In Chicago, a national assembly of Evangelical Lutherans urged its bishops to refrain from defrocking gay and lesbian ministers who violate a celibacy rule, but it rejected measures that would have permitted the ordination of gays churchwide.
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America's standards require ministers to "abstain from homosexual sexual relationships." But in the resolution, the assembly also "urges and encourages" bishops to refrain from or "demonstrate restraint in disciplining" ministers who are in a "mutual, chaste and faithful committed same-gender relationship."
So why not just accept, or even bless, such "faithful committed" relationsips? Because, as with the Democratic candidates who endorse civil unions but oppose same-sex marriage, it's a step that's still seen as too far to go.
At least the Evangelical Lutherans get credit for not being this hidebound!
31 Comments for “Too Far To Go”
posted by Xeno on
With friends like these, who needs enemies?
Seriously, who cares about the Evangelical Lutherans? It’s just another denomination destined for the waste bin of history. They’re not wroth of any attention.
posted by Lori Heine on
Thanks, Xeno, for that ignorant and mindless dismissal.
As an Evangelical Lutheran — who had close friends in attendance at that assembly — I can tell you that much progress was indeed made. The conservatives used every parliamentary dirty trick they could think of to try and shut down debate, but a number of allies stood on our side.
A woman who returned from that conference only early this morning spoke today at our adult forum, and she was very encouraged by what went on there.
Of course, the “wisdom” of someone who didn’t even attend will be thought, by many, to be superior…
This impatience, this need to see everything happen RIGHT NOW, is one of our main impediments to progress. It would be nice if things happened faster. But for those of us who live in the real world, progress comes more gradually.
posted by Lori Heine on
I’d like to add a word or two about Rose, the young woman (still in her early twenties) who spoke to us today about the assembly.
It’s heartening to see a young person so full of hope and resolve. She knows her own generation far better than we do, and they represent the future.
I hope all the old grumblers don’t need to die off — on our side, as well as on that of our opponents — before a new day can dawn.
posted by Randy on
“Because, as with the Democratic candidates who endorse civil unions but oppose same-sex marriage, it’s a step that’s still seen as too far to go.”
Oh for Pete’s sake. At least all the Democratic candidates are endorse civil unions. Few of the Republicans will even go THAT far.
posted by Bobby on
This story reminds me of the days when religious studies was one of my majors. I’m so glad I never completed that program. I could never imagine teaching what some religious private school wants me to teach whether I agree with it or not.
The resolution seems contrarian to their beliefs. “Homosexuality is bad, but we’ll tolerate it if it takes place in a loving relationship.”
“So why not just accept, or even bless, such “fathithful committed” relationsips? ”
—Because except for gays and a few liberals, most people aren’t ready for that. I hate to be the party pooper, but that’s reality. So for the time being, all of you can concentrate on same-sex dating.
posted by Lori Heine on
“The resolution seems contrarian to their beliefs. ‘Homosexuality is bad, but we’ll tolerate it if it takes place in a loving relationship.'”
Another know-nothing county heard from.
My ELCA church, along with a rapidly growing number of others, blesses same-sex unions. When I am ready to be married, I will be able to do it right there in my own, home church, with my own pastor presiding.
This isn’t about church teaching; it’s about hypocrisy. Many good, ordained ministers have been hounded out of the ministry because of this stupid rule, including the daughter of some very good friends of mine.
Gay “conservatives” need to stop rationalizing bigotry. Some see the issues clearly and take a position that’s consistent with everybody (for example, that those with a homosexual orientation should be free to serve in ministry with a lifelong mate, just as straights are), but others never miss an opportunity to eat their own.
It’s hard to tell whether this can be boiled down to simple “self-hate,” or whether it’s the same urge — so common in many “conservative” feminists — to be the king or queen of your own little dungheap.
posted by Bobby on
“It’s hard to tell whether this can be boiled down to simple “self-hate,” or whether it’s the same urge — so common in many “conservative” feminists — to be the king or queen of your own little dungheap.”
—It’s not self-hate. Look, I’ve seen plenty of homophobic liberals and homophobic conservatives to know that there are more important things than homophobia. I am a minority with many issues aside from my sexuality, my wishes rarely matter by the majority. So even if I wanted to get married in some evangelical church that disaproves of my “lifestyle” as they call it, it’s up to them, not up to me, so I look for things where I have complete control.
And I wouldn’t call “conservative” feminists self-haters. Those radical feminists that hate men but dress like them are the ones with problems.
Frankly, I don’t think gays should waste their time with straight churches. In fact, I already told my parents I’m not going back to any jewish temple for any services unless it’s a wedding, and even at those I feel really uncomfortable when the rabbi or the priest talks about how man and women compliment each other and all that BS.
posted by Greg Capaldini on
I have some sympathy for Bobby’s comment about “straight churches,” but I’d offer one observation about the language of wedding ceremonies in general: Churches have traditionally relied on procreation to guarantee future attendance, so it’s no surprise that the bride and groom are all but publicly encouraged to go home and consummate their bond at the earliest opportunity.
posted by Lori Heine on
Saying that you personally don’t care for straight churches is one thing; making ignoramus assertios — as if they apply to everybody — is another.
Again, if there’s any inconsistency in the debate now raging in the ELCA, it is the homophobes who are being inconsistent. There is nothing wrong with our wanting the same churches that bless our own unions not to chuck out our pastor if he or she is living in a committed relationship, blessed by God in our own church.
C’mon, it really isn’t all that hard to figure out. I don’t care whether you want to go to church in my denomatination or not — just kindly try not to engage your fingers on the keyboard before you engage your brain.
As for “conservative” feminists, I was not referring to feminists who wear dresses or vote Republican. What I was referring to is the fact that when a “minority” joins a coalition for power-grabbing like the Republican Party, the only gainful employment the party will offer him or her seems to be attacking his or her own.
That hasn’t a damn thing to do with anything as superficial as whether they wear lipstick or which gender they wish they were. If they want to make things as difficult as possible for women, then of course it logically follows that THEY are the ones who wish they were men. They’re not gonna stop, either, until every other woman wishes she was one, too.
posted by Craig2 on
Personally, I don’t understand why anyone would oppose the incremental approach to spousal equality anyway. So what if the Democrats support civil unions instead of same-sex marriage? As long as the attendant rights and responsibilities are equivalent to those of marriage, the civil union road to spousal equality will take care of lesbian and gay couples who are actually experiencing spousal discrimination now. Isn’t that what really matters, rather than the packaging?
Craig2
Wellington, NZ
posted by Bobby on
“What I was referring to is the fact that when a “minority” joins a coalition for power-grabbing like the Republican Party, the only gainful employment the party will offer him or her seems to be attacking his or her own.”
—All political parties are power-grabbing. Ask Janet Reno about her adventures in WACO. If liberals were in power, they would behave like republicans, probably a lot worse. Conservative feminists don’t attack their own, they want to improve their own. Liberal feminists for example tell women that when they’re being raped, they should not resist. Conservative fems tell them to scream, fight back, even use deadly force against an attack. That’s why they call it a culture war or a war of ideologies, each one fighting for absolute supremacy.
“If they want to make things as difficult as possible for women, then of course it logically follows that THEY are the ones who wish they were men.”
—Why you say that? Because they don’t support the Equal Rights Amendment that would grant women the same salary as men? There’s plenty of women making more money than men. Besides, women unlike men, get maternity leave, sometimes for 3 or more months. It’s also easier for a woman to leave home on time to be with her family while men are often expected to work late. Also, a lot of women take part time jobs to be with their kids after school. Maybe that’s why companies aren’t crazy about paying them more.
“Personally, I don’t understand why anyone would oppose the incremental approach to spousal equality anyway.”
—Because many people don’t see gay couples as real couples. They see us as roommates, fuck buddies, boyfriend, girlfriends, they don’t see our relationships as serious, they’re think we’re all promiscous people and in America sleeping around is only ok if nobody finds out. We’re not like the French where the President’s widow and the mistress take care of each other during the funeral of the man they both loved.
And frankly, I can’t really blame them. I had a date last night and this dude almost tried to grab my hand at the mall, I was very uncomfortable. I wanted him to be less gay, less obvious. When you’re straight, you’re the majority and you can do almost whatever you want without anyone being uncomfortable. When you’re gay, it’s the rest of society that’s not used to you.
Ask yourself this question, if we were the majority, would be allow heterosexuals to marry? I can very well imagine gay Popes and Bishops condemming unregulated heterosexual sex as unhealthy and dangerous. Face it, we’re all bigots down to the core 🙂
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Besides, women unlike men, get maternity leave, sometimes for 3 or more months. It’s also easier for a woman to leave home on time to be with her family while men are often expected to work late. Also, a lot of women take part time jobs to be with their kids after school. Maybe that’s why companies aren’t crazy about paying them more.
The problem, Bobby, is when the expectation that women are going to behave a certain way or have certain things happen takes precedence is used to justify such things, versus the actual behavior itself.
For example, “You should be paid less because you’re a woman and might get pregnant” is different than, “Your pregnancy is clearly interfering with your ability to perform your job and is therefore affecting your compensation.” The latter is permissible, the former is not.
Furthermore, the United States already has an Equal Pay Act, which stipulates that there cannot be a difference in pay based solely on gender for men and women doing identical work.
posted by Lori Heine on
Thanks, NDT. That’s an excellent point.
You aren’t going to get through to Bobby, because he’s surrendered his chance to live in the real world for the opportunity to live in his own little cartoon.
For example, as a gay woman, I “MUST” be a liberal. I have given ample evidence, in my postings here, that I don’t fit well into that pigeonhole, but as Bobby would have to THINK to understand this — and thinking seems to cause him actual physical pain — he isn’t about to bother.
I’ve simply come to a point in my life where I find the “gals might get pregnant so they shouldn’t get paid much” argument as comical and pathetic as it really is. It is a cover for male loserism and a narcotic for the hopelessly mediocre.
Truth be told, the Bobbys of the world NEED affirmative action and other forms of artificially-enforced “equality” a hell of a lot more than women do. They make the perfect face-saving device, excusing mediocrity forever and ever more.
What liberals probably don’t realize is that their little boosts for women — artificial and often insulting as they are — will one day become needed by those men who themselves in need of affirmative action.
And there are at least as many of them as there are women.
Successful men understand this, and are willing to be good sports about something that is only a temporary phase for women. Will the workplace itself adapt to become more family-friendly? Will computer technology give women the ability to better juggle work and family? Of course these things are inevitable.
The petty male whiners of this world, with their fiction-based superiority complexes, had better be careful what they wish for.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
You aren’t going to get through to Bobby, because he’s surrendered his chance to live in the real world for the opportunity to live in his own little cartoon.
(shrug) Hope springs eternal. And I also find that making that distinction often helps open up the conversation more.
posted by Lori Heine on
Well, in a couple of days I’ll be on my way to the Minnesota Garlic Festival. Lots of Lutherans up there — it’s practically the Lutheran capital of the world.
I’ll listen to the folk music, flirt with the handsome women in their flannel shirts, enjoy the special, guest-star appearance by Count Dracula and have some garlic ice cream.
Maybe, while I’m there, I’ll get more of a “scoop” on all that wen on at the churchwide assembly.
posted by Bobby on
“You aren’t going to get through to Bobby, because he’s surrendered his chance to live in the real world for the opportunity to live in his own little cartoon.”
—-“People who disagree with me” (PWDWM), of which many of them are liberals, often characterize me as insane and illogical while they claim to be the voice of reason. So your insult doesn’t surprise me.
“but as Bobby would have to THINK to understand this — and thinking seems to cause him actual physical pain — he isn’t about to bother.”
—It doesn’t matter how many conservative beliefs you have if all you do is attack conservatives while praising liberals. Your action speak louder than your words.
“I’ve simply come to a point in my life where I find the “gals might get pregnant so they shouldn’t get paid much” argument as comical and pathetic as it really is. It is a cover for male loserism and a narcotic for the hopelessly mediocre.”
—You find it comical? In Venezuela a pregnant woman gets 6 months of maternity leave, with full pay. Which is why most Venezuelan companies are afraid of hiring women. Instead of condemming arguments you should explore the logic of them. I’ve also heard report that some females in active duty get pregnant as well. Inspite of this, I still support females in the military. And if they bring back the draft (God help us), I hope they get drafted as well.
Oh, and I would also appreciate if women could do some physical labor as well. At my office, whenever they make us do grunt work beneath our white collars for presentations or because the agenycy decides to move to another place, it’s men who have to carry heavy boxes, men who have to do heavy labor, women only clean. This offends me very much. Just because you have a vagina doesn’t mean you can’t carry a heavy box.
“Truth be told, the Bobbys of the world NEED affirmative action and other forms of artificially-enforced “equality” a hell of a lot more than women do.”
—I work in advertising, missy, I get hired on the basis of my portfolio, no affirmative action, no race, no gender bullshit.
“Will the workplace itself adapt to become more family-friendly?”
—Sure, they don’t let you smoke, they want fat employees to pay $5 of their paychecks for their supposed high insurance costs, they make you work longer hours. I’m sure they’re gonna be real happy about setting up day care centers.
“The petty male whiners of this world, with their fiction-based superiority complexes, had better be careful what they wish for.”
—The “petty male whiners” are sick and tired of the double stanrdards. Women want equality but they also want the perks that come with having a vagina and boobs. They want men to open doors, they want men to give them special breaks, to avoid telling un-PC jokes are work. It’s no wonder so many women work in human resources, they have a natural ability to fuck up a workplace with all kinds of stupid rules and regulations. Not to mention the poor dude who got sued for discussing a Seinfeld episode in front of a female coworker.
And by the way, I don’t hate women, I just hate the fucking double standard. My last senior copywriter was a woman and you have no idea how she could get away with everything, no one would scream at her, no one treated her badly, she could even call my boss a pet name. And by the way, I liked her, I got along with her, but she could be a real bitch sometimes and I knew that because she was a woman I had to be careful with her. God help me if she ever got offended by anything I said and did.
Of course, it’s ok if men are offended. But women? Hell no! As the bible says “There’s no worse hell than a woman scorned.”
posted by Lori Heine on
Oh, poor Bobby. Poor, poor little Bobby…
“It doesn’t matter how many conservative beliefs you have if all you do is attack conservatives while praising liberals. Your action speak louder than your words.”
I am neither Coca-Cola nor Pepsi; I am a Libertarian. Cookie-cutter thinking doesn’t cut it with us. Bobby, it’s not surprising you don’t understand anyone who doesn’t fit into one simple little cubbyhole or the other.
Everybody in your little world wears either a black Stetson or a white one. If somebody comes along with a bright purple one, your head is gonna explode.
Whether you hate women or not does not concern me in the slightest. It’s pretty obvious — despite your protests to the contrary — that you do hate us, but that’s no skin off my ass.
Straight guys can get away with talking like misogynistic loonies who want to strangle the next woman they see with her own pantyhose, but just a little friendly advice. Gay men who talk like that only reinforce the stereotype that, supposedly, you “all” hate women.
I know how wrong that stereotype is. For the sake of other gay men, it would be helpful if you didn’t go out of your way to perpetuate it.
Cheer up, Bobby. Maybe the next time the frat boys in Washington start a war, they really will draft women. Then a lot of them can get killed, and it you can be real happy…
posted by Lori Heine on
“and it you can be real happy…”
— And I can get drafted and learn how to type.
Incidentally, Bobby, I could certainly match you horror-story for horror-story about bad coworkers of the opposite sex.
I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard THESE little gems from the guys in the office:
“You don’t understand what a BAD DAY I’m having!”
“I’m so ignored! So slighted! Nobody appreciates me!”
Or my own, personal favorite:
“You can’t TALK to me like that!” (Always said to customers) — or this variation on the theme: “Don’t take that TONE with me!” (Again, to customers).
Then there’s the jerk who tried to dump my mother off in my driveway instead of taking her back to the nursing home after she’d been taken to the ER. “It’s the end of my shift! Waaaaaah!” Right within earshot of my mother, who really needed to hear that sort of shit at a time like that.
He was not a coworker. Thank the Lord for that. Nor was the guy who answered the phone at the hospital when I called to complain about the ambulance fiasco. More great male customer service.
“Waaah! It’s just the beginning of my shift and you’re ruining my day!”
Most women hate having guys working with them because they fuck everything up, take credit for everything good that happens and then brag about how indispensible they are — even though many of the guys I worked with spent at least half the day looking for some woman to do his work for him.
Perspectives differ here, Bobby, just like they do in so many other areas.
posted by Lori Heine on
Maybe there are simply bad coworkers. Perhaps they’re jerks, and their gender has little or nothing to do with it.
Although I can find plenty of examples of bad male coworkers, I can think of just as many who were women. The difference? I’m capable of seeing it as an issue of individual responsibility rather than group identity.
Bobby, “conservative” that he is, seems unable to think this way.
So, Bobby, are you a REAL conservative, or do you just like to dress up as one on Halloween?
posted by dalea on
Lori, does the fact that the churches in Scandanavia bless gay unions get brought up among Lutherans? When I was a Lutheran child, the churches we went to usually had something like ‘Sverigeskyrkan’ (Church of Sweden) on the conerstone. And frequently a blessing from the Bishop of Upsalla floating around somewhere.
One strategy I have heard for Lutherans on gay marriage is to visit the ancestral land and get married. Two gay guys from Minnesota go to Norway and have a full Lutheran service wedding. Then return and present their local congregation with a marriage certificate signed by Priests of the Church of Norway. Or Denmark. Or Sweden. Way to force the issue.
There are lots of Lutherans in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Northern Illinois, Nebraska and the Dakotas. Enjoy Minneapolis, it is a beautiful city.
posted by Bobby on
“Straight guys can get away with talking like misogynistic loonies who want to strangle the next woman they see with her own pantyhose, but just a little friendly advice. Gay men who talk like that only reinforce the stereotype that, supposedly, you “all” hate women.”
—Oh yeah? Well I don’t give a damn about stereotypes. And why would I be mysogynistic? I don’t have to date women, sleep with them, get rejected by them. I think I’m pretty lucky that I don’t have to deal with the drama my straight friends deal with. Not all gay men get along with women and go shopping with them. In fact, I find straight women can’t be trusted, the minute they get a boyfriend or a husband, you’re out of the picture, you’re replaced. But a straight man on the other hand, he always keeps his friends no matter how many wives or girlfriends he gets.
“Most women hate having guys working with them because they fuck everything up, take credit for everything good that happens and then brag about how indispensible they ”
—Not where I work, where I work it’s women who get all the promotions.
“Perspectives differ here, Bobby, just like they do in so many other areas.”
—-Sure, but you hate it when anyone disagrees with you, I’ve seen your game before.
posted by Lori Heine on
“Lori, does the fact that the churches in Scandanavia bless gay unions get brought up among Lutherans?”
Actually, I have heard people in my church talk about this. I know people who travel regularly back to Norway or Sweden, and many of us enjoy following the news in these countries.
I like to read Aftenposten (the English-language version online) so I can keep up with the major events in Norway.
For me, the issue would be money. Lately the only place I’ve been able to afford to visit has been Minnesota. Depending on what’s going on in the U.S. politically when I’m ready to get married, my partner and I may go to Norway to celebrate our holy union in a Lutheran church there (the cathedral at Nidaros, perhaps).
That sounds like it would be a beautiful experience.
I am looking forward to being in Minnesota again this summer. My family sort of puts together the Garlic Festival, from the “headquarters” of our farm just outside Howard Lake. The place is 110 years old, and we all have memories going back a long time (though not, in my case, quite 110 years).
If you’re ever in the area in mid-August, Dalea, you might enjoy the Minnesota Garlic Festival. I saw a number of same-sex couples there last year, and we were all made to feel perfectly welcome.
posted by Lori Heine on
Bobby, I’m not going to argue with you about whether boys are stinkier than girls or vice versa.
As I said in the last comment where I mentioned the subject, I think how one behaves in a workplace setting — and how one behaves anywhere else — is more a matter of individual responsibility and personal character than whatever gender that person happens to be.
As a Libertarian, I reject identity politics. Conservativess used to claim that they rejected it, too, but I’ve never seen much evidence of it. When they launch into Limbaugh-eque ranting points on blog commentary threads, the whole gist of which seems to be that “all” men are this way and “all” women that, they are certainly engaging in identity politics just as blatant as anything the liberals have ever cooked up.
I am on my way out of town for a few days, so I will not be available to fight with you. I’m spending the weekend with some of the greatest people I know — most of them liberals. I may disagree with them on many issues, but I won’t sit across the family table from them and demonize them as Evil Liberals from Outer Space.
It’s refreshing being around mature people who actually discuss ideas without shouting or name-calling. It will make for a much better vacation than sitting around thinking about how I ought to hate them because they don’t agree with me on everything under the sun.
If you spend all your time at the office saying, “Your’re a liberal,” “You’re a woman,” “You’re a straight person” or hanging whatever other label on them you feel you need to to be true to the team, you must be a barrel of laughs to work with. I’d like to hear your coworkers’ side of the story.
Libertarians believe in the power and the uniqueness of the individual. We believe that to mindlessly dismiss other people with simplistic labels is insulting to them.
But if you insist on thinking that way, you’re really only cheating yourself.
posted by Bobby on
“As a Libertarian, I reject identity politics.”
—Isn’t that an oxymoron? “As a jew, I reject religious labels.”
“Conservativess used to claim that they rejected it, too, but I’ve never seen much evidence of it.”
—I haven’t heard that ever, conservatives are very proud of their principles, which we sometimes refer to them as American principles, but that’s debatable. I’ll give you this, John Edwards was right about the two Americas, but the division isn’t between rich and poor but between conservative and liberal/progressive.
“It’s refreshing being around mature people who actually discuss ideas without shouting or name-calling.”
—You mean they don’t even raise their voice? That’s amazing, simply amazing. Maybe they’re on prozac. LOL
“If you spend all your time at the office saying, “Your’re a liberal,” “You’re a woman,” “You’re a straight person” or hanging whatever other label on them you feel you need to to be true to the team, you must be a barrel of laughs to work with. I’d like to hear your coworkers’ side of the story.”
—You really must think I’m retarded. I’m very nice at work, very polite, if I argue about anything is my work when others try to fuck it over. I rarely discuss politics in the workplace. And for the record, women in the office get along with me, I treat them like equals. But of course, people like you think that I must be an asshole because I dare to have unpopular opinions.
“Libertarians believe in the power and the uniqueness of the individual. We believe that to mindlessly dismiss other people with simplistic labels is insulting to them.”
—I would think libertarians support free speech and know the difference between having a controversial opinion and actually hurting someone. It’s liberals who invited terms like “hate speech,” which is completely Orwellian and undemocratic. Speech is never hate speech. Comments can be hateful, opinions can be hateful, but speech is a sacred right.
That’s why educated peopel who don’t support gay rights will discuss my arguments instead of calling me an f-g. Liberals have a lot to learn from them.
posted by Lori Heine on
“But of course, people like you think that I must be an asshole because I dare to have unpopular opinions.”
Oh, for crying out loud. Princess Bobby, get over yourself.
I don’t care what your opinions are. From now on, when you make one of your asinine generalizations, I will simply say, “There goes Bobby.”
You seem to be trying to impress some audience of stern conservative straight people. You want to convince them that you really, really, really, really, really, REALLY are conservative.
(A) The only audience is in your mind and
(B) The people you are so hell-bent to win over never will be.
You’re simply making a fool of yourself. Go spout your hack talk-jock jargon at somebody else.
posted by Xeno on
[quote]Thanks, Xeno, for that ignorant and mindless dismissal.[/quote]
You’re quite welcome Lori.
[quote]Of course, the “wisdom” of someone who didn’t even attend will be thought, by many, to be superior…
This impatience, this need to see everything happen RIGHT NOW, is one of our main impediments to progress. It would be nice if things happened faster. But for those of us who live in the real world, progress comes more gradually.[/quote]
But for those who are impatient, why should should they even waste their time with people that can’t even support them to the fullest? Why can’t they start a church or denomination of their own? There’s no need to wait or get angry out of impatience, just move on to a better place. That’s what the founders of the Metropolitan Community Church have done, and they’ve done a great job for GBLT Christians needing a haven from spiritual abuse.
Personally, I’m Catholic and enjoy the traditions and veneration of saints, however at the same time I would like to see the godforsaken Roman Catholic Church go down into flames, so something good can raise from its ashes. It has happened before, there’s no reason why it cannot happen again.
posted by Lori Heine on
Xeno, I appreciate what you’re saying, but I did attend an MCC for a time and didn’t like it. It taught very little that I agreed with. The other “gay” churches in town tend to be very fundamentalist, which is not my cup of tea either.
I don’t believe gays should compromise on religion any more than straight people are required to. Freedom means variety of choice.
Truth be told, I came back to the Lutheran church of my youth — rediscovered it anew — and now attend there because I believe what it teaches.
I believe that you, as a Catholic, and I, as a Lutheran, should stay with the traditions we love — even when the powers-that-be in them are hostile. I believe we will outlast them.
The past may be against us, but the future is with us. That is a part of what faith means to me.
posted by Last Of The Moderate Gays on
Lori:
First, GOOD LUCK in changing the ridiculous rules of your church for the better.
Second, while I appreciate your views on this, I think you might be somewhat dismissive of the viewpoint that sometimes it’s better to simply get up and “vote with your feet” than it is to engage in battle. For some of us, church is a place to go for quiet, peaceful reflection and solace. I have no desire to battle with fellow parishoners, regardless of how noble my intentions may be. I simply choose to go somewhere where I am automatically welcome. I don’t see it as an issue of “you’re wrong and I’m right;” I just see it as an opportunity to lead by example.
I think that Americans tend to look at issues like this in a political context when they should not (again, just my opinion). In other words, we’re not talking about gay marriage, employment non-discrimination, etc. — we’re talking about religion.
Nevertheless, again, I admire your intentions and wish you the best of luck. And, that Garlic Festival sounds wonderful, but, as I get older, I have already discovered foods I can no longer eat; garlic being among them. As Bette Davis said, “Growing old is a bitch!”
posted by Bobby on
“You seem to be trying to impress some audience of stern conservative straight people.”
—Don’t be silly, conservatives are very independent people, we don’t care about impressing anyone but ourselves. If I wanted to impress those conservatives who disaprove of homosexuality, I would become an ex-gay. I ain’t trying to win anyone over, some people agree with me, some people don’t. Divide and conquer is my game. And by the way, I am treated well in conservative circles in part because I’m not trying to force anyone to agree with me, nor do I go calling people retarded like you do.
posted by Craig2 on
Actually, Lori, the Metropolitan Community Church isn’t all that large a denomination outside North America. From what I’ve read about it, it does tend to have a broad-based menu of possible traditions and liturgies, but I was unfortunate
enough to attend a fundamentalist
elementary and high school and its Pentecostal origins put me off.
Down here, there are only two MCC branches, in Auckland and Christchurch. Most LGBT Christians I know are members of mainline denominations, mostly
Anglican or Methodist (with a
handful of Presbyterians, although that NZ denomination is
riddled with fundies and going
through a nosedive in membership).
Craig2
Wellington, NZ
posted by Lori Heine on
Well, Last, I just returned from the airport and although it is insanely early in the morning I do have plenty of garlic buds from the festival. (Something called “Music” garlic, which so far as I can tell, has yet to make a sound.)
No prozac, Bobby, but garlic made us mellow…