In the latest gay scandal, John Browne, the heretofore closeted head of oil giant BP, resigns for (among other transgressions) the misuse of company assets on behalf of his former boyfriend. The scandal brings to mind the resignation of New Jersey Gov. James McGreevey.
Openly gay Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson announces his impending civil union, sure to further inflame anti-gay Episcopalian/Anglican reactionaries, as Nigerian Bishop Peter Akinola, who wants gays imprisoned for socializing together, visits the U.S. to "bless" anti-gay break-away churches and install his puppet bishop over them.
Meanwhile, James McGreevey is taking steps to become an Episcopal priest.
23 Comments for “Unrelated Events?”
posted by jomicur on
Actually, the BP scandal is much more reminiscent of the situation that forced Ted Haggard to resign. Oh, no, wait–I forgot–Haggard is a conservative Christian and therefore good beyond question. On Steve Miller’s website, only liberals are bad. Never mind what I said, then. This is nothing like poor, martyred Rev. Haggard’s debacle. He was the victim of evil liberal gays. No, no, no. And as for Gene Robinson, how DARE he plan to commit to the man he loves when good Christian conservatives like Rev. Haggard might disapprove. What pm earth is wrong with him?
posted by Richard J. Rosendall on
Gee, Steve hardly needs to write anything with you available to stuff words in his mouth.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Stephen, those facts related in a single post should be able to qualify in the Guiness Book of Records as “the virtually impossible made real”. No one in Hollywood (or a reporter for the NYTimes) could make those incredible facts link up in 2 paragraphs. Bravo.
The unreal GayLeft world becomes more unreal every day… and they lead our community? Wow.
posted by Brian Miller on
McGreevey. A “man of God.”
It’s almost comedy now, until you consider who some of the other “men of God” in the past have been.
posted by Jorge on
The only thought I’m willing to consider in the whole McGreevey deal is whether his Grey’s Anatomy character should be titled McSleazy or McSlutty.
posted by Lori Heine on
Simply “inflaming” people who are “reactionaries” is not, in and of itself, a terrible thing. There are plenty of reactionaries who need a good inflaming. If openly gay clerics like Robinson are able to do that, then more power to them. Maybe they’ll get the Akinolas of the world so inflamed they’ll spontaneously combust.
As to any likeness between Robinson and Brown, I can’t see it. Though the similarity between Brown’s stepdown and that of McGreevey is obvious.
If McGreevey thinks that moral paragon status is going to be conferred on him simply because he becomes an Episcopal priest, he’d better think again.
posted by Brian Miller on
On the bright side, it should make for some interesting reading when he comes out with his next book. 🙂
posted by Tim Hulsey on
Meanwhile, Jeff Gannon is leading evangelical prayer meetings on the steps of the Capitol. This gives a whole new meaning to the phrase, “Every knee shall bow.”
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Which I daresay, Tim, is doing more for the image of gays as not being hostile towards religion than the usual apologetes for gay antireligious bigotry.
Meanwhile, Lori, the problem is that, if you want to inflame reactionaries, you can choose better than someone whose theology involves his belief that Jesus and the apostles were gay and had regular bouts of gay sex with each other — and who considers his high-school locker room fantasies fitting material for sermons.
What would be the best choice is a gay clergyperson who would roundly condemn the antireligious bigotry so prevalent among gays, who would make it clear that being gay is a poor and pathetic excuse for being antireligious, and who would, rather than making snide remarks about Jeff Gannon, praise him for staying and practicing his faith regardless of his past.
But nobody wants to be that hated or unpopular in the gay community.
posted by Lori Heine on
To tell the truth, NDT, I don’t know very much about Bishop Robinson’s theology, or about what he has said or written. Most of what I have heard up ’til now has been filtered through the mainstream media, and subject to whatever the agenda is there.
Usually he is portrayed either very glowingly, as some sort of a hero, or as somebody who is entertainingly problemmatic (sort of like Paris Hilton) simply for the sake of being newsworthy.
If he’s saying a bunch of crazy stuff, then I would have a problem with that, too.
posted by Brian Miller on
Which I daresay, Tim, is doing more for the image of gays as not being hostile towards religion than the usual apologetes for gay antireligious bigotry.
Question for the religious:
Why is believing that religion is superstitious mythology and a choice that one can undo considered “bigoted” and worth of condemnation. . .
Yet anti-gay condemnations of gays as “objectively disordered” and people who have “no redeeming social value” considered a “deep belief” that is “offensive” to question?
posted by Lori Heine on
Question for the nonreligious:
Why does it make you so angry that other people make choices different than your own?
No one is telling you to convert. And no one’s trying to stop you from showing your intolerance toward religion. Simply because some other people do not share your views, that does not mean we’re telling you they’re “unworthy of consideration.” In the context of the conversation, they’re simply irrelevant.
If I’m arguing the merits of the current Phoenix Mercury team with friends, and another friend butts in with “womens’ basketball is stupid and nobody ought to bother with it,” we would not be thinking SHUT THAT PERSON UP. We would be thinking, “wow, is that ever irrelevant! Why is he so intolerant of womens’ basketball that he can’t even stand to overhear a conversation about it?”
Not a very profound example, but I think an apt one.
Brian, we’ve simply made a different choice than yours. Let a thousand flowers bloom!
And we are talking about that other choice.
It’s that thing we gays talk about ’til we’re blue in the face, yet all too often seem not to understand (at least not when we’re being asked to give it instead of receiving it): TOLERANCE.
Ain’t America grand?
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Why is believing that religion is superstitious mythology and a choice that one can undo considered “bigoted” and worth of condemnation. . .
Because, Mr. Miller, you base it on the fact that you are gay.
If you and your fellow gay antireligious bigots would simply leave your homosexuality out of it, I doubt either Lori or I would care. But frankly, your use of your homosexuality as a means of making your antireligious bigotry more palatable looks exactly the same to us as those who use religion as a means of making their antigay bigotry more palatable.
Interestingly enough, you both are saying the same thing, that being gay and being religious are antithetical; you do so by belittling and badmouthing gays who are religious as “superstitious” and not “evolved”.
They do so by merely repeating your own words about the religious and religious gays.
And also, just to make sure you don’t get any funny ideas of shrieking about how preaching and the like causes antigay violence, remember this…..if belittling someone else increases violence against them, your doing so to the religious….
posted by Lori Heine on
NDT, what happens here when Christians show up and — gasp! — dare to express their opinions is interesting indeed.
A gang of thuggish little churls runs out, kicking us in the shins and screeching about “superstition.”
When we refuse to back down to them, even more interesting things happen. We are called all sorts of names. I am even accused of being a heterosexual (something that in a million years, I never would have believed).
That’s right, I’m really a closeted, hetero “fundy housewife!” Bwahahahaha!
This whole thing is so amusing (and instructive) that I’m going to have to chronicle it somewhere. I have to. GLBT Christians are always claiming they get looney-tune, hystical responses when they “come out” as Christians. I must lead a very sheltered life, because I had NOOOO idea it could get this weird. Those who experience this strange phenomenon must be assured that they are not alone.
The response here to people merely expressing a minority opinion (something our “community” claims to cherish) is not just weird, but surreal. How bizarre, how bizzare…
We keep advising them to grow up and do something — SOMETHING — even remotely constructive, like seek professional help, and we get — what?
Of course, we get more hysteria. Disjointed rantings about carpet-munching from people whose tinfoil hats are clearly too tight. Threats that we’ll be “dealt with.” (I’m, like, friggin’ scared.)
I only WISH somebody’d try to “deal with me” so they could see how scared I am. Only if they had any guts, they’d try in it person instead of hiding behind a computer.
Okay, kiddies, NDT and I (and any other poor soul lurking out there who reads this and is too appalled to venture a comment) have got it now. You think our faith is silly. Why that is considered relevant to EVERY damn post anybody puts here that even remotely concerns the Christian faith makes no sense — unless these posts are seen as the Rohrschach test that they seem to be.
In other words, let’s just run it up the flagpole, and see who shoots at it:
“@#%&@! superstition! &%#@*)(#$ carpet-muncher! %&$*#@@* Fundy housewife! $%&#*^ ISP number! %#*@&$ DEAL with you! hahahahahaha!”
Here, on the other hand, are some free associations that may, indeed, be constructive:
Tinfoil hat. Too tight. Rubber room. Extended reservation.
Some forms of medication may also prove to be helpful.
Gee, what’s going to happen when GLBT Christians refuse to be run off by head-cases who hate Christianity?
Fasten your seatbelts. You may just find out.
posted by Craig2 on
Queen Elizabeth I was once said to have uttered the words “I am not come to make windows into others souls.”
And that’s fine with me. LGBT Christians are entitled to their beliefs, LGBT nontheists, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Wiccans,
Scientologists and Satanists are entitled to theirs. It’s a free world.
It’s the fundies we don’t like, Lori. Particularly given the grief that they cause members of our community in general, which includes those heroic souls struggling to be ordained as ministers in some denominations or faiths.
posted by Lori Heine on
“It’s the fundies we don’t like, Lori. Particularly given the grief that they cause members of our community in general, which includes those heroic souls struggling to be ordained as ministers in some denominations or faiths.”
Craig, I understand this. What makes you think that I could possibly be unaware of it? As a writer for the GLBT Christian community nationwide and even worldwide, I have received numerous death threats. I have been told, time without number, that I am evil, that I am going to hell, that I am a liar and an irredeemable reprobate of the worst order.
Simply because I, and NDT as well, defend our right to be Christians — the right to exercise the same religious freedom as anyone else — by what leap of irrationality do so many automatically assume we’ve lived our lives under some rock on the dark side of the moon and are therefore unaware that heterosexual fundamentalists can be bastards?
There is more than one possible response to hetero fundamentalist bastardy, however. One response — the road less traveled in the GLBT community, perhaps, but one just as viable — is that of standing on our birthright and claiming Christian faith as our own.
NDT and I simply assert, once again, that this is possible. Several other people, on threads such as this one, have stated that they have alternative religious beliefs. Again, let a thousand flowers bloom. Nobody has attacked their beliefs; the only beliefs that are being attacked — viciously and relentlessly — are those of GLBT Christians.
I am dedicated to the freedom to choose whatever religious faith — or even no religious faith at all. Until GLBT people feel confident of that freedom, we will never achieve equality with straights.
What the enemies of gays want us to do is spend all our time crying over how mean they are. I prefer to fight them. Any reasonable person would think this was a good thing. The insane, howling hatred it brings from some people on this site is at least irrational. At worst, it is dangerous to the very freedom we all seek.
posted by Craig on
Lori I just read and post here occasionally. I have not, however, seen people treating you with “insane, howling hatred.” Perhaps I’ve missed something. On the whole, instead, I’ve seen you engage people who disagree with you in an honest and agreeable way. And for the most part they’ve returned the favor.
I can’t of course say the same for your cohort, ND30, who revels in name calling, and being argumentative and just plain rude. Step back for a minute and read his posts. He’s doing great damage to the cause of Jesus Christ. Jesus told us as Christians to go to all the world and win others with our love. The fundies of course ignore that – they want to browbeat us into submission. Unfortunately, ND wants to do the same thing. Thankfully, you don’t. I hope you will continue your reasonable and thoughtful stance, if for no other reason than to show a few people around here what real Christianity is all about.
posted by Lori Heine on
Thanks, Craig.
I can’t speak for anybody else, but I think ND30 and I are both trying to do the same basic thing. Distilled down to its essence, I think what we’re saying is that we don’t want to define ourselves by the ways that others have hurt us.
If I were to catalogue the damage that’s been done to me, in my life, by arrogant and judgmental fundamentalist straight “Christians,” I would have a very long and angry list. They nearly destroyed my family, they have actually, on more than one occasion jeopardized my physical safety and maybe even my life.
My mother, who passed away this past Monday, found out I was gay in the fog of confusion that was just then overtaking her because of Alzheimer’s. I had to watch her waste away, knowing that the last time she ever consciously knew me she was angry at me — because of something she couldn’t understand. Why couldn’t she understand it? Well, having been told, for years and years, that all gay people were evil probably didn’t help.
When I hear that I supposedly don’t realize that straight fundies can be vicious, cruel and downright stupid, I see it in that context. I can’t help but think…”what the hell?!” There’s no lack of hurt in my own life because of it. As I prepare to bury my mother at the end of this week, believe me, it is very fresh in my mind.
So yes, I do know what you mean when you say that the fundies can be mean. I have simply decided that my faith means too much to me for me to let them rob me of it. To me it makes all the difference in the world whether someone leaves their faith tradition because they choose to, or because they have been forced out by people who hate them.
I intend to go on working to help make sure that the option is there for us to stay in the faith we believe in — whatever that might happen to be. If we allow ourselves to be totally defined by how mean other people are to us, how much they hate us, what they’ve done to us and all the rest, then we have allowed them to destroy us. We have allowed them to rob us of our very selves.
We don’t need to battle with each other to discuss it all, either. I think our enemies win if they can get us to do that.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Lori I just read and post here occasionally. I have not, however, seen people treating you with “insane, howling hatred.” Perhaps I’ve missed something.
Perhaps your alter ego PCT can enlighten you; after all, he was around for this.
Any interest I might have had in concern troll Lori Heinrich is gone….
Will the moderators let us have Lori’s ISP numbers so we can begin to deal with her endless lies and evasions?
And before you ask, it’s simple; you and PCT use the same email addresses.
Keep that in mind; that little tidbit of information becomes more useful at the end of the post.
I can’t of course say the same for your cohort, ND30, who revels in name calling, and being argumentative and just plain rude. Step back for a minute and read his posts. He’s doing great damage to the cause of Jesus Christ. Jesus told us as Christians to go to all the world and win others with our love.
Wedge playing. How I love it.
I make no apologies for what I say in this forum. If Lori likes it, fine; if she doesn’t, also fine. She’s an adult, has read my posts, and is more than capable of making her own decisions.
Meanwhile, PCT/Craig, what I will simply point out is Matthew 10:32 – 39…..and ask you where your willingness to put antireligious bigotry by your fellow gays against Christ and His followers ahead of Christ falls. Christ did indeed tell us to love others, but He also expected us to love Him even more…..which, as He made clear, means sticking up for Him, even when it isn’t popular.
As for the rest…..well, it seems odd that, as you complain about “name calling”, being “argumentative”, or “rude”, you make comments like this. But then again, that’s making the assumption that it’s the behavior, not the target, that really bothers you.
posted by Lori Heine on
Wow, NDT, I had no idea that the same person or people might actually be responsible for comments under different names. Thanks for your detective work on that.
For the record, I do agree with what NDT is saying. It seems that issues of style and substance are being confused here. We may be saying the same thing in different ways, but he and I are basically making the same points.
I guess I should apologize for my levity about “tinfoil hats” and “rubber rooms.” Anybody who posts here under different aliases, posing as different people with different views, is definitely in need of some sort of professional help. I shouldn’t be laughing at them. NDT is right to take it very seriously, and if some people want to call him “rude” because he does, then that is their problem.
That I have been accused here, by someone, of being a liar is, it seems, an example of what the psychologists would call projection. I use the same name for every comment I make, and it is always my own name. I’m not sure how to deal with somebody who has the unmitigated gall to call ME a liar, while at the same time possibly posing, himself (?), as more than one person. And moreover, as separate people who disagree (??!!)
I suppose I’m being unkind, unChristian and just plain politically incorrect by pointing out that that is weird. But I don’t know any other word for it.
I will try to make my point one more time, for whatever the extra effort may be worth. It is a good thing that not all GLBT people leave the church simply because the bigots try to order us out of it. Nobody (at least nobody here) is saying that everybody absolutely has to be a Christian, and no one has said a word against anyone else’s religion or lack of faith. But even if you think we’re stupid to remain Christians, it is better for the entire GLBT community that we remain to fight for full inclusion and to stand up for the truth that gays can be Christians, too.
If you feel the need to call us childish names because we believe what you cannot or will not, that is your problem. But NDT is absolutely right when he says that you are working not for the cause of GLBT inclusion, but against it.
posted by Lori Heine on
After having taken a closer look at the links in NDT’s last post, I don’t know for sure quite what to think.
Are PCT/Craig and Dalea different individuals? I guess so. What is their relation to each other? Who’s who? Who’s on first?
Dalea, if you are trying to claim that I have used an alias in any of these posts, please kindly provide the proof. If I have lied, then spell it out for us. Where, precisely, are the lies? Please quote them.
Distortions, I suppose, are in the eye of the beholder. You can make all the vague (and vaguely-slanderous) claims you want to about my “distortions,” and of course you aren’t going to put forth any concrete examples of them.
If this continues, I may indeed seek legal counsel. I don’t take such accusations lightly.
Then again, Dalea, maybe you can simply dash off a few more little poems about Norse mythology and make us forget all about it.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
“PCT” and “Craig” are, judging by the fact that they use the same email, the same individual. Meanwhile, the same email address as used by PCT/Craig was used in the comment cited in the posting here, so I would gather that they are the same as well.
“Dalea” occasionally adds what I assume is his zip code to his identifier, but he seems to use the same email consistently. I do not believe that PCT and Craig are different identities of “dalea”, nor do I believe that they’re directly related.
That being said, PCT/Craig and others of his ilk enable people like dalea. They combine two ingredients — willingness to speak out against antigay bigotry and wanting to show kindness to other gays — that are fine by themselves, but explosive when mixed.
The problem with organizations like Soulforce and Ex-Gay Watch, as well as people like “Bishop” Gene Robinson, is that they are gay first; Christianity comes second. They freely attack Christians, but say nothing when gays like dalea advocate violent and hateful responses against Christians. Instead of going after people like dalea who harass and try to harm people like you, Lori, who don’t support antireligious bigotry based on sexual orientation, they admonish YOU for provoking and “being hateful”, or try to claim that you’re not really gay.
In short, pleasing Christ always takes a back seat to pleasing Larry Kramer, Matt Foreman, Joe Solmonese, or any other gay person.
posted by Craig on
Gosh 30, what a brilliant individual you are. I thought I was fooling you, but you saw right through me. Wow!!!
As to the rest of your post, what a load of tripe.