Fox's Bill O'Reilly goes off the deep end with a segment titled "Violent Lesbian Gangs a Growing Problem," built around an interview with "Fox News crime analyst" and anti-gay activist Rod Wheeler.
According to the O'Reilly Factor website:
The Factor [O'Reilly] was astonished by Wheeler's revelations. "I never would have thought of this. We associate homosexuality more with a social movement, not a criminal movement."
Wheeler paints a delirious picture of the USA as a country run amok with hundreds of violent lesbian gangs-more than 150 gangs in the Washington area alone!-forcibly converting young girls to homosexuality and calling themselves the "pink-pistol packing group." This led the actual Pink Pistols, a law-abiding, pro-gun gay group, to fire back. [Update: Wheeler apologizes]
Alas, too many social conservatives would rather pander luridly to anti-gay bigotry than consider the worth of working with gays who are themselves critical of the big government liberal-left agenda, such as (in this case) the pro-Second Amendment Pink Pistols. Bigotry first, it seems. (initial hat tip: Andrew Sullivan)
More. Interestingly, the Washington Post just ran this story about a lesbian FBI agent who used her firearm to foil a break-in of her neighbor's home. One can only imagine the fervid spin O'Reilly would give to an account of this incident!
109 Comments for “Armed Lesbians Attack!!!”
posted by Lori Heine on
I’m a member of our local chapter of the Pink Pistols, and I find this nonsense immensely frustrating.
You’d think somebody like O’Reilly would like the Pink Pistols — that he’d consider our organization a good idea. But it has become evident that for the reactionaries who hide behind the “conservative” label, it’s more important to go on demonizing gays than admitting that a growing number of us are conservative or libertarian.
I’m not even sure I believe that O’Reilly didn’t know better than to report that crap about marauding lesbian gangs. I think it’s very likely he knew what the Pink Pistols really were. It may even have been part of his agenda to smear us.
posted by Bill from FL on
Wonder where GLAAD is going to be on this?
posted by Brian Miller on
Oh, Lori, this is Bill O’Reilly! He hates gay folks and loves lurid depictions of them. It sells to the FOX News “base.”
Frankly, I’m a little disappointed that his depiction of the PP’s as lesbian pistol-packin’ gang mommas is just another of his fevered fantasies. The idea of a group of armed Lesbian Avengers is damn cool, IMO!
On the bad side, a number of NRA partisans have e-mailed me, a bit pissed off about O’Reilly’s depiction, as they anticipate that it will increase “bipartisan” support for gun control, with Kristian Krazies teaming up with Lefty Loons to further eviscerate the Second Amendment. As usual, Libertarians will have to hop in to thwart the statists’ ambitions. . .
posted by Brian Miller on
Wonder where GLAAD is going to be on this?
Somewhere west of Ulan Bataar, I would guess.
posted by Bobby on
You folks who don’t watch the O’reilly factor are mistaken. First of all, it wasn’t O’reilly who mentioned pink pistols, it was his guest. After he found out his guest had been mistaken, he set the record straight the next day. O’reilly never attacked pink pistols or the second amendment, he’s very supportive of the right to bear arms, specially after Katrina when a lot of good people had their guns confiscated by the New Orleans gestapo.
And frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised if armed lesbian gangs did exists. We are everywhere.
posted by Greg Capaldini on
Lesbian terrorists are nothing new to those who have seen “Hothead Paisan” comic books at the various gay bookstores. (http://www.hotheadpaisan.com/)
posted by Craig Dziwulski on
Hey Bill from FL —
It looks like GLAAD has put out an alert about the O’Reilly story last week:
http://www.glaad.org/action/calls_detail.php?id=4031
posted by Lori Heine on
“And frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised if armed lesbian gangs did exists. We are everywhere.”
— And Bobby, this would mean…what?!
Excuse me, but how many armed gangs — gangs that terrorize people daily — are composed of heterosexual men?
If one gang out of 1,000 were female — even if they were lesbians — that would magically tip the scale?
Yawn.
I can’t answer for what other people are going to do. We are individuals, all of us, and we each have free will. Conservatives used to believe that, which meant that people who just-so-happened to share some characteristic with other people were not automatically lumped together with them as if they were all part of the Blob.
Now that “conservatives” have started thinking just like liberals — nobody counts as an individual anymore, it’s all about the group identity and collective consciousness — we’ll probably see many more fright stories about murderous lesbians from outer space.
posted by Brian Miller on
But Lori, conservatives have *always* thought like liberals. Their big debate isn’t whether you should be group-managed by the government or not, but rather which philosophy should dominate the thinking of the collective managers in government — a liberal one or a conservative one.
The labels long ago stopped having any real meaning outside of explaining which branch of statism a given socialist subscribed to!
posted by Lori Heine on
Brian, you are so right.
I wonder if things would have turned out differently if Barry Goldwater had won in ’64. Johnson won using innuendo, stereotyping, hysteria-mongering and downright lies. I guess what the Right Wing learned from that was that the sort of honest, forthright and thoughtful conservatism of Goldwater wouldn’t fly. Maybe this was when they decided to tear a page out of the liberals’ playbook and beat them at their own game.
posted by Jorge on
I volunteer for an organization that is working with gays in foster care. Think about that for one minute. Armed lesbian and gay gangs? Hell yeah I believe it!
I think this posting is doing a great disservice to the O’Reilly Factor. I saw that segment, and it was done entirely in the spirit of “clueless O’Reilly is curious”. Sometimes these segments are a bust. I wish O’Reilly had a more intelligent guest–I mean anyone with some imagination can give you a fair reason *why* there are gay and lesbian gangs. I got the sense O’Reilly wished that too. Considering that this guy has knowingly booked such guests as [choke!] Mike Rogers and not a few less controversial gay figures like Tammy Bruce, I am not inclined for a moment to think that he went “off the deep end” or is characterized by “lurid” streaks. I’d give him the benefit of the doubt.
posted by Regan DuCasse on
I wish Sakia Gunn (no pun intended) had been able to defend herself. But she was just a girl, not even of legal age to drive. With physical assault a very real issue in the gay community, I like the idea of trained self defense.
It figures that anti gay straight people would turn a legitimate citizen’s patrol of gay folks into a thug tribe.
Why is it that whatever gay folks do, anti gay straight folks complain it’s at their expense?!
posted by Craig2 on
My perception of most of Fox”News” is that it’s puerile,
populist sock con tabloid format television. I understand that its US ratings have been in free fall for quite some time, and I can’t comprehend why Murdoch still owns it.
And frankly, if this is the same Bill O’Reilly who invented the imaginary “War on Christmas,” I’d have to ask why anyone would believe him in the first place.
Sure, isolated individual lesbian and gay psychopaths like Aileen Wuornos and Jeffrey Dahmer exist. However, the majority of violent criminals, gang members and serial killers are straight.
For the most part, gangs exist to
demonstrate the violent male
heterosexuality of their members in any case, often through violence against women.
Craig2
Wellington, NZ
posted by Jason on
O’Reilly’s arrogance never ceases to amaze me. I watched part of GLAAD’s response on his show tonight, and although he admitted that his guest may have taken it too far, he insisted that it was still “a story.” What about the far more numerous, far more violent, and far more insidious gangs that rove around every major city in America? Isn’t there any news pertaining to them? No, of course not. That would be reflective of journalistic integrity, something O’Reilly alienated himself from long ago. That America gobbles this tripe up is telling.
posted by Craig2 on
Okay, granted dysfunctional and abusive parenting may mean that dysfunctional and antisocial learnt behaviour may or may not be there in adults, straight or gay.
And yes, there are violent and abusive lesbian and gay couples,
partner rapists, and other misfits out there, but *not* due to their homosexuality. They should be treated with parity and severity for their crimes against others.
As for its causes, try their upbringing. More childhood intervention programmes need to deal with these problems when they begin, rather than as an ambulance at the bottom of a cliff.
Craig2
Wellington, NZ
posted by Bobby on
First of all, there is a war on christmas. When your town won’t allow a private citizen to set up a nativity scene but it does allow muslim or jewish symbols that’s bias. When a school won’t take the kids to see A Christmas Carol because it contains religious elements, that’s also bias. Gays are not the only people discriminated in the world. And when I have to do a christmas card at work and I’m not allowed to write “Merry Christmas” because a minority of wacky people might be offended, that’s fucking bias.
As for Bill O’reilly, he covered a story that was newsworthy. He’s already covered other gangs ad nauseam, this was a great segment.
posted by Lori Heine on
“As for Bill O’reilly, he covered a story that was newsworthy. He’s already covered other gangs ad nauseam, this was a great segment.”
If you think the agenda behind this “story” was simply to report the news, then I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn I’d like to sell you.
This was all about fanning flames of hysteria against gays who might — gasp! — actually defend themselves when attacked. Thus were the Pink Pistols smeared. The very notion that the Second Amendment might just apply to gay people, too, is abhorrent to these creeps.
Their message to gay America? “Every time you defend yourself against attack, we will spin it as an attack by you. Lie back, close your eyes, take it and like it.”
posted by Regan DuCasse on
Bobby…when it comes to the perception of whose discrimination is more severe, even life threatening, Christians and Christian icons, are not THAT hard up.
Get back to us, when a Christian kid is so bullied because of his chosen Christian lifestyle, he commits suicide rather than take the punishment any longer.
I hardly think NOT issuing Christmas cards at work, is as big a deal as wondering if you’re going to have a job at all.
Religious people have PLENTY of venues, socio/political representation, economic power and historical influence. The occasional situation in which you might annoy someone, hardly rates a mention.
Especially in this forum.
posted by Bobby on
“If you think the agenda behind this “story” was simply to report the news, then I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn I’d like to sell you.”
—Bill is not a homophobe. He supports same-sex adoption as a better alternative to have a kid remain in the system, he supports domestic partnerships, and when Rosie was pissing off everyone with her “America caused 9/11” rants, he never attacked her for being a lesbian or being fat. He attacked her views, not her sexuality or looks.
Bill is famous for covering stories other media channels ignore. Like the time a Vermont judge gave a self-confessed child molester probation. Thanks to bill, a lot of pedo-loving judges are being exposed, and some are on their way out.
“The very notion that the Second Amendment might just apply to gay people, too, is abhorrent to these creeps.”
—Do you ever talk to anyone of those so-called “creeps.” I sat on a radio station with a representative of the Christian Coalition in Miami. The only thing we could agree about was the second amendment, and when I asked him directly if he would try to deny the second amendment to gays, he said no.
Besides, it’s the liberals that hate the second amendment. And let’s not compare a gang with private citizens. One lesbian fighting one man is fine, 10 lesbians against 1 man is not fine.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Let’s see now.
The lesbians in New York City tried to argue that they were justified in nearly killing a man because he allegedly called them names.
The gay and lesbian teenagers in Washington, DC, stabbed, assaulted, and nearly killed another teenager because he belonged to a rival gang.
And who is the “LGBT community” yelling at about it?
Bill O’Reilly.
Personally, I’m far more pissed at the lesbians who thought it was in any way acceptable to use a “heterosexual panic” excuse for trying to kill another person, or at the “LGBT” gang members who apparently think sexual orientation is a good reason for banding together to intimidate and beat the sh*t out of other people. If anyone’s to blame for this situation, they are.
But why blame or criticize other “LGBT community” members, which has the potential to make you wholly unpopular and get YOU called names, versus blaming and criticizing Bill O’Reilly, who had nothing to do with these peoples’ misuse of their sexual orientation to justify hideous behavior, but which has the opposite effect?
posted by Lori Heine on
“Do you ever talk to anyone of those so-called ‘creeps.'”
Actually, yes I do. Having graduated from a Southern Baptist college, and still having a number of conservative evangelical friends, I talk to them all the time.
My point was certainly not that they were all creeps. But as conservatives keep reminding us, individual choice means individual responsibility. Those who do make the choice to hate gays most certainly are creeps.
As for the fact that gay people sometimes behave badly, I never meant to imply they didn’t. My point is that when we do, it’s all blown totally out of proportion and blamed on all of us. We all get tarred with the same broad brush.
We should insist that when something bad is done, that particular individual or group of individuals be held accountable for it — and not, in the broader sense, a mass of people, the overwhelming majority of whom had absolutely nothing to do with it.
posted by Lori Heine on
And again, in the spirit of individual responsibility, if Bill O’Reily chooses to have a loose cannon on his program, he is ultimately responsible — not for what his guest may say, but for how he responds to it.
Whenever somebody Fox doesn’t like says or does something foolish, its reporters practically hound them into their graves. As far as I know, Bill O’Reilly has yet to calm the waters by offering a responsible, adult explanation of the brouhaha he started on his program.
These people who run around preaching responsibility all the time don’t seem to like it much when it comes back to bite them on the ass.
posted by Jorge on
There’s not enough evidence to really argue it yet, but I suspect this whole deal fits neatly into minority communities’ and liberals’ tendency to pooh-pooh or ignore things that threaten their conception that minorities don’t have any dirty laundry about them.
I still don’t really understand what it is about Bill O’Reilly’s actions here deserve the response that he’s getting. What, he had an anti-gay guest? Oh, boo-hoo. His guest said something false? He corrected it. He thinks there’s a War on Christmas? If we’re gonna debate character here, I think his list of pro-gay guests and liberal to moderate stance on gay rights are a little more relevant.
The lesbian gang that brutally attacked a straight man in my homedown is dirty laundry. It was being covered before O’Reilly talked about it. Those womens’ sense of entitlement was absolutely gross, and begged some attempt to explain it. That’s the real reason people here are angry, because independent-minded people have started asking questions that do not look like they have pleasant answers for us.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
We should insist that when something bad is done, that particular individual or group of individuals be held accountable for it
Indeed we should.
But instead, we’re busy yelling at Bill O’Reilly, who had nothing to do with it.
Take care of the first part of that statement, and I promise you, blaming of the “mass of people” will quickly diminish. But what’s happening now is merely recreating Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton’s shrieking “racist” any time someone dares to question or bring up the behavior of a black person, and is creating a similar effect relative to gay peoples’ credibility.
posted by Lori Heine on
Again, I don’t believe the point is whether gays ever misbehave or whether they do not. When somebody comes onto your TV program and makes outrageous statements, looking comically incredulous is not enough. What O’Reilly should have asked is something along the lines of “and your point…?”
I repeat that the guest on the program, Wheeler, seems to have been trying to stir up hysteria against gays in general. Whether the behavior of certain gay people was entirely sterling or not is not the issue.
There are indeed very decent hetero conservatives out there, and I’m not saying Bill O’Reilly might not be one of them. But conservatives need to show some gumption when dealing with the lunatics who attach themselves to the Right Wing.
O’Reilly is not responsible for what Wheeler said. But apparently the guy had a history of saying crazy stuff about gays. Surely there are enough decent (and sane) conservatives out there that Fox doesn’t need to scrape the very bottom of the barrel for guests.
posted by Bobby on
Wheeler is a cop, he deals with the scum of society, be that straight scum, black scum, gay scum, white scum, etc. So maybe his perception was a little biased, but O’reilly did ask him relevant questions and when things were wrong, he did correct them the following day, and invited a GLAAD representative to speak and was very nice to him. Fair and balanced? Absolutely.
posted by Marc on
Oreilly did the responsible thing by correcting his guest’s numerous mistakes the next day, but no one is going to tell me that Bill and company didnt know what they were getting themselves into. Wheeler is a frequent guest and often uses gays as a hot button issue. And why didnt Oreilly offer a dissenting view the day of Wheeler’s appearance instead of after the fact? Fair and balanced? Not exactly.
posted by Lori Heine on
My goodness, one MUST be careful what one says about the No-Spin Zone!
If Bill tried to set the record straight, then cosmic — I’m great with that.
But hear this: his guest endangered my life and the life of every lesbian in this country. He smeared the Pink Pistols — an organization of fine, decent, law-abiding, patriotic gay Americans who support the Second Amendment.
The country will be a little more dangerous for lesbians if this clown keeps up his little campaign to smear us all. I don’t have to like that, and I’ll accept no second-hand apologies for it.
If Bill gets a pass, he gets a pass. I don’t give a fat damn, however, that Wheeler is a cop. I believe his purpose was to threaten the safety of innocent people, and he has slandered good Americans.
I will not be punished for the actions of other people — people I don’t even know, who live thousands of miles away from me — even if they just-so-happen to be lesbians. And people like Wheeler will get my gun when, as the saying goes, they pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
The country will be a little more dangerous for lesbians if this clown keeps up his little campaign to smear us all. I don’t have to like that, and I’ll accept no second-hand apologies for it.
And this country will be a lot more dangerous for everyone else if our response to gays and lesbians committing violent acts against straight people is to get mad at those who point it out.
Personally, I am of no mind to see the gay community have a Decatur moment — and that is exactly what this looks like to me.
posted by ColoradoPatriot on
From Wikipedia:
On August 18, 2006 Dwayne Buckle was assaulted and stabbed outside of the IFC Center movie theater in Greenwich Village by a group of seven lesbians. Buckle was selling copies of his DVD THE MINORITY to pedestrians. After saying “hello” to Patreese Johnson, he said the group started to “dog me out,” and that he fired back with insults. He said one of the women spat on him and he spat back – and then their fists started flying.
Buckle said he had put his hands up to defend himself when Johnson slashed him in the abdomen with a steak knife. The women continued beating on him, and by the time the attack was over, Buckle said, “I felt like I was going to die.”
The women said Buckle called them “fucking dykes,” and told them he would “fuck you all straight” before throwing a lit cigarette at one of them. The knife attack from Patreese Johnson resulted in a lacerated liver and severed stomach.
In April 2007, three of the four were serving six-month jail terms for attempted assault. The other four of the women are on trial charged with first-degree gang-assault. Patreese Johnson, who stabbed Buckle, was also being changed with attempted murder.
The four women were convicted April 18, 2007.
* Patreese Johnson, 11 years
* Renata Hill, 8 years
* Venice Brown, 5 years
* Terrain Dandridge, 3 and 1/2 years.
********************************
If BO had reported these facts I doubt anyone would have been upset. But Bill didn’t report these facts. He (and his cohort) reported baseless lies and outlandish accusations whose aim was to defame and vilify homosexuals (a maneuver that suits Bobby and ND30 just fine, anything that demonizes homosexuals is A-OK to them). When it came time to apologize for his (and his cohort’s) lies, Bill pulled an ND30 and played the victim. Bad form, Bill. True to form, ND30.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
And again, despite having a clear record of what these hateful and violent lesbians did and then tried to get out of based on their sexual orientation, who does CP blast?
Bill O’Reilly.
Like I said, Decatur moment.
posted by ColoradoPatriot on
ND30: “Like I said, Decatur moment.”
Huh? How is your “Decator moment” accusation in any way relevant to this discussion and how can you accuse my post of being in any way related to said “Decator moment”? Do you even think about what you post here? This is a board about BO and his outrageous statements. You want me to comment on something else now…fine. Lesbians shouldn’t stab people who spit on them and throw lit cigarettes at them. Lesbians who do stab people are bad and should go to prison (which is what happened in this case). If you are satisfied with my statement about the culpability of lesbian-stabbings, how about sticking to the topic at hand and not derailing it with specious and irrelevant sidebars? Idiot.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Lesbians shouldn’t stab people who spit on them and throw lit cigarettes at them. Lesbians who do stab people are bad and should go to prison (which is what happened in this case).
Thus, when someone like Wheeler makes claims like he has, it can be pointed out that gays and lesbians have publicly disavowed and condemned this activity. Wheeler can continue to say and insinuate what he wants, but the presence of such contradictory information makes his statements that much less credible.
This is an astonishingly-simple way of disarming and refuting said statements; however, because it violates one of the cardinal tenets of the “LGBT community”, it’s rarely, if ever, used.
My point is that countering negative statements about wrongs in the gay community does not require attacking anyone else — if one is willing to disarm the issue by admitting the wrong exists and making clear that it is not acceptable.
posted by ColoradoPatriot on
ND30: “My point is that countering negative statements about wrongs in the gay community does not require attacking anyone else — if one is willing to disarm the issue by admitting the wrong exists and making clear that it is not acceptable.”
If you had been paying attention you would have recognized that the wrongs that BO reported on were imaginary. It is tough to condemn a behavior that never existed.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
Typcial Northadallass, the wrongdoing lesbians were convicted and punished and he still has to attack the LGBT community in general for it. The fact is that far more straight people commit violent crimes than lesbians and gays but you couldn’t care less about that, your only goal is to demonize gay people.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
If you had been paying attention you would have recognized that the wrongs that BO reported on were imaginary. It is tough to condemn a behavior that never existed.
One, your own previous citation makes it clear that at least one of the wrongs was hardly imaginary.
Two, even if a wrong is imaginary, it should be no problem at all to condemn it.
For instance, I have no trouble saying that it would be (and is) wrong, flat wrong, for lesbians to form gangs, make violent attacks, conscript ten year olds, and force them to perform sex acts.
What part of that do you find so unacceptable?
posted by ColoradoPatriot on
ND30: “What part of that do you find so unacceptable?”
Classic ND30 at work with misdirection and obfuscation. Stick to the topic at hand, dumbass. The discussion is about the LIES that BO spread on his program, not the real-life example he used to prop up his dishonesty. Not every thread can be about you ND30, no matter how much you want to make it so.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Again, ColoradoPatriot, I’m really having trouble understanding your point.
So far, I’ve done two things:
a) Condemn the behavior of the lesbians that attacked Buckle and make it clear that it is wholly and completely unacceptable
b) Condemn the behavior of the lesbians and gays that Wheeler says are forming gangs, making violent attacks, conscripting ten-year-olds, and forcing them to perform sex acts, and make it clear that it is wholly and completely unacceptable.
Wheeler’s type feed on making accusations and expecting you to react to the fact that they made them; when you attack them for lying, they simply come back that you either don’t know the situation or that you’re trying to cover up what’s happening.
In contrast, if you simply and flatly state that what they are accusing LGBTs of doing is wrong, flat wrong, their entire process unravels. If you really want to stick the knife in and twist, you immediately say, “You know, I’m glad you pointed this out. Obviously there’s a problem here; how can you and I work together to track down, identify, and eliminate the gangs that are doing these horrible things to people and to young kids?”
posted by ColoradoPatriot on
ND30: “In contrast, if you simply and flatly state that what they are accusing LGBTs of doing is wrong, flat wrong, their entire process unravels.”
Dude, this is getting exhausting. The entire point of this thread is the LIES, not the truth that was used to base the LIES on. You can’t condemn an imagined/manufactured wrong. The issue at hand is BO’s anti-gay vitriol and his enabling of lies about gay to be spread. The issue is not how gays can deflate anti-gay rhetoric, please stick to the topic at hand. Try not to be an obtuse asshole ALL the time.
posted by kittynboi on
So, where are all these lesbian gangs? Do they exist? Apparently not.
posted by Lori Heine on
Am I concerned about rampaging, raping, pillaging gangs of lesbians?
Uh…no.
Because I’m convinced there are none? Certainly not. Whether there are or are not, to me, is not the issue.
An overwhelmingly greater majority of heterosexual men commit violent crimes of every sort — including rape. The difference is that when they do, the perpetrators alone are condemned for it — not everyone else.
Tell ya what. I’m prepared to take responsibility for every violent and antisocial dyke in the world the day every innocent and law-abiding straight man feels the need to take responsibility for every straight male criminal.
Wheeler is trying to demonize all lesbians everywhere on the basis of what a tiny number have done.
Should I disavow what that tiny number did? I suppose anybody with a lick of common sense can probably figure out that — like most lesbians who do not do such things — I disapprove of their behavior. But as for vehemently disavowing it, no. I didn’t do it, so I have no more reason to disavow something I had nothing to do with in the first place than a straight man does because some other straight men commit crimes.
It’s time to stop kissing these people’s asses. I say start now.
How responsible is it to declare open hunting season on all lesbians everywhere because of what seven women did? And why are none of the staunch defenders of Right-Wing demagogues the tiniest bit indignant about that?
This is MANIPULATION, folks. We are being played, plain and simple. Do you think the Right Wingers give a rat’s ass how much we grovel to them? If we simply apologize abjectly enough for our own existence, do we think they’ll like us and share their toys?
That’s a sad little pipe dream if I’ve ever heard one.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
The issue at hand is BO’s anti-gay vitriol and his enabling of lies about gay to be spread. The issue is not how gays can deflate anti-gay rhetoric, please stick to the topic at hand.
Oh, I see; you don’t want to fix the problem, you just want to whine and moan about Bill O’Reilly. Gotcha.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Do you think the Right Wingers give a rat’s ass how much we grovel to them? If we simply apologize abjectly enough for our own existence, do we think they’ll like us and share their toys?
Hardly.
But in this case, the point is not to impress the “right wingers”; it is to impress those who are not.
And what do you think does that more effectively: a flat condemnation of the behavior that people like Wheeler accuse gays and lesbians of doing, or sitting there shrieking that Wheeler is lying?
The latter puts you on the same side as the people watching who don’t want gay and lesbian people forming gangs, making violent attacks, conscripting ten-year-olds, and forcing them to perform sex acts. That is the last thing that Wheeler wants to have happen; he
d rather you get defensive and start attacking him personally, which is a recipe for driving sympathy towards him.
What we want people to realize is that gays and lesbians are not different — that we too are horrified by violence, in opposition to gangs, totally rebuke child molestation, you get the idea. But people are starting with the idea that we are different than them — so unless we show and tell them that we are the same, that’s not the first thing they’re going to think.
Strategy, Lori. You’re not going to win a full-bore screaming match with Wheeler. You CAN win a battle in which you recognize that his strategy is to make you look different and threatening — by showing that you would answer the same way that most people would.
posted by Lori Heine on
We can defeat anti-gay rhetoric by…what? Flagellating ourselves because of what someone else did?
And those sterling, rock-ribbed, godly moralists, the conservatives, would accept that…why? Because, as conservatives, they believe in individual responsibility?
Yeah, right.
That’s quite a pantload.
Far more productive, I believe would be to point out the game that’s being played and call it what it is.
It’s called “Double standard.” Another good name for it would be “group identity only means what we say it means.” Because, of course, group identity politics are only condemned when liberals use them. So-called conservatives can use them any time they think they’ll get away with it, and it’s supposed to be okay.
Call me back when thousands of lesbians have taken to the streets in gangs. (Oh, that’s right, that’s what the lying son of a bitch on Fox tried to claim was happening.)
As that’s been shown to be utter dreck, based upon a very overblown story, we’re supposed to frantically disavow what happened why again?
In any society that truly respected individual responsibility, this would be clearly seen as the total nonsense it really is.
posted by Lori Heine on
“And what do you think does that more effectively: a flat condemnation of the behavior that people like Wheeler accuse gays and lesbians of doing, or sitting there shrieking that Wheeler is lying?”
In the first place, I’m not “shrieking” that Wheeler is lying. I have acknowledged the possibiity that a tiny part of what he says might be true. If you prefer to see gross exaggeration as something other than lying, then so be it.
As for a flat condemnation of the behavior, I can scarcely imagine the sort of idiot who would think I needed to. Anyone who knows me and thinks I would even approve of such a thing, far less actually take part in it, is too stupid to be reasoned with.
There’s no substitute for a little self-respect.
If I demanded that a straight man disavow behavior in which he individually had taken no part, he would (very rightly) tell me to shove it. Why? Because he feels no need to apologize to the rest of the human race for his existence.
Well, neither do I.
If you still must wonder whether I would approve of the sort of crap these gangs supposedly did, then I guess I’ll leave you to think about it. I find the very suggestion pretty damned insulting.
The problem with jumping through those hoops is that it just never, ever ends. They will never be satisfied, and at some point — when it comes to those on the fence — they are simply going to have to be told to start using their heads.
When someone asks a stupid question, sometimes the right answer IS to tell them “that’s a stupid question.”
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Flagellating ourselves because of what someone else did?
Like I said, Lori, I’ve done two things:
a) Condemn the behavior of the lesbians that attacked Buckle and make it clear that it is wholly and completely unacceptable
b) Condemn the behavior of the lesbians and gays that Wheeler says are forming gangs, making violent attacks, conscripting ten-year-olds, and forcing them to perform sex acts, and make it clear that it is wholly and completely unacceptable.
Violently assaulting someone is wrong. Forming violent gangs is wrong. Conscripting ten-year-old kids and forcing them to perform sex acts is wrong.
Now what, exactly, is “self-flagellating” in that?
Because, of course, group identity politics are only condemned when liberals use them. So-called conservatives can use them any time they think they’ll get away with it, and it’s supposed to be okay.
That is because, Lori, you are implying that a condemnation of the bad behavior of other LGBTs is the same as a condemnation of your own behavior (“self-flagellation”).
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
As for a flat condemnation of the behavior, I can scarcely imagine the sort of idiot who would think I needed to. Anyone who knows me and thinks I would even approve of such a thing, far less actually take part in it, is too stupid to be reasoned with.
The key word there, Lori, is “anyone who knows me”.
Realize that that, in the United States, is probably on the order of 0.1% of the national population.
The vast, overwhelming majority of people don’t know you from Adam and don’t have the faintest idea of what you do or don’t approve. All they know is that you are a lesbian, and that that makes you different from them.
The people you “know” didn’t start out “knowing” everything about you. You showed them and you told them. What’s wrong with doing it with everyone else?
posted by Lori Heine on
In the first place, NDT, I’m not sure what the lesbians in question actually did. What’s fact and what’s fiction?
If a man was innocent of any wrongdoing, and attacked by a gang of lesbians (a very big “if”), then of course I disavow that.
If, however, I were violently attacked and had to defend myself, the Rod Wheelers of this world would distort the picture to make it look like I had been the attacker. How do I know that isn’t what happened here?
As for other gangs that are supposedly forming and doing all this terrible stuff, just where are they?
I find it beyond odd that nobody else but a nutcase like Wheeler is even claiming such a thing is going on.
And as for the notion that all this stuff is poppin’ out there and being suppressed by (what else) liberal political correctness, puh-leeze. We all know liberal political correctness exists, but to ascribe to it every evil in the universe besides smallpox and sunspots is to make it a great deal more powerful than it really is.
Here’s what I believe is happening. Whenever a gay man or a lesbian defends him- or herself against attack, those who think we have no right to exist will try to paint it as if we were the attackers. That this is a part of Wheeler’s agenda can be pretty plainly seen by his attempt to smear Pink Pistols. He knows damned good and well what sort of an organization Pink Pistols really is.
I do not believe his conflation of Pink Pistols and marauding lesbian gangs gone wild is at all accidental. Not for a minute.
posted by Brian Miller on
I do not believe his conflation of Pink Pistols and marauding lesbian gangs gone wild is at all accidental.
Of course it wasn’t.
It’s brain food for duocellular cerebellums (i.e. FOX News watchers). 😉
posted by Jorge on
If I demanded that a straight man disavow behavior in which he individually had taken no part, he would (very rightly) tell me to shove it. Why? Because he feels no need to apologize to the rest of the human race for his existence.
Well, neither do I.
Well I think you should, Lori.
If you’ve seen West Side Story, you know there’s a certain tendency or pressure to “stick to your own kind.” Sometimes people do that even in the face of injustice. That’s wrong.
Gays have more influence on gays than straights have. The same is true of straights. If people are going to stick to their own kind, I think they have some responsibility to police their own kind. It certainly makes things smoother than when people in one group try to police people in another group.
Here’s the point. I think what I’m seeing is gays being afraid of policing our own kind, and attacking those like Bill O’Reilly who try to police those not of their own kind. If this trend holds up, then the only people who are going to speak truth to power are the nutty radicals.
This is a very bad thing. It will mean 1) very few people overall are policing bad behavior, so it prospers. And 2) it will make people trust the radicals because they are the only ones saying something credible. You never want either of those things.
posted by Bobby on
The problem with some gays is that they’re so afraid of being judged that they can’t even pass judgement on themselves. They go around throwing terms like “judgemental” and “insensitive” and “hate free zone.” All this to promote some impossible utopia where everyone accepts each other with all their flaws. If Bill O’reilly was saying that all gays are child molesters, I would be upset because that would be a lie. But to get upset because he discussed that now there are gay gangs out there, that doesn’t upset me. Liberals need to stop living in a dreamworld where the only bad people are white christian males.
“And why didnt Oreilly offer a dissenting view the day of Wheeler’s appearance instead of after the fact”
—There are many reasons why it was done that way. Maybe both guests coudln’t be booked the same day, maybe he also had to cover Iraq and other stories, maybe it’s more interesting for fans who watch everyday to see a developing story in two days instead of one. It’s ludicrous to accuse Bill when he actually offered both points of view. There are plenty of networks that only offer their point of view. Like with this whole global warming hysteria and the stupid concerts. NBC has never bothered to cover people who don’t believe in global warming or who at least don’t want to pay carbon taxes, higher gas taxes and more of that nonsense.
posted by Lori Heine on
“very few people overall are policing bad behavior, so it prospers.”
I just happened to read an article online today about the drawbacks of commentary on blogs, and it spoke of the very problem I see here. You people simply don’t know me anywhere near well enough to be making the assumptions upon which you’re basing your remarks.
As a writer for the gay Christian community, as a matter of fact, Jorge, I am CONSTANTLY policing other people’s behavior. The claim that I am not is so absurd that I have to stop laughing before I can even respond to it.
However, in order to police bad behavior, I have to know it really happened, and that it isn’t simply an urban legend or a lurid fairy tale. (I’m kinda funny that way.) As I’m not certain the whole monster-lesbo story is even real, I think at the very least I’ll wait ’til I’m sure of it to go lecturing anybody about it.
I happened to mention the rumor to some friends this evening (mixed company, gay and straight), and they all thought it was quite amusing. None of them had heard of it before. It gave them quite a lot of enjoyment.
And as for Bobby…
“Liberals need to stop living in a dreamworld where the only bad people are white christian males.”
Again, please, puh-leeze do some homework and bother to find out a little about people before trying to tag them with cartoon-character labels. I am not a “liberal,” I do not live in a “dreamworld” (at least not any more than you do) and I am under no delusion that only bad people are white Christian males.
My illustration about the difference between what is expected of lesbians and what is expected of white Christian (actually, I said straight) males was not intended to be a commentary on the virtues of one or the vices of another. It was a contrast of how straight men perceive themselves (as not having to apologize for their existence by taking to task every one in their little group who screws up) as opposed to lesbians (who are constantly thrown on the defensive and held responsible for what every other lesbian in the world does).
Turning real people into cartoon characters is never a very good idea.
posted by Bobby on
Lori, I wasn’t attacking you, just judging liberals in general.
“My illustration about the difference between what is expected of lesbians and what is expected of white Christian”
—-Christians will apologize when they’re caught doing something wrong. If you go to a christian college and you’re caught smoking or drinking, you have to apologize to the entire school and really mean it.
“It was a contrast of how straight men perceive themselves (as not having to apologize for their existence by taking to task every one in their little group who screws up)”
—Because straight men AND WOMAN are the majority. Among jews we often feel shame if one of us gets caught doing something wrong, and we fear how the gentiles are gonna see us, whether they’ll blame all of us or not. Among muslims, there are moderates who are condemming the extremists, which is a courageous thing to do since those extremists have no problem killing their own. We can judge other people and other groups, but we must judge ourselves the hardest before anyone else.
“as opposed to lesbians (who are constantly thrown on the defensive and held responsible for what every other lesbian in the world does).”
—I don’t see that. Even people who oppose gay rights understand that not all gays are “extremists” (their words, not mine). And while I don’t feel responsible for what other gays do, I do sometimes feel ashamed of what other gays do because people do judge me on the basis of other people. There was a liberal in my office who was always telling me, “you can’t be a republican, you’re gay, you can’t be a conservative, you’re gay, you can’t like Bush, you’re gay.” That’s why when one of us does something wrong, we must condemn him or her loudly. That’s what Tammy Bruce does and I love her for that.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
However, in order to police bad behavior, I have to know it really happened, and that it isn’t simply an urban legend or a lurid fairy tale. (I’m kinda funny that way.) As I’m not certain the whole monster-lesbo story is even real, I think at the very least I’ll wait ’til I’m sure of it to go lecturing anybody about it.
That’s where we disagree.
Violently assaulting someone is wrong. Forming violent gangs is wrong. Conscripting ten-year-old kids and forcing them to perform sex acts is wrong.
That is something that can be said regardless of whether or not there are violent gangs of lesbians out there. It’s simple common sense, and nothing less than you would expect of anyone.
And if more people in the gay community would make it clear that we believe and practice that, people like Wheeler would have much less of an effect.
posted by Lori Heine on
Well, Bobby, you insist upon your simplistic labels, so we’ll have to let you keep them. You don’t seem to be willing to think without them.
And Bobby and NDT, once again you are both skirting the issue of WHETHER THIS WHOLE STORY IS ACTUALLY TRUE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
It is not “moral” to disavow something that was a lie to begin with. Morality dictates that lies be flushed out and shown for what they are.
You might want to ask yourselves why straight conservatives in general seem to have no use for you unless you’re attacking other gays. If it is indeed a conservative virtue for one to help police one’s own group, then WHY THE HELL are the people who are always preaching this to others not doing so themselves?
As a gay libertarian, I’m rather on the fence about the whole thing. I often agree with gay conservatives, but they do seem to spend an awful lot of time attacking their own. That makes no sense to me.
In the first place, it is ineffective. Gays are sick and tired of being shoved around, so they probably aren’t going to listen to you. I doubt if I make a dramatic disavowal of the many thousands of lesbian gangs you claim are pillaging their way across America with spray-painted pink guns (?????!!!!!), these women are going to simply sit down and listen to me.
Let me tell you what the straights will do. Those with any damned sense will do what the straight people I’ve already spoken with about it have done, and laugh ’til their sides are sore. Those without sense may expect a “disavowal,” but once they’ve got one, they won’t accept it.
They want to believe what they want to believe what they want to believe. And so it goes, no matter what we do.
I worry, in short, about what SENSIBLE PEOPLE think. Not about what lunatics and idiots think. Maybe that’s the difference between a libertarian and a conservative.
posted by Bobby on
“the issue of WHETHER THIS WHOLE STORY IS ACTUALLY TRUE IN THE FIRST PLACE.”
—Sure it’s true, why woudn’t it be?
“You might want to ask yourselves why straight conservatives in general seem to have no use for you unless you’re attacking other gays.”
—That’s not true. Sometimes I do defend gays, sometimes they defend gays. And I also discuss with them a whole lot of other issues as well.
“then WHY THE HELL are the people who are always preaching this to others not doing so themselves?”
—They do all the time. If a Christian does something wrong, he or she can be shunned by the whole community. Remember the Mathew Sheppard killers? They were excomunicated from the Mormon Church, the same church that advocates electro-shock therapy for gays. From a mormon being excomunicated is really hard.
“I often agree with gay conservatives, but they do seem to spend an awful lot of time attacking their own. That makes no sense to me.”
—Because we have standards and the gay left is always attacking us, calling us self-hating and other things.
“I worry, in short, about what SENSIBLE PEOPLE think.”
—Lori, I think every movement is lead by extremists, be them on the right or the left. Sensible people are rarely heard or cared about. Why? Because a sensible person rarely has the passion to get anything done. I’ve yet to meet a politician that was sensible. Bloomberg is a perfect example, he’s always been a fanatical leftist, the fact that he left the GOP proves it. The media may paint him as a moderate, but a real moderate would not be trying to ban guns, ban smoking, make people driving into Manhattan pay $8, and run his city as if it was his own private hacienda.
“Not about what lunatics and idiots think. Maybe that’s the difference between a libertarian and a conservative.”
—Sorry, but libertarians can be nutty to. What about all those anti-war, anti-death penalty libertarians? I consider Bill Maher to be a lunatic and quite the idiot if you ask me.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
It is not “moral” to disavow something that was a lie to begin with. Morality dictates that lies be flushed out and shown for what they are.
Never said it didn’t.
I merely prefer, as I mentioned above, to be more oblique and subtle in how one does it.
Wheeler’s type feed on making accusations and expecting you to react to the fact that they made them; when you attack them for lying, they simply come back that you either don’t know the situation or that you’re trying to cover up what’s happening.
In contrast, if you simply and flatly state that what they are accusing LGBTs of doing is wrong, flat wrong, their entire process unravels. If you really want to stick the knife in and twist, you immediately say, “You know, I’m glad you pointed this out. Obviously there’s a problem here; how can you and I work together to track down, identify, and eliminate the gangs that are doing these horrible things to people and to young kids?”
To use an analogy, you and I are on a show where Wheeler is making the improbable claim that there is a recruitment center for ten-year-old kids to be inducted into gangs in Washington, DC.
You call him a liar; I ask him for more details and directions to it and, with cameras in tow, follow said directions.
While you and Wheeler are having a screaming match — you calling him a liar and him insisting that you’re covering things up, you don’t know how it is on the street — I call back into the studio: “Uh…the directions and address you gave me are to this liquor store (camera pans)….and I can’t find any lesbians, ten-year-olds, or anything else that you insist is here.”
Which one of us more effectively debunked the lie?
You might want to ask yourselves why straight conservatives in general seem to have no use for you unless you’re attacking other gays. If it is indeed a conservative virtue for one to help police one’s own group, then WHY THE HELL are the people who are always preaching this to others not doing so themselves?
You assume that I determine my right and wrong based on such things.
If a lesbian knifes another person and a straight person calls them out on it, I’m going to agree with the straight person.
That is because it is wrong to knife another person. And the less I focus on that fact and the more on things like the sexual orientation of who did it versus who pointed it out and going through their respective pasts to determine whether or not they call straight people out in the “equal” fashion that they do gay people, the more it looks like I’m making excuses for what the gay person did.
Let me tell you what the straights will do. Those with any damned sense will do what the straight people I’ve already spoken with about it have done, and laugh ’til their sides are sore. Those without sense may expect a “disavowal,” but once they’ve got one, they won’t accept it.
Then there is zero harm whatsoever in making a disavowal. Moreover, for people with sense who you DON’T know and haven’t talked to, it makes it clear what you believe. What, exactly, makes you so afraid of doing so?
posted by ColoradoPatriot on
“Bobby | July 12, 2007, 12:53pm
“the issue of WHETHER THIS WHOLE STORY IS ACTUALLY TRUE IN THE FIRST PLACE.”
—Sure it’s true, why woudn’t it be?”
Wow, that is simply stunning…Why wouldn’t it be?!! It wasn’t true dumbass, hence BO’s semi-retraction/non-apology. The cognitive dissonance here is so massive it is making my head hurt.
posted by Xeno on
ColoradoPatriot, I wouldn’t be surprised if Bobby and NDT believed that “gerbilization” actually occurred.
posted by Lori Heine on
“Then there is zero harm whatsoever in making a disavowal. Moreover, for people with sense who you DON’T know and haven’t talked to, it makes it clear what you believe. What, exactly, makes you so afraid of doing so?”
NDT, I like you so I’m really trying to be patient with you about this.
I am a forty-four-year-old, middle-aged woman, of German-Norwegian descent. I am not — nor have a ever been — a part of the gangsta-rap culture of the inner city. At the risk of incurring charges that I’m racist (which I’m sure somebody will probably bring right up), the notion that I might somehow be involved with inner-city gangs of ANY sort is beyond absurd.
I won’t disavow that the moon is made of green cheese, either. I suppose that makes me “pro-lunar green cheese,” but so be it.
Even if there is any validity to this whole, Fox-inspired snipe hunt about lesbian gangs, only a very small number of people — all certainly less than half my age, and part of the gang culture — are taking part in it.
Only an idiot would believe I have anything in common with teenaged gang-bangers. And I refuse to lower myself by taking idiots seriously.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
Lori said “An overwhelmingly greater majority of heterosexual men commit violent crimes of every sort — including rape. The difference is that when they do, the perpetrators alone are condemned for it — not everyone else.”.
That’s exactly the point Lori. People like Northdallass are constantly trying to blame all gays for the isolated acts of a few. Wheeler is grossly exagerating the prevalence of lesbian gangs and Northdallass not only refuses to call him on it but supports him in the distortion by bringing up isolated incidents to imply that it is true.
Northdallass said “the point is not to impress the “right wingers”; it is to impress those who are not.
And what do you think does that more effectively: a flat condemnation of the behavior that people like Wheeler accuse gays and lesbians of doing, or sitting there shrieking that Wheeler is lying?”
That’s the problem Northdallass, is that you don’t challenge the wild distortion, you just accept its premise by condemning the accusations as though they are true. You, not surprisingly, play into the demonization of all LGBTs. You fail to acknowledge the reality that the vast majority of gangs are heterosexual and don’t provide any criticism of them at all – because you’re determined to make people hate all LGBTs.
Bobby said “Christians will apologize when they’re caught doing something wrong. If you go to a christian college and you’re caught smoking or drinking, you have to apologize to the entire school and really mean it.”
That’s bullshit Bobby. You see northdallass bring up the isolated wrongdoings of gays over and over, but you never see him volunteer an example of Christian wrongdoing like this:
A priest molests a boy
http://www.news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070331/NEWSREC0101/703310306/-1/GTCOM0200
or this:
A pastor throws a man out of a shelter because he’s gay
http://www.365gay.com/Newscon07/06/061407colorado.htm
His disingenous claims to be “helping” the gay community look good by criticizing wrongdoers doesn’t apply to Christians or heterosexuals – because he knows he’s simply demonizing gays and he doesn’t want to do that to his heterosexual and Christian kin.
Northdallass said “To use an analogy, you and I are on a show where Wheeler is making the improbable claim that there is a recruitment center for ten-year-old kids to be inducted into gangs in Washington, DC.
You call him a liar; I ask him for more details and directions to it and, with cameras in tow, follow said directions.
While you and Wheeler are having a screaming match — you calling him a liar and him insisting that you’re covering things up, you don’t know how it is on the street — I call back into the studio: “Uh…the directions and address you gave me are to this liquor store (camera pans)….and I can’t find any lesbians, ten-year-olds, or anything else that you insist is here.”
Which one of us more effectively debunked the lie?”
The trouble is Northdallass, you aren’t doing that. When Wheeler says lesbian gangs are out of control and recruiting and molesting 10 year olds you don’t attempt to show that as a lie, you accept it at face value and say, “here’s an example of that, must be true”.
Northdallass said “there is zero harm whatsoever in making a disavowal”
When someone says lesbian gangs are out of control and attacking people left right and centre you most certainly are doing harm by disavowing that as though it were really happening. But of course that’s what you want to do isn’t it. When someone says lesbians are raping girls, you want to get up there and say “isn’t that horrible and they shouldn’t do that” AND CREATE THE FALSE IMPRESSION THAT ITS HAPPENING EXACTLY LIKE THE LIAR SAYS IT IS.
posted by kittynboi on
“”But to get upset because he discussed that now there are gay gangs out there, that doesn’t upset me. “”
Who are these gangs? What are they called? Has anyone admitted to being in them? What cities are they active in? ow many members do they have?
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
ColoradoPatriot, I wouldn’t be surprised if Bobby and NDT believed that “gerbilization” actually occurred.
LOL….Xeno, if you’re going to accuse me of something, at least have the decency to make it worthwhile.
Like this.
Also, there is no piece of anti-gay policy that ND30 will not support, up to, and including, his own execution for being a “sexual deviant”.
Or this.
You’re one sick puppy Northdallass, I wouldn’t be surprised if you had an eight year old chained in the basement so you can molest him every day.
Not that I don’t get amusement, though, out of watching you and your fellow “LGBT community” members scream about others making unfounded accusations while casually making ones themselves; after all, these are the same people who complain about rates of suicide among gays while encouraging gays to commit suicide themselves.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
That’s the problem Northdallass, is that you don’t challenge the wild distortion, you just accept its premise by condemning the accusations as though they are true.
That is because my interest is in making sure that people know I consider all of those things to be wrong before anything else happens.
What you’re mad at me about is my refusal to automatically assume “LGBT people” are always right and that anyone who criticizes the actions of gay people is always wrong.
Now to Lori:
Even if there is any validity to this whole, Fox-inspired snipe hunt about lesbian gangs, only a very small number of people — all certainly less than half my age, and part of the gang culture — are taking part in it.
So even if it is valid, your first reaction is not to condemn it….but to minimize and spin why it doesn’t mean anything.
I’m not buying the theory that people here are against “unfounded accusations” and “lies”, Lori; I know full well that gay leftists like Xeno, Audrey B, Randi, ColoradoPatriot, and others will accuse people like me of being child molestors, of not really being gay, and other whatnot without blinking an eye, despite not having any proof of said accusations. When you have gay leftists like Randi accusing every single Christian in existence of supporting polygamy and insisting that any Christian who denies that is just lying, their aneurysms over what Wheeler is saying look patently hypocritical.
The problem here is that you are putting a higher value on not making other gays look bad than you are on right and wrong. And that is what makes Wheeler’s charges plausible; your own behavior makes it obvious that you put the sexual orientation of a person ahead of their actions.
It is not difficult to believe that there are lesbian gangs out there when gay people refuse to condemn such activity. Conversely, when gay people like myself make it clear that they not only condemn such activity, but are willing to work to get rid of it, they put their money where their mouth is — and force Wheeler to admit he doesn’t really have any such evidence.
posted by ColoradoPatriot on
ND30: “…these are the same people who complain about rates of suicide among gays while encouraging gays to commit suicide themselves.”
Ahem…
“ColoradoPatriot | February 2, 2007, 5:20pm | #
I’m a bad bad man and nothing is going to stop me from saying deplorible things…see ND30, you and I have these two things in common. And, by the way, I’m just taking a piss about shooting yourself. Please PLEASE don’t off yourself, I get too much enjoyment out of watching you make a complete ass of yourself here to ever want that to stop.”
Thank You
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
And before that……
Once:
Try a .357 to your ear canal to clear that out, you’d be doing us all a favor.
Twice:
It wouldn’t just make me happy, it would make me fucking ecstatic…but seriously, die painfully you worthless twit.
Thrice.
Anthony Castro didn’t kill himself you ignorant prick…but maybe you should.
posted by ColoradoPatriot on
Ahem…
“ColoradoPatriot | February 2, 2007, 5:20pm | #
I’m a bad bad man and nothing is going to stop me from saying deplorible things…see ND30, you and I have these two things in common. And, by the way, I’m just taking a piss about shooting yourself. Please PLEASE don’t off yourself, I get too much enjoyment out of watching you make a complete ass of yourself here to ever want that to stop.”
Thank You
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Ah yes, the “I was only joking” defense.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
Northdallass said “That is because my interest is in making sure that people know I consider all of those things to be wrong before anything else happens.”.
Bullshit. Your interest is in making gays look as bad as possible that’s why you don’t acknowledge that the story is a gross exageration and your bring up an isolated incident in an attempt to give the lie credibility.
Northdallass said “It is not difficult to believe that there are lesbian gangs out there when gay people refuse to condemn such activity.”
That’s insane, by condemning that which didn’t take place as though it did you feed into the lie which is obviously your intention.
Northdallass said “Conversely, when gay people like myself make it clear that they not only condemn such activity, but are willing to work to get rid of it, they put their money where their mouth is — and force Wheeler to admit he doesn’t really have any such evidence.”.
When you condemn that which hasn’t happened you feed the lie that it has. You’ve done nothing to force Wheeler to admit he has no such evidence, you’ve conceded his lies and tried to give them credibility by pointing to an isolated rare instance of a lesbian gang. No one’s stupid enough to think your attacks on LGBTS are some twisted attempt to benefit us.
Northdallass, at least when CP suggested you kill yourself he didn’t lie about you. You’ve lied about me and others on this forum repeatedly, you lied and said I assault religious people and heteroseuals in all possible manners, you lied and said I have multiple sex partners, you lied and said I demand to have public sex whenever and wherever.
The fact that you defended child molestation is the reason why people wonder if you have an eight year old chained up in the basement – you have no one other than yourself to blame.
posted by ColoradoPatriot on
And since we’re dredging up deplorable things posted to this board how about when ND30 stated that blacks should be grateful for slavery because it got them out of Africa…or when ND30 claimed that Buddhists were tree-worshiping cultists…or when ND30 said that we shouldn’t mourn Anthony Castro’s death because he killed himself (he didn’t kill himself, it was a car wreck)…or when ND30 said that gays deserved to die from HIV/AIDS because of their filthy sex lives…or when ND30 said that the majority of homosexuals hate God…or when, to be continued I’m sure…lol.
posted by Bobby on
Lori, the media has covered the priest scandals so much that now when I look at a priest, I wonder if he’s a pedophile. So I don’t need to join the debate here. At conservatives websites I’ve attacked the Catholic Church many times because they’re anti-war, anti-capitalism, and obviously anti-children.
I also watch Christian TV and have seen many christians criticizing other christians. I don’t have to criticize them because I’m not a Christian so whatever they do doesn’t affect me and I can ignore it as long as it’s not criminal.
Secondly, most people don’t even know about Pink Pistols, so if Bill didn’t correct Wheeler it was because he didn’t know. It was Wheeler who surprised Bill, not the other way around. When he found out the truth, he corrected his guest and apologized for any misunderstanding. Of course, the enemies of Bill are not interested in the truth. I’ve seen them distorting his views and what he says all the time. George Soros funds al ot of leftwing websites that engage in character assasination on a daily basis.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
The fact that you defended child molestation is the reason why people wonder if you have an eight year old chained up in the basement – you have no one other than yourself to blame.
And I’m quite certain you can cite exactly where I defended child molestation.
Meanwhile, I say emphatically that I oppose it — a fact which I have made patently clear here and elsewhere, ironically in a post that was debunking the argument that gays are all child molestors.
Ironically, the reaction to that post led me to write something quite salient to this debate.
The gist of that paragraph is that, while it is an unquestionably-true fact that some molested children turn out gay and some of these gay people who were themselves molested go on to molest other children, that is not sufficient evidence to say that child molestation causes homosexuality. If that were the case, as I pointed out, molested children would uniformly be homosexual, and all homosexuals would have been molested as children — which is completely false. An absolutist construct, such as Kupelian makes, is invalidated by exceptions — and there are exceptions. Thus, what I did was to validate one of the facts used in the argument, but refute the argument itself in the process.
What is frankly terrifying is that the commentor is so dead-set against the argument, he considers acknowledging one of the facts used in the argument to be true — a verified, obvious FACT — to be the same as validating the argument itself. THIS is what I mean when I say that the gay community is a prisoner of its own propaganda — we are so desperate to maintain our facade and avoid ANY negative point or connotation that we completely deny reality. It would be utter lunacy to say that gays have never molested children or that no molested child grew up to be gay — but admitting the obvious corrolary, which is that SOME gays have molested children and SOME molested children have grown up to be gay is “utter trash”.
In short, the wingnuts have figured out that the gay community’s biggest weakness is our utter inability to go off-script at any level. All they’ve had to do is find examples that clearly contradict portions of the script, and they can portray us as lying and covering up, because we refuse to yield or acknowledge anything that could be portrayed as antigay.
I, for one, refuse to be held hostage by this idiocy. Yes, there are gays who were molested as children. Yes, there are gays who molest children. Gays like my commentor who refuse to acknowledge this reality consider the manufactured “image” of the gay community to be more important than the facts. Wingnuts who try to extrapolate this into “proof” that all gays are child molestors are fools and liars who are hijacking the real problem of and battle against child abuse to suit their personal prejudices and are allowing MORE children to be abused by failing to confront the true issues involved.
In short, Randi, you’re more concerned with gay PR than you are right and wrong, as we see in this statement:
Northdallass, at least when CP suggested you kill yourself he didn’t lie about you.
Of course, he stated that I should kill myself in no uncertain terms three times.
But, according to you, that’s OK, because “at least he didn’t lie about you”.
Expressed moral relativism like yours when it comes to “LGBT people” is what makes Wheeler’s argument perfectly plausible; after all, if an “LGBT person” like yourself can equivocate that I deserved to be told to commit suicide, what’s to stop them from equivocating that someone that a lesbian gang knifed “deserved it”?
In contrast, I make it clear that there is no “moral relativism” on those things. It is WRONG to tell people to commit suicide. Violently assaulting someone is wrong. Forming violent gangs is wrong. Conscripting ten-year-old kids and forcing them to perform sex acts is wrong.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
And since we’re dredging up deplorable things posted to this board how about when ND30 stated that blacks should be grateful for slavery because it got them out of Africa…or when ND30 claimed that Buddhists were tree-worshiping cultists…or when ND30 said that we shouldn’t mourn Anthony Castro’s death because he killed himself (he didn’t kill himself, it was a car wreck)…or when ND30 said that gays deserved to die from HIV/AIDS because of their filthy sex lives…or when ND30 said that the majority of homosexuals hate God…or when, to be continued I’m sure…lol.
Go right ahead and cite your references to those statements. If they are so awful, you shouldn’t have any trouble bringing them forward — and, since you remember them, you should have no trouble finding them and referencing them either.
After all, you are insisting that Wheeler provide positive, referenceable proof of his lesbian gangs; I hardly think it plausible that you would not hold yourself to the same standard.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Incidentally, even though ColoradoPatriot doesn’t know it, he’s providing an excellent example of why Wheeler uses the tactics he does — and how they can be defused.
ColoradoPatriot made a series of accusations against me….but provided references for none of them. Just like Wheeler.
What ColoradoPatriot (and Randi) are banking on is audience solidarity; that is, they believe that they don’t have to provide evidence, because people will automatically believe them and not me.
What I have done is to turn it back on them by asking them to provide proof of their statements and by condemning the behavior (child molestation) in question.
Had I simply started screaming, “you’re lying”, that would have kept the argument on the “he said-they said” level; the alleged lying would become the issue, not the facts of the matter.
But, by consciously shifting the emphasis to the facts, I have made it difficult for them to continue WITHOUT providing the facts.
The key is never to take an absolute position that something could never happen; it’s to ask the party making accusations to provide evidence of their claims.
And, if they can’t….or if they make excuses for why they can’t….
posted by Lori Heine on
“So even if it is valid, your first reaction is not to condemn it….but to minimize and spin why it doesn’t mean anything.”
No, NDT, my “first reaction” is to treat it the way a heterosexual would (quite understandably) treat the fact that urban gangs — which are, undeniably, overwhelmingly not only heterosexual but homophobic — have been terrorizing America for some time now.
I think it’s terrible. But I feel no need to personally “disavow” it (by this I assume you mean cry “I don’t do it! Not me!”) because anybody who isn’t an idiot already knows I would have nothing to do with it.
I have never said there couldn’t possibly be gay or lesbian gang members anywhere. The gang culture has been coddled in this country for so long that it is, indeed, a whole subculture. As there are gays just about everywhere else, I’m sure there are gays in gang culture. Though since the big gangs are so homophobic, they probably do start their own.
No one not steeped in that culture would have the slightest interest in getting involved in that sort of crap.
Should we demand that all decent straight people disavow a problem that is overwhelmingly straight?
I think most people with any common sense simply assume that they do.
When I stop listening to Handel and Bach and take up gansta rap instead, and when I buy that pink spray-paint for my pistol, then you should all be very afraid.
I do not believe in separate standards of conduct for gays and straights. Simply reject the concept, period. My stand on this issue is a part of that overall principle. If you must malign it as spin, then you gotta do what you gotta do.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
Northdallass said “And I’m quite certain you can cite exactly where I defended child molestation.”.
Absolutely, I opposed underage marriages (child molestation) in this thread:
http://www.indegayforum.org/blog/show/31277.html?success=1#comments
And at June 19, 2007, 4:02pm you condemned me for it screaming ” all of your statements are discriminatory. It should not be automatically assumed that children are incapable of consent; that’s age discrimination. It should not be automatically assumed that being related to someone prevents you from giving informed consent; that’s discrimination on the basis of lineage or family. It should not be automatically assumed that all multiple marriages are exploitive; that’s discrimination based on assumptions about private lifestyle decisions…your attitude that people should not be allowed to marry their preferred sexual partner or partners is unconstitutional”.
So don’t give me this bunk about you opposing it, you talk out of both sides of your mouth, you’ll change what you say 180 degrees if you think doing so helps you attack gays better.
CP went too far by suggesting you kill yourself but that is mitigated by the fact that you taunted him and suggested that blacks should be grateful for slavery. Unlike you CP never lied about you as you so casually do about others. I can vouch for CP that you did indeed say blacks should be grateful for slavery because it got them out of Africa, you did say that we shouldn’t mourn Anthony Castro’s death because he killed himself, you did say that the majority of gays hate God, and I don’t doubt you said the other things because unlike the habitual liar you are I’ve not known CP to lie
Northdallass said “ColoradoPatriot made a series of accusations against me….but provided references for none of them.”
And you provided no references for your accusations that I assault religious people and heterosexuals in all possible manners, that I have multiple sex parterns, that I demand to have public sex wherever and whenever – BECAUSE YOU LIED. Now I can go and dig up references to most of those statements CP said you made and I’ll do so once you promise you’ll admit that after I do so you lied about not making those statements and promise you’ll admit you lied about me when you made those statements you (for obvious reasons) haven’t referenced.
posted by Lori Heine on
It ought to be perfectly obvious what is going on with Fox and its homo-hysterical guests. But since to some who read this site it isn’t, I will spell it out for you.
As Shakespeare would say, “mark it well.”
The enemies of gay rights are losing their little war. The real facts are against them, the majority of reasonable people are turning against them, and they really have nothing left but scary-fairy stories and hysteria.
So now we’re supposed to “disavow” a nutcase like Rod Wheeler when he claims there are roving bands of homicidal lesbos taking over our major cities?
Mind you, it isn’t enough to merely state, for the record, that you disagree with whatever it is (whatEVER it is) that these violent lesbians (if there are any) are doing. I have done that, and been informed I have still not “disavowed” them.
What then, pray tell, constitutes a disavowal? Should we touch our foreheads to the ground five times while moving backwards? One wonders.
I’m sure I’m not the first to warn about this, but there will be more where this came from. After Wheeler, there will be somebody else making an even more astonishing, horror-movie charge about those evil gays.
When do we ever stop disavowing? When is enough appeasement of Right-Wing whackos ever going to be enough?
I say stop right here. Draw a line in the sand. Anything that’s wrong is wrong, period — regardless of the sexual orientation of the person doing it.
Straight folks, get ready to disavow a whole mess of shit.
Sometimes, to
paraphrase a quote Barry Goldwater used when speaking of Jerry Falwell, we simply need to administer a good, swift kick to a few asses.
These people need to be laughed at, not appeased. And as for challenging them to prove allegations we darned well know in advance they cannot prove, as any other reasonable soul already knows that, too, then why bother?
posted by kittynboi on
So, how many lesbian gangs are there? What cities are they active in? When did they form? Who has admitted to being in them? What are their signs, colors, and identifying traits and markings? What is the quantifiable evidence they even exist?
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Now I can go and dig up references to most of those statements CP said you made and I’ll do so once you promise you’ll admit that after I do so you lied about not making those statements and promise you’ll admit you lied about me when you made those statements you (for obvious reasons) haven’t referenced.
Well, actually, Randi, I figured you wouldn’t cooperate, so I went ahead and did it already.
First, your accusation against me of child molestation, in which you conveniently omitted an inconvenient sentence (here added in bold).
It should not be automatically assumed that all multiple marriages are exploitive; that’s discrimination based on assumptions about private lifestyle decisions, which you allegedly oppose.
Furthermore, your attitude that people should not be allowed to marry their preferred sexual partner or partners is unconstitutional — given that you argue marriage is a matter of “equal protection” and therefore cannot be denied anyone under our Constitution.
That sentence and the “given that” makes a world of difference, which is why I suspect you left it off when you “quoted” me.
Now, to the other ones.
I can vouch for CP that you did indeed say blacks should be grateful for slavery because it got them out of Africa
I’m sure you can.
“Grateful” is a loaded word. No, I don’t think people should be particularly grateful for being ripped from their families, their culture, and their way of life through a process that was pure hell and to a new existence that at best was liveable and at worst was utter brutality for centuries. But at the same time, it needs to be acknowledged that, had it not happened, their circumstances would have been significantly different — and their existence would be a drastic change from what it is now.
Given that, I have always thought it would be interesting to do a Wonderful Life-type flashback for African-Americans, showing them what would have happened had their ancestors never been brought to the United States in bondage. What do you think they would see?
That also doesn’t do a lot for your excuse and rationalization for ColoradoPatriot telling me three times to commit suicide:
CP went too far by suggesting you kill yourself but that is mitigated by the fact that you taunted him and suggested that blacks should be grateful for slavery.
Next:
you did say that we shouldn’t mourn Anthony Castro’s death because he killed himself
For the sake of brevity, the thread on Anthony Castro’s death . Please feel free to point out exactly where I said that we shouldn’t mourn Anthony Castro’s death because he killed himself.
or when ND30 claimed that Buddhists were tree-worshiping cultists
The closest thing that I can find to me referring to Buddhists and trees in any context is this.
However, we don’t see Buddhist temples or pagan groves everywhere; instead, we see the enormous churches with the very same theology that these young people found so awful now being filled with them, twenty or thirty years later.
To put it bluntly, Mr. Wheeler….I’m sorry, Randi and ColoradoPatriot…..I went to those places you said there was evidence of these things, and, as we can see from those links, it was far different than what you said was there.
I think the reason is, Mr. Wheeler…oops, I mean Randi and ColoradoPatriot….is because your prejudices, stereotypes, and hatred of the people you’re accusing lead you to assume the worst and to make of what people do something it clearly isn’t.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Next:
you did say that we shouldn’t mourn Anthony Castro’s death because he killed himself
For the sake of brevity, the thread on Anthony Castro’s death starts here.
Please feel free to point out exactly where I said that we shouldn’t mourn Anthony Castro’s death because he killed himself.
or when ND30 claimed that Buddhists were tree-worshiping cultists
The closest thing that I can find to me referring to Buddhists and trees in any context is this.
However, we don’t see Buddhist temples or pagan groves everywhere; instead, we see the enormous churches with the very same theology that these young people found so awful now being filled with them, twenty or thirty years later.
Also in that same thread, I pointed out that the reason I say the majority of gays hate God is because of examples LIKE ColoradoPatriot and Randi who use their sexual orientation as their excuse for antireligious bigotry — and have never, to my knowledge, been corrected.
For example, Randi, is over in other threads screaming that all Christians support polygamy and exploitation of women, and any Christian who says they don’t is lying (as I pointed out here):
And not surprising you don’t want to touch the fact that the bible you claim to worship promotes, supports and sanctifies polygamy as do all Christians by virtue of their promotion of the bible.
And:
The bible you claim to worship and follow clearly sanctifies polygamy and incest. Any Christian attempts to deny that they support such things are clearly lies given their unbridled support and promotion of it as the unblemished word of god.
The overwhelming sentiment in this thread is that a person who tells lies about others should be directly confronted; however, I have yet to see a single person other than myself step up to correct her — incomprehensible if any number of gays were actually religious or Christian.
I think that makes it clear that Randi’s views and hatred of God represent the majority of gays’ opinions.
Thus, Mr. Wheeler….I’m sorry, Randi and ColoradoPatriot…..I went to those places you said there was evidence of these things, and, as we can see from those links, it was far different than what you said was there.
I think the reason is, Mr. Wheeler…oops, I mean Randi and ColoradoPatriot….is because your prejudices, stereotypes, and hatred of the people you’re accusing lead you to assume the worst and to make of what people do something it clearly isn’t.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Mind you, it isn’t enough to merely state, for the record, that you disagree with whatever it is (whatEVER it is) that these violent lesbians (if there are any) are doing. I have done that, and been informed I have still not “disavowed” them.
Did you, Lori?
Sorta.
I suppose anybody with a lick of common sense can probably figure out that — like most lesbians who do not do such things — I disapprove of their behavior.
Not
As for a flat condemnation of the behavior, I can scarcely imagine the sort of idiot who would think I needed to. Anyone who knows me and thinks I would even approve of such a thing, far less actually take part in it, is too stupid to be reasoned with.
You did a good job of insulting people, but there doesn’t seem to be much in the way of actually stating that you oppose the behavior.
It’s as simple as this:
In contrast, I make it clear that there is no “moral relativism” on those things. It is WRONG to tell people to commit suicide. Violently assaulting someone is wrong. Forming violent gangs is wrong. Conscripting ten-year-old kids and forcing them to perform sex acts is wrong.
The homophobes of the universe know very well that the one cardinal sin among gays that they will do their best to avoid at all costs is to criticize another gay person or to say directly and flatly that what they are doing is wrong. And to see how that works, you make it very easy for the person on the street to buy into Wheeler’s theory that that you would turn a blind eye to lesbians forming gangs and practicing violence when a person who is a religious writer and who states she “polices” other gays can’t even find it in herself to go after “GLBTs” who are claiming that all Christians support polygamy and incest — and if they say they don’t, they’re lying.
Gay trumps right and wrong in the “LGBT community”. That is why gay leftists are so immediate with their claims that anyone who criticizes another gay person or doesn’t buy into the theory that a gay person’s actions are always right or “mitigated” is immediately denounced as “not being gay”.
posted by Lori Heine on
“You did a good job of insulting people, but there doesn’t seem to be much in the way of actually stating that you oppose the behavior.”
Of course I oppose the behavior.
NDT, you seem to start every online conversation with a basic script, to which the rest of us must conform — whether we actually do or not.
Therefore, I am a cartoonishly-stereotypical liberal gay person who excuses all evildoing within the community. I thought you were smarter than that.
I still believe that any supposed misbehavior by these dastardly lesbians has been grossly exaggerated. You have done absolutely zero to dispel that suspicion.
I wonder if “policing the community” is best done by believing the very worst about each and every one of us, unless we pass some litmus test imposed by those who hate us. You seem to think that it is, but I disagree with you.
Most gay people are just people — neither one-dimensionally good nor bad, regardless of their place on the political spectrum. There are certainly some I like better than others, but I can’t seem to work up the contempt for them that you appear to have.
I wonder how Christian that is.
So again, I deplore gangsta-rap inspired violence. And certainly I disavow it. I also deplore the demonization of people simply because I disagree with their politics or even their religious convictions.
Many of your online conversations turn into bloodbaths as you and those with whom you disagree go at each other hammer and tongs. It has actually caused some people, I think, to stop posting comments here because they don’t want to be attacked.
Now that you have savaged my character simply because I see this whole “maniacal lesbian” story as a trap — whereas to you, it’s yet another mountain to scale in your earnest attempt to get archconservative straights to like you, I hope you’ll pause to consider why people react to you the way they do.
It may be comforting to think we’re all just so evil and deluded we need somebody to throw the switch on for us. But perhaps if you didn’t start out so ready to believe that, you’d be able to persuade some of the people you’re alienating instead.
posted by Bobby on
” see this whole “maniacal lesbian” story as a trap”
—What about that Hollywood movie Monster? About that lesbian serial killer Aileen Wournous? i didn’t see the movie because I heard it glorified her, showed that psycho killer bitch as a good person who didn’t deserve to die.
There is an element within the lesbian community that hates men, even transexuals, so I wouldn’t be surprised that some of them might turn to violence. Just like there are straights that also turn to violence against gays.
But of course, people who hate O’reilly don’t see that. Last night he had a segment about how at a San Diego baseball game, the Padres decided to have a gay day and a free grivaway day for kids. In the stadium his producer interviewed parents who were against it, parents who were for it, and gays. Then he had two guests, one from the California Family something, and another a gay man. And they argued and O’reilly controlled the discussion so we could hear each guest make his point. And when the homophobic guest started raving that the gay lifestyle is as bad as smoking and how it takes years away from your life, O’reilly was able to move the discussion to something else because that wasn’t the topic of the evening.
Now, go ahead and watch Crossfire, you can’t understand anything, any guests can talk off topic, it’s a freaking mess. Or watch Larry King and fall assleep as he lets his guests say whatever the hell they want without any context whatsoever. Even poor Wolf Blitzer coudln’t control Michael Moore when that lunatic started raving against CNN because the liberal media didn’t kiss his ass enough about sicko, which surprises me since the liberal media has given sicko enough coverage.
My point? O’reilly is fair and balanced, his shows are interesting, he covers issues from all sides, he reads aloud a lot of the letters people send him, and unless you’re bullshiting him, he’ll be nice to you.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Now that you have savaged my character simply because I see this whole “maniacal lesbian” story as a trap — whereas to you, it’s yet another mountain to scale in your earnest attempt to get archconservative straights to like you, I hope you’ll pause to consider why people react to you the way they do.
Yes, Lori; I hate you and have savaged your character so much that I stuck up for you and defended you when dalea attacked you as being a “fundy housewife” and demanded your IP address so that “something could be done” about you.
And if you want to see “savaged your character”, trust me, there are far better examples than that. Questioning why you refuse to hold LGBT people accountable to the same rules you do others looks rather meek and tiny in comparison to accusing you of child molestation, insisting that you support the execution of gay, and telling you on multiple occasions to commit suicide.
And that leads us to this:
It may be comforting to think we’re all just so evil and deluded we need somebody to throw the switch on for us. But perhaps if you didn’t start out so ready to believe that, you’d be able to persuade some of the people you’re alienating instead.
Or, in other words, “Just ignore the fact that leftist gays are shrieking that all Christians hate gays, that all Christians support polygamy and incest, and that all Christians are lying — even though I am a Christian. Instead, get all huffy and puffy and throw fits over straight people making unfounded accusations.”
That’s a recipe for being popular in the gay community, but I don’t think it will garner much support elsewhere; in fact, it leaves you rather open to charges that LGBTs “protect their own” and “cover up” for bad behavior.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
Northdallass said “First, your accusation against me of child molestation, in which you conveniently omitted an inconvenient sentence (here added in bold).”.
You lie, I never said you were a child molestor I said I wouldn’t be surprised IF you were. And YOU conveniently left out a statement from your quote condemning me for opposing child molestation (which I added here in bold):
“all of your statements are discriminatory. It should not be automatically assumed that children are incapable of consent; that’s age discrimination“.
Northdallass at July 12, 2007, 6:11pm you denied making the statmenent that blacks were better off being slaves because it got them out of Africa and now you have admitted that you lied, that you DID say:
“I have always thought it would be interesting to do a Wonderful Life-type flashback for African-Americans, showing them what would have happened had their ancestors never been brought to the United States in bondage. What do you think they would see?”.
You said that at December 21, 2006, 5:27pm and now you try to backpeddal by quoting yourself December 22, 2006, 12:11pm where you tried to soften your bigotry when you were called on it by having disingenously added ” No, I don’t think people should be particularly grateful” to the above unqualified “wonderful life” quote you originally made.
You knew you were going to be caught in your lie so you tried to make it look like there was nothing wrong with it, well the truth is here now for all to see – you’re a bigot and a liar, you denied making that statement at first and there it is because you knew you were going to be caught.
Northdallass said “Please feel free to point out exactly where I said that we shouldn’t mourn Anthony Castro’s death because he killed himself.”
Right here moron:
http://www.indegayforum.org/blog/show/31169.html
at February 2, 2007, 12:02pm in reference to Anthony Castro’s death you said “I just can’t get worked up about gays whining over people driving other gays to commit suicide”
This time your too stupid to admit that you lied when you denied making this statement and fatuously insisted there was no citation to show you did.
Northdallass said “the reason I say the majority of gays hate God is because of examples LIKE ColoradoPatriot and Randi who use their sexual orientation as their excuse for antireligious bigotry”.
LOL…you idiot, at July 12, 2007, 6:11pm you DENIED that you said the majority of gays hate god. You bragged about how your challenging CP to provide a citation proved he was the liar and not you! Once again the facts come out and you’re shown to be the liar you are. And of course you told two lies within that lie. What you actually said was:
“”Liberals (according to you, liberal gays) elected Robinson because he is a blasphemer?”
No, they chose him because he’s gay.
The fact that he was a blasphemer was inconvenient, but let’s face facts; given that the vast majority of gays are antireligious bigots, there weren’t many candidates, and certainly not many, if ANY, who weren’t like Robinson.”.
Clearly your making that statement had nothing to do with anything I said, you lied when you blamed it on me and you lied when you said I blame my being anti-religious on my orientation. I’m anti-religious because religion in general is anti-gay, my orientation doesn’t make me anti-anything.
Northdallass said “I have yet to see a single person other than myself step up to correct her”.
You can’t “correct” what I’m saying because its true and you know it. The bible sanctifies and blesses polygamy and incest and Christians by their unqualified support for the bible do the same. If you want to claim to correct me then condemn the bible right now or STFU.
Northdallass said “your prejudices, stereotypes, and hatred of the people you’re accusing lead you to assume the worst and to make of what people do something it clearly isn’t.”.
We’ve seen you admit (to most) of the statements you denied making thus confirming you’re a liar and the suggestion that people are unfairly thinking ill of you is destroyed by your own despicable hateful words:
http://www.indegayforum.org/blog/show/31198.html?success=1#comments
at March 10, 2007, 2:39am you said “most gays ARE deviant”.
That sums up the reality of your unqualified hatred for and lies about gays, at heart what you want to do is to hurt gays as much as you can and that’s apparent to all here.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
Northdallass said “you make it very easy for the person on the street to buy into Wheeler’s theory that that you would turn a blind eye to lesbians forming gangs and practicing violence”.
She repeatedly denounced gang violence of all types asshole. Only a hatefilled LGBT hater like you would say anyone would think she would turn a blind eye to gangs and violence. By your logic its clear you turn a blind eye to violence by straights and Christians seeing as you totally ignored the examples of Christian wrongdoing I posted and refused to condemn them. Its clear you’re so caught up in your war on gays you don’t give a damn about wrongdoings by anyone else.
Northdallass said “Gay trumps right and wrong in the “LGBT community”. That is why gay leftists are so immediate with their claims that anyone who criticizes another gay person or doesn’t buy into the theory that a gay person’s actions are always right or “mitigated” is immediately denounced as “not being gay”.”
That’s another lying attempt to demonize LGBTS, none of us feel that way. The reason you are being criticized is exactly as
Lori said “I still believe that any supposed misbehavior by these dastardly lesbians has been grossly exaggerated. You have done absolutely zero to dispel that suspicion.”
Not only have you done zero to dispel that gross misrepresentation of our community, you’ve tried to legitimize that view by bringing up an isolated example of lesbian violence instead of the many, many examples of straight violence which are much more typical.
Bobby said ” O’reilly is fair and balanced, his shows are interesting, he covers issues from all sides, he reads aloud a lot of the letters people send him, and unless you’re bullshiting him, he’ll be nice to you.”.
Not quite Bobby. O’reilly went on and on about how children shouldn’t be exposed to loving gays, there’s no way you’d hear him saying the same thing about loving heterosexuals – he’s a bigot plain and simple, albeit a lesser one than his anti-gay guest was. If O’reilly was fair and balanced he wouldn’t have done this non-story in the first place.
Northdallass said to Lori “Or, in other words, “Just ignore the fact that leftist gays are shrieking that all Christians hate gays, that all Christians support polygamy and incest, and that all Christians are lying — even though I am a Christian. Instead, get all huffy and puffy and throw fits over straight people making unfounded accusations.””
This thread isn’t about you moron, its about the lies of Wheeler and addressing that takes precedence over dealing with your petty personal grievances – you’re not important here. And you lied repeatedly. No one said all Christians hate gays and you its a lie for you to blame “gay leftists” in general for the words I am solely responsible for, althought thats typical of you, your style, and you’ve been doing it throughout this thread, blaming all gays for the actions of isolated individuals like those lesbians. You’re no Christian Northdallass, the 10 commandments say thou shalt not bear false witness and you do that habitually. You spit all over the bible you claim to follow.
You lied when you said I assault religious people and heterosexuals in all possible manners, you lied when you said I have multiple sex partners, you lied when you said I demand to have public sex whenever and wherever. And by your own acknowledgement in this thread that is proven by your failure to provide citations to back up your false claims.
posted by Lori Heine on
“But of course, people who hate O’reilly don’t see that.”
Bless your heart, Bobby, you love your little cartoon world and you never, ever-ever-ever-ever want to leave it.
I never said I hate Bill O’Reilly. I watch the No-Spin Zone probably 2 or 3 times a week and generally find it interesting. He is indeed somewhat fairer than many other talk-show hosts.
I’m not sure you can separate, in your mind, what I said from what you pulled out of your ass, but I held him responsible for the guests he invites on his program. Rod Wheeler has long been known to be an extremist, anti-gay-bigoted nut. When Wheeler comes on his program and — surprise! — says extremist, anti-gay-bigoted nutty stuff, the very last person who ought to be surprised about that is Bill O’Reilly.
And NDT, I’m still not sure why you feel you must jump on your white charger and chastise the entire gay community because a few people might (might!) have done something.
I will repeat my position. if — IF — there really are hordes of maniacal lesbians all over the country committing acts of savage violence, then of course I deplore it, disavow it, and disapprove of it. Not that such people would care, but if any of them happen to be reading IGF, then SHAME ON YOU — AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!!
Again, for the record, I think this story is a grotesque, P.T. Barnum-in-the-Big-Top sized exaggeration. And I think there will be more where it came from.
I’ve said this before, and NDT has not addressed it. All he keeps going back to is (A) the blind assumption that all this stuff actually happened and (B) the notion that if gay Christians do not denounce it, the anti-gay Religious Right will not let us into their little club and acknowledge how wrong they’ve been about us.
The anti-gay Religious Right does not want to know that we exist, will never admit it and will not listen to us no matter what we say or do. As for those “in the middle” who might be persuaded, once again, I give them credit for being intelligent enough to know a hoax and a smear campaign when they see one.
I don’t know where you got the notion that I hold GLBT people accountable to some different standard than I do straights. If somebody made up a bunch of slanderous bull about some terrible thing straight people had supposedly done, I would no more castigate those wrongly-accused straight people for an imaginary (or exaggerated) crime than I would gay people. If it sounded as fantabulously absurd as the story Rod Wheeler cooked up, I would be skeptical — just as I am about this one. No double-standard there.
All I have done is reject a double-standard for gay people. And from that, you have spun the notion that I am giving them some free pass I wouldn’t give straights.
Absolutely amazing.
I get the sneaking suspicion that what’s actually wrong here is that LESBIANS did this. I am supposed to open my veins and cry big crocodile tears because of that. I still don’t know, for sure, how many incidents of what Wheeler claims happened actually did take place. Nor do I know that, in every instance, the lesbians were really the attackers. Sound even vaguely familiar? I’ve said all that before, too.
Lesbians have every damned right in this world to defend themselves. And of course when we do, it will always — ALWAYS — be spun, by those who hate gays, into a scenario in which we were supposedly the attackers. Wake up and smell the friggin’ coffee here, people.
I’m not sure that, if I defended myself in a violent attack, I would not be given exactly the same sort of wild-eyed, lurid, demonizing treatment. So if I’m skeptical when someone else is accused of such things, it just might not be because I’m a comfortably-stereotypical liberal who wants to excuse gays from all wrongdoing. Attacking is wrongdoing; defending is most certainly not.
I believe in the Second Amendment right of every citizen — gay or straight — to be armed and to defend him- or herself from violence. How that gets spun into liberalism is really amusing. Are you guys really that threatened by the possibility that women might finally be fed up with violence against themselves and ready to take their defense into their own hands? It isn’t like, if we don’t do that for ourselves, anybody else is very likely to.
If you will recall, liberals do NOT advocate the individual’s right to self-defense. I have actually been told, by liberal straights, that I ought to be murdered simply because — by wanting to carry a gun to defend myself — I must, automatically, be a psycho. How heartwarming to hear that the gay male “conservatives” at IGF apparently agree with them.
In short, I obviously see this whole issue very differently from NDT and Bobby. How nice of them to turn me into a cartoon character liberal instead of dealing with what I have really said.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
LOL….yeah, Randi, that’s what I thought.
For example, this is what you originally insisted:
I can vouch for CP that you did indeed say blacks should be grateful for slavery because it got them out of Africa
But now, when I clearly demonstrated the opposite, you changed your story.
Northdallass at July 12, 2007, 6:11pm you denied making the statmenent that blacks were better off being slaves because it got them out of Africa
Similarly:
you did say that we shouldn’t mourn Anthony Castro’s death because he killed himself
which then became:
at February 2, 2007, 12:02pm in reference to Anthony Castro’s death you said “I just can’t get worked up about gays whining over people driving other gays to commit suicide”
I also see you gave up on this:
or when ND30 claimed that Buddhists were tree-worshiping cultists
You’re just like Wheeler; get called on your accusations, and all you can do is change your story.
Meanwhile, as for the majority of gays being antireligious bigots, I think your posts are the best argument for that that could possibly be made.
And for the last:
at March 10, 2007, 2:39am you said “most gays ARE deviant”.
What I said was this.
And I stand by it. Most normal people say it’s WRONG to tell another person to commit suicide; gays like you and ColoradoPatriot don’t. Most normal people say it’s WRONG to demand to group moderators that a person’s IP and home address be revealed so you can “do something” about them; gays like dalea don’t. Most normal people say it’s WRONG to accuse all Christians of supporting polygamy and incest and insist they’re lying when they clearly state they don’t; gays like you don’t. And most normal people would not throw hissy fits over mentioning crimes that actually happened because they think it casts a bad light on people of their sexual orientation; you do.
The reason I said “most gays” is because there are ones out there, myself included, who don’t do any of those things. I think telling people to commit suicide is wrong. I think demanding peoples’ IP addresses to harass them is wrong. I think we should call out, prosecute, and punish criminals regardless of sexual orientation. It doesn’t make any difference WHO does it, nor is the fact “mitigated”; it’s just plain wrong.
My hope is that one day, we CAN say that most gays AREN’T deviants. But, as we can see from this thread, that’s a long way off.
posted by Lori Heine on
“The reason I said ‘most gays’ is because there are ones out there, myself included, who don’t do any of those things. I think telling people to commit suicide is wrong. I think demanding peoples’ IP addresses to harass them is wrong. I think we should call out, prosecute, and punish criminals regardless of sexual orientation. It doesn’t make any difference WHO does it, nor is the fact ‘mitigated’; it’s just plain wrong.”
NDT, I never, NEVER said, on this thread or anywhere else, that people should not be condemned or prosecuted when they commit crimes, regardless of their sexual orientation. As a matter of fact, I have stated that there ought, indeed, to be a single standard for all — gay or straight.
But it doesn’t provide me with much comfort to know that if someone tries to murder me in cold blood, and I have the audacity to defend myself, I will be mindlessly demonized — even by the very same gay men who would have no trouble understanding what I’d done had I been a gay man — and railroaded into prison for it.
I hear, over and over again, from lesbians who are really very conservative, that we are unwelcome in the Republican Party, unwelcome in the entire gay conservative movement, and that no matter what we say, we will be demonized, cartoonized and judged according to tired and moronic stereotypes. I can certainly see that happening here.
And then you guys sit around and scratch your heads, wondering why there aren’t more conservative lesbians! Go figure!
As for your having defended me when dalea tried his poisonous little number, of course I appreciated your support.
But let’s say, for the sake of argument, that he had gotten ahold of my ISP number, had tracked me to my house, and had tried to murder me. Are you actually trying to say that if Rod Wheeler then went on Bill O’Reilly’s program and claimed I was some homicidal nut who’d painted my pistol pink and only taken time out from sodomizing kindergarteners long enough to shoot dalea, I belonged in prison?!
I still believe this whole uproar was intended to have a chilling effect on lesbians’ willingess and ability to defend themselves. If you think people like Rod Wheeler are going to differentiate between a gang-banging teenager and a forty-four-year-old woman defending herself in her own home, I think you are very sadly mistaken. To the Rod Wheelers of this world, there is absolutely no difference — and there never will be, no matter how vehemently I, or any other lesbian, disavows what that gang-banging teen might do.
I have tried to make my position clear — and I mean my REAL position, not the ridiculous caricature of one you and Bobby have tried to tag me with. If you still don’t understand where I’m coming from here, there simply isn’t much else I can do.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
And NDT, I’m still not sure why you feel you must jump on your white charger and chastise the entire gay community because a few people might (might!) have done something.
What I am criticizing, Lori, is this particular attitude.
Lesbians have every damned right in this world to defend themselves. And of course when we do, it will always — ALWAYS — be spun, by those who hate gays, into a scenario in which we were supposedly the attackers. Wake up and smell the friggin’ coffee here, people.
Which evidently includes a judge and a jury, as well as the police.
I believe in the Second Amendment right of every citizen — gay or straight — to be armed and to defend him- or herself from violence.
So do I. But the corollary of that is that you do not have the right to use the fact that you can be armed as a means of attacking others, as clearly happened in these two cases.
I have actually been told, by liberal straights, that I ought to be murdered simply because — by wanting to carry a gun to defend myself — I must, automatically, be a psycho. How heartwarming to hear that the gay male “conservatives” at IGF apparently agree with them.
Mhm; and that would be why I used to teach kids, boys AND girls, pistol, rifle, and shotgun care, maintenance, and shooting, and why my sisters/in-laws all have pistols which I helped pay for. I grew up on a ranch where, if women were lucky, they saw men three times a day — when they woke up, at lunchtime, and after sundown. In-between, the house and the farmyard, including all the calves and lambs, was theirs to defend, which is why my grandmother could drop a coyote with a .22 at a distance of 200 yards.
So in short, I have no trouble seeing women as my equals (and in some cases, betters) in that regard. But what is happening here is an interesting little point; women may be equal to men in every way, but when seven of them gang up on and knife an unarmed man, it’s “self-defense”.
THAT’S what worries me here.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
But it doesn’t provide me with much comfort to know that if someone tries to murder me in cold blood, and I have the audacity to defend myself, I will be mindlessly demonized — even by the very same gay men who would have no trouble understanding what I’d done had I been a gay man — and railroaded into prison for it.
Lori, I promise you this; if someone, regardless of gender, tries to break into your house and/or attack you, two things will happen:
1) I will help pay your legal fees
2) I will gladly debate Rod Wheeler (or anyone else who tries to demonize you) and nicely kick their ass
That is because I trust you to have used your gun wisely and in self-defense, and I also think that not even Rod Wheeler is dumb enough to argue that your defending yourself in your own home is evidence of “lesbian gangs”.
But if you and seven other of your friends empty your clips into a guy just because he called you a name, expect no mercy. And that is what I am concerned about; I see a very troubling confusion on the gay side between what is right and wrong.
You and I are going to disagree on the Pink Pistols thing. I do not think Wheeler was out to deliberately smear Pink Pistols; I think he honestly didn’t know what Pink Pistols was, and made a really stupid assumption.
posted by kittynboi on
“”There is an element within the lesbian community that hates men, even transexuals, so I wouldn’t be surprised that some of them might turn to violence. Just like there are straights that also turn to violence against gays. “”
Well, then save that reaction for when it actually does happen and is confirmed, rather than all this hot air over things that are only speculation and hypotheticals, barely even approaching the level of hearsay.
No one has answered any of my questions about who these supposed gangs are, how many people are in them, where they operate, who has admitted to being in them, and what their identifying traits are.
Can anyone answer these?
The crips, bloods, mafia, latin kings, la raza, yakuza, russian mafia, aryan nations, christian identity, ALF, and various other criminal groups and organizations are extensively documented and identified.
Can the same be said of these lesbian gangs?
posted by kittynboi on
“”If you will recall, liberals do NOT advocate the individual’s right to self-defense. I have actually been told, by liberal straights, that I ought to be murdered simply because — by wanting to carry a gun to defend myself — I must, automatically, be a psycho. How heartwarming to hear that the gay male “conservatives” at IGF apparently agree with them.””
Just another example of the failed legacy of Ghandi that the left continues to lionize.
posted by Lori Heine on
“So in short, I have no trouble seeing women as my equals (and in some cases, betters) in that regard. But what is happening here is an interesting little point; women may be equal to men in every way, but when seven of them gang up on and knife an unarmed man, it’s ‘self-defense’.”
I have no sympathy for the lesbians in that particular incident.
The problem is that, on this thread, that one incident has been conflated with what Wheeler said, which — I have been given to understand — was that hordes of lesbians, all over the country, were joining gangs, recruiting children and sodomizing little girls.
The first incident, I have no doubt is probably real. As to the rest of it, where’s the beef?
Again, I have no trouble condemning something that actually happend. So of course I do condemn the seven lesbians who ganged up on one man. He might have been asking for trouble, but one or two unarmed women certainly should have been able to stand up to a single unarmed man.
Just because I refuse to jump into a condemnation of deeds I believe are imaginary, that does not mean I do not soundly condemn the one that was real.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
Northdallass said “”I can vouch for CP that you did indeed say blacks should be grateful for slavery because it got them out of Africa”
But now, when I clearly demonstrated the opposite, you changed your story.”.
You idiot, you clearly demonstrated that you did say that! You said “I have always thought it would be interesting to do a Wonderful Life-type flashback for African-Americans, showing them what would have happened had their ancestors never been brought to the United States in bondage. What do you think they would see?””.
You lied, you said exactly what you claimed you didn’t and when you were called on it you tried to backpedal at a later date and claim you really didn’t mean it. Well we know you did and you’re a liar as well as a bigot.
Northdallass said “You’re just like Wheeler; get called on your accusations, and all you can do is change your story.”.
You’re the one changing your story, CP and I said you claimed the vast majority of gays are anti-religious and at July 12, 2007, 6:11pm you denied that, fatuously suggesting that you had proved we lied because we hadn’t cited the links to show that you said that. Well, here it is:
http://www.indegayforum.org/blog/show/31138.html#6044
at December 18, 2006, 4:55pm you said “the vast majority of gays are antireligious bigots” – you lied when you said you never made that statement and I proved it and now lie a moron you’re trying to deny that.
And similarly you lied when you said you didn’t say that we shouldn’t mourn Anthony Castro’s death because he killed himself.
at February 2, 2007, 12:02pm in reference to Anthony Castro’s death you said “I just can’t get worked up about gays whining over people driving other gays to commit suicide”.
You’ve been caught in your lies and now you’re lying about that.
Northdallass said “Meanwhile, as for the majority of gays being antireligious bigots, I think your posts are the best argument for that that could possibly be made.”.
You’re insane. I speak only for myself and once again you lie and try to blame all gays for what one person has said. That’s typical of the type of lie you repeat over and over and over. The LGBT communitie as a whole is not responsible for what one person says. The majority of gays are religious and what I say about relgion proves nothing about what any other LGBT thinks. And I’m not gay, I’m bisexual and its not bigotry when I speak the truth and religion in general is anti-gay
Northdallass said “”most gays ARE deviant…And I stand by it. Most normal people say it’s WRONG to tell another person to commit suicide; gays like you and ColoradoPatriot don’t”.
Spoken just like the unrepentant lying gay attacker you are. You lie again, I did say it was wrong for CP to tell you to kill yourself, but you can’t acknowledge the truth because you’re evil. CP, myself, and Dalea don’t by any stretch of the imagination represent most LGBTs and your insane rants that we do only highlight your blind hatred of LGBTs and your willfull stupidity.
You rant about the isolated wrongdoings of gays but you totally ignore when Christians doing wrong like a priest molesting a boy:
http://www.news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070331/NEWSREC0101/703310306/-1/GTCOM0200
or a pastor throwing a man out of a shelter because he’s gay:
http://www.365gay.com/Newscon07/06/061407colorado.htm
Its obvious that contrary to your baseless assertions you don’t give a damn about wrongdoing when its done by Christians and heterosexuals, you want to validate the lies of people like wheeler by drawing attention to the minority of wrongdoings by LGBTS while ignoring the vast majority of wrongdoings which are by heterosexuals. You support his lying, and YOU’RE the one just like Wheeler, without any basis you lied and said I assault religious people and heterosexuals in all possible manners, you lied and said I have multiple sex partners, you lied and said I demand to have public sex whenever and wherever. And by your own acknowledgement in this thread that is proven by your failure to provide citations to back up your false claims.
Wheeler grossly exagerated about lesbians saying their out of control with gays raping young girls and instead of setting the record right you jumped in there to defend them and claim that all gays are deviants. Its obvious that if anyone wants to hurt people (LGBTS), its you, you’re a psychopath.
posted by ColoradoPatriot on
ND30: “…my grandmother could drop a coyote with a .22 at a distance of 200 yards.”
I think Grandma might have been as fast and loose with reality as you are ND30…trying to bring down a coyote at 200 yards with a .22 (I assume it was a long rifle) would be very VERY difficult. Was your Grandma Annie Oakley?
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
Lori said “And NDT, I’m still not sure why you feel you must jump on your white charger and chastise the entire gay community because a few people might (might!) have done something.”
Northdallass replied “What I am criticizing, Lori, is this particular attitude.”.
Bullshit, you’re demeaning, demonizing and blaming the entire LGBT community for it. Thats why you lie and say the vast majority of gays are antireligious bigots (and then lie about having said that). Thats why you blindly smear all gays by saying “most gays ARE deviant”. You don’t give a damn about the attitude, you want to hurt innocent gays as much as you can.
Northdallass said “So in short, I have no trouble seeing women as my equals (and in some cases, betters) in that regard. But what is happening here is an interesting little point; women may be equal to men in every way, but when seven of them gang up on and knife an unarmed man, it’s “self-defense”.
THAT’S what worries me here.”.
You’re not worried about that at all, if you were you wouldn’t have hesitated to condemn the priest that molested the boy I spoke of. You don’t care about wrongdoing at all unless you can use it to demonize LGBTS.
Northdallass said “But if you and seven other of your friends empty your clips into a guy just because he called you a name, expect no mercy. And that is what I am concerned about; I see a very troubling confusion on the gay side between what is right and wrong.”
Bullshit, you don’t see any confusion in the gay community about right and wrong, you just want to convince people there is in your attempts to harm all LGBTS. Lori repeatedly condemned violence and gang activity as have others. There is no epidemic of violence in the LGBT community, but just like Wheeler you want to convince people there is because like him you blindly hate gays no matter how well behaved they are. That’s why you dig up isolated wrong-doings by gays and ignore the far more prevalent gang violence by straights like Kittynboi pointed out. Where’s your condemnation of the crips, bloods, mafia, latin kings, la raza, yakuza, russian mafia, aryan nations, christian identity, ALF, and various other heterosexualcriminal groups and organizations? Oh yeah, the violence they do is irrelevant to you because they are straight and Christian groups.
The fact is Wheeler grotesquely lied about the prevalence of lesbian gang violence and you couldn’t just condemn the distortion and leave it at that, you had to try and validate the lie.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
CP, you know what a liar Northdallass is, just look at how he keeps tryint to deny saying blacks were better off because slavery got them out of Africa.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
I think Grandma might have been as fast and loose with reality as you are ND30…trying to bring down a coyote at 200 yards with a .22 (I assume it was a long rifle) would be very VERY difficult.
Well, I’ll put it this way, ColoradoPatriot; you aren’t the first person to insist she’s lyin’, sayin’ there’s no way a woman could be a crack shot like that.
I did say it was wrong for CP to tell you to kill yourself, but you can’t acknowledge the truth because you’re evil.
No, you didn’t, Randi; you claimed it was OK because I taunted him (how, I’m not sure) and because I said blacks should be grateful for slavery — which I now have demonstrated twice I didn’t say.
I think the degree of your delusion can be nicely demonstrated by the juxtaposition of statements.
What I said:
“Grateful” is a loaded word. No, I don’t think people should be particularly grateful for being ripped from their families, their culture, and their way of life through a process that was pure hell and to a new existence that at best was liveable and at worst was utter brutality for centuries. But at the same time, it needs to be acknowledged that, had it not happened, their circumstances would have been significantly different — and their existence would be a drastic change from what it is now.
Given that, I have always thought it would be interesting to do a Wonderful Life-type flashback for African-Americans, showing them what would have happened had their ancestors never been brought to the United States in bondage. What do you think they would see?
What you saw:
I can vouch for CP that you did indeed say blacks should be grateful for slavery because it got them out of Africa
Or when you claimed you saw this:
you did say that we shouldn’t mourn Anthony Castro’s death because he killed himself
in this
LMAO…..do you even realize, Carl, the irony over whining about a gay kid committing suicide when, on the same board and same message thread, another gay person is telling a gay man to do the world a favor and commit suicide, not once,/a>, but twice?
Somehow, I just can’t get worked up about gays whining over people driving other gays to commit suicide when they seem to be completely blind to other gays driving people to commit suicide.
Or when you claimed:
or when ND30 claimed that Buddhists were tree-worshiping cultists
which you still haven’t bothered to find.
I speak only for myself and once again you lie and try to blame all gays for what one person has said.
LOL….oh, Randi, you’re a card. Do you honestly expect me to believe that people who don’t agree with you will sit around and say nothing while you make statements like this?
And not surprising you don’t want to touch the fact that the bible you claim to worship promotes, supports and sanctifies polygamy as do all Christians by virtue of their promotion of the bible.
And:
The bible you claim to worship and follow clearly sanctifies polygamy and incest. Any Christian attempts to deny that they support such things are clearly lies given their unbridled support and promotion of it as the unblemished word of god.
Come on. Really. You’re asking me to believe that most gays, who flip out at that with which they disagree, as we’ve seen on this thread, are going to sit there and say nothing while you insist flatly that they support polygamy and incest? You really think I believe that the Ex-Gay Watch fellows, for example, wouldn’t say something if they didn’t agree with you about Christianity supporting and fully endorsing incest and polygamy?
And finally:
I did say it was wrong for CP to tell you to kill yourself, but you can’t acknowledge the truth because you’re evil.
Nope, you said it was perfectly justified because, as you claim, I “taunted” him and I said blacks should be grateful for slavery (or whatever you’ve changed that to now).
posted by Bobby on
” Rod Wheeler has long been known to be an extremist, anti-gay-bigoted nut.”
—Perhaps, but when straight people look at him, they don’t see that. He’s like the Pope, even though he says homophobic stuff, straight people overlook it.
Still, from the interview, I felt he was a cop talking about his experiences. Cops and doctors often have misguided views about people due to the nature of their profession. Among black cops for example, some have developed racism against their own community due to their constant encounters with black criminals.
Give Wheeler a break, he wasn’t ranting against same-sex marriage, he was reporting on a new phenomenon.
posted by Lori Heine on
“He’s like the Pope, even though he says homophobic stuff, straight people overlook it.”
Like the Pope, Bobby? The Pope? Some guy none of us ever heard of until this whole mess blew up in the media?
Bobby, sit down and breathe. Just breathe. You’re losing it.
Wheeler is an ex-cop. A disgraced ex-cop. He calls himself a “Food Safety Expert.” In the normal, healthy mind — a mind in touch with reality — this has exactly zilch to do with His Holiness, the Bishop of Rome.
As for his “reporting on a new phenomenon,” I ask the question again: “Where’s the beef?”
Don’t go back and conflate the “lesbian seven” thing with the “hordes of lesbians all over the country with pink pistols” thing. Try. to. focus.
Good lord, this thread is going batso.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
Northdallass said “you claimed it was OK because I taunted him”.
You lie, I never said that, I said that your taunting mitgated his wrongdoing, not that it excused it. You are the one too stupid to know the difference between mitigation and justification, I had to spell it out for you with the dictionary and even then you were to willfully stupid to acknowledge the difference.
Colorado Patriot said “And since we’re dredging up deplorable things posted to this board how about when ND30 stated that blacks should be grateful for slavery because it got them out of Africa…or when ND30 claimed that Buddhists were tree-worshiping cultists…or when ND30 said that we shouldn’t mourn Anthony Castro’s death because he killed himself (he didn’t kill himself, it was a car wreck)…or when ND30 said that gays deserved to die from HIV/AIDS because of their filthy sex lives…or when ND30 said that the majority of homosexuals hate God”.
At July 12, 2007, 6:11pm and July 12, 2007, 6:20pm YOU DENIED MAKING THOSE STATEMENTS. On at least three of the them you lied as you clearly did make such statements and we can safely assume the same is true of the others.
http://www.indegayforum.org/blog/show/31138.html#6044
at December 18, 2006, 4:55pm you said “the vast majority of gays are antireligious bigots” – you lied when you said you never made that statement.
at December 21, 2006, 5:27pm you said “And to your specific point, Randi, concerning slavery in the United States, I have always thought it would be interesting to do a Wonderful Life-type flashback for African-Americans, showing them what would have happened had their ancestors never been brought to the United States in bondage. What do you think they would see?”
Its exactly like CP said, you suggested that black people should be grateful for slavery because it got them out of africa – and like the liar you are you denied ever making that suggestion, trusting that no one could be bothered to dig up your hateful statements. Your after the fact spinning that you didn’t really mean it doesn’t mean anything, the only thing that statement can mean is that you consider blacks to have been better off because slavery got them out of africa.
and in this thread
http://www.indegayforum.org/blog/show/31169.html
at February 2, 2007, 12:02pm in reference to Anthony Castro’s death you said “I just can’t get worked up about gays whining over people driving other gays to commit suicide”. Again the only meaning one can take from that is that people shouldn’t mourn his death because he killed himself.
As we see in all three cases you claimed “What ColoradoPatriot (and Randi) are banking on is audience solidarity; that is, they believe that they don’t have to provide evidence, because people will automatically believe them and not me.” and we see you lied about at least three of these, despite your inistence that people should believe you did not say these things you obviously did. Again, your habitual lying is exposed.
Not to mention in this thread
http://www.indegayforum.org/blog/show/31198.html?success=1#comments
at March 10, 2007, 2:39am you said “most gays ARE deviant” thus indicating your unbridaled irrational blind hatred for gays and lumping all innocent gays together.
Northdallass said “Or when you claimed:
or when ND30 claimed that Buddhists were tree-worshiping cultists
which you still haven’t bothered to find.”.
I never claimed you said that, CP did, I said I believe CP unlike you because he’s not a habitual liar. That you obviously lied about 3 of the 6 statements of his shows you are a liar and there’s no need to go further, what you are has been well established over and over and over.
I said to Northdallass “I did say it was wrong for CP to tell you to kill yourself, but you can’t acknowledge the truth because you’re evil.”
Northdallass replied “Nope, you said it was perfectly justified”.
If there was any truth to that I’m sure you’ll have no problem proving it. If you’re not lying provide the citation where I said that. You can’t because you’ve lied yet again. I NEVER said it was perfectly justified, I said his wrongdoing was mitigated by your taunting and you lied about that yet again.
Its just like you lied when you said I assault religious people and heterosexuals in all possible manners, or that I have multiple sex partners, or that I demand to have public sex whenever and wherever – you can’t prove it because YOU LIED like the HABITUAL LIAR you are.
Northdallass said “You really think I believe that the Ex-Gay Watch fellows, for example, wouldn’t say something if they didn’t agree with you about Christianity supporting and fully endorsing incest and polygamy?”.
Now your displaying your willfull stupidity again. I am one person, just because I say something doesn’t mean all LGBTS agree as you’re claiming. There weren’t any people from Exgaywatch on this thread you idiot. ALL LGBTS do not read this thread you idiot. The readers of IGF are not a representative sample of all gays you moron and of course many people who disagree won’t mention partially because your comments are so egregious that everyone’s attention is focused on you and your attacks on and lies about LGBTs. Why don’t you google “representative sample” and read a bit about that which you’re so sadly ill-informed?! What people say here has nothing to do with what most gays think or are like.
And its no surprise that you go silent when it comes to condemning your bible for its support of polygamy and incest. You refuse to condemn it because you totally and blindly support all the bible regardless of how evil it is. You support polygamy, incest, and child molestation – you’ve said so yourself.
And its no surprise that you go silent when a priest molests a child or a pastor kicks someone out of a homeless shelter just for being gay. You don’t give a damn about wrongdoings when christians or heterosexuals do them, and you don’t even care when lesbians do it other than to the extent you can falsly claim this is typical of LGBTS just like Wheeler does.
You don’t give a damn about the truth or what’s right, your goal is to demean, dehumanize, and demonize LGBTs because in your twisted mind that makes you feel better about your pathetic self. You can’t build your self up on your own merits (because you have none) so you have to try to feel better by tearing good innocent people down.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
You lie, I never said that, I said that your taunting mitgated his wrongdoing, not that it excused it.
What you are doing, Randi, is spinning and making excuses for why what ColoradoPatriot did was not wrong. You are justifying his actions by providing reasons for them and explaining why what he did is not simply wrong.
At July 12, 2007, 6:11pm and July 12, 2007, 6:20pm YOU DENIED MAKING THOSE STATEMENTS.
Really.
Here’s 6:11; here’s 6:20.
Both of those posts are asking you to provide your sources — which you, of course, refused to do.
Which is why I published them myself.
I have nothing to hide; nor do I fear those statements coming forward. It is you and ColoradoPatriot who did your best to make accusations without providing sources.
And the reason why is obvious; when my actual words are placed next to your interpretations, what becomes immediately obvious is that your interpretations are slanted by your personal bigotry and prejudice.
The readers of IGF are not a representative sample of all gays you moron and of course many people who disagree won’t mention partially because your comments are so egregious that everyone’s attention is focused on you and your attacks on and lies about LGBTs.
So even if they disagreed with you, they wouldn’t say or do anything anyway because they don’t like the person involved.
In contrast, in the case you cited, the pastor who molested the child was exposed and arrested. For some reason, they had no trouble reporting on and enforcing the rules against someone who was doing something with which they disagreed.
You don’t give a damn about the truth or what’s right, your goal is to demean, dehumanize, and demonize LGBTs because in your twisted mind that makes you feel better about your pathetic self.
In your case, Randi, “demean, dehumanize, and demonize” is in every sense of the word a self-inflicted wound.
I didn’t force you to come up with interpretations of my statements that don’t match the statements themselves.
I didn’t force you to accuse me of having a child chained up in my basement to molest.
I didn’t force you to claim that all Christians support polygamy and incest.
I didn’t force ColoradoPatriot to tell me to commit suicide.
And most of all, I didn’t force the numerous gay people you claim disagree with you to keep their mouths shut.
All of that was your decision and theirs. And it isn’t my fault that your doing so makes you look bad.
posted by Lori Heine on
“I didn’t force ColoradoPatriot to tell me to commit suicide.”
Good night, what sort of stuff are we saying to each other now?!
Nobody should EVER tell anyone else here to commit suicide. I have objected to some of the things NDT has said, but I would never say something like that to anyone. Neither CP nor anyone else has any business telling him something like that.
That’s worse than threatening to get someone’s ISP number and “deal with” them. That’s about the worst thing I can think of.
Even when I disagree with people here, I still respect them. NDT is a good person, who simply differs with some of the rest of us about some issues.
As far as my disagreements with him are concerned, I think they’re more a matter of ends than means. We basically seem to end up at the same place most of the time.
I don’t believe that anybody on this site wants to destroy the rights of anybody else. If we keep bickering like this, we’re only doing our enemies’ work for them.
To quote that venerable sage, Rodney King, “Can’t we all just get along?”
posted by Lori Heine on
Miss Crump is through with her vapors now. I can go back to being butch.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
I can go back to being butch.
Did you ever stop? 🙂
posted by Lori Heine on
“Did you ever stop? :)”
NDT, you don’t believe the “Miss Crump” part? I was trying to think of another character that sometimes reminded me of me.
I guess I’m more like a combination of Aunt Bee and Frankie the farmer’s tomboy daughter.
(Please pardon the Andy Griffith Show references. I decided long ago that program tells us just about everything we need to know about life.)
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
LOL….well, let me put it this way, Lori….two guesses on what box set my dad wanted more than anything in the world for Christmas.
(puts on Rascal Flatts’s “Mayberry”)
posted by Brian Miller on
Skipping over ND-30 drama, I noted this quote:
The lesbians in New York City tried to argue that they were justified in nearly killing a man because he allegedly called them names.
The gay and lesbian teenagers in Washington, DC, stabbed, assaulted, and nearly killed another teenager because he belonged to a rival gang.
Wow. That’s a big crisis alright — all the lesbians in New York are trying to kill people who call them names! And all the teenagers in DC are busy trying to kill people because they belong to rival gangs.
I’m so glad I don’t live in those communities, and that someone with as keen an intellect — not to mention deep reach into the gay community — as Bill O’Reilly is on the story.
I mean, look at all the openly gay reporters O’Reilly has employed at FOX News. These guys are definitely the *first* people I’d turn to for news about gay issues! Just like I would turn to their white guy “analysts” for viewpoints on what black Americans thing, and how I turn to their all-male “analysts” for their perspectives on soccer moms.
FOX News, like Air America, is a fantasyland designed to create and sustain a world-view completely independent from reality. People who subsist on it, defend it as somehow factual (or interesting as a news source, rather than as a study in mendacity), or reflexively mouth its myriad simple talking points, are simply participating in self-deception.
Which would be quite alright, except for the fact that they seem intent on deceiving everyone else, as well, and dragging us down their control-freak garden path as laid out by their chosen “news celebrities.”
Think about it for a minute.
What does Bill O’Reilly — Bill O’friggin’Reilly — know about gay stuff? Nothing. He’s a straight guy who sexually harassed one of his female employees. His bloviating on gay issues is roughly analogous to my purporting to report on Mormon heterosexual mating habits.
What does Mikey Moore know about health care and medical economics? Zilch! His thoughts on “health care reform” are about as interesting (and well researched) as the thoughts of Paul Cameron on “what gays do.”
Until “conservatives” and “liberals” get out of their ideological brain-prisons and start living in the real world, America is going to be caught in the middle of a war between the deaf and the blind. The collateral damage is already showing in our society, economy, national conversation, and foreign policy.