As Israel fights to defend the only liberal democracy in the Mideast, James Kirchick asks, in response to an Advocate interview with lesbian Palestinian activist Rauda Morcos, "Is it racist to say that the Palestinian Authority is light-years behind Israel in terms of LGBT equality?" He also wonders why the highest-profile international gay rights organization is boycotting WorldPride in Jerusalem this August.
Mideast Myopia.
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32 Comments for “Mideast Myopia.”
posted by Bobby on
So telling the obvious truth is racist? Does Ms. Morcos live in Palestine? Does she know what Hamas does to gay and lesbians there? Israel is full of palestineans who would rather prostitute themselves in Tel Aviv than the torture and/or death they would get in palestine.
The Advocate keeps getting more leftwing all the time. I think their decay started when they hired a lesbian feminist editor.
posted by kittynboi on
I was glad to see this article in The Advocate. I dislike the whole Palestinian issue in the first place, and I hate Islam anyway.
And Bobby. Shove it up your ass.
“”””The Advocate keeps getting more leftwing all the time. I think their decay started when they hired a lesbian feminist editor.””””
Is this; “”This sort of culturally relativistic posturing?talk of ?our own scale? in regards to basic human rights that all people deserve, regardless of where they live?is a tool used by individuals like Marcos to take advantage of the guilt complexes of Western liberals. The argument allows her to escape the otherwise obvious point that Israel is light-years ahead of the Palestinians when it comes to gay rights.
To say that the Arab world is behind the West in terms of gay and women?s rights is not racist; it is simply the truth.””
Is that a sign of leftwing decay? Did you even read the entire article?
posted by Richard J. Rosendall on
For an in-depth look at the IGLHRC nonsense to which Kirchick refers, see my article for FrontPageMagazine at: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21124
posted by kittynboi on
FrontPageMag is a rag I refuse to read. Gross.
David Horowitz would totally lose in a fight against Two-Face.
posted by John on
In Israel the debate is over gay pride can be held in Jerusalem. In Afghanistan the debate was over how to exceute gays. In Israel, gays can go to bars without fear of imprisonment. In Iran the government sentenced to death two gay teenagers. Saudi Arabia’s theomonicharcial government doesn’t respect its gays. Yemen wouldn’t. The moderate cleric Al-Sistani in Iraq called for a jihad against gays and Egypt raided a ship full of them.
Are the Israelis perfect? No. Do they respect gay couples’ right to marry? Not yet. Should the Palestinians have a free state to call their own? Yes. But of all of the countries within the region, Israel alone gives its gay citizens some space to call their own.
posted by Mark on
The fact the gays are treated better in Israel than anywhere else in the region is not even a debatable point.
Israel’s foreign / military policy is another issue.
posted by Antaeusz on
Israel’s militarism is definitely another issue! When it bombs hundreds indiscriminately in Lebanon, scores of gays are flat-out terminated. Really, I am capable of thinking about the morality of war and peace without reference to gay rights legislation. But to the extent that I do, does anyone really think that raining injustice down on Arab populations does anything to advance the security necessary to advance liberalism and secularism? I thought not!
PS Jake Gannon is an embarrassment. Is it okay to be a whorish flack as long as you are Republican? Spare Me.
posted by Avee on
Oh, spare us Antaeusz. Israel pulls out of Gaza and southern Lebanon in the hope for a lasting peace (with a 2-state solution), so of course the Palestinians lauch rockets at Israel from Gaza, and the Iran/Syria backed terrorists launched rockets from Lebanon. Your solution, that the Jews should just die, isn’t going to play. And spare us your moralizing about Gannon, too! It’s his body to do with what he wants (gee, "whorish," you sound just like a fundie, which you no doubt are – a leftwing, Israel-hating fundie!)
posted by Tom Scharbach on
Antaeusz: “When it [Israel] bombs hundreds indiscriminately in Lebanon, scores of gays are flat-out terminated. Really. But to the extent that I do, does anyone really think that raining injustice down on Arab populations does anything to advance the security necessary to advance liberalism and secularism? I thought not!”
I don’t see any evidence that Israel is bombing indiscriminately in Lebanon or targeting civilians. The targets appear to be targets of military value, and Israel has put its own pilots at risk by dropping leaflets, hours in advance, before it bombs targets in areas where civilians are concentrated.
Israel’s self-defense may or may not “advance the security necessary to advance liberalism and secularism”. I would suggest that the question is irrelevant in the present circumstances. Israel is under attack by short-range and medium-range missles launched by Hezbollah. The number of incoming missles coming in are literally in the hundreds. Israel has both the right and the responsibility to respond with appropriate military action.
I have family and friends in Haifa and other areas of northern Israel, and that I am am by no means neutral about the survival of Israel. You can take that into account.
But my personal biases aside, it seems to me, Antaeusz, that Israel has as much right and responsibility to respond to the threat of Hezbollah in Lebanon as the United States had to respond to the 9/11 attack by taking military action in Afghanistan. It is that simple.
Shalom.
posted by raj on
kittynboi | July 18, 2006, 10:11am |
FrontPageMag is a rag I refuse to read. Gross.
David Horowitz…
I understand your point, but FPM is not totally gross. David Horowitz is a whore (first he was a lefty–Ramparts and all–then, when it became economically beneficial to him, he became a righty), but some of the stuff there isn\\’t worth dismissing out of hand. It isn\\’t worth believing out of hand, either, but that\\’s a different issue.
posted by raj on
Regarding this ridiculous “security” crap, it took me 3 time to transcribe the security code into the little box. I’m going to ignore y’all from now on. It isn’t worth the effort.
Stevie, feel free to blather on as you feel free. And I’ll ignore your bloviations. Here, that is.
posted by hlm on
Israel may be democracy but it is hardly a liberal democracy and certainly not liberal in the classical sense of the word.
posted by ETJB on
Meanwhile….gay Iraqis…well..you…should know the rest.
posted by Jorge on
Regarding al-Sistani, you know, I’ve had lot of respect for him. He’s smart, he responds effectively to events without really reacting, and he’s very pragmatic. He’s one of a few people who seems like he understands what’s best for his people, and everyone knows it. That’s the problem; he’s much too powerful.
The most frustrating and discouraging thing to me is realizing that despite what he has done, he’s still one of the best leaders in Iraq.
I think perhaps that as long as only a few powerful people in the Middle East are able to have the dispassion and exposure to ideas, we won’t see the best of humanity rise up en masse. We’ll just get a few shining imperfect people.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
It’s amusing, on one hand, to read ceaseless right-wing complaints of how liberals tie irrelevant issues to gay rights — and then see conservatives do the same thing (i.e. pro-gay = pro-Israeli without reservation).
I don’t really choose a dog in the fight. Both sides have their problems. I slouch towards Israel for personal reasons, but since most/all of us aren’t citizens of the countries in question, we’re not in much of a position to have a legitimate or relevant opinion, are we?
Where do we hold influence? We hold it in the US elections — and so far, on gay persecution and refugee issues, the Republicrats get failing grades.
In “liberated Afghanistan,” homosexuality is still punished by the death penalty.
In “liberated Iraq,” Iraqi troops/police armed and trained by the US government hunt down and execute gays, and the US military announced that it will do nothing to stop the organized killings because they “have other priorities.”
The United States still does not provide universal asylum for persecuted gays who flee places including Lebanon and the Palestinian territories because they fear for their lives. Many have been handed back to their torturers to be imprisoned, tortured and executed as a result.
Further, Lebanon has a thriving gay scene, which is just as vibrant as anything in Tel Aviv. In fact, Lebanese gay groups produce a calendar of gay men to raise money and have support within the Lebanese parliament.
A quick look at the situation in Israel also indicates that the situation there is far from ideal — at least if you consider the unified Christian, Muslim and Jewish effort to ban World Pride in Jerusalem and threaten death to attendees.
So pardon me if I see the latest neoconservative effort to tie Israeli-Lebanese politics to gay life to be a cynical and idiotic transparent tactic. If they really gave a shit, things would be different in Iraq and Iran, and they’d be up-to-date on the status of gays in other parts of the Middle East. They don’t, they aren’t, and they don’t care — efforts to say the contrary notwithstanding.
The effort to declare good homos support the Israeli military is no different at all from the efforts by liberals to declare that good homos support socialist health care. Yet the right wing will ceaselessly whine about the latter, and wonder why everyone laughs at them.
posted by Avee on
NL sez: >>”I don’t really choose a dog in the fight. Both sides have their problems. … since most/all of us aren’t citizens of the countries in question, we’re not in much of a position to have a legitimate or relevant opinion, are we?” << Of course we can have opinions on this! Your moral relativism equating terrorists with those fighting terrorism aside, to claim only those involved can have an opinion is totally illogical. Can we have no opinion of any foreign issue? Puleaze. And unlike lefties who tie gay issues in with union organizing, opposition to social security reform and support for racial preferences, the above debate is clearly about the GAY POLICIES of Israel and its Arab neighbors.
posted by Antaeusz on
Is Avi, who pretends to have a Sabra name but cannot spell it, unable to distinguish between A)respecting that gays qua gays will not march to the same drummer on any other contentious issue and B) saying that gays have NO opinions simply as humans? Is Av(ee) also unable to distinguish between 1) moral relativism and 2) simply believing that Gentile lives have value in a way fully commensurate with that of Jews?
Rachel Marcos and Kirchick are two sides of the same coin of ethnocentrism. Kirchick is not fully psychologically OUT in my opinion, which is why he is trying so hard to derive his gay activism from his ethnic superloyalty. But he is trying to square the circle. Slice it and dice it any way you like, homosexuality is Levitically Incorrect.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
moral relativism equating terrorists with those fighting terrorism
More vaporous rhetorical flatulence from the intellectually stunted right. Can’t you guys come up with ANY new arguments other than “if you disagree with us, you’re a terrorist-lover?”
to claim only those involved can have an opinion is totally illogical
Nope. I’m simply pointing out that opinions are like rectums — everyone’s got them and most stink.
the above debate is clearly about the GAY POLICIES of Israel and its Arab neighbors
No it’s not.
First of all, as I pointed out before, Israel’s “gay policies” aren’t all that good, and Lebanon’s aren’t all that bad. Pretending they are is nonsense — but dismissing the facts has become a conservative art form.
Secondly, right-wing supporters of the Bush administration have no legitimate point in this debate. They played the “they execute gays” card with the Taliban and Saddam Hussein too — yet executions persist and are actually on the increase after they’ve been “liberated.” Which tells me that the right wing’s commitment to gays is less than zero — not to mention dishonest and manipulative. In other words, par for the course in Right-Wing Land.
posted by Avee on
Antaeusz insults, >>"Is Avi, who pretends to have a Sabra name but cannot spell it"<< The angry left has no arguments, only insults, as we all know. Avee is a perhaps too-cute variation on my initials, used for several months on this site. Let us all be thankful that the angry left, while it may control the LBGT movement, is not in power in this country!
posted by Bobby on
“And Bobby. Shove it up your ass.”
—Resorting to personal attacks, Kyttenboi. I guess you don’t like the truth, or maybe you just don’t want to debate it.
You’re such a fence sitter, one day a liberal, next day a consevative, then a liberal. I think you just like to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. Go ahead and play your little game.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
such a fence sitter
In other words, he actually thinks about the issues in question and arrives at his own conclusions, rather than adopting those which are fed to him by Ann Coulter on FOX or Janeane Garafalo on Air America.
Truly deplorable! This is politics in the age of George W. Bush — you’re not supposed to actually think!
posted by Bobby on
Look Libertarian, he’s a shifter.
You debate me with facts and opinions and views, he resorts to personal attacks. And while you are mostly consistent, he shifts from left to right, trying to please everyone except me.
Besides, think about his name, “kittynboi,” he’s probably into raves. Only gay weirdoes call themselves “boi.” It’s their obsession to be young forever.
What kind of word is that? The word is “boy,” not “boi.” You see how the left is always perverting the language? Shameful.
As often as I disagree with you because you’re not always enthusiastic about the libertarian causes I like, I have far more respect for your consistency.
posted by Tom Scharbach on
Bobby: “Besides, think about his name, “kittynboi,” he’s probably into raves. Only gay weirdoes call themselves “boi.” It’s their obsession to be young forever.
What kind of word is that? The word is “boy,” not “boi.” You see how the left is always perverting the language? Shameful.”
Oh, for Christ’s sake. We are down to name calling, now?
posted by Bobby on
He started it!
posted by Thomas Horsville on
“Since most/all of us aren’t citizens of the countries in question, we’re not in much of a position to have a legitimate or relevant opinion, are we?”
Since American citizens always end up paying the bills of Israel’s military campaigns, I think they are entitled to an opinion on the matter.
posted by Bobby on
Opine all you want, it’s Israeli soldiers that will take care of the Hezbollah problem.
And I support them, America is at war against terrorism, and we need all hte help we can get. Better for Israel to kill hezbollah than for another 9/11 here, or the USA to bring back the draft.
posted by Thomas Horsville on
“It’s Israeli soldiers that will take care of the Hezbollah problem.”
Israel is certainly free to waste its resources on hopeless military campaigns but not to put in jeopardy America’s military forces and treasury.
posted by kittynboi on
No, I’m not in to raves or going to clubs. I think it’s annoying. The only club I ever went to regularly was a goth club, but that was long ago.
How did I “shift”? Was I in support of lebanon before and in support of israel now?
Also, you never addressed the inconsistency of you whining about left wing decay in relation to an article criticizing the Muslim world for homophobia.
You spoke as if you had not actually read the article and only assumed what it’s contents were.
“””” he shifts from left to right, trying to please everyone except me.””””
I think you’re taking this was too personally. I’m not going out of my way not to please you.
posted by Northeastboi Libertariantwink on
Come and get me, Bobby.
And honestly, really, name-calling? Puh-lease.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
Since American citizens always end up paying the bills of Israel’s military campaigns, I think they are entitled to an opinion on the matter.
Not really. We just shouldn’t be paying for any other country’s military campaigns, period.
posted by ETJB on
(1) ‘Bobby’ made some comments in the past that were clearly racist. The fact that he may be Hispanic does not mean that he cannot be a racist against some other class of people.
(2) The Bush Administration has signed the death warrant on Iraqi gays.
(3) I do live in the Midwest, but it would be foolish to make assumtions about my skin color, ethnicity, or history.
posted by ETJB on
(1) Yes, Lebanon does have a fairly visible ‘gay scene’, but the criminal and civil law is still very homophobic.
(2) Terrorist acts and the retribution therin tend to result in power being handed over to politicans that have no interest in peace.