A snapshot from the Culture War: Anti-gay Mormon parents sue the Santa Rosa City (Calif.) School District for giving their daughter a written reprimand for using the put-down "That's so gay." The parents, long-time opponents of the school's diversity program, consider the reprimand part of a homosexual agenda.
To be fair, the article suggests the daughter was teased about being a Mormon and that similar reprimands did not follow. That's a problem with diversity initiatives. They can't and shouldn't be neutral (no equal time for the Klan), but letting bureaucrats decide what's acceptable can mean only politically incorrect teasing gets the stick, leaving everyone to compete over who has been more "victimized."
96 Comments for “So Lame.”
posted by Bobby on
Everyone uses “that’s so gay.” I use it. I love South Park and they use it too.
If gays don’t like it, they can fight back, but don’t fuck with the first amendment!
posted by James on
“That’s so gay” means “That’s so fem.” It doesn’t mean “That’s so like the heroism of Sgt. Eric Alva.” or “That’s so like the gay couple next door who are so devoted to each other and their children.”
That’s what gay should mean, but anytime someone suggests that the gay community needs to emphasize traditional behavior and tone down flamboyant behavior, and thus change public attitudes, they get attacked. So gay continues to be lame and fem, when we could be doing better.
posted by Timothy on
Well, no, that’s not what it means. Kids have no reference whatsoever to fem when they say it.
As the girl herself said, it meant “that’s so lame, or stupid.” What it says to the gay kid in the class is, “you are lame and stupid”.
The school did a crackdown on this phrase after two kids were paid the year before to beat of a gay student. And she was not unaware of the rules nor was she ignorant of the insult to gay students. Her family are anti-gay activists and her father had alread lead an anti-gay protest at the school.
posted by Brian Miller on
Suppose someone had said “that’s so Jewish” or “typical Mor(m)on” to her. . . would they be rushing to defend that person’s freedom of speech too?
I doubt it. “Freedom of speech for me but not for thee” is just too common these days.
posted by Tim on
Where does James get his ideas from ?
That’s so gay has nothing to do with fem ! James is fem obsessed.
posted by James on
You’re on break at work, hanging with the guys. One of yous ays the following:
A: “I got great seats for the Knicks game!”
B: “My new F150 gets 3 mpg!”
C: “I could go for some burgers and hot wings!”
D: “That new production of Madame Butterfly simply soars!”
E: “Would you believe it? There was hardwood under that old carpet!”
F: “I find that a dash of capers adds a delightful touch to my shrimp scampi!”
OK, class, to which of the above statements is another guy likely to say, “Oh, that’s so gay!” Think about it. Ready? OK–didja notice that the most effeminate sounding statements are the ones most likely to be considered gay? Do you now see the connection between gay, lame, and fem?
My obsession with gay and fem is my desire for gay to be seen as something else than fem–anything else. I wish people stereotyped gays as lazy, or tasteless, or cheap, or anything else but fem. Ideally, when someone says, “That’s so gay,” I want them to mean, “That’s so lifelong and sexually exclusive” but nobody else seems to want that.
posted by ColoradoPatriot on
Well James, you have the tasteless, cheap and lazy (at least intellectually) parts down pat! Keep fighting the good fight!
posted by Alex on
God help me…I’m going to agree with James (sort of).
When I’ve heard the phrase “That’s so gay…” used it has always been to tag some thing as less than “normal.” Usually something percieved as less than masculine.
But masc/fem perceptions change fairly quickly…Cary Grant and Jimmy Stuart characters of the 30’s & 40’s would be derided today as “They’re so gay.”
“That’s so gay,” I want them to mean, “That’s so lifelong and sexually exclusive” but nobody else seems to want that. The actual phrase you seem to be looking for is “That’s so married…” You have to talk to your legislators about that.
posted by Tim on
James, if you like to cook then you’re not masculine ?
Or if you like Opera ?
I think you have a rather narrow definition of masculinity.
posted by ETJB on
So, then we should just allow people to bully and abuse students and how they don’t show up to school with a semi-automatic?
Teasing, name calling and put downs should not be acceptable in a school. Period. Regardless if its directed at Mormons or gays.
Students dont have to like or agree with each other, but is a little kindess and civility too much to ask for?
posted by Doug Moser on
James,
Maybe you should provide us all with a list of what is masculine and what is feminine so we won’t offend you and other conscientious gays?
posted by James on
OK, I will back down from the masculinity thing for a moment–but I do wish gay meant something other than lame (two syllables, with an accent on the “e”).
I wish that gay was associated with good qualities, so that people would say things like, “Those gays–you can sure trust them to get the job done” or “I just don’t understand how those gays can be so devoted to each other and not want to have sex with anyone else” or “You want me to go volunteer with you at the homeless shelter and later help undocumented workers with their English? Oh, honey, that’s so GAY!”
I am not content to be branded with a set of negative stereotypes which other people, mostly gays, have foisted on the world as the default image of what it means to be gay. I want people to say “That James is so smart and honest and loyal you can just tell he’s gay.”
posted by Ray Eckhart on
Whenever this linguistics discussion on “gay as lame” comes up, I like to link to this Alison Bechdel DTWOF strip from 2001. Enjoy:
http://www.planetout.com/entertainment/comics/dtwof/archive/368.html
posted by Alex on
To be fair, the article suggests the daughter was teased about being a Mormon and that similar reprimands did not follow.
It also said that she didn’t complain about the Mormon baiting and the other students didn’t complain about the “That’s so gay” comment. It really comes off more like a fight between the parents and the school, with her caught in the middle.
posted by Bobby on
What about the word “troll?” Hey, that’s offensive to me, maybe we should ban it!
“Suppose someone had said “that’s so Jewish” or “typical Mor(m)on” to her. . . would they be rushing to defend that person’s freedom of speech too?”
–Yes I would! And REAL libertarians would to.
posted by kittynboi on
“”My obsession with gay and fem is my desire for gay to be seen as something else than fem–anything else. I wish people stereotyped gays as lazy, or tasteless, or cheap, or anything else but fem. “”
Why is being fem worse than being lazy?
posted by alex on
I am not content to be branded with a set of negative stereotypes which other people, mostly gays, have foisted on the world as the default image of what it means to be gay.
You must be the change you wish to see in the world.
Mohandas Gandhi
Don’t just exhort others to accept your values as de facto better…show them. Be a visible and positive example of a better life.
posted by Bobby on
“Teasing, name calling and put downs should not be acceptable in a school. Period.”
–Hey, it’s part of life! I’m 31 and I still get teased and name-called, but now I return the favor. You can’t force people to be nice. Teachers can always have the discretion to send bad kids to detention, but more than that we don’t need.
“but is a little kindess and civility too much to ask for?”
—It has to be taught, not forced. If the students who teased the Mormon got away scott free, then you shouldn’t discipline the mormon. Either you punish all or punish none.
posted by Timothy on
James,
I think you need to look around more. There are a lot of stereotypes that are perceived as “gay” that have nothing to do with being fem.
For a couple examples:
On the rather horrid (but amusing) show Gay, Straight, or Taken last week, the girl trying to distinguish between her dates said something along the lines of “you are too articulate and educated to be a straight guy” (she actually was wrong). A stereotype, but not one of feminenity
Some years back a neighborhood group in San Diego marched in gay pride trying to get gay people to buy into the neighborhood because when gay people move in the property values go up. Again a non-fem stereotype.
And surely you haven’t forgotten the accusations of a gay mafia in the entertainment world that was throwing its weight around and controlling hollywood?
But stereotypes are not what kids are talking about when they say “that’s so gay”. Perhaps you, as an adult, get “gay” confused with lacking in masculinity, but kids are going there at all.
“that’s so gay” applies equally to an uncalled foul in a basketball game, a pair of glasses that are nerdy, too much homework, or a guy and girl making out to obviously. It’s anything that isn’t accepted.
But it’s also used for same-sex attracted kids. And though others may not make the connection, the gay kid does.
I recall from a long time ago when there were phrases that included the n-word that had nothing to do with race. Something done shoddy might be n****r-rigged or brazil nuts were n****r-toes. And I recall hearing, “I’m free, white, and 21 – I can do what I want”.
And honestly I think mostly they weren’t said with the purpose of belittling blacks. But they did, just the same.
And happily those things are no longer part of polite society. I, for one, don’t want to return to that type of language.
And I hope that some day gay kids won’t have an aspect of their identity equated with dump, stupid, or undesireable. And I’m not going to think that they are “too sensitive” or “should get over it” in the mean while.
posted by kittynboi on
“”””Hey, it’s part of life! I’m 31 and I still get teased and name-called, but now I return the favor. You can’t force people to be nice. Teachers can always have the discretion to send bad kids to detention, but more than that we don’t need.
“”””
They’re in school to learn, not to name-call. If they break that rule over and over, come down on them hard.
posted by James on
Still, all the stereotypes you name are negative. No one applies the term “gay” to positive attributes. Gay is always a put-down, and it shouldn’t be like that.
I wish being gay was associated with good, positive things. I wish people said, “Oh, it’s Gay Pride week–that means poor people will get their houses painted and the park will have all the litter picked up!”
Gay people want the positive response of the world, but they are not willing to do the work, IMHO, to earn that positive response. Maybe we shouldn’t have to make an effort, but what’s wrong with making an effort? Why not change our image, not by chanting in the streets, but by doing good things for people? Instead of saying, “Stop calling us lame! Stop calling us gay!” why not live such good, honorable lives that being gay becomes a goal to strive for instead of a term of derision?
It’s like the 30 Rock episode tonight–she didn’t dislike him because he was black, she disliked him because he was a jerk–but he called her a racist anyway. Maybe the reason that society in general doesn’t like the gay community is because, on the whole, with some exceptions, the gay community isn’t very likable. We can accuse them all of being homophobic, but maybe they don’t like us because we’re jerks. We show no interest in any issues that don’t concern us directly, and we don’t clean up after our rallies.
Wanting people to think of you as good without actually having to do anything good–that’s truly lame.
posted by James on
Here’s a quote from a review of the book Crisis in the Village by Robert Franklin, a book which discusses problems in the black community and offers solutions (the review is by Jim Wallis of Sojourners and can be found on the God’s Politics website):
“Last week, I was part of a panel discussion to launch Bob?s new book, Crisis in the Village. It?s one of the best contemporary analyses of the state of Black America I?ve seen. He pulls no punches in describing the crisis, identifying three key institutions in the community and what they now face. It?s a ?crisis of commitment? for the Black family, a ?mission crisis? for the Black church, and a crisis of ?moral purpose? for historically black colleges and universities. Bob calls these the three ?anchor institutions? that ?are the bedrock of civil society.? He cites alarming social indicators which powerfully show how vulnerable the black community still is, especially black children.
But, it is not a book of despair, it?s a strategy for resolving the crisis. The subtitle is ?Restoring Hope in African American Communities,? and that hope is where he focuses. Bob wrote the book, he said ??because I have seen an abundance of books out there that describe the problems of the African American community ? but, there are fewer than you might think that offer practical visions and strategic thinking about how to move forward.? And, he added, the reversal of the crisis ?begins with personal renewal and commitment to community uplift.? ”
I bring this to people’s attention because I think the gay community needs the same kind of book. At some point, the gay community needs some reflection and self-criticism. Without identifying our problems, we can’t see any solutions. If everything wrong is the result of other people’s homophobia, then we will never get anywhere. Here is a book by an African-American who doesn’t blame racism but instead looks at the problems within the black community itself, and then works for solutions. Why can’t we have a gay man write a book that doesn’t blame homophobia?
Why is the gay community so afraid of this kind of self-examination? Why do gays attack anyone who suggest that gays themselves might be the cause some of their own problems, and the solutions to those problems might come from gays being willing to change self-defeating behaviors? If the black community can examine themselves critically, why can’t the gay community?
Are we really that lame?
posted by Randy on
James: . Maybe we shouldn’t have to make an effort, but what’s wrong with making an effort? Why not change our image, not by chanting in the streets, but by doing good things for people?”
You mean like painting houses for poor people and picking up litter in the streets?
Um, lots of gay people do exactly those things. And straights too.
posted by Tim on
According to James we deserve to be discriminated against because we’re fem !
James twists everything around to support his anti-fem agenda.
posted by Alex on
People are moved first and foremost by the people they know, not so much media driven images.
People I know do not think of gay people are “fem” or “sissies.” They do not think we are hedonists chasing the next drugged orgy.
That is, in part, because they know me.
If the people you know think of gay people in those ways than perhaps a good lenten activity would be to examine yourself? How do you demonstrate the kind of upstanding gay man you are?
I have found that many people who make charges that everyone else needs to change (to suit their personal values) are most often gay folks in hiding. “People don’t need to know that I’m gay…they wouldn’t understand.”
Because you’re right: Wanting people to think of you as good without actually having to do anything good–that’s truly lame.
posted by Roy on
-It has to be taught, not forced. If the students who teased the Mormon got away scott free, then you shouldn’t discipline the mormon. Either you punish all or punish none.
I believe the students who teased and harassed the Mormon should have been punished as well.
posted by ETJB on
“I bring this to people’s attention because I think the gay community needs the same kind of book.”
With a handful of gay Republicans as the supreme rulers (“authors”)? Who bodly take time out of barebacking sex, sexually harassing their pages and being hookers to talk to us about the need for traditional morality and patriotism?
Their is already plently of ‘reflection’ and ‘self-criticism’ in the LGBT community. You can find it on the left with people such as Larry Kramer. On the right with people like Andrew Sullivan and on the whatever pays the most with BRuce Bawer. Always has been and always will be. You are blind if you think otherwise.
Most social problems need to be solved with both personal and institutional change. If you ignore one or the other then you are being foolish.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
James said “I want people to say “That James is so smart and honest and loyal you can just tell he’s gay.”
So, in other words you want people to believe straights aren’t smart, honest, or loyal. Once again for you have a double standard for gays and straights. For you to think gays are as good as straights they have to be far better.
James said “all the stereotypes you name are negative.”.
Hello James, is anyone home? The first stereotype he mentioned was of gays being articulate and educated – you call that negative?! As is typical of you you overlook the good in gays to focus on the bad.
The fact is James most people who hate gays do so not because gays aren’t good people but because they’re disgusted by gay sex. Given that it doesn’t matter if you’re fem or masculine, they’re still going to hate you. My cousin bragged about hating gays and being, in his words, very homophobic. When I called him on this he said “Oh, all the gays I’ve known have been really nice people”. To him gays had a positive sterotype, but he just couldn’t get past the sex part.
Gays are also sterotypically warm, kind, nurturing, non-violent and friendly. After I started expressing my femininity I took a trip to Vancouver. When I started going into the shops I was struck by how at ease everyone was with me as compared to before when I was trying to be macho. It was obvious to me that they felt at ease with me and that they could trust me not to shoplift because they believed I was gay. It was the most wonderful feeling in the world.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
And James, its pretty hypocritical of you to keep saying you want people to see gays as you are but to refuse to be out yourself. If you want “gay” to be associated with people like you you have to let people know you’re gay.
posted by GG on
And James, its pretty hypocritical of you to keep saying you want people to see gays as you are but to refuse to be out yourself. If you want “gay” to be associated with people like you you have to let people know you’re gay.
My thoughts exactly.
posted by Brian Miller on
With all the stereotypes flying around, I feel like it’s 1982 all over again.
I’m waiting to turn on the TV and hear “Have you played Atari today?”
posted by James on
I think “coming out” is a scam perpetrated by the gay community to gain power (see previous posts on this topic).
I think “coming out” should be an interaction of mutual vulnerability between men. When another man is ready to tell me where he is on the Kinsey scale, then I’m ready to tell him where I am. Coming out isn’t this:
“Hey world, I’m gay!”
“You are? That’s neat! I’m straight!”
A fully honest disclosure would be more like this:
“I find that I am more strongly attracted to men than women, though I’m enough attracted to women to understand what you like about them.”
“Really? I, too, recognize that I have deep feelings about men which helps me understand your attraction. I can’t imagine acting on those feelings in a sexual way, but I understand where you are coming from.”
See? The world would be healthier if men were honest with each other about their range of feelings rather than dividing themselves into separate categories.
I have had this level of conversation with close friends, family, and people at church. So, I’m “out,” OK? But not in the sense of waving a Rainbow Flag or marching in parades. I am not going to be another Borg-like marcher for the gay agenda.
Because that’s lame.
(P.S. I don’t think men are disgusted by gay sex. Certainly, men aren’t disgusted by lesbian sex. What men are afraid of is that gay sex will make them effeminate. If men saw gay sex as making them better warriors and athletes, like they did in Ancient Greece, they’d be after it like steroids. I think men don’t like gays because men don’t like whiny, annoying, bitchy people.)
posted by thom on
regarding the last post… there are no words.
posted by Timothy on
James,
This may seem harsh or accusatory but please believe that is not my intent. I just offer this as something you may wish to consider.
You seem to have bought into an image of “gay” and nothing that anyone else says will change that impression. And, at the risk of assuming, I think it is because as long as you can claim that “gay” is perceived negatively (and rightly so) it gives you cover and excuse to hide in the closet.
If only “gay” meant “admirable, and masculine, and honorable, and noble” then you’d be willing to accept it as who you are. But sadly, I suspect that there is no association to “gay”, no matter how glowing, that would ever meet your standards. Your security is in a negative image and you aren’t willing to give it up.
We’ve all mentioned a number of assumptions that are made about gay people that are positive. And the image of the gay community becomes shinier every day. I would assert that the majority of educated people in urban areas recognize that gay people are not all effeminate or bitchy – they see them instead as friends, neighbors, co-workers.
This is not to suggest that bitchy annoying gay people don’t exist. They do. But they congregate more at the edges of the community – in the shadows – in the closet. Basically, where you are. If you were living a more integrated life you might find that the guys on the bowling league (where I was last night) or at the church (where I will be Sunday) or even at the clubs are not what you think they are. They are also happy, funny, friendly people who serve on their homeowners association, or the local PTA, or serve meals at the mission on Thanksgiving.
Because the stereotypes you fear are not what America sees when it thinks of “gay”. No, it’s what YOU see.
While you think that coming out is shouting “I’m gay”, that is not the experience of anyone I’ve ever met. And while you fear some borg-like agenda, what I see is people (gay and straight) joining together to damand equality.
Your fears are so present in front of your face that you project them on others like some spot on your glasses. Rather than react to the world, you are reacting to your own fears of what the world is like.
And that is very sad.
I would encourage you to listen to the diversity of voices here on this site and honestly consider if you may not be skewed in your perceptions. I know it might be frightening – but gay people are also strong. We are able to take the emotional risk, step up to honesty, and be willing to chart our course with clarity and forthrightness.
posted by James on
So, you don’t think coming out should involve mutual risk and mutual vulnerability? Coming out should be a unilateral announcement given to everyone, regardless of whether they are asking or not? Also, being out to your friends, family, and church isn’t out enough?
Resistance is futile, girlfriend.
posted by Mary on
“Resistance is futile, girlfriend.”
That “girlfriend” bit is so gay. And very fem.
posted by Doug on
James, James, James,
Coming out is different for everyone. For some, it’s a big deal, for others, it’s no deal at all.
My coming out amounted to this: “I’m gay.” Mother: “I knew that.” “okay.”
There was no drama. And I’ve always been out in the workplace, just as an accepted fact. This is me, this is my husband. Done.
You seem to have created such a negative connotation to all things gay that you’re incapable of seeing past this preconception. Let it go!
If you ask me (and most of the people on this board), you’re the whiney one.
posted by James on
Coming out to your mother is one thing, coming out to a friend is another. Why should coming out be a unilateral event? Why shouldn’t both men have to share the truth about themselves? It seems that true friendship requires the ability to acknowledge and support the range of each other’s feelings. I think that coming out is a process for gays and straights to share, not a process which divides us into categories.
I think if men realized that we are all the same–just on different places on the same spectrum, and not separate, binary categories of “gay” and “straight,” we could get over the “You’re so gay” problem. Then, that would mean, “You’re just like me, just a little to one side of the scale.”
That would mean seeing coming out as a process straights and gays do together–everybody has to come out, everybody has to be honest.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
James said “I think men don’t like gays because men don’t like whiny, annoying, bitchy people.”
James, you’re one of the most whiny, annoying bitchy people I know next to Northdallass. The gays I know don’t fit your negative stereotype at all.
And as to coming out, no one says you have to go around making loud unilateral announcements. Straight people casually make their orientation known all the time when they regularly talk about who they find attractive or that special someone in their life and what they did with them last weekend. If you’re relaxed and honest about your feelings your orientation will come out naturally in conversation as the topic of who your interested in or naturally attracted to arises. Your orientation isn’t something you should be vulnerable about, its something you should just casually accept and discuss when the topic arises just as straight people do – straight people aren’t vulnerable about their orientation, they take it for granted just as you and we all should be able to do.
posted by grendel on
I too am puzzled by James’ attitude toward coming out to someone. It seems so restrictive. Personally, I find I come out to people naturally in the course of ordinary human relations. When a causal acquaintance asks me what my wife does, for example. I figure if it’s an appropriate question for a straight person in the same circumstances, it’s appropriate for me to answer honestly.
I’m not sure why James applies a double standard.
posted by James on
I’ve noticed that when I’ve tried to explain my negative experiences with the gay community, the strategy of some on this board is try to convince me those experiences didn’t happen. The exchange goes something like this:
“I’ve had bad experiences with the gay community.”
“No, you didn’t.”
“Yes, I did.”
“Well, it’s your own fault, then.”
Can you see how this strategy might be ineffective? Let’s see how it works with someone who thinks gays are lame.
“The gays I’ve met have been really lame.”
“No, they haven’t.”
“Yes, they have.”
“Well, that’s because you’re homophobic.”
And that’s basically how the gay community interacts with the world. This board is no exception.
Perhaps a willingness to accept the reality that many people have negative experiences with the gay community, coupled with the desire to address the cause of those experiences, might do more to help the gay community than simply trying to convince the world that the gay community has never done anything wrong.
P.S. Talking about your girlfriends or showing pictures of your wife doesn’t mean you have been completely honest about yourself. Coming out would be “My wife and I sleep in separate beds because neither one of us like sex.” See? You didn’t want to know that–and they don’t want to know about you, either.
posted by Timothy on
James,
I find it odd that you expect validation and acceptance of your experiences but you outright reject anyone who counters with experiences of their own.
Maybe you have had bad experiences. True. But when others say “perhaps that’s because…” or “I’ve found better experiences by…” it might benefit you to listen. Rather than immediately dismiss others, perhaps their experiences can help you grow. We’ve all been where you are, in the closet and holding negative stereotypes dear to our heart. But we grew. You can too.
I also think that you misunderstand “being out”. YOu think of it as “coming out”, a singular event, and for the very first time (and a while after) it is. But at some point it becomes “living out”.
Being out is not an action, but rather it is a “not action”. In other words, when you are hiding you have to make special efforts to filter your discussions, change pronouns (and sometimes names), lie about things, and keep some things secret. It is a constant effort.
And I’m not talking about sex. That isn’t anyone’s business. I’m talking about a date, going golfing with a partner’s father, watching Brothers and Sisters and commenting about who you want Kevin to end up with, having a bad day because of domestic troubles, the really stupid thing some politician said about gay people, why you wouldn’t date the “really nice” guy at church who has ears the size of dinner plates, the picture on your desk at work, and explaining the reason why you avoid the good-intentioned woman who wants to set you up with either her niece or her nephew. It’s not sex, it’s life.
Being out simply means letting go of all the filtering. Rather than expending that energy, it’s simply answering honestly. I remember when I first started being honest with my friends, Debby told me, “I’m so glad you’re gay. I can talk around you now. I was worried you might be just so sexually prudish that we couldn’t be ourselves around you.”
I know you like to treat it as though it’s better and special to be in the closet. It’s more “appropriate”. But the rest of us have lived both in the closet and in honesty. We have life experience to compare the two and, frankly, you do not. So you may convince yourself that the closet is a better place – but you will not convince anyone else.
I have never met, nor heard of, a single person who has experienced both who found the closet to be a better place to live. No one – not even those exposed sensationally or drug out kicking and screaming.
It is legitimate to not want to try something. It’s fine to say “I don’t want to try pistachio icecream, ick.” or “I think sky diving is too frightening”. But comes across rather immature to say “I’ve never tried any other icecream but vanilla is BEST”.
I know you feel left out and like this board and the rest of the gay world are not validating your choices. And that can leave you feeling lonely and hostile.
But we aren’t trying to pick on you. We just will not allow you to tell us that our experiences are invalid or that the freedom of living a life consistently and honestly is a bad choice. Take it as encouragement rather than criticism.
posted by Doug on
Very defensive, James.
We’re not discounting your experience; we’re suggesting, that perhaps you’re allowing others to dictate what you say and do.
I agree, coming out isn’t a black and white event. In some cases, it’s just being who you are and allowing others to see that. And no, it’s not about sex, but about love, attraction, interests, views, and just existing in freedom.
I’m curious how old you are. You seem to be dealing with issues that most people let go of by their late 20s. Most of us in our 30s and beyond are living very full lives without much angst over acceptance of our sexuality or orientation – in any venue. I wish you peace in your life – whatever that may be for you.
posted by James on
And I wonder how old you are, Doug. You sound like a sophomore in college who has just finished his second psychology class and now wants to analyze everyone he meets.
In any case, I stopped switching pronouns years ago. Perhaps a glance at some of my other posts would tell you that my coming out process has been a decision to answer questions honestly, not give out any misleading information, and, when appropriate, share my orientation with men who are willing to share their orientation with me.
So, am I out enough yet? Or do I still have to put on that Rainbow sarong you all sent me?
P.S. I was hoping that coming to this board and being honest about my experience and opinions would be one of those “positive” experiences you all want me to have with the gay community. Can you see how the responses I get here suggest that maybe, just maybe, the gay community is all embracing and tolerant, and that I might have reasons not to like it? Your advice–“We’d accept you as you are if only you’d change” seems a little patronizing. Oh, well, maybe I’ll have better luck at Dudesnude.
posted by grendel on
[sorry I don’t know how to code …]
James said, “In any case, I stopped switching pronouns years ago. Perhaps a glance at some of my other posts would tell you that my coming out process has been a decision to answer questions honestly, not give out any misleading information, and, when appropriate, share my orientation with men who are willing to share their orientation with me.”
It’s that last part I don’t get. The straight world shares their orientation all the time. It’s like it’s anything intimate. I’ll bet, on average, within the first 15 minutes of real conversation with a new person, I’ll get asked about my wife (since I wear a wedding ring). My “orientation” comes out when I answer their question honestly. I don’t have to sing Kumbuya around a campfire with a guy before I can tell him I have a husband and not a wife.
So I guess I just don’t get what you’re going on about. If you’re sharing your life with someone, that person is going to come up fairly often in ordinary casual conversation. On the one hand, you seem to accept this. Yet in the next breath, you’re going on about coming out being reserved for certain intimate conversations.
If, as you say, you are willing to share your orientation with anyone who is willing to share theirs with you, you’re willing to share it with any and every straight person, because I’ve never met a single straight man or woman who didn’t make that fact obvious, directly or indirectly, pretty much constantly.
and, on a slightly different note, I’ve never had a bad experience with the “gay community” just like I’ve never had a bad experience with the “straight community.” Oh, I’ve meet gays and lesbians, singly and in groups, who were dicks, just like I’ve met straight people who were dicks. But I’ve never mistaken my experiences with these individuals or groups for experiences with the gay or straight communities as a whole. In fact, I’ve never even met the “gay community.” It doesn’t exist; it’s a myth. Stop obsessing about it and get on with your life. We’ll all be happier.
posted by James on
So, you think that if a person has a wife or girlfriend, that person is straight? And that he doesn’t have to tell you anything more about himself? How’s your friendship with Pastor Haggard going?
I think perhaps a conversation which went something like this: “Although I chose to get married, I’ve experienced the same strong feelings about men that you have. I decided not to act upon them in a sexual way, and my feelings about women are stronger, but I know where you’re coming from.” I can then say, “I have been involved with women, but my feelings about men are stronger, so I know what you feel about your wife. I just don’t think I can reach that level of intimacy with a woman.”
This kind of mutual coming out requires risk and vulnerability on both sides. Anything less is just a social mask.
Oh, and by the way, there is a gay community, and it is monolithic, and it does have an agenda. Stop being in denial and we’ll all be happier.
posted by grendel on
James said, “Oh, and by the way, there is a gay community, and it is monolithic, and it does have an agenda.”
Perhaps in your imagination, but no where else. There are communities of all sorts in this world, some are even communities of gay people, but there is no single monolithic gay community.
As for the rest, I guess I have a question.
Assume you actually meet a guy and get married one day. What do you say when a relative stranger notices your wedding ring asks you about your wife at a cocktail party?
That’s the kind of coming out I’m talking about. It’s not this revelation of deep personal secrets that you envision. There’s a place for those kind of conversations as well, but if you limit your coming out to those conversations and no others, you’re being less than honest in a great many of your social interactions. If can’t answer perfectly socially acceptable (for straight people) cocktail party questions honestly, you’re still in the closet.
So, how will you answer the question?
posted by James on
I would say, “Dominic and I prefer the term ‘partner’ to describe our lifelong, sexually exclusive relationship.” Even now, when someone asks, I say, “I just haven’t found the right guy.” Honestly, no one asks for additional information. But I’ve decided that anything further than cocktail party conversation is going to be a situation of mutual honesty and disclosure.
As I’ve said in other posts, your denial of the gay community is like men in prison who learn to distinguish themselves by slight differences in shades of orange. To the rest of us, it looks like you are all wearing the same uniform.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
James, your responses are contradictory. If don’t consider it appropriate to reveal you’re gay until you have a conversation of “mutual risk and vulnerability” where heterosexual men reveal they are slightly attracted to men you’re not being out. Being out means you don’t consider letting others to know your orientation to be a matter of risk or vulnerability. Straight people reveal their orientation casually, they don’t feel vulnerable or at risk about it.
And you’re not in a relationship, are you? So your line about “Dominic and I prefer the term ‘partner’ to describe our lifelong, sexually exclusive relationship.” is just another example of you trying to have your cake and eat it too – you want to claim to us you’re out but also claim you don’t reveal that until you have an intimate relationship with a heterosexual.
posted by grendel on
James, ditto what Randi said.
And for what’s worth, I don’t like the word “partner” — but perhaps it’s only for personal reasons. In my line of work, when I introduce an adult male as my partner, people tend to assume business partner, so it only confuses things.
I prefer “spouse” or “husband” since we are legally married.
And James, don’t get your hackles up, I’m not attacking you for your choice. It’s just a comment on my personally preferred term.
posted by PCT on
>I would say, “Dominic and I prefer the term ‘partner’ to describe our lifelong, sexually exclusive relationship.” < Come on James, no one talks like that, certainly not in Omaha.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Let’s take a look at James’s responses again when asked what he would say in cocktail-party chatter (or, to cite grendel directly, “What do you say when a relative stranger notices your wedding ring asks you about your wife at a cocktail party?”).
I would say, “Dominic and I prefer the term ‘partner’ to describe our lifelong, sexually exclusive relationship.”
That tells the questioner three things.
1. I am in a relationship.
2. That relationship is with a man.
3. That man and I have sex.
How, exactly, is this not being out or hiding the fact that you are gay?
Even now, when someone asks, I say, “I just haven’t found the right guy.”
This tells the questioner two things:
1. My “right person” is male.
2. I prefer relationships with men.
Again, how exactly is that NOT revealing your sexual orientation?
What I think James’s error is here in terms of pleasing “real gays” is that he treats his sexual orientation too matter-of-factly, instead of making it clear to everyone that it is the defining aspect of his life and that they should see it as such.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
Northdallass, if he has to wait until he’s in an intimate moment with a man where they both experience risk and vulnerablility before its appropriate for him to talk about it, he’s not treating his orientation matter of factly.
And if I remember correctly “Dominic” is a celebrity fantasy of James’, he’s not in ANY relationship with a man, and he’s just speculating what he might do if he were.
posted by Brian Miller on
Even now, when someone asks, I say, “I just haven’t found the right guy.”
Heavens, I cannot imagine why! 😉
posted by James on
I think you are naive if you think straight people reveal themselves casually. All you know is that they have currently chosen to have a partner of the opposite sex. You don’t know all the details or steps that led to that decision. Both Jack and Ennis were married–were they revealing themselves as straight? Alan Cumming was married. Anne Heche is married. See my point?
Coming out means authentically revealing who you are–not hiding behind a default image based on who you are currently with. “Gay” is as much of a cage as “straight.” You are simply offering the world a predigested image which really has nothing to do with the complexities of your attractions.
The fact that people know I like guys is really irrelevant, so I answer questions honestly. They, nor you, know anything about who I am inside, who I’ve loved, and how it has worked out. I will say I am personally the Emily Dickenson, Henry David Thoreau, Henry James type–the kind that loves deeply from afar. There’s a wonderful song by Joni Mitchell which describes this experience, Two Grey Rooms:
Tomorrow is sunday
Now there’s only one day left to go
Till you walk by
Below my window
The weekends drive me mad
Holidays are oh too sad
’cause you don’t go
Below my window
No one knows i’m here
One day i just disappeared
And i took these two grey rooms up here
With a view
When you walk by
Below my window
You look so youthful
Time has been untruthful
Heaven knows i loved you
30 years ago
Hot days your shirt’s undone
Rainy days you run
Oh and then you fade so fast
Below my window
No one knows i’m here
One day i just disappeared
And i took these two grey rooms up here
With a view
Only when you walk by
Below my window
This is based on a true story of a gay man (whose name escapes me now). I’m not sure why I offer this deeply personal little tidbit up, because I’m sure you all will mock it, but it shows that there are different ways to experience the gay reality. Perhaps sitting in room and looking at someone you love walk by seems sad and pathetic to you–waving a thong in a Pride parade seems sad and pathetic to me. However sad my reality may be, at least it’s authentic. Painful, lonely, but at least not lame.
posted by Brian Miller on
I find the grey pining from afar vision of gayness to be as equally depressing as the 1970s Castro time warp vision of gayness.
Thankfully, gayness isn’t just a simple bucket for those two visions.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
James, I’ve never been in a pride parade, never been to a pride parade and I’m willing to bet the majority of LGBTs haven’t either. You’re making stuff up about what LGBTs are because it makes you feel good to denigrate and hate the boogeyman even though for the most part he doesn’t exist
posted by Newby on
Hi all. I’m new to this site and was wondering if this comments thread is representative of most. Do many threads devolve into a rather silly debate between “James” and the other regulars?
I’d recognized some big names among the bloggers and was hoping the commentary might be a bit more thoughtful. Just trying to gauge whether I should add the site to my list of frequently visited.
posted by James on
It’s interesting because I’ve actually been to a Pride parade, and yet people say I’ve never seen the real gay community. I’ve been to gay bars, I hung out with a primarily gay theatre crowd, I had a friend who reported in detail on the scene in Iowa City and Houston, I’ve read John Rechy’s Numbers–I’ve even met Grace Jones in a disco! At the moment, I am blogging at IGF–what else, exactly, is there to the gay community?
I would really like to meet traditionally masculine gay men in long term relationships–where the heck are they? I’m willing to go wherever they are. I’ve been to the bars in Omaha–nope, not there. I’ve been to the annual rally and parade–nope, not there, either. Is there some secret place, even more secret than the most secret S & M bar where these traditional, monogamous guys hang out? Do I have to knock on a dark plywood door in a building without windows, as I did to get in the gay bars in Minneapolis?
Or do I just have to rent two grey rooms and hope these guys walk by below my window?
posted by James on
Hey, newby, feel free to jump in with your snide, condescending comments!
Maybe I’m one of the big names. As far as you know, I’m Lance Bass!
P.S. I don’t respond to every thread. In fact, I am careful to leave most threads alone. Please look at the number of threads where I don’t post for proof. I can’t help it if the comments pile up on the threads in which I participate.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
Hey Newby, good to see you. I hate to tell you but contrary to what James says many threads involve a silly debate between James and the other regulars, or a debate between the regulars and the troll Northdallass Thirty. Both James and Northdallass are anti-gay gay haters. James like to rant on and on about how he hates fem gays and how fem gays make his life hard by making straight people hate gays. They both like to portray gays with the broadest most negative brush they can.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
James I found love and I’ve never been to a pride parade and I’ve only briefly been in gay bars about five times. I found my love in ordinary day to day interactions just like most straight people do. We were close high school friends at 14 but afraid to tell each other about our sexuality. At a time of crisis when I was 42 I finally told him and he told me and the most wonderful romantic relationship I’ve ever had started. That’s why its important to be open about your sexuality, so the love right under your nose doesn’t pass you by.
If you want to meet people who aren’t into pride parades and gay bars then those aren’t the places to go to meet them. There are gay Christian groups you can meet with and the Metropolitan Community Church where you can go and meet lots of gays like yourself. Don’t come whining here about not meeting anyone when you haven’t pursued those obvious avenues containing many gays like yourself. And rather than Independent Gay Forum, for god’s sakes please go over to Exgay Watch. You’ll find the proprietors and most of the regulars are deeply religious or religion friendly. If you want to be around people like yourself that’s the place for you. I used to be a regular there and never saw you there, shame because you’re much more suited to their sensibilities than I was.
posted by James on
Just for the record, I am not an “anti-gay gay hater.” What you mean by that is that I disagree with you about what being gay means and the best way to express it. I admire gays like Walt Whitman, Herman Melville, Oscar Wilde, Willa Cather, W. H. Auden, etc. etc., and believe they provide better models than the current Pride movement. I’m not sure why it’s so hard to understand why a gay man like me would not like the current gay community.
No, I think I’ll just stick around here at the “Independent Gay” Forum where I can be both independent and gay. Supposedly.
posted by Brian Miller on
I would really like to meet traditionally masculine gay men in long term relationships
Speaking as a traditionally masculine gay man who is single but knows plenty of others in LTRs, I can tell you that most of us — like every other healthy, well adjusted gay man — don’t like to hang around folks who are down on themselves, other people, or gay folks in general.
You attract to yourself those who most resemble how you feel and think. If you think you’re all alone, you’ll be all alone. If you think all gay people are horrendous caricatures of burlesque, that’s what you’ll see.
And the sort of people you want to meet — who you’ve claimed must simply not exist at all — are never going to show up in your life. They’ve all got much better things to do than convince you of their satisfactorily-masculine status. Besides, many of them have friends — or partners — who are more effeminate. . . and they’re not too keen on listening to someone attacking those folk either.
posted by James on
People accuse me of being repetitive, but here’s a little refrain that I keep hearing over and over–
“If you criticize the gay community, there’s something wrong with you.”
Here’s something that will reveal your true understanding of negative stereotypes–when you heard about a video where a 14-year old taught his 2-year old nephew to smoke pot, were you surprised they were black?
Why weren’t you surprised?
What could the black community do to help get rid of negative stereotypes?
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
James said “I think I’ll just stick around here at the “Independent Gay” Forum where I can be both independent and gay”.
Well, then stop bitching that you don’t find like-minded people if you don’t want to go where they are.
James said “when you heard about a video where a 14-year old taught his 2-year old nephew to smoke pot, were you surprised they were black?”
So, you’re a racist too. No, I wasn’t surprised, just as I wouldn’t have been surprised if they had been white, or Latino, or oriental – I don’t associate bad behavior with any particular race.
posted by Brian Miller on
There’s “criticism” and constructive criticism.
The former is a repetitive thing that is effectively a stand-in word for “whining.” Whiners are annoying because they’re unwilling to do anything to change what they’re whining about, and exist primarily to annoy others with their constant impotent complaints. To the extent that they annoy all around them, they then can continue their victimhood schtick when the rest of the universe gets annoyed with their boorishness — thereby “proving” how “oppressed and alone” they are.
Constructive criticism involves being your own person, holding your own point of view, and taking steps to improve the situation that you’re confronting.
I class most of your posts, James, in the former category. A challenge to you — prove me wrong by doing something other than whining that every gay man other than yourself is “not what he should be.”
posted by James on
OK, here’s what I’m doing–I’m currently on the vestry at my church. I am working to make a safe, spiritual place for gays to worship, and also get support for the search for a lifelong, sexually exclusive relationship. I want a place where gays and straights exist on a continuum–not “a special church for special people” but a place where everybody brings themselves before God as equally created in God’s image.
What are you doing?
P.S. OK, Randi, you’re walking down a lonely, dark street. You see three hooded figures headed toward you. Would you prefer them to be
A. Black? or
B. Nuns?
According to you, if you answer B, you are racist. But I bet, in your heart, you would be relieved to discover they are nuns. So don’t get holier-than-thou with me, you closet racist.
posted by PCT on
Good for you, James, seriously, for the work you’re doing in your church.
May I recommend an article for you? http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/03/faggots.html
Note especially the fifth paragraph. Sullivan as usual says it so much better than I can.
posted by James on
I, too, find that Andrew Sullivan says things better than I can. He is a model for me of a gay man who promotes traditional values and orthodox faith. Here’s a quote from the article you suggested:
“Secondly, gay men are not all effeminate. In the last couple of weeks, we have seen a leading NBA player and a Marine come out to tell their stories. I’d like to hear Coulter tell Amaechi and Alva that they are sissies and wusses. A man in uniform who just lost a leg for his country is a sissy? The first American serviceman to be wounded in Iraq is a wuss? What Coulter did, in her callow, empty way, was to accuse John Edwards of not being a real man. To do so, she asserted that gay men are not real men either. The emasculation of men in minority groups is an ancient trope of the vilest bigotry. Why was it wrong, after all, for white men to call African-American men “boys”? Because it robbed them of the dignity of their masculinity. And that’s what Coulter did last Friday to gays. She said – and conservatives applauded – that I and so many others are not men. We are men, Ann.”
Or, as I, James, would say it:
Gay is not fem.
Gay is not fem.
Gay is not fem.
We need to remind the world that we are men first, and proud of our masculinity. We need to make the word “gay” mean loyalty, integrity, maturity, responsibility, faithfulness, and strength–and I’m glad Andrew Sullivan is out there saying that.
posted by Marcus on
James, you can’t be serious. Black or Nuns? First, I guess I’ll have to assume that the nuns can’t be Black. Second, you’ve set up a false dichotomy…gang members or nuns might have been a better choice. Of course, that wouldn’t have revealed your seemingly unrecognized fear and disgust of all things different from you.
To answer your first question, I was also not surprised that the 14 year olds were Black. But as stated by Randi, I wouldn’t have been surprised if they had been White, Latino, Asian, Purple, etc. Their race is irrelevant. What was unsettling, but not surprising, was the fact that two 14 year old boys were teaching a toddler to smoke pot. Period.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
James, if the blacks were female it wouldn’t matter to me which group I encountered as I find men in general threatening and women not. If I was walking down a dark alley and saw several figures who might be black male police officers or white males with crosses and Jesus tattoos I’d be a lot happier to meet the blacks.
And gay can be fem just as much as it can be masculine. I’d trust someone who is fem (or female) long before I’d trust someone who is masculine or male. Fem means loyalty, integrity, maturity, responsibility, faithfulness, and strength (of character if not physique). Its normally men who are violent, bullies, reckless, irresponsible, sex obsessed, domineering, etc. The last thing I’d want to be is a masculine male.
posted by Brian Miller on
I’m currently on the vestry at my church. I am working to make a safe, spiritual place for gays to worship, and also get support for the search for a lifelong, sexually exclusive relationship
Which is fine — although, if it’s like most churches, it’s homophobic.
I prefer to live in a real-word environment, free of mythology, and seek to improve my own life and those of others through just living and letting live — honestly and openly.
To each his own.
posted by Timothy on
James,
I have a few final comments and then I’ll let this thread be. I sincerely hope you listen to see if you can find any agreement with my comments rather than look for areas with which to argue.
First, if you are looking for a specific type of people, you have to look where they are. Those who are in committed relationships are probably not going to be found in a bar. If you look there and don’t see them, it has little to do with them… it’s the fault of where you are looking.
I’d recommend the following: a gay bowling league, softball league, runners or cyclers group, or other sports or outdoors organizations. Also, couples often times associate socially with other couples. You may find a couple in a gay friendly church that will introduce you to other couples that can model for you these relationships that you seem unable to find.
Second, you will see what you go looking for. Go to the mall some day and tell yourself you are looking for fat women in a green top with ugly sandals. If you start looking, it will soon seem like nearly everyone there fits that description. But if you didn’t go with that attitude in mind, you would never even see any fat women in green tops with ugly sandals.
I think that perhaps you view other gay people through the lens of pre-conception. You go expecting to see stereotypical effeminate behavior and so that is all you see.
I do know that your description of “the gay community” does not appear to much reflect what I’ve seen. I’ve personally been to many gay pride events – from LA and NY to Fresno and Simi Valley – and I’ve yet to see anyone wave a thong. I have seen some people dressed inappropriately (to my thinking) and some who were more effeminate or stereotypical than you would like, but the vast overwhelming majority of people I’ve seen a gay pride events are just regular folk. In Los Angeles, for example, each year the largest contingent is men and women in jeans and tshirts carrying signs to show what Episcopal Church they attend.
Maybe you can’t accept gay people being “average” or “regular” and instead only can allow some S&M fantasy type of guy. That isn’t reality and, frankly, it’s more than a little disturbing if that is what you think the community should be. I would argue strongly against gay people adopting some image based on self-degradation and the eroticism of pain and humiliation.
But if you are wanting normal… that’s what is there in abundance.
Third, some people find an insistence on gender conformity to be less a reflection of a flaw in gay society and perhaps more of a reflection of ones own insecurities. Obsession often is a mask for inadequacy.
Personally, I don’t worry that much about it. I know who I am, I know what I like, and I don’t need for others to change in order for me to be secure.
I’m not saying this is an issue of yours, but by focusing so much attention on your dislike of less-masculine people, it may give others reason to think that you have significant insecurities about your own worth as a man.
Finally, I think perhaps you should go back and review some of your comments. I know that you dislike bitchiness and cattiness that you think are a hallmark of homosexuality. But I think that both may be present in some of your comments.
Perhaps it was not intentional. But that may well be true also of others who have been bitchy or catty and to whom you object.
I hope you don’t take this as an insult or attack. But you may possibly want to at least consider privately to yourself whether there may be something here that could carry some grain of truth and which might be of personal benefit.
posted by James on
I will give your post the same consideration you give mine. I will assume that you are an intelligent, articulate person who is sharing from his experience for the purpose of helping others if you will assume the same about me.
posted by thom on
I’m tired of James running down gays. In a completely unexpected way, his constant anti-gay mantras has caused me to appreciate gays — especially integrated gays — even more.
Take Timothy’s posts, for example. I once started to write a post that tried to “reach out” to James, but my anger bested my good intentions. But not Timothy. He, I believe, genuinely tried through his posts to help James through a difficult place in his life. Would you see someone reach across a political divide in another context? I think not. I attribute Timothy’s ability to have empathy — even in the face of insulting generalizations — to being gay. Timothy’s posts make me proud to be gay.
The same goes for Randi. I believe that Randi is a lesbian (but I’m not sure). Lesbians often find themselves in the awkward place of having to defend the promiscuity of gay men. But they do it, even though their lifestyles rarely reflect the “sex and go” lifestyle of many twenty-something gay men. In my opinion, gay men often fail to appreciate how much we owe to lesbians, for their commitment and personal strength in trying to make the world better for all homosexuals. I am likewise happy to be gay with Randi (although I wish that Randi, like others, would avoid name-calling in this forum).
I even respect North Dallas Thirty, who in my opinion is mired in extreme partisanship (leading to much too much name-calling). To me, he seems fully integrated as a gay man. He’s intelligent, conservative, Republican, and Christian — and gay. He’s determined to defend his viewpoints. In many ways, he’s like James. However, I believe he comfortable in his own skin as a gay man; and James is not. He seems to understand that the gay community has others like him, and is not monolithic.
James, I believe is at a crossroads. He thinks he’s gay, but simultaneously feels that he doesn’t belong in the gay community, which he characterizes as 100% fem (despite the presence of people like Andrew Sullivan and himself). He rejects the “homosexual agenda,” because it’s at odds with his Christian views. He wonders if he can truly be gay and Christian at the same time. He’s pondered if “reparative therapy” is for him.
I believe (and I may be wrong) that James is in the Midwest. Having grown up in the Midwest, and having felt many of the things James feels, I think I understand his feelings. I too had issues with “flaming queens,” and wrestled with religious issues as well. When I was struggling to come out, the “gay community” was something I felt I could not relate to. I, however, have an open mind and am not comfortable stereotyping an entire community. I was lucky to meet “butch” gay men, who helped me realize that not everyone in the community is fem. Those men helped me get over my fears, and slowly move out of the closet. Later, I met and was stalked by a tranvestite — and much to my surprise, realized that he/she too was a good person, deserving of kindness and respect. I came to realize that all of us have a place in our community. James is clearly not there yet.
Despite my kum-bay-yah-ness about gays, I pose the following question: should we as community welcome with open arms those would-be gay men would criticize and condemn other gays, because they act too much like “faggots” and “sissies”?
posted by PCT on
Well said thom. Better than I could have said it. I too grew up not too far from Omaha, in a VERY rural area. As late as my college years, I felt that if I ever acted on my same sex attractions I would automatically end up effeminate. Because of that irrational fear, it took me forever to actually face up to the fact that I’m gay. So I too have been a little sympathetic to James’ comments.
I’ve come to understand the other side of the issue though. That is that guys who are naturally effeminate are much more courageous than I am. Effeminate guys are the butt of constant jokes, taunting, etc. I miss most of that because I would pass anywhere for a totally straight guy. To choose to live your life openly and in tune with who you are as a fem guy takes a lot more courage, every day, than anything I’ve had to do.
posted by James on
And I’m just as sympathetic to you guys–for your inability to deal with the reality that exists. And also your inability to discern chosen behavior and an innate orientaion. And also your complete misunderstanding of the Midwest–but thank you for the rehash of the negative stereotypes.
Your complete inability to grasp that someone might actually disagree with you is constantly amazing. You are like the worst fundamentalist Christians arguing for intelligent design–you simply can’t grasp that what seems so obvious to you isn’t obvious to the world’s scientists. So you have to assume that those who disagree with you are crazy, immature, and demonic.
When, in fact, they just might be smarter than you.
posted by ColoradoPatriot on
James: “And also your complete misunderstanding of the Midwest–but thank you for the rehash of the negative stereotypes.”
Do you not see the irony of coming to this board and sliming your fellow gay brothers and sisters and then turning around to complain about “Midwest” stereotypes, James?
James: “When, in fact, they just might be smarter than you.”
Typical self-righteous bullshit from James. This isn’t about who’s “smarter” than who. Get a grip.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
Thom, thankyou for your kind words – that’s a big improvement from when you said that I was as bad as Northdallass, I couldn’t have been more insulted.
I am a male to female transexual. I am attracted to women as well as men so I relate more to lesbians than gay men.
I know one gay man who is into random sex, but the rest are monogamous. Unlike men I don’t have much of a sex drive to speak of and neither does my boyfriend. Sex is a pretty rare event for us, our love is romantic, but mostly platonic. I hate to call it that as it seems to diminish the wonderful warm relationship we have – I feel like it should be deeply sexual as well, but it isn’t. Nevertheless, there’s no one I’d rather be with.
I feel sorry for James, he seems trapped in his need to fight against what he wrongly perceives to be a monolithic gay community. Trapped in such a way as to prevent him from focusing on finding someone to love – he doesn’t want to go to the MCC or Exgaywatch to find like-minded people, he prefers to avoid like-minded people to berate those of us he sees as different.
As to Northdallass, I’ll stop calling him Northdallass, when he apologizes for lying and saying I demand public sex, that I tear down normal and married couples as “stepford wives” and that I have sex partnerS. I can’t imagine having any respect for someone who habitually lies. His vitriol and attacks on the gay community make it very hard for me to believe he’s actually gay. I think he’s just another anti-gay religious conservative who thinks his gay-bashing has more credibility if he falsely claims to be gay.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
James said “you have to assume that those who disagree with you are crazy, immature, and demonic. When, in fact, they just might be smarter than you.”
James, if you were so smart and mature you’d be trying to meet your need to find love instead of looking for fights with people in the gay community. Is your need to bash gays stronger than your need to find your one true love, or are you simply not smart or mature enough to pursue your greatest need? You don’t have to stop coming here to check out the like minded people at exgaywatch or Metropolitan Community Church, or the gay groups someone else mentioned earlier in this thread. If you keep putting hate ahead of love, who do you think is going to end up getting hurt more, you, or the huge group of people you indiscriminately cast aspersions at?
posted by James on
Speaking to gays, if this board is any example, is like speaking to fundamentalists and saying they might want to consider believing in evolution. They simply stop their ears against such blasphemy. People such as Randi are exactly like the fundamentalists I knew when I starting thinking that maybe Genesis was a story. Thom is like the gentle fundamentalist who sweetly tries to persuade me from my backsliding ways.
None of you apparently wants me to trust my own experience and make my own judgments. Like fundamentalists, you want me to undergo the necessary “reparative therapy” so I no longer have those troubling feelings that all is not quite right with the gay community. “Distrust your feelings, abandon your instincts, and join us!” Maybe, like a bizarro Pastor Haggard, I can become “100% Rainbow.”
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
James, I have the most wonderful loving committed relationship in he whole world. I don’t drink, do drugs, I don’t go to gay bars or pride parades. That’s what you keep claiming you want, so why don’t you join me?
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
Oops, that should have said I don’t drink OR do drugs. Sorry for any confusion.
posted by James on
I don’t particularly want to “join” anyone. I want to be true to my experiences and my feelings. I want to decide the sort of people I like to be around, and be free to avoid those I don’t like to be around. But the gay community is like fundamentalism in that it demands too much conformity as a price for community. It’s not worth it to me to sell out my identity for some feeble acceptance.
posted by PCT on
So why then are you so agitated all the time James?
You were evidently offended that I referred to the midwest as rural. Trust me, I grew up in southern Iowa, i know “rural”. But your reaction says a lot – rural isn’t bad, so why the complaining about stereotypes? As soon as we’re able, my guy and I are moving back there. So why were you offended? And who is stopping you from choosing the people you want to be around, and avoiding those you don’t like to be around?
Oh yeah, I forgot, the monolithic gay “community” – if only we would just agree with all of your pronouncements, everything would be wonderful.
Sorry, my friend, but the world doesn’t work that way. You’ll find that, in general, no one much cares what you think. That’s not criticism of your ideas, it’s just a fact of life. The sooner you let go of your pride a little, and realize that the world doesn’t revolve around James, the sooner you can escape that grey room.
Randi, I am proud of you – what little I know about you – I am amazed at the integrity and honesty with which you live your life. You’re a much braver person than I am – I admire your courage, and wish that I knew you personally. May God bless you.
posted by James on
OK, this is getting tiring, but one more time–I think you should save your advice for someone who cares about your opinion. Or, better yet, take that advice and give it to yourself. Remember, when you’re pointing your finger at someone else, there are three fingers pointing back at you. 😉
I’m glad I’ve given you the pleasure of assessing my personality defects, and I hope it doesn’t spoil your pleasure to know that I don’t care. In fact, I am laughing at the insane predictability of your response.
I only wish I’d had the courage to be this honest to the infantile gays I’ve been around all my life. It feels good to speak the truth to power, even if the power just doesn’t get it.
And, with that, I’m going to wrap up my comments on this thread.
posted by Pat on
James,
Just want to say you have received sage advice from most of the posters here, and I want to add my two cents.
The saying accepting the things you can’t change and changing the things you can is apropos here.
You cannot change the fact that you are gay, no matter how much you think you can. Sorry, the reparative therapy garbage does not work, and even the people who provide the service most likely know it too. The best you could hope for is a life of misery, conflict, and lies if you try it, if you haven’t already. Like many posters here, I have been through what you’ve been through (although it never mattered to me how other gay persons expressed themselves). Once I was able to get rid of the victimhood crap and not only accept being gay, but happily embrace it and wouldn’t have it any other way, the miseries and conflicts went away. Then the dates started coming. Trust me, I’m not a candidate for GQ or anything like that.
The other thing you cannot change, at least not to your satisfaction, is the attitudes and “masculinity” of the gay community. You have some criticisms about it, and that’s fair enough. So do I. But the community is not a monolith as you would like to think. Even some of my liberal friends don’t like some of the perceived extremism of the community. Further many are only attracted to “masculine” men, and wish like you, and that more of the mainstream images of homosexuality were out there. But one can do that without disparaging others that aren’t exactly to our liking, and accept the differences in the gay community. Most of us do have qualms with aspects of the gay community, and maybe in time, these things can change. But we all realized that it is unnecessary, to wait for these things to be ourselves.
As people have said, you don’t have to have a news conference or a parade to announce you are gay. You can just mention it as a casual response to a conversation like straight people do ALL the time. Why do you need to hear from straight people that they have attractions to men? I’m sure some do, but what difference does it make? Why do you need that kind of validation? At some point, any validation must come from you. God already does, and now it’s your turn.
The things that you can change include the attitude toward yourself and for others. This does not mean by any stretch of the imagination that you have to be like the majority of gay people. In fact, on this thread alone, there is a diversity of personalities and ideologies represented here. But the one thing we have in common is our acceptance of ourselves. We were able to do that despite any qualms we have about the gay community. Nobody waited until the gay community’s attitude changed to our exact specifications.
It seems like you’re stuck in this mindset of having to be right and miserable at the same time. I’m not sure what you have to gain from that. I think you have to honestly ask yourself what you are looking from the posters here. Do you want acceptance of your current status? You got it. No problem. We all have the right to continue to play the victim card and to dwell in misery. But I don’t think that’s what you want. If you are asking for the impossible, and ask the gay community to conform for you? Sorry, that’s not going to happen, even if we wanted it to. So the only thing left is you. You are the one that’s going to have to invite the change. You are the one that’s going to have to decide to shed the victimhood, and that you can be right and happy at the same time. You are going to have to be the one to be true to yourself, and not depend on other men to be “masculine” for you, or validation from straight men that they have same sex desires.
It’s a shame that you have been stuck in this point in your life for three or four years (or longer). No armchair psychology. I actually know this for a fact (yep, I do). You’re not in your 30s any more, and you’re not getting any younger. So get going! Good luck and peace.
posted by thom on
Very well said, Pat. But alas, I fear you’re wasting your time. James is certain that the gay community is monolithic, and that “it” demands that he be fem in order for him to get our secret membership card. Like a fundamentalist, his certainty of opinion is unshakable. Indeed, now he believes that any one who doesn’t agree with him is just not as smart as he is. There’s no point in trying to reach out to him.
posted by thom on
Thom, thanks, I appreciate it. It may be a waste as you said. He is using an excuse to not move on and going to great lengths to justify it, and I think that’s the key here. And as I hinted, I reached out to him about 3-4 years ago on another website. I thought it was worth one more shot. Even if it doesn’t work, then maybe it will be a help to others who come here who are in a similar situation, but are really willing to change and jumpstart their life.
posted by Pat on
Oops, the last post was from me, not thom.
posted by Randi Schimnosky on
Thanks PCT, I don’t know what to say, I am honoured by your words.
posted by grendel on
great post Pat. I admire you and everyone else who has reached out to James. You have returned insult and disdain with compassion and understanding. It’s more than I could do.
I will say this tough;
James, I actually identify with you from time to time. You reminds me of myself a very very long time ago. I’m in a much happier place now. I hope you find your way too.
Though I certainly too old for you, and already taken, and probably never was attractive for you, I am proof these men you say don’t exist do. I grew up doing ranch work, and worked as a professional hunting guide for a couple years out of college. I even used to belong to the NRA. My republican bone fides were good enough to myself appointed by a (moderate) republican governor to a partisan office. And yet, to you, I am apparently just another identical cog in a monolithic gay community that is 100% liberal and 100% fem. Not that there is anything wrong with being either – people should be who they are.
I read a cheesy little book once called something like Life’s Little Instruction Book. I only remember a couple of things from it, but one seems appropriate here: Life presents us with a series of lessons. We repeat each lesson until we get it right. maybe something to think about.
good luck
posted by James on
OK, one more post. And this is actually a nice one.
I appreciate your comments. I actually agree that the gay community is much more diverse than I paint it. I also agree that there are a lot of the kind of guys I find attractive out there. (For instance, I’m having a lot of fun looking at the pictures at Realjock and well, ahem, dudesnude–but only the ones with face pictures!).
I am working through anger based on my earlier experiences where I didn’t have any choices–I had to dress like David Bowie, dance to Grace Jones, and that was it. My initial contact with the gay world was very much the monolithic one I describe, and I hated it. But I couldn’t do anything, because there were no other options available to me.
I got so sick of the drugs and prostitution and occult that I became a Christian. What was offered to me as a Christian was the “reparative therapy” paradigm. I was completely open with the Christians around me about my orientation, and they were more than happy to support me in my celibacy. I remained in this paradigm until a few years ago.
There weren’t any other religious options available during those years. It’s only been lately that a gay theology has gone mainstream and biblical scholars I trust have opened up ways for me to read the Bible in a way which supports gay marriage.
So it’s only been in the last few years I’ve been able to find a different way of being gay–a way which blends traditional masculinity with orthodox faith.
For me to do that, I have to get angry at all that I’ve been through before. I want to draw clear boundaries between me and Rainbow World because that’s not where I belong, and if I’m not clear about that, then I’ll fall back into those old habits. I also have to draw lines around fundamentalism because I don’t want to fall back into my safe celibacy.
I currently have a church which supports me in my quest for a partner. I’m also seeing ways of finding that partner, a lot of which is coming from people here.
So, thanks.
But remember that it’s OK for guys to be extremely angry at the gay community. Many gay men who just want to live normal lives have found the gay world a toxic place. It takes work to move through the various layers of Rainbow World to find that part of the gay community where you fit. The journey can be frustrating, and gays are not always helpful and friendly–believe it or not, they can exploit weakness and use people for their own ends.
I am going to try to find guys I like in the gay world. It would be fun to watch Prison Break with people who also can’t follow the story but still tune in every week. But in order for me to begin a new phase, I have to get mad at the old phase, which is probably not that unusual.
To be honest, I think I’ve actually expressed all my anger. I’ve kind of run out of things to be mad at. I’ll try to be less repetitive.
This is a mostly positive post, I think. It’s as positive as I feel right now. Thanks again.
posted by ColoradoPatriot on
Great post James, good luck on finding the right path in life. I apologize for the unkind things I’ve posted here in response to your statements. God Bless.
posted by Marcus on
James – well said. Good luck.