think it does. If you break a law, you’re illegal? So can I assume all of us speeders, jaywalkers, sodomites refer to themselves as “illegals”? Our current system of immigration does not work, because its not systemic and its more of a mess than it has ever been in our history. My great grandparents should up the way that undocumented immigrants show up today: they go on a boat and came here. And what about those that find their status change back and forth over night? Or those of us that met our partners while in college and then found that there was nothing we could do to keep them here. And so have found away for them to stay here undocumented. Get off the moral high ground on “illegal” people and walk a mile in someone else’s shoes. We need to find away for the millions of productive workers to stay in this country through a system of fines and registration that works — and find away to add transparency to the immigration process so that others can come in the future. Immigrants follow the jobs — just like my family did from Austria and Ireland. And we all benefit by having more open borders. And letting the great American multicultural machine work its magic.
posted by ETJB on
The pratical challenge is that it would be incredibly expensive to actually locate and deport the estiminated number of illegal immigrants within the United States en mass and building a large fence (concreate) is not going to come cheap either.
Then we have the fact that many illegal immigrants are doing the type of physically intensive-low skill jobs that legal immigrants/citizens often will not do at the given wages. The fact that many of the same illegals can be easily exploited does not help things either.
I am sure that their must be a reasonable and practial immigration policy out their, but I have not seem it much from most pratical policy. Also hearing some of the debates, leaves me to believe that some people do not know our history with regards to immigration.
Remember that Congress formally banned (and the USSC upeheld) gays under some type of ‘sexual preverts’ law until 1990.
Gay couples can face even more nightmares when one of the persons is a non-citizen (even legally). The Permanent Partners law was one suggestion to fix this.
posted by Rhywun on
Millions of illegal immigrants are mocking our laws every day.
Yeah, I imagine they sit around on their days off, snickering at us stupid yanquis for letting them in to do our crap work for us at low wages.
posted by Regan DuCasse on
Hmm…I’m all for IMMIGRATION, I’m against ILLEGAL immigration. Why would anyone have problem with that. After all, illegal aliens ARE cheating those who are patient and willing and have gone through the process of legally immigrating whatever the time and expense it took.
After all, there are exponential crimes attached to it. Such as working under the table, cheating the tax laws, working under assumed social security numbers and false names.
Oh yeah…and not being able to account for who is or isn’t here and their purpose and all the aforementioned are acts you wouldn’t be able to get away with, let alone be ENABLED to do.
We are at war, and we WERE attacked and thousands died at the hands of a few terrorists. And every day other crimes of violence are committed on citizens. I work for the LAPD, and that’s not prejudice talking but a disdain for people who CHEAT and disrespect you and I who abide by the laws.
This is NOT a civil rights issues. Black Americans or any others of color, were required to live under rules that carried all the responsibility, but none of the benefit of being equal. Same goes for gay folks, who transcend ALL cultures, countries and families in the entire world.
Illegal immigration has made fools of us, and they ARE mocking our laws and making up their own and forcing the rest of us to accept what is already known to be dangerous and indefensible. We only have so many resources and saturation has long been at hand. Terrorists like gang members and sleeper cells DO snicker at how weak we are in defense of our country, it’s language and basic tenets. The 9/11 certainly did, didn’t they?
And you haven’t seen it if you haven’t encountered a gang member face to face who does exactly THAT. Yeah…we DO look stupid and weak and unorganized and ARE getting moreso as this issue grows beyond our capacity to contain it.
Guess nobody has gotten your number yet, eh, Rhywun?
Our President, in his infinite lack of articulation, defends illegal immigrants in ways that are anathema to BEING a citizen of this country.
He generalizes that they are “just trying to work and look after their families.”
And what, gay men and women, who have contributed to his office and are voters and have families don’t?!
What the hell?!
He slaps us all with that ‘they will do the jobs Americans won’t do.”
Bull SHIT!!!
Well, HE’S one American that’s not doing the job either. Why’d he take an oath then?
posted by The Gay Species on
Stephen, you commit a number of fallacies. First, you “correlate” two ideas as having the same genesis (genetic fallacy). Then you claim immigrants in general rather than illegal aliens (fallacy of equivocation). Then you presume that the same idiot follows your fallacies to come to his conclusions that anti-illegal aliens are homophobic xenophobes? And YOU throw stones at the Left for this?
posted by Mark on
“After all, illegal aliens ARE cheating those who are patient and willing and have gone through the process of legally immigrating whatever the time and expense it took.”
How are illegal immigrants preventing people from getting in legally? That does not make sense.
Regan, you overlook the fact that for MOST people wanting to immigrate to the United States, there is NO practical way to do it. Without a spouse or very close family member in the United States, you are screwed unless you have some very particular job skills, a large business investment, a valid claim of political asylum or if you won a very limited immigration lottery.
posted by Jorge on
As a legal immigrant who had to spend $10,000 on a lawyer to apply for a greencard I resent some illegal alien wanting amnesty. Illegal aliens are cheating the system. Let them put up with all the red tape I had to put up with.
posted by bob on
I can’t believe the comments here. Gay people aren’t allowed to sponsor their partners for immigration, so unless they’re rich and educated enough to come here on their own, there is no legal option. That leaves a good chunk of gay people here undocumented because there is no legal option and they want to be with their partners. Have some compassion.
posted by Ashpenaz on
Why not just give them permanent guest worker visas and call them legal? If they want the right to vote, to own firearms, etc., then they can apply for full citizenship. I agree–there should be something special about becoming a full legal citizen. But there’s no reason people can’t work here indefinitely and still be legal. And welcome.
posted by Dale on
In the December 17 issue of Time Magazine, (liberal) political pundit makes a cogent argument that the crux of the immigration issue is not about illegal immigration, it’s about immigration itself. He argues that reducing illegal immigration is difficult, but imcreasing legal immigration would be easy. And if we increased legal immigration, that surely would reduce illegal immigration. He writes, “If your view is that legal immigration is good and illegal immigration is bad, how about increasing legal immigration?”
If we made legal immigration easier and more open, then illegal immigration would correspondingly decrease. Voila! A simple solution that embodies the welcoming spirit of our country’s inclusive heritage. Double, triple, quadruple the levels of legal immigration, and make sure all ethnic origins have equal access. So just as no one seems to worry about how many Irish people are entering this country, legally or illegally, so also no one will worry about how many Mexicans we should welcome into our great land.
By the way, what sort of immigration restrictions did the Native Americans impose when the Europeans arrived in their country without passports or visas? For those so fond of looking into America’s early history for guidance, that should be an interesting consideration. Were your forefathers not illegal aliens in the nation of the indigenous owners of this land? Aha! Is that it, that you don’t want Mexicans to do to your country what your forefathers did that the country of the Native Americans?
posted by Dale on
Whoops, I left out the Time Magazine author’s name…Michael Kinsley.
posted by Regan DuCasse on
Mark, I didn’t say they were PREVENTING others from coming in legally.
I said they CHEATED those who applied legally by JUMPING the line and not dealing with the process they are supposed to. And if they
AREN’T qualified to be here, gee like because of a violent criminal record, NOT dealing with them just makes it dangerous for those who have no idea about what and who they are.
I have advocated for marriage for gay couples for a VERY long time, because I know that the immigration issue is especially unfair if there is no option for a sponsor, no matter how long and as a legal resident a foreign immigrant may be.
And I’ve stood to lose many good friends because of that problem and I resent it. I really do.
My issue Mark is with illegal immigrants who don’t think our laws apply to them and do all manner of other very bad things to stay here and work.
Again, that’s not about preventing others from coming LEGALLY.
But it does set a bad example and demonstrates that anyone can do what they feel like. And ultimage cause serious chaos and mistrust.
And certainly this behavior shouldn’t be rewarded, or enabled simply because our government has lost interest.
That’s insane and stupid and dangerous.
And Ashpenaz…no, not a good idea. We already gave amnesty to other lawbreakers and millions more showed up. If what you said was true, then they had no call to break in illegally in the first place and could have just gone through the legal process.
Our government cannot show or prove they can make a guest worker LEAVE when their time is due. Since this is how so many immigrants became illegal in the first place. Including the 9/11 nineteen. See the point?
posted by Regan DuCasse on
Hey Dale…I’m a black American with native American family as well. Let me put it this way, I lost eleven aunts and uncles who died in childhood because of racism in America. And my parents and grandparents survived the indignity of many years of Jim Crow AND the Great Depression which was hardest on people of color.
And when it got down to it, their own country was abusing them. As do the governments of some of the countries we hear about every day. If I had to say something about corrupted governments, blacks were a definitive minority and government especially corrupted exclusively against THEM. It took much sacrifice, courage and commitment over a long time to make this country finally do right.
And perhaps it came too late in some ways, as I hope it doesn’t for gay folks.
But understand this and in particular those from the rest of the Americas.
They have an example to follow: blacks didn’t bogard Canada and make demands on the Canadian people or their government and didn’t run from their problems into that country.
The people of the southern part of the Americas are more homogenous and indigenous and the whole world is watching.
They can damn well get their shit together and demand from THEIR countries what is owed. And I’d be happy to help them out. A cousin of mine lived in different parts of Mexico for example to examine the democratic process in the different states there.
There are some aspect of our relations with parts of the southern Americas and China that have become parasitic. This will drain us and we are already very weak and beholden to some bad regimes out there that previous Presidencies would have rather died first than do that.
I’m losing sympathy and I remember what my own family members went through and lost and also FOUGHT for. I’m not seeing that initative in a big wave of new and illegal immigration going in the right direction.
And because our President IS giving more accomodation to people he has no idea about over gay citizens or even legal gay immigrants, I’m seriously pissed about the whole thing.
Seriously….PISSED!
Maybe I shouldn’t say this, but I think it’ll take an illegal immigrant taking a pot at the President and nailing him for the message to get across. 9/11 didn’t do it. Nor our peace officers and other citizens who have been executed by gang members or the terror cells that have been discovered here.
And Mexico won’t copperate with us when it comes to dangerous fugitives and our President doesn’t have the stones to stand up to that government, not even on behalf of it’s people.
And why the Latinos here aren’t doing it and shaking a fist at Calderon or Fox before him, I don’t know. But it’s fair to demand why.
They are a majority where they come from, so what’s the problem?
Perhaps I sound harsh, but I have stood up for people who have it hard and I learned from the previous generations what sacrifice is for those who have no support (like gay folks).
This is different. This is a cultural problem and a matter of resources and their organization and at whose expense things are changing for the worst.
posted by Rhywun on
I said they CHEATED those who applied legally by JUMPING the line and not dealing with the process they are supposed to.
So because legal immigration requires so many ridiculous hurdles, illegal immigrants should be subjected to that process too? How petty. The reason there are so many illegals is because the legal process is so tortured. Kinsey is right. If you’re seriously against illegal immigration, the only rational solution is to increase legal immigration–and I don’t see many anti-illegal immigration types making that argument. The other solutions are to (a) make America a less attractive place, perhaps by wrecking the economy and shedding millions of jobs, or (b) create Fortress America. I don’t want to live in either of those Americas.
PS. Not everything that is illegal is wrong. Saying that illegal immigrants are bad because they break a law is not especially convincing.
PPS. Full disclosure: my partner of four years was forced to return to his country, 12,000 miles away. He wanted to stay here, continue being productive and paying taxes. He chose to “follow the rules” so the only way he’s likely to get out of his repressive country is to find a country that is friendlier to immigrants than we are, say, Australia or Canada. The US is no longer an option for most.
posted by Ashpenaz on
And lest we forget–most “illegal immigrants” are simply returning to land which was stolen from their ancestors during the Mexican War–in a situation not unlike our invasion of Iraq. One could say that Mexicans are simply reclaiming their homeland.
posted by Anonymous on
“The reason there are so many illegals is because the legal process is so tortured.”–Rhywun
Wrong again Rhywun!
Actually, the legal process is not tortured. the legal immigration process is fair, methodical and designed to ascertain among other things: 1) That the immigrant does not have a criminal record (i.e., rapist, murderer, swindler, terrorist); 2) That the immigrants have the skills and abilities to support themselves and their family so as not become a burden on society and social services; 3) That they are free of diseases so that they will not communicate or introduce diseases to the U.S. and that they are properly vaccinated and immunized; 4) That those who abide by the immigration laws and play by the rules are not cheated of their place in line by those who break the law and do not play by the rules.
The United States cannot possibly let in all that want to come here. Our social system would collapse if we let in 30, 40 or 50 million people per year in need of schooling, housing, jobs, health care, police protection. Every immigrant needs time to be assimilated and in the past when most immigration was legal the system had enough time for such assimilation.
But now illegal immigration has surpassed legal immigration and what the country can assimilate. Most illegal immigrants come from failed states such as Mexico that cannot provide schooling, jobs, housing, health care, police protection or a decent standard of living for their citizens. Mexico for instance, despite being a wealthy country rich in natural resources such as petroleum (black gold) has to export its demographic problems to the U.S. It’s funny how Presidents Fox and Calder
posted by Rhywun on
Co
posted by Bobby on
“what sort of immigration restrictions did the Native Americans impose when the Europeans arrived in their country without passports or visas?”
—You’re kidding, right? There was Indian raids against the colonies, at one point Christopher Columbus left 100 people in one of the islands he discovered and when he returned they were all death. Todays history loves to portray Indians at pacifists that never did anything wrong. But these is far from the truth, they fought, they raped, they pillaged, they did all the things whites did to them. The difference was that the whites had better technology. Bows and arrows aren’t great when you’re dealing with guns.
Later on, this country had tight immigration controls. Anyone remembers the Chinese Exclusion Act?
I’m not advocating that, what I advocate is very simple.
1. Fix the legal immigration system.
2. Protect the border just like every other country.
Do that, and then we can discuss ammnesty.
posted by Mark on
My point is that many perfectly decent people enter the country illegally because there is NO WAY for them to get in legally. They can’t get in even if they follow the rules. That needs to be understood.
posted by Regan DuCasse on
Ashpenaz…you’re kidding, right?
Ok, if Mexicans had KEPT this part of the Americas…THEN where would they flee to?
They like this country better AFTER THE FACT, of making a mess in their own nest.
The topography and natural resources of Mexico (only one example) are beautiful and with moderate climates and such, it’s an ideal location-run by knuckleheads.
It’s not the LAND, it’s who is running it.
And instead of using the American model of organization and population support, invading and taking over is the agenda?
You think they can do a better job, Ashpenaz?
Rehashing ANCIENT history serves NOTHING. It’s patently STUPID, in fact.
Let’s talk about NOW. Or else you are showing you have no argument, no CASE.
My empathy DOES lie with binational gay partners. I know how tough the situation is, I have advocated for marriage equality and alternative laws for gay partners to stay together.
But saying that the southern regions of the Americas got this nation stolen from them has no merit in it.
Considering how ignorant and English challenged masses come here, have babies they can’t afford which further entrenches poverty and burdens those of us who strategized our life plans better, I’d say you’re complaining to the wrong people.
I and my fellow Angelenos confront street violence, race wars and intense population enlargement from needy people who lack the skills and money to live in this expensive city.
Shame on them for not preparing better and looking to you and me in anger at stolen land.
Puh leeze!
Mexico evidently isn’t good enough either…
posted by Regan DuCasse on
And Mark…I’m sure you’re right. And you know what, it’s still not right and the reason isn’t personal.
When the boat is FULL, the boat is FULL. We CAN’T accept everyone who WANTS to be here.
Under the best of intentions that’s impossible.
The quality of life is SERIOUSLY compromised in Los Angeles because of immigration AND emigration. This isn’t conjecture of what might happen, but what DOES. It’s BAD here. Really bad.
I’m a native of Los Angeles and we are EXTREMELY rare. Which is crazy in a place this size and we had over a MILLION people move in in less than three years. What would YOU and where you live do if the ENTIRE population of Boston landed there in such a short time.
Yeah…you wouldn’t like it either.
posted by Anonymous on
“And lest we forget–most “illegal immigrants” are simply returning to land which was stolen from their ancestors during the Mexican War–in a situation not unlike our invasion of Iraq. One could say that Mexicans are simply reclaiming their homeland.”–Ashpeniz
Well, I’m in New York City and we have illegal Mexican immigrants up the wazoo here and across the river in New jersey too, were those lands “stolen” during the Mexican War too and they are simply coming to reclaim them? And what the hell does Iraq have to do with this discussion on immigration? I swear, there should be a minimal IQ and grade school education level before people are allowed to post.
Are there any people here from the South, Midwest, and New England that can tell us is Mexicans are in their midsts to reclaim their lost lands?
posted by Timothy on
I oppose unfettered uncontrolled immegration. Not that I don’t want people coming here, but I cannot fathom the argument that says we should not know who they are or that we should not make requirements of those who we allow in.
Currently, we do not deport those who come to this country without providing information (for consistency sake, let’s call them “illegal immegrants” in that they didn’t file legal documents). Nor do we make any effort to track them or ascertain whether they are here with families to make a new life, here alone to send money to a foreign nation, or here to engage in gang violence or other criminal acts.
Do we care what category they fall into? I do.
I live in Los Angeles and a great many of my neighbors are here illegally. Some, I don’t mind so much. Others are a real danger to me. Unfortunately, I have no way of knowing who is a danger and who is not.
It is not racist to notice that an overwhelming percentage of violent crime, murder, rape, robberies, car-jacking and other heinous crimes are committed by persons whom the news refers to vaguely as “being held for immegration violations”. Sure we all know and agree that many many illegal immegrants do not commit crimes, but that doesn’t mean that we cannot keep out the ones who do.
Yes we have home-grown criminals. But they have ties here and they have family they are hurting and they don’t have somewhere to flee that will refuse extradition. These things tend to put a damper on wild behavior. Illegal immegrant men without families here have no such damper. It is as often as not that we hear that criminals simply flee home leaving their destruction behind without any justice meted out. Either it isn’t a big enough crime, or it’s too big and other countries won’t extradite.
Because our borders are porous I am willing to listen to those who want to take my safety seriously. I have no use for the Bushies and their “look the other way” policies.
I would be fine with the number we have (OK, probably fewer – housing is crazy in LA and having millions more people than just a few years ago doesn’t help). But if we STOPPED the undocumented crossing of the border and we only let in those who were going to make a contribution then I really could care less.
You can assume I’m a bigot if you like. But my life is increasingly threatened the longer that we allow criminally minded people to come to my neighborhood without even knowing who they are. And it is unfair to ask me not to insist that those who come here do so for honorable reasons.
posted by Timothy on
“And lest we forget–most “illegal immigrants” are simply returning to land which was stolen from their ancestors during the Mexican War–in a situation not unlike our invasion of Iraq. One could say that Mexicans are simply reclaiming their homeland.”–Ashpeniz
That comment displays amazing ignorance.
The land was not “stolen” from THESE Mexicans. The Mexicans who lived here when the land changed nations, stayed. And prospered. And made it their home. They are as “American” as anyone else.
No, the Mexicans you are referring to never ever had any ancestors that lived here.
Sorry. Not a valid argument.
posted by Rhywun on
Protect the border just like every other country.
That’s a strange statement. Our border isn’t less protected than most other countries (unless you count, say, North Korea). Rather, our economy is more prosperous and our freedoms are greater, thus attracting more immigrants. You should be happy about that.
posted by ETJB on
The United States ‘won’ a great, and subsequently profitable, chunk of Mexico through the war.
The US-Mexican War was, just, a tad bit shady and probably launched (in part) to distract America from the entire controversy brewing over slavery and to help some careers.
Yet, we did ‘kick their ass.’
It is hard to argue that present day Mexicans would have a claim to the land, because it was part of the peace treaty that ended the war.
Mexicans were left in a difficult situation with the new boarders, and were promised to be granted citizenship by the United States. This promise largely went ignored until the post war civil rights movement.
posted by Brian Miller on
The “US stole land from Mexico” argument is particularly specious.
Mexico itself was “stolen” from the Spanish, who themselves “stole” the land from the Aztecs.
Mexico became independent from Spain in 1821.
The territory the US annexed as a result of the Mexican-American war ending in 1848 was purchased by the US for $15 million (a vast sum back then). At the time of the purchase, fewer than 7,000 Mexicans lived in all of California — out of a population of 8 million total. California was “part of Mexico” for all of 27 years — and has been part of the USA for almost 150 years. The “claim” to California is specious at best.
The USA bought Arizona and New Mexico in the Gadsden purchase from the Mexican government, so that territory was voluntarily sold by the Mexican government. Only about 55,000 people lived in those territories when they were sold — out of a population of about 8 million.
In short, the whining about “reclaiming land we owned before you took it” is completely specious by anyone who examines who “owned” it and for how long it was “owned.”