A new marriage ad is making its mark on the web (and, I believe, on MTV). Clever and effective, or patronizing, pleading and overly hip? Click here and scroll down to "Permission" to see for yourself. (Yes, our IGF technology is much inferior to that at AndrewSullivan.com and elsewhere; deal with it.)
More. The link also has additional marriage ads produced by Public Interest. Comments Lebain (and I found this interesting so I'm reposting it all):
I was unfortunate enough to be one of the (small) donors who supported Public Interest productions (www.publicinterest.tv) in the production of these ads. Never again!
First, the ads came out AFTER the important Congressional votes on marriage, and AFTER primaries and the November elections when so many marriage bans were passed (or at least my media kit from the producers arrived after the elections), even though I had donated well in advance of both votes. The producers told me MTV would donate $1M of airtime for the ads, but the ads were delivered so late, most if not all that opportunity was missed.
Second, with the exception of the "Permission" ad, all included the most disgusting imagery possible on such a sensitive subject. Two weiners in a boiling pot? Two donuts? Sex toys and graphic images of piercings? I'm sure the producers had MTV's demographic in mind, but instead of creating spots that respect their young audience, they produced trasparently veiled pornography meant more to shock and disgust their audience.
As a public company with govt. affairs and tax lawyers, MTV also probably didn't want to seem to blatantly endorse one position or the other on marrige. Hence the weak "Think Before You Vote" message rather than a more direct "Vote to Support Marriage Equality."
38 Comments for “A Pro-Gay Marriage Ad, for the MTV Generation.”
posted by kittynboi on
I like it. I gets across the point I’ve been trying to get to people for a long time now; why should we have to get permission from complete strangers to do something that has nothing to do with them?
posted by Patrick on
Clever and effective. The most important audience for these ads are not anti-gay folk or even gay allies. The most important audience for these ads are gay youth who, I believe, often dont understand how deep their exclusion from mainstream society runs. Focusing on marriage rights gives clarity to the reasons for being passionate, active and definitely angry about the lies and dehumanization dripping from supremacist segregationist anti-gay political and religious leaders. Gay youth need to raise their voices and demand equality under the law. These ads are too diplomatic if nothing else.
posted by Bobby on
“Focusing on marriage rights gives clarity to the reasons for being passionate, active and definitely angry”
—I disagree, gay activists are a minority within a minority, it gets boring after awhile.
The ad might help insecure gay youth, but let’s face it, things aren’t as bad as they were in the past.
Remember your history! Anyone knows the headline in the New York Times the day after Stonewall? I think it was something like “Queen Bees in a Rage” or something like that.
posted by kittynboi on
Bobby, that’s stupid. Just because things were worse once before doesn’t mean we should stop trying to improve things now that stuff is better. That’s a lazy, slovenly, and ignorant attitude.
http://toucanfiles.blogspot.com
posted by Tom Scharbach on
Bobby, I don’t know if “gay activists” are a minority within a minority, as you put it, because any gay or lesbian who does anything other than sit silent is considered, by most straights, a “homosexual activist”.
But certainly the number of gays and lesbians who will marry are a minority within a minority. And despite my strong belief that we must secure marriage equality, my guess is that in the long run, it will be more important for the majority of gays and lesbians to build other forms of relationship.
But the point of marriage equality is not to get gays and lesbians married. The point is to gain the right to marriage, on an equal footing with straights, to be treated like everyone else, legally.
The “protect marriage” movement has nothing to do with marriage. It has everything to do with denying gays and lesbians equal treatment under the law, to maintain distinctions and deny basic rights of citizenship, such as the right to petition our government. The anti-gay forces know that if we can crack marriage, their efforts to deny us adoption and return sodomy laws to the books will be for naught.
Most gays and lesbians know it, too, I suspect. In the rural area where I live, the gays and lesbians who are leading the fight against the amendment are not interested in getting married, for the most part. A few, but not most. Most understand the nature of the struggle, though, and know that this is a battle we have to fight, even though the percentage of gays and lesbians who will marry is small.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
I think this is by far the most salient comment made on the topic:
The most important audience for these ads are gay youth who, I believe, often dont understand how deep their exclusion from mainstream society runs.
Considering the rhetoric of the gay activists here, one would think that would be patently obvious in their day to day lives, no?
Of course, the reason that these ads are being run is because the activists of the gay world are losing their grip on the next generation. Instead of taking it for granted that they are victims and obediently falling into line and opening their wallets, these young gays actually are asking why gays waste so much effort on something that most gays don’t want and won’t use anyway — mainly because, in their day to day lives, it’s patently obvious that the lack of marriage has virtually no effect on their ability to have careers, vote, do whatever.
posted by Xeno on
I have to agree Kittynboi and Tom.
So Bobby, black americans shouldn’t have fighted the ‘Jim Crow’ laws, because things weren’t as bad as they were in the past with slavery?
Sheesh, you complain the most about far-left extremists, yet you demostrate yourself as an extremist of the polar opposite.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
the activists of the gay world are losing their grip on the next generation
Another hilarious big dump from our token fake gay.
Not only are gay kids more (gasp) liberal on the issue of gay marriage, but kids in general — including heterosexual ones — are far more supportive.
I’d feel sorry for your bitterness towards others’ successful relationships (and the likely effect it would have on your own ability to find happiness), ND30, except that your “gay” act is so laughably obvious that there’s little doubt in my mind you’re nought but a figment of someone’s fevered imagination.
posted by raj on
Bobby | August 1, 2006, 3:35pm |
Remember your history! Anyone knows the headline in the New York Times the day after Stonewall? I think it was something like “Queen Bees in a Rage” or something like that.
I don’t remember the headline, but I do remember that the NYTimes was incredibly homophobic for a long time. Remember the late, unlamented, Abe Rosenthal, long time managing editor of the NYTimes? Not all Jews are pro-equal rights for gay people.
posted by Br. Katana of Reasoned Discussion on
“The ad might help insecure gay youth, but let’s face it, things aren’t as bad as they were in the past.
It sounds like you’re saying that we should be content with how far we’ve come. That we are at a point, in terms of civil rights, where things will not improve noticably.
I have to disagree. There are still areas where legal discrimination needs to be addressed. Sitting back and waiting for the Religious Right to see the error of their ways, to renounce their agenda to push GLBT people back to the bottom of the social pile, is a foolish notion.
On this issue, I’m with the “activists.” Because the kind of “ignore it and it will get better” philospohy that seems to be popular in certain sectors of the gay community will not help change this country for the better.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
And another “gay activist” makes a slip of the tongue:
Sitting back and waiting for the Religious Right to see the error of their ways, to renounce their agenda to push GLBT people back to the bottom of the social pile, is a foolish notion.
So again, it’s not a matter of winning rights; those are there already. It’s a matter of gay leftists fighting an antireligious jihad, using the imaginary boogeyman of the “religious right” and the bauble of “marriage” to scare the new generation into opening wallets and doing their bidding in support of causes that the new generation doesn’t want.
Particularly funny is watching our board “libertarian”, NL, suddenly claim that not caring about whether one’s relationship is governmentally-sanctioned or not is “bitterness”.
posted by kittynboi on
I’m all for destroying religion.
Never having been raised with it, I find it easy not to hold any sympathy for it.
posted by John on
I liked the ad since it does get the point across but it won’t be effective in winning over converts. Religious conservatives can still put their heads in the sand and say that we gay guys, like the straight guy, can ask for their daughter in marriage.
I’m not that creative but the advertisers should make an ad that forces the heterosexual to confront that issue head on and make them question if they would propose to someone they weren’t and couldn’t even be attracted to. Perhaps they should have a lineup with a guy or girl choosing who they will fall in love with.
On a side note, the “threat” ad was the best and got the point across real well and the “piercing” one grossed me, and I’m sure, others out as well and should be discontinued.
posted by jomicur on
Excuse me for asking, ND30, but how exactly is the religious right “imaginary”? Is the notion that Robertson, Falwell, Dobson, Bauer, D. James Kennedy et al do everything they can to foment anti-gay sentiment just something we’ve dreamed? Are the pope’s weekly attacks on our lives, our relationships and our simple human dignity something dreamed up by the “liberal media”? When bigoted politicians point to the sacred book of a tribe of Bronze Age nomands to justify keeping us in the back of the bus, should we shrug it off because they’re only imaginary? You have so much more insight into this than the rest of us. Please do explain.
posted by kittynboi on
""""I liked the ad since it does get the point across but it won’t be effective in winning over converts. Religious conservatives can still put their heads in the sand and say that we gay guys, like the straight guy, can ask for their daughter in marriage.""""
Part of the problem is that the religious reich is so narcissistic, self absorbed, spoiled, and filled with delusions of entitlement, that many of them probably DO think that everyone should have to get their permission to do anything.
posted by kittynboi on
Reposting to fix an html error I caused in my last post.
The Toucan Files
posted by LeBain on
I was unfortunate enough to be one of the (small) donors who supported Public Interest productions (http://www.publicinterest.tv) in the production of these ads. Never again!
First, the ads came out AFTER the important Congressional votes on marriage, and AFTER primaries and the November elections when so many marriage bans were passed (or at least my media kit from the producers arrived after the elections), even though I had donated well in advance of both votes. The producers told me MTV would donate $1M of airtime for the ads, but the ads were delivered so late, most if not all that opportunity was missed.
Second, with the exception of the "Permission" ad, all included the most disgusting imagery possible on such a sensitive subject. Two weiners in a boiling pot? Two donuts? Sex toys and graphic images of piercings? I’m sure the producers had MTV’s demographic in mind, but instead of creating spots that respect their young audience, they produced trasparently veiled pornography meant more to shock and disgust their audience.
As a public company with govt. affairs and tax lawyers, MTV also probably didn’t want to seem to blatantly endorse one position or the other on marrige. Hence the weak "Think Before You Vote" message rather than a more direct "Vote to Support Marriage Equality."
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
it’s not a matter of winning rights; those are there already
I know “North Dallas Thirty” isn’t a gay Republican, but I cannot figure out whether he’s a particularly clueless GOP operative or a silly lefty having fun. 😉
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Excuse me for asking, ND30, but how exactly is the religious right “imaginary”?
Simple; if they’re so powerful, how did we get where we are, with over half of the Fortune 500 providing domestic partner benefits and 86% having nondiscrimination policies including sexual orientation — and an almost completely-ironclad success record at keeping them, even in the face of such opposition?
That’s because in business, the hate tactics of gay leftists get them fired. The only gays who are left in business are smart, industrious people who know how to get along with others.
In the conventional world, though, the hate-flingers are the ones who are speaking for gays, and as a result, we’re being screwed. The whines of these leftists about how the religious right is so powerful and oppressing us is just an attempt on their part to shift blame and deflect the obvious fact that their tactics and beliefs turn off most Americans.
posted by kittynboi on
Maybe because the companies on the Fortune 500 aren’t at the whim of the religious rights wishes?
The religious right themselves have bragged about their suypposed power, so apaprently they ALSO believe the leftist myth the brave ND30 requires.
Why do you have such a hard on for christers, ND30?
posted by Bobby on
“I’m all for destroying religion.
Never having been raised with it, I find it easy not to hold any sympathy for it.”
—Hey Kittinboi, so you hate something you admitedly know much about? Sounds like homophobia to me. Homophobes also hate what they don’t know. It also confirms the worst fears anti-gay people have. Not that it matters, the gay community is beyond PR at this point.
“So Bobby, black americans shouldn’t have fighted the ‘Jim Crow’ laws, because things weren’t as bad as they were in the past with slavery?”
—Blacks did fight it, but with decorum and decency, at least when Dr. Martin Luther King, jr. was alive. After he got killed, the radicals took over, then you had the riots, the black panthers (who I do support their right to bear arms, but not their communist leanings), crazy homophobic racists like Malcom X, cop killing “heroes” like Mumia Abdul Jabar, etc, etc, etc.
But you know what? I’m not gonna criticize the black community. There are many black leaders, including Bill Cosby, who are not afraid to tell the truth no matter who gets hurt.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
if they’re so powerful, how did we get where we are, with over half of the Fortune 500 providing domestic partner benefits and 86% having nondiscrimination policies including sexual orientation
You do realize that the Fortune 500 provide under 25% of the total employment opportunities in the US and less than 10% of the job growth? The future is small and medium enterprises — and the vast majority of Americans (and gays and lesbians) work for SMEs.
in business, the hate tactics of gay leftists get them fired
More meaningless gobbledygook.
Why do you have such a hard on for christers, ND30?
Because he is one, pretending to be a “gay man.” You don’t actually believe that an “out and proud gay man” would be so shrieky about what “the gays” are doing, do you? It’s classic right-wing boilerplate.
And the grammatical style changes rather frequently as well, so I’d not be surprised if multiple people were posting as “him.”
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
you hate something you admitedly know much about? Sounds like homophobia to me.
I don’t know much about genocide — yet I hate genocide. I must be a ‘phobe. Alas.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
The future is small and medium enterprises — and the vast majority of Americans (and gays and lesbians) work for SMEs.
LOL…..so instead of acknowledging the Fortune 500, you’re trying to change the subject and whine that smaller companies don’t have nondiscrimination policies or partner benefits. Nice try.
Because he is one, pretending to be a “gay man.”
And there you have it, folks; NL believes that all gays have to believe and act the same way.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
instead of acknowledging the Fortune 500, you’re trying to change the subject and whine that smaller companies don’t have nondiscrimination policies or partner benefits
When did I post about nondiscrimination or partner benefits?
I simply pointed out that your talk about “business life” is nonsensical because the Fortune 500 represent such a tiny portion of employment in America.
NL believes that all gays have to believe and act the same way
Nope, but I have noticed that “gay” trolls tend to believe and act the same way.
posted by Bobby on
“you hate something you admitedly know much about? Sounds like homophobia to me.
I don’t know much about genocide — yet I hate genocide. I must be a ‘phobe. Alas.”
—Fine, you want to compare religion to genocide, go ahead. What about Mao’s “cultural” revolution and the genocide he caused? Mao was an hardcore atheists, ask the Dalai Lama. Ask the chinese that got killed in the revolution, ask the tibetan nuns that were raped and the farmers that were killed and had their
property confiscated.
When I hate something, I make damn sure I know about it.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
What about Mao’s “cultural” revolution and the genocide he caused?
Horrible, to be certain. Just like the crusades!
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
I simply pointed out that your talk about “business life” is nonsensical because the Fortune 500 represent such a tiny portion of employment in America.
A quarter of employees is a “tiny portion”?
Furthermore, in order for it to be not representative and “nonsensical”, as you claim, that implies that small and medium companies do not offer DP benefits or nondiscrimination policies.
So you can either admit that small and medium size businesses do offer DP benefits and nondiscrimination policies, or you can continue trying to argue otherwise and lose.
Which is it?
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
A quarter of employees is a “tiny portion”?
Yes it is. It’s like commenting about how people who “don’t know how to use a Macintosh cannot use a personal computer,” ignoring the fact that Windows is the vast majority of the marketplace (and most Windows users don’t know how to use a Macintosh).
in order for it to be not representative and “nonsensical”, as you claim, that implies that small and medium companies do not offer DP benefits or nondiscrimination policies
It implies nothing other than the fact that I’m pointing out that you’re making your conclusions about the marketplace based on less than 25% of all the jobs in the marketplace, and thus have no basis to make your claims.
you can either admit that small and medium size businesses do offer DP benefits and nondiscrimination policies, or you can continue trying to argue otherwise and lose
No, I can simply point out that your citations about “business life” and conditions in the workplace don’t necessarily apply to 75% of gay employees who don’t work for the Fortune 500 (and definitely don’t apply to an additional 12% who work for Fortune 500 companies who don’t offer the benefits), meaning that at best you have empirical data on 13% of the market.
Now I know conservatives LOVE to spout off ideological statements with little to no data, but you have to admit making sweeping and inflammatory statements whilst only understanding 25% of the situation is stupid — even by your standards.
posted by Bobby on
“What about Mao’s “cultural” revolution and the genocide he caused?
Horrible, to be certain. Just like the crusades!”
—So you’re justifying one horrible thing by mentioning another horrible thing? Why don’t you admit that when the secular get control of the State, they can be just as vicious as anything religious people have done in history.
The USSR and Nazi Germany are great examples.
Of course, you only choose to focus on examples of the horrible things religious people have done, and if the secular do anything wrong, you simply close your eyes and deny or, excuse it, or mention another religious example.
What’s the matter? You’ve never met a secular homophobe?
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
when the secular get control of the State, they can be just as vicious as anything religious people have done in history.
Secularists are pluralists, not enforced atheists.
The USSR and Nazi Germany are great examples.
The USSR was a forced socio-religious state which attempted to impose communism (and adulation of the “leader”) as a mandatory replacement for other religious beliefs (and forced atheists/agnostics into the new state religion of communism).
Nazi Germany was a Christian state. Hitler was an avowed Catholic, enjoyed excellent relations with the Pope (read the book “Hitler’s Pope” to examine this), and regularly referenced Christian ideology and iconography as the basis for his Third Reich.
you only choose to focus on examples of the horrible things religious people have done
Not at all. I simply point out that religion is not some prima facie “wonderful thing,” and in many cases can be a horrendous source of some of the most criminal acts known to man — whether it’s radical Christian fundamentalists bombing abortion clinics; radical Christian racialists like Hitler executing Jews, Gypsies and gays; or radical Muslim extremists blowing up school buses or crashing airplanes into skyscrapers.
Ever meet a radical secularist suicide bomber? A radical atheist terrorist who flies airplanes into buildings? A secular pluralist abortion clinic shooter?
Me neither.
posted by Bobby on
Hitler removed all crosses from germany’s public schools, and replaced the cross with his picture. Hitler also had a euthanasia program that killed the retarded, the physically defect, the insane, and other “life unworthy of living.” A program that stopped once german catholics protested publicly about it.
To be fair, I do believe that a crazy person will be crazy with or without religion.
“The USSR was a forced socio-religious state which attempted to impose communism (and adulation of the “leader”) as a mandatory replacement for other religious beliefs (and forced atheists/agnostics into the new state religion of communism).”
—Your right about that, modern secularism has the same fanaticism as any religious fundamentalism you will find. Hardcore Secularists can’t even stand the sight of a cross at a San Diego mountain, I’m sure that those crosses at federal cemeteries must be giving them heartache as well. In the advertising industry, they’re the kind of people that yell “don’t write “merry christmas, someone might get offended.” The “christmas break” became the “winter break,” there are schools where you can’t even play the instrumental version of Ave Maria. So even religious music that has artistic value is being verbotten.
Is it any wonder my christian friends think someday they’ll end up in concentration camps? Maybe re-education camps?
The first amendment is dying, celebrities yell “hate speech is not free speech,” in Canada priests who say anything homophobic get sued, teachers get fired for wearing a cross, the same newspaper that won’t print hte Mohammed cartoon prints a cartoon of a gay jesus getting a BJ, come on NL, just because you like the secular doesn’t mean you can’t admit they’re not a little crazy.
I’ll admit there are wackjobs on my side, but I’m not gonna pretend that all secular people are nice, friendly, pro-democracy people.
posted by kittynboi on
“”””Is it any wonder my christian friends think someday they’ll end up in concentration camps? Maybe re-education camps?””””
Yes, it is a wonder, because you have to be really stupid to think that secularists are going to take over a country where atheists are the most distrusted and hated minority there is.
“””””The first amendment is dying,””””
Of course, the base primitive christianists have ntohing to do with that.
Christianist fanatics are only rivaled in their pure evil by Islamists.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
Hitler removed all crosses from germany’s public schools, and replaced the cross with his picture. Hitler also had a euthanasia program that killed the retarded, the physically defect, the insane, and other “life unworthy of living.” A program that stopped once german catholics protested publicly about it.
A couple of quotes from Hitler:
I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord’s work. [Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]
Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . we need believing people. [Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933]
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed. [Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922, published in My New Order, quoted in Freethought Today April 1990]
I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 46]
This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.152]
I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so [Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]
—
These are just a few of literally hundreds of quotes. Interestingly, the rhetoric of contemporary American religious conservatives — that all morality springs from religion, that without religious teachings in school kids will “turn bad,” etc. — are directly lifted from Hitler’s speeches and Mein Kampf.
Study history, don’t just repeat what the conservative talking point machine tells you. The reality is that the religious-right agenda, using religion against “evil people” and implementing it as a national platform, is lifted straight from the Nazi strategy for acquiring power — no ifs, ands, or buts about it.
And it was Adolph Hitler and the Nazis who raged against “secularists,” not secularists who elevated the Nazis.
You should do some thinking about who your friends are and what they represent — after reading the actual history.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
No, I can simply point out that your citations about “business life” and conditions in the workplace don’t necessarily apply to 75% of gay employees who don’t work for the Fortune 500 (and definitely don’t apply to an additional 12% who work for Fortune 500 companies who don’t offer the benefits), meaning that at best you have empirical data on 13% of the market.
So, in other words, small and medium companies don’t have nondiscrimination policies or domestic partner benefits.
The reason you’re doing this, NL, is because your only reaction is contradiction whenever I make a post — and admitting that several small and medium-sized companies offer partner benefits makes me right and you wrong.
‘Twill never happen.
As for your Hitler twaddle, two words: propaganda appeals. Napoleon Bonaparte, who himself was an agnostic, made the very same types of statements publicly, yet was contemptuous of Christianity in private. Furthermore, you completely leave out that many courageous Christians, i.e. Dietrich Bonhoffer, were leaders in the resistance AGAINST Hitler. Trying to smear Christians with guilt because Hitler professed to be one is no different than trying to smear all Germans with guilt for the same reasons.
And Bobby’s accusation stands; even given an example of a homophobic, murderous atheist like Jacob Robida, your response, as well as the rest of the gay left, is to blame religion.
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