Over at Slate's Kausfiles, there's a transcript from MSNBC with New Republic editor Peter Beinart debating Ann Coulter over her contention that gay men are inherently more promiscuous than straight men. Coulter says, in passing, "I like gays. I like all gays, and not just the ones who are Ann Coulter drag queens." See, reaching out across party lines works! [Irony alert ;-)]
Right Side of the Rainbow offers his thoughts, noting that:
the people who say gay men are inherently more promiscuous than straight men are usually the same people who say gay men aren't inherently gay. Are we supposed to think that gay men are inherently homosexually promiscuous, but they're not inherently homosexual?
Andrew Sullivan also weighs in:
For bigots, the testosterone problem that is universal among men is somehow inherently-and not just circumstantially-unique to gays. Every discomforting aspect about human nature, in the bigot's mind, becomes associated with a minority they already despise. For Gibson, war is about the Jews. For Kaus and Coulter, promiscuity is about the gays.
32 Comments for “A ‘Guy’ Thing, Not a ‘Gay’ Thing?”
posted by Bobby on
Straight men aren’t more promiscous solely for lack of opportunity.
After all, abortion helps straight men to have help with women without risking an unwanted pregnancy, unwanted child support, unwanted marriage, unless the woman does decide to have the baby.
However, I don’t see testosterone as a problem, there are women who are just as promiscuous as men. It’s about lifestyle choices. There was a time I was insecure and needed to sleep with beautiful people to feel beautiful. Those days are over and now I see sex as a gift I shouldn’t be giving away to any dude. They have to earn it now!
I now find getting a second date is more exciting than sex. A freaking miracle in my life 🙂
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
Straight men aren’t more promiscous solely for lack of opportunity.
You’re joking, right?
Straight men are hugely promiscuous — including married straight men. Over 60% of straight married men have cheated sometime during their marriage, and for many, many, many straight men, it’s a pattern.
The issue isn’t that gay men are more promiscuous — it’s that promiscuous gay men are more likely to be honest about their activities than promiscuous heterosexual men (especially married men).
As for Coulter, she’s single and in her 40s — something tells me she’s not in much of a position of experience in talking about the sexual habits of any men.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Over 60% of straight married men have cheated sometime during their marriage, and for many, many, many straight men, it’s a pattern.
Actually:
The National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago published a survey this year with this finding: 12 percent of women cheat, while 22 percent of men cheat.
Then later:
CHEATING MYTHS:
Once a cheater, always a cheater
There is such a thing as the serial cheater, the person who for their own psychological problems (can?t stand to be intimate) needs to keep moving from partner to partner, but this is more the exception than the rule. Most either cheat for long periods of time, or one night stands, but not repetitively.
The simple fact of the matter is that gay men are more promiscuous than straight, mainly because gay culture both actively accepts and promotes promiscuity, as well as condemning restrictions on sex. There’s a reason that AIDS spread as rapidly as it did in our community and why it still continues to be a problem.
Now, we can either acknowledge that directly and deal with it, or we can try to spin it away and point fingers at heterosexuals, which only accentuates the problem and makes us look like liars and fools.
posted by Randy R. on
Let’s not forget what we all learned in Psyche 101: People will attribute their own fears and anxieties onto others. Afraid of sex? Then believe that gays have sex, and way too much of it. Envious of power? Assume that the jews control the world (or the tri-lateral commission, or the Vatican, whatever) and hate them for having the power you think they have, and that you don’t have it.
Find any person’s obsession, and you will find their greatess weaknessess.
posted by Br. Katana of Reasoned Discussion on
I thought is was a demonstrated basic biological imperative for males to “spread their genetic material” as widely as possible. If straight men are less promiscuous (which I won’t concede for a moment) it’s not for lack of desire or opportunity.
Too, today’s culture generally glorifies that kind of behavior. Human beings can, if they want to, overcome bio-imperatives. It’s a questions of “Do we want to?”
posted by Bobby on
Hey Northeast Libertarian,
Just because Ann Coulter is single and 40 doesn’t mean she doesn’t know about sex. I thought liberals (or in your case, libertarians) where supposed to respect people’s lifestyle choices. You have no way of knowing if she’s having sex or not. Besides, as the feminist I suspect you are, you must remember that a woman doesn’t need a man to fulfill her. Damn, I’m sounding like such a liberal, but it’s true.
Moving on…
“Northeast Libertarian”
“Straight men aren’t more promiscous solely for lack of opportunity.
You’re joking, right?”
—I’m not jocking, go to a straight bathhouse (if you can find one) and it’s 60% to 70% men, 40% to 30% women, and only a few people are having sex. Gays on the other hand are experts when it comes to finding sex. They do it in bathrooms, public parks, beaches, glory holes at gay bars, s/m clubs, bathhouses, hotels that have been rented for a sex party, through the internet, etc, etc, etc.
While a straight man has to impress a woman with his personality before she lets him get into her pants. All a gay man has to do is send a penis picture, or a full body picture, or a head and shoulders, maybe a medium shot, or say he looks at certain way.
Check out the men looking for men section in Craighlist and compare it to men looking for women and women looking for men.
Most of the ads come from gays. Even when a straight man finds a woman online, he has to talk to her for weeks before getting a first date.
In the gay community, I can get a date in 15 minutes or less if I want to. Believe me, I used to be an expert on online dating.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
The simple fact of the matter is that gay men are more promiscuous than straight, mainly because gay culture both actively accepts and promotes promiscuity, as well as condemning restrictions on sex
What do you know about the gay community? You’re not gay.
posted by Bobby on
How do you know North Dallas Thirty isn’t gay? He’s just a gay conservative, nothing wrong with that!
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
His talking about “gays” as though they’re others, rather than himself, gives the game away rather handily.
posted by kittynboi on
“”””Just because Ann Coulter is single and 40 doesn’t mean she doesn’t know about sex. “”””
She doesn’t know about sex because no one would want to have sex with her. There’s this taboo in our society against bestiality.
http://toucanfiles.blogspot.com
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Don’t worry, Bobby; NL’s latest attempt to refute arguments is claiming that people who don’t line up with his beliefs “aren’t gay”.
Classic example of the gay leftist who is afraid of diverse opinion and reverts to stereotypes and prejudices to cope with it.
posted by kittynboi on
I don\\’t think Libertarians are leftists.
posted by Bobby on
Point taken North Dallas. Thanks for being here!
Kittynboi, there are many types of libertarians, I’ve even met pro-life libertarians, anti-death penalty libertarians, etc. There’s a libertarian test online and few people score 100%. Perhaps Northeast Libertarian should make a list of issues and causes and say whether he supports or opposes each one.
“She doesn’t know about sex because no one would want to have sex with her. There’s this taboo in our society against bestiality.”
—I think she’s a very beautiful woman, and this is coming from a guy that never looks at women, but if I was straight I’d would do her. She reminds me of Scarlett O’Hara, Judy Garland, Bette Davis, and many other strong heroic women. Any straight man that gets her is a lucky man indeed.
“His talking about “gays” as though they’re others, rather than himself, gives the game away rather handily.”
—Northeast, when you’re a conservative in the gay community, you do feel that gays are “others.”
The thing that North Dallas doesn’t do is talk about his sex life/love life and personal stuff. That doesn’t mean he’s not gay, that means he keeps those maters to himself, which is his right.
posted by dalea on
One of the senses of ‘promiscuity’ is that there is no differentiating qualities; one simply takes what is available. A ‘promiscuous’ person in this sense of the word would have sex with each and every available partner to the point of satiation. On these grounds, clearly gay men are less promiscuous than straight men. This is simply because gay men have more opportunities: a gay guy who has 500 chances a year for sex and accepts 200 of them is being finickly: he rejects 60% of his potential partners. A straight guy who has one offer a year and takes it is at 100%.
I feel that percentage is a more meaningful criteria than absolute number. Gay men, in my very humble experience, tend to be somewhat fussy about bed partners. Too tall/ short/ thin/ heavy/ hairy/ bearded/ smooth/ on and on. Again, in MHE, faced with a potential pool of 100 men, every gay man will automatically reject 80 of them apriori.
To my mind the determining answer to this question revolves around ‘pay for play’. There are obviously a lot more women prostitues than there are male ones. And these whores are found everywhere. While gay hustlers are a more rarified group, not found on small city streets.
Soooo, if one group can only get sex by paying, it strikes me that this group is approaching pomiscuity by definition.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
when you’re a conservative in the gay community, you do feel that gays are “others.”
Conservatives are always playing victim rather than engaging. Someone who doesn’t consider himself gay, yet who offers constant critiques of the gay community, should be listened to. . . because?
I’m still waiting for a good reason.
And again, what puts Coulter in a position to assess the “promiscuity” of men? She’s single, likely hasn’t gotten any for several years (who would want to dish it out?), and is unlikely to have any significant contact with gays whatsoever.
Neither is someone who hates all “the gays” as an “outsider.” Two people with no experience in what they’re talking about, but lots of opinions. Who needs that?
posted by MM on
The trouble with the Internet, cable TV, and other mass media is that complex questions get glossed over with half-truths, stereotypes, and mere opinion. To what extent gay men are more promiscuous than other people is one of those complex questions, not to mention one fraught with emotion. Peter Beinart is correct in demanding empirical evidence. Do the existence of bathhouses reveal something about gay men that the existence of hookers and johns do not reveal about straight men? Who knows? Plus, if gay men are more promiscuous then there are likely very complex reasons for it, not the least of which being how males and gay males are socialized, or not socialized. It is easy to point fingers when complexities are tossed aside.
And why is the question of who is more promiscuous important anyway? Why is it even asked? Whatever the motivations for the question are, it is hard to have an informed discussion without knowing them.
posted by Bobby on
Conservatives are victimized just like any other group.
“Someone who doesn’t consider himself gay, yet who offers constant critiques of the gay community, should be listened to. . . because?”
—If the criticism is fair, balanced and informed, I will listen to it. When I came out, I thought everything that was said about gays was a lie. But now I know that’s not always the case. So rather than be an apologist for the gay community, an excuse maker, a justifier, I’d rather say “you know what, you’re right, there are bad gays out there, but not all gays are like that.”
At the gay newspaper they told me that my job was to make the gay community look good. I didn’t agree with that, the job should have been to cover the issues that affect the gay commuinty with honesty and integrity.
“She’s single, likely hasn’t gotten any for several years (who would want to dish it out?), and is unlikely to have any significant contact with gays whatsoever.”
—How can you speak that way of people you don’t even know? J. Edgar Hoover got laid, Roy Cohn got laid. It’s not liek conservatives are these plastic barbie dolls with no features or feelings. There’s even surveys about the wonderful sex lives of married born again christians. Aparently when they get married, they have sex with enthusiams and passion.
Ann Coulter has said she has gay friends, so she does have contact with gays. She also reads a lot of newspapers, books, trade journals, websites and rather than criticize with no basis, she quotes!
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
If the criticism is fair, balanced and informed, I will listen to it.
Fair = reasonable portrayal of the generalized situation. Is “all gays are promiscuous, hate religion and hate conservatives” a reasonable portrayal of the generalized situation? Nope.
Balanced = willing to consider points of view which are different from one’s own. I’m a libertarian, and am open to considering liberal and conservative views as well. Has ND30 ever, once, considered a liberal’s perspective (or libertarian’s, for that matter), with an open mind? Not that I’ve seen.
Informed = knows what he’s talking about. Generalizations about the gay community, especially ones based on burlesque caricatures and stereotypes, aren’t informed. Here, both Coulter and ND30 must plead guilty.
Ann Coulter has said she has gay friends
“Some of my best friends are gay.” Ms. Coulter shows little no knowledge of any sexuality, especially gay sexuality.
She also reads a lot of newspapers, books, trade journals, websites and rather than criticize with no basis, she quotes!
Quoting Paul Cameron, Ralph Reed and Jerry Falwell’s newspapers, books, trade journals and web sites does not establish any “expertise” in gay issues whatsoever. Long citations of baseless claims don’t add rigor, merely the appearance of it.
Ms. Coulter is a rather untalented polemecist, whose use of the epithet “fag” on cable TV in describing both gay men and Bill Clinton is neither informed nor particularly compelling. I’m sure she and her minions would be screeching if the much-less offensive “bitch” (or equally-offensive “cunt”) was used to describe her on a cable TV program.
posted by Bobby on
Come on Northeast, while you write “Fair = reasonable portrayal of the generalized situation,” the way you speak of Coulter says otherwise.
I read Godless, there wasn’t a single quote from Paul Cameron, in fact, the only complaint she had about about a crazy lesbian speaker who spoke about orgies and other indecent material at a high school meeting. Her shock isn’t that there are people who do crazy things, she could care less, but that such people are invited to talk about it in high school! In fact, her attack wasn’t on the gay community but on the political correctness that is brainwashing the kids.
Maybe Coulter isn’t perfect, but there’s a lot of imperfect people that are lionized by the media while Coulter gets treated like the devil. That’s one of the reasons Coulter is sympathetic in my eyes.
By the way, how do you feel about Michelle Malkin? I’m jst interested in seeing if you dislike most conservatives or only Coulter.
“Has ND30 ever, once, considered a liberal’s perspective (or libertarian’s, for that matter), with an open mind? Not that I’ve seen.”
—Maybe he doesn’t come here to discuss the liberal issues he agrees on.
Have you ever had a personal conversation with him? Are you expecting him to reveal himself to you just like that?
posted by kittynboi on
“”””By the way, how do you feel about Michelle Malkin? I’m jst interested in seeing if you dislike most conservatives or only Coulter.
“”””
I hate both of them.
posted by dalea on
I don’t hate Ann Coulter. Instead, I realize she is the living incarnation of the ideal Christian woman, the flowering of the fairer sex amongst conservative Christians. Her every utterance is flavored with the Gospels. She stands as not only a leading conservative Christian authority but also as one of the leading intellectual lights of contemporary Conservativism. To read Ann Coulter is to enter the lively world of conservative thinking. Her methodology and research stand head and shoulders above the usual efforts of right wing authors. She is the gold standard of conservative thought.
Without Ann Coulter, conservativism would be intellectual barren, bereft of deep thought and probing insight. She is probably the leading thinker of conservativism. She has revitalized the whole movement, bringing it to never before realized heights of rhetoric and comprehension.
When encountering her thoughts on the 9-11 widows, I saw the living spirit that animates contemporary conservative Christianity. What an excellent presentation of the promise of the Gospels for modern people! Surely through Ann Coulter more and more of the populace can see what conservative Christianity is all about.
So, no, I don’t hate her. I understand her position in a movement in which she is one of the foremost intellectuals.
posted by JimG on
Ann Coulter is certainly entitled to her opinion and to get it published. But to call her an intellectual is a stretch indeed. If you have to title a book “How to Talk to a Liberal, If you Must” then as I far as I am concerned you get the Al Franken “Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot” award. Two political sides to the same coin. A penny perhaps and worthy of not much else.
posted by JimG on
Concerning the issue at hand, Billy Crystal said it best, “Women need a reason to have sex, men just need a place.” I think that there are far more similarities between gay men and straight men then there are differences. And one of the advantages that gay men have had in dealing with each other sexually is that we have never had to deal with the “temperance” aspect that women bring to that arena. We gay men didn’t have to say that we liked or loved you or buy you flowers the next morning. Heck, we didn’t even have to know your name! And it was ok. If women were as fired up for sex as men are then, as far as I’m concerned, straight men would be going at it great guns just like we’ve been. But Nature, in its wisdom knows that that is not in the planet’s best interest, so men and women are wired quite differently when it comes to the area of sex.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
Maybe he doesn’t come here to discuss the liberal issues he agrees on.
Have you ever had a personal conversation with him? Are you expecting him to reveal himself to you just like that?
Well, he apparently expects us to take him seriously enough that he has his own blog and fancies himself a web personality with a big following. Yet he hasn’t got the 2-millmeter balls necessary to clarify basic positions or hash out a rational and consistent position on the issues.
By the way, how do you feel about Michelle Malkin? I’m jst interested in seeing if you dislike most conservatives or only Coulter.
Stating that I hate all conservatives because I despise hysterical idiots like Malkin and Coulter is equivalent to statiting that I hate all liberals because I want to vomit all over Michael Moore and Al Franken.
And more importantly, why don’t Republicrats focus on THOUGHTS rather than “feelings?” All these emotional, screaming ragings and accusations of base emotions like “hate,” and “disgust,” are so frigging tedious. Can’t conservatives and liberals discover some thinking people to justify their (admittedly increasingly out-of-touch) perspectives?
Ann Coulter screaming about faggots, Michelle Malkin’s endorsement of bombing civilians, Michael Moore’s claims that firearm owners are compensating for small penises, and Al Franken’s tears of rage whenever his politics are questioned make lovely skits on Saturday Night Live — I wish they wouldn’t insist that I “respect” or “understand” it. My three-year-old nephew is better behaved during his tantrums, and probably more rationally-calculating as well.
posted by raj on
Ann Coulter isn’t 40, she’s either 42 or 44, whichever of the two drivers licenses that she procured over the years you wish to believe. Apparently, she claims that the license indicating her age to be 42 is the correct one, but, if so, it has been alleged that she committed voter fraud in 1980 in CT.
Regarding By the way, how do you feel about Michelle Malkin? I’m jst interested in seeing if you dislike most conservatives or only Coulter.
I’m contemptuous of Michelle Malkin, and not just for her book justifying the internment of Americans of Japanese descent during WWII. I don’t read much of anything by her, but a few years ago right-wing talk show host David Brudnoy had her as a guest on his program, and she went on and on about a missing tanker that, if it had been abducted by terrorists, could be used in a terrorism attack. She was complaining up and down about the fact that nobody else was covering the story. Given her antics, I had assumed that she was talking about a tanker ship that was missing. Since I was rather incredulous that a tanker ship might be missing, I found her column on the subject, and was amused to find out that she was complaining that a tanker truck was missing. A tanker truck? Just how important is a tanker truck. Yet she kept raving about the subject. It was hilarious.
Btw, David Neiwert has much more about her antics when she was a “journalist” in Seattle. Her credibility is zero.
Finally, regarding NDXXX, I pretty much ignore his rants. He has shown himself here, at Malcontent and at the ridiculously-named GayPatriot to be a dishonest discussant.
posted by raj on
On the subject matter of the post
Over at Slate’s Kausfiles, there’s a transcript from MSNBC with New Republic editor Peter Beinart debating Ann Coulter over her contention that gay men are inherently more promiscuous than straight men.
I don’t know why, when issues like this are raised by wingnuts like Ann Coulter, the respondent doesn’t just say “Even if it’s true, so what? Are you envious of them”
posted by Bobby on
“I’m contemptuous of Michelle Malkin, and not just for her book justifying the internment of Americans of Japanese descent during WWII.”
—Don’t forget that german Americans and german nationals in Amerca were also sent to prison camps in the US. Camps in which they had enough food, water, and were treated like people. The Japanese haven’t dealt with their history, they deny the massacres they commited during hte war, not only against US Soldiers but all over Southeast Asia, including Nanjing, such as medical experimentation on prisoners, rapes, starvation, and all kinds of brutalities.
I have had Japanese friends, but I’m not gonna look at them like victims of war. Truman was right to nuke them, it was a small price to pay for all the deaths they caused.
posted by Aleks311 on
Re: All a gay man has to do is send a penis picture, or a full body picture, or a head and shoulders, maybe a medium shot, or say he looks at certain way.
You should modify this by stating “All a young, good-looking gay-man…”. gay guys who are over 40 (over even over 30 in some scenes), or overweight, of “defective” in any other way have rather little chance at finding sex partners unless they are in a regular relationship.
As for straight men and promiscuity, who else is keeping all the prostitutes in business?
posted by Aleks311 on
Another observation I would like to make on straight vs gay, male vs female: It does seem that women are looking for something more substantial in men that gay guys are not. My straight step-brother went through a messy divorce at 45 but soon landed in a new relationship although he is not particularly good-looking and certainly isn’t rich. Meanwhile, throughout most of my 30s (I am now 39) I had trouble even getting a gay date let alone finding a relationship (and yes, I was looking in my age group not cruising twinks). In gay bars I rarely am hit on except my husslers and other users– and yet if I go out to a straight bar (as I do sometimes with straight friend and relatives) it isn’t unusual for me to have some woman or other (and no, not hookers!) take an interest in me, not knowing I am gay. So there is some qualitative difference between the gay and straight sex scenes and relationship scenes.
posted by dalea on
JimG says: But to call her an intellectual is a stretch indeed.
Well by some standards, like those used by godless heathen secularists, this is true. But by the standards of conservatives and conservative Christians, Ann Coulter is one of the leading thinkers of our time.
Which probably says more about conservative ‘intellectuals’ than anything else.
posted by jason on
Aleks311
I don\\’t necessarily agree that gay men are only interested in sex, whereas women aren\\’t.
One thing you have to remember is the pool is very small. We generally have to cluster to create a dating pool (hence the gay communities in larger cities) In order for gay men to date, they need to cast a wide, wide, wide, wide net. Personal Ads, bars, social clubs, classes, coffeeshops. I know more than a handful of couples who had to do the long-distance thing. Straight people are everywhere, and thus, have thousands of opportunities to meet someone new every week. Gay people, however, have to create those opportunities.
What\\’s changing in the younger gays is they are coming out sooner, so the \\”arrested development\\” that happens socially and romantically with so many gay men isn\\’t happening, so the level of dating experience of 1 gay man and 1 straight man who are both 22 isn\\’t likely to be as different as it would\\’ve been 20 years ago.
A lot of gay people like to romanticise heterosexuals, as if things are all better on their side of the fence, but it isn\\’t so. There are plenty of single straight people, and they have a gigantic dating pool.
posted by Bobby on
“You should modify this by stating “All a young, good-looking gay-man…”. gay guys who are over 40 (over even over 30 in some scenes), or overweight, of “defective” in any other way have rather little chance at finding sex partners unless they are in a regular relationship”
—That’s not necesarily true. Bear411.com specializes on fat gay men for example. Among bears like me who prefer skinny men, we face a lot of competition, more than a skinny guy into skinny guys would face, but that doesn’t mean you can’t find what you want.
As for being over 40, you just have to sell yourself to the right audience. Maybe other guys over 40, maybe those who like ’em older.
The truth is that at my age of 31, I no longer care much about dating, chatting online bores me, e-mails have gotten annoying, and I’ve found a somewhat fulfilling life with TV, books and scuba diving whenever I can afford it.
I’ve become as “hard to get” as every other gay man. Maybe I would be happier with a boyfriend, but I won’t let that stop me from living life to the fullest.