Steve Chapman, a libertarian-minded syndicated columnist, explains why Conservatives Are Losing on Gay Rights:
more than half of Americans endorse either gay marriage or civil unions, which are marriages in all but name. Two states (Vermont and Connecticut) have legalized civil unions, without attracting 1 percent of the attention that has gone to Massachusetts. Once considered a radical step, this has taken on the look of a soothing, sensible compromise. ...
A more telling sign is the huge shift in opinion on discrimination. ... That evolution suggests attitudes on gay marriage are likely to grow more positive, not less. The battle for tolerance has largely been won among young people, who will be guiding policy in the not-too-distant future.
He also points to an interesting, and welcome, fact about opposition to gay adoptions:
Growing tolerance presents a huge obstacle to another cause of social conservatives. Earlier this year, they were trumpeting a multi-state push to ban adoption by same-sex couples-to prevent homosexuals from "experimenting on children through gay adoption"...
It seemed a shrewd and logical follow-up to the state-by-state offensive against gay marriage. Since Florida was alone in explicitly outlawing adoptions by same-sex couples, the opponents of gay adoption thought they had a target-rich environment-not to mention a winning issue with voters.
But they had a little problem launching the campaign. Kent Markus, director of the National Center for Adoption Law and Policy at Capital University Law School in Ohio, says that in state after state, "it peeked above the surface and got knocked right back down. Nothing has gained any momentum anywhere in the United States."
Time is on our side, which is why running to liberal courts to mandate full marriage equality-which in many states has provoked support and passage for anti-marriage (and anti-civil union) state constitutional amendments-is not a good strategy. Allowing the democratic (small "d") process to work through representative institutions will assure us eventual victory, without provoking a premature backlash that will freeze in place statewide marriage bans for generations to come.
29 Comments for “Time Is on Our Side.”
posted by Lori Heine on
People like to think that when they change their minds about something, it was their own idea and not somebody else’s. This is another reason why it is good policy for us to “cool our jets” and let the tide of popular opinion continue to shift in our favor.
posted by Tom Scharbach on
It might be good tactics to \\”cool our jets\\”, but I think we need to keep a few things in mind:
(1) First, there is a reason why courts have declared bans on marriage equality unconstitutional, and will continue to do so. The reason is that the legal equation is not rocket science. Government has an obligation under our constitutional system to treat all citizens equally unless it has a good reason not to do so. And, as the high courts in four states have pointed out in four rulings spanning eight years, the reasons advanced by social conservatives to treat gays and lesbians unequally do not rise to \\”good\\”. \\”Lame\\” would be a lot better description, to be blunt about it.
(2) Second, the push for same-sex marriage has never come from the GBLT \\”leadership\\” or \\”gay activists\\”, like the HRC or GLAAD, or even Lambda Legal. It has come from the bottom up, from ordinary gay and lesbian couples who are directly harmed by the bans on same-sex marriage, and who have had enough. The bottom up push started in 1974, in Minnesota, and has never stopped, although it was thwarted again and again until the Hawaii decision. And with predictable results, I might add. Every time gay and lesbian couples have gone to court, with little or no support from the \\”leadership\\” other than hand wringing, and gained some traction, the GBLT \\”leadership\\” has issued calls for caution, prudence and adoption of a \\”sensible\\” strategy. Even today Wolfson and Lambda and the rest of the \\”leadership\\” is telling ordinary GLBT folk to \\”be cool\\” and \\”let us pick your shots\\” and \\”don\\’t risk a negative ruling\\”. But that has not stopped the bottom up push for same-sex marriage, and it isn\\’t going to stop now. The reason is simplicity itself. Gay and lesbian families are put at risk by the ban on same-sex marriage, and parents will do a lot to protect their children, including but not limited to ignoring calls for a \\”sensible strategy\\” and risking a backlash from social conservatives.
(3) Third, the backlash will, in time, like one of Harry Potter\\’s monsters, self-destruct or be slain. As Chapman points out, the social conservatives are already overreaching, pushing for bans on adoption, and the unreasoned and unreasonable nature of their bias is becoming clearer and clearer to more and more people. The increasingly shrill and violent language of social conservatives sews the seeds of both self-destruction and slaying. The best way to defeat social conservatives is to let them speak freely and loudly, early and often, just as the best way to defeat segregationists years back was to give the likes of Bull Conner full reign. Sooner or later, ordinary, fair-minded and sensible Americans will start to hear and absorb what social conservatives are actually saying about gays, lesbians and same-sex marriage, and that will be the beginning of the end of the backlash, just as the beginning of the end of segregation came about when the raw and ugly thinking behind segregation was forced out into the open. The arguments of the social conservatives against same-sex marriage will not survive the light of day in the court of public opinion, any more than the legal arguments of survived the cold, sharp knife of legal reasoning.
Civil unions are a practical next step in many states, like Wisconsin, where polls show that about 60% of citizens are opposed to same-sex marriage, but 55% of citizens favor civil unions. And that is not the end of the world. Better something than nothing.
But civil unions became \\”acceptable\\” only because ordinary gay and lesbian couples put on a push for same-sex marriage, ignoring the GBLT \\”leadership\\”, and to my mind, that is a good reason to keep the push on, full court. The fact that the specter of same-sex marriage scares the living bejesus out of social conservatives works in favor of GBLT equality, not against it.
My own view is that the battle for marriage equality has been joined, and that there is no turning back. Nobody is going to believe, any more, that gays and lesbians will settle, in the long run, for \\”seperate but equal\\”.
It is out of our hands, anyway. Ordinary gay and lesbian couples are not going to go away, are not going to sit quietly and wait for the \\”leadership\\” to make everything wonderful, and they are not going to stop pushing for marriage equality in the courts. The court cases are part of the landscape at this point, and we are going to have to deal with that fact.
posted by Lori Heine on
Tom, that is exactly what I have been saying for many months, now: just wind ’em up and let ’em go. The more obnoxious our self-appointed enemies get, the more quickly general public opinion will change in our favor. This will not happen, however, if we let shrill Left-Wing activists outshriek the homo-haters. One of the very reasons the public is more clearly hearing the ugliness of what our adversaries are saying now is that many of us have stopped distracting them from it. As ridiculous as it may seem, we are caught up now in an obnoxiousness-contest between the Left and the Right. And the "winning" side is the one that will ultimately lose. I still firmly believe that many of the causes of the Sixties were morally right. The problem was that those who advocated these causes couldn’t stop saying dumb things, or keep their own egos out of the way, long enough to keep the rightness of their issues at center-stage. To this day, all the Limbaughs and the Hannitys talk about is how loud, shrill, self-absorbed and unreasonable many Leftist activists were and still are. This is why many former liberals, who eventually lived long enough to become grown-up men and women, came to abandon the Left. I grew up admiring these young firebrands, and wanting to be just like them. But when I did become an adult, I realized that many of them were still children. Their hysteria and unreason often causes more harm than help to those whose rights they champion. That’s why I find libertarianism the most attractive option. It reconciles the "head sense" of the better conservatives with the "heart" of the liberals.
posted by Lori Heine on
This reminds me of a rerun of “All in the Family” that was on just last night. Archie is spouting off at the bar against his liberal son-in-law, “Meathead’s” views. He is overheard by some “like-minded Americans,” who think he’s one of them and invite him to a meeting.
It turns out to be a meeting of the Klan — though Archie doesn’t realize this until they put on their white hoods. Then he knows that he wants nothing to do with them. The revulsion he sees in the eyes of his wife, his daughter and even “the Meathead” wakes him up to the evil he’s been cozying up to. Especially when these new buddies of his begin preparing to burn a cross on his daughter’s family’s lawn.
Many Americans today are waking up to the ugliness and evil of the anti-gay agenda. They see how cozy they have become to the monster, and they are recoiling from it.
I still have enough faith in the decency of most Americans to believe that it will prevail.
posted by Randy R. on
I always see people on this website complaining about the “shrill Left.” And they often say that if the Left would just tone things down, we and our arguments will find greater acceptance from people.
This argument might have some merit, but I don’t think in the long run it affects much at all. The Hannity’s and Limbaugh’s of the world would hate the 60s just as much if they were all law abiding clean people. They hate the ideas and the people, but making the people nice will still leave them with hating the ideas!
Some people are swayed by this. however, I believe most Americans believe in fairness and equality. Most Americans can separate out sound reasoned arguements and bullshit. Most Americans can separate out a good idea espoused by a kook.
Good ideas live by themselves, and I think it underestimates the intelligence of most people to think that on real issues, the packaging counts more than the content. During the civil rights struggle, there were Black Panthers and other groups that advocated violence to get civil rights. Most people abhorred the violence, but agreed with the message.
in other words, in the end, Americans did the right thing, regardless of the kooks.
posted by Randy R. on
We should also continue the fight for gay marriage.
There is an argument that we should instead fight for civil unions, and once people get used to that idea, it will be easier to get full on marriage. I’m not entirely opposed to that idea, and it might be the best strategy.
Nonetheless, I see nothing wrong in pressing for gay marriage, even in the courts. If we have a right to it, they why NOT press it? Because it might offend some people? Listen — for some people, my very existence offends them. But they are a minority. At this point, the country is evenly divided on gay marriage, so there is actually plenty of support for it, and that support is growing. Part of why it’s growing is precisely because we gay people have forced the issue to be discussed, even among people who would rather not think about it.
Shortly after MA issued it’s edict, I knew there would be a strom of controvery. so I did the proactive thing: I wrote up a letter about my homosexuality, and why i support gay marriage, and I sent the letter to everyone of my relatives and straight friends. (Some relatives are deeply conservative, some are Mormon, some are fundamentalists). I told them that whatever their feelings on the issue, they should always remember that this is ME they are tallking about, not some abstract idea. I personalized it highly..
Everyone won fully supported me and said how much they appreciated my taking the time to write to them.
posted by Bobby on
Enough! Can somebody tell whoever posts the topics for discussion to stop talking about same-sex marriage?
I’m sick of the topic! Sick, sick, sick!
I’ve never had a relationship that lasted more than 3 weeks. So the LAST thing I want to hear is same-sex marriage.
Unless you want to propose a russian-groom-buying program, I don’t give a damn.
posted by Lori Heine on
“I’ve never had a relationship that lasted more than 3 weeks.”
Bobby, that really is too bad. Relationships can be a bitch, but the topic remains of considerable interest to the rest of us.
Not that there would likely be one, but can anyone imagine a debate about heterosexual marriage being effectively halted by one guy who stands up and shouts, “I’ve never had a relationship longer than three weeks, so I dont want to talk about this”?
I’m still single, myself, but I find the fact that same-sex couples are at least beginning to move toward legal marriage exciting. It brings me hope.
The next man you meet might be the right one, Bobby. Just don’t give up.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
One reason why relationships might be hard for many gay people to engage in is the fact that the frameworks in place which encourage commitment are still forming for gays — whereas they’re old and creaky and long-established for heterosexual types.
posted by Randy R. on
Well, Bobby, I’ve never been in a real long term relationship either, and I’m 44. So I went to a therapist to figure out if the problem is me, or something else.
Turns out it’s me. After two years, we are getting down to hard work — I didn’t know I had so many issues!
My point? Whether we have problems or issues, is OUR problem, not everyone else’s. And we shouldn’t hold back other people’s happiness merely because we haven’t acheived it ourselves.
posted by kittynboi on
I’ve only had one relationship, but it lasted a year or so.
posted by Carl on
It\\\\\\\\\\\\\\’s very tempting to say that the lack of gay adoption bans are due to a positive climate for gays, but I don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\’t think that is the case. This has been a rough 2 years for the GOP. If they were in a better position politically, these bans may have gained more prominence. There likely will be one next year in Georgia, and I won\\\\\\\\\\\\\\’t be surprised if they come up in Wisconsin, Ohio, Missouri, and Tennessee as well.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
It’s good being a libertarian in such circumstances, Carl, because we can be confident in the catastrophic failure and quick repeal of such idiotic measures as adoption bans.
Already, the Catholic Church’s decision to shut down its adoption agency in Massachusetts has resulted not in people blaming the homos for “forcing” the Catholics out of business — but most people (including Catholics) slamming the bishops for allowing their hate politics to override the needs of children.
I also hope that people of all political persuasions who are against discrimination learn to play dirty. These amendments and laws, after all, are super-dirty. We need a good cop, bad cop strategy involving both high-minded debate in the public square and exposure of the own marital and parental problems of the people who sponsor or advocate the bill.
posted by Bobby on
Your comments, Lori and Randy R, are well taken. It’s not that I’m giving up, I’m just very cynical about the whole prospect.
My life experiences with the dating gay scene have left me rather bitter and angry. I’ve approached the problem as a marketeer, I’ve done everything to define my target audience, reach them, tried thousands of different types of e-mails, learned what to say at gay.com, have read 5 different books on gay dating, have tried healthy social groups, religion, with no success.
I used to dream of my own same-sex marriage, but you can’t have a wedding by yourself! And that’s what I’m afraid it’s gonna happen, they’re gonna legalize it and many gays will find themselves with no one to marry.
“the frameworks in place which encourage commitment are still forming for gays”
—I’ve been hearing that all my life. I no longer believe it, the frameworks are there, but nobody bothers to show up. Organize a social meeting at your local GLCC and maybe 20 people show up. Organize a wet underwear competition or a t-party, and 1,000 folks arrive.
I do envy straight men in one area. They can always use a mail order bride service, have a relationship with the kind of woman they could never get in America. So if they legalize same-sex marriage, I’m hoping there be some service like that for gay men who can’t get what they want.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
The first rule of a successful relationship is that it’s not just about you and what you want. A life partner is not something one orders like a martini or CD from Amazon. You have to be willing to compromise and accept some things in the other person which differ from your dream state.
Incidentally, is anyone else finding the anti-spam “protection” so difficult to read that it’s largely defeating the purpose of the protection? About 65% of the time it’s completely illegible — on machines at work and home.
You also have to approach the market from a position of optimistic nonchalance. You cannot be too intense, too serious, or especially too negative. Men pick up on that and they’re gone!
posted by Lori Heine on
I haven’t found the right person yet because, very frankly, I haven’t been looking very hard. I’ve been letting life occupy me (one parent just died, another is now dying, I have an estate to manage, yadda-yadda). These are essentially excuses, and at some point, I’ve got to decide I want a relationship bad enough to quit dating around and get serious about it.
Another reason, though, is that gay men and lesbians don’t have as large a pool of eligible prospects to draw from in the first place. Dating weirdos and losers is tiresome, and it’s hard to keep up the energy to go on believing. Straight people do get more support in keeping the faith than we do.
I wish I had a dollar for every blind-date and fixup I’ve had that didn’t go anywhere. All too often, she shows up at my door with nineteen piercings in her head alone, tattoos covering every visible inch of skin and a shaved head with purple stubble, then sits there at dinner raging against capitalist exploitation and raving about how The Goddess has liberated her inner Amazon Warrior-Princess. When I do find a normal woman, that alone is cause for celebration.
An occasional Sarah Lee chocolate cake binge can do wonders for your sanity, but I refuse to give up…I refuse to give up…I refuse to give up…
posted by Ed Brown on
BTW, anyone want to guess how well Mary’s book is doing in sales?
posted by Bobby on
” You have to be willing to compromise and accept some things in the other person which differ from your dream state.”
—Well, i agree with you. I do my best to compromise. But I find that many gay men don’t compromise at all. It’s like walking in a minefield, sooner or later, you hit a mine and lose your leg. If often find that the best thing I can do is say nothing, keep all my opinions to myself, let the other guy do most of the talking, pretend to be easy going, and after a while, I just get sick and blow the whole thing off. Gays play too many games, and although I’ve learned most of them, they bore me.
“I haven’t found the right person yet because, very frankly, I haven’t been looking very hard.”
—Can’t blame you. I looked extremely hard and found it to be just like direct mail, you’ve got to hit on a lot of costumers just to get a few responses.
posted by dalea on
Why am I not surprised at this?
Meeting someone who works with me is very difficult. I had one 7 year relationship, ending with his death. And one 3 year one, which ended when we tried to live together. Others lasted for as long as was needed. Sometimes 15 minutes is enough.
Of course, opening up to the Goddess both within and without can be very helpful. There were several very nice relationships that began at a Lesbian Witches Knitting Circle I was familiar with. Actually these gay religious events frequently do have eligible and somewhat sane people. Meet all sorts of very wonderful men at the Radical Faeries. The one thing that seemed to help most was making room in my life for someone to come in: having clear ideas of where he would fit in and how. And letting the space be available.
Agree, the so called ‘spam protection’ is useless. Is it in Cyrillic? Can’t really tell. AND IS IT CASE SENSITIVE? Which is useful to know.
posted by Randy R. on
Well, this really isn’t a dating advice board. But it just goes to show you — love and relationships are still highly important to lots of people, gay and straight.
I actually meet tons of really nice guys. It isn’t hard at all, at least in Washington, DC. I am involved in all sorts of things, like the filmfest, gay book clubs, music groups, and some purely social groups. the problem is that when you get a little bit older, you are less attractive to most men. And it’s my fault too — I find all these great guys, but I ‘m not so sexually attracted to them, so I don’t date them. But in every other respect, they would be wonderful partner material. Occasionally, I even find a guy I’m attracted to and like personally, but he doesn’t like me as much. Boo-hoo!
It’s an issue I have to overcome, of course, and I wish I had really been more sexually active when I was young and cute! (Was deep in denial back then). But I must look forward, not to the past, naturally, and although I don’t have a b/f, I really do have many wonderful friends who happen to be gay and lesbian!
posted by Randy R. on
But back to my original point — I know quite a few gay couples who have been together for many years, and no doubt would like to get married. For them, I fight.
But also, I fight for myself. It\\’s a dignity issue with me. When someone says that my love for another guy just isn\\’t as good as a straight couples, that makes me mad — it dehumanizes me. I don\\’t want half a cup of acceptance — I want a full cup!
Hate the graphics too. Learned that it IS case sensitive!
posted by Tom Scharbach on
Randy: “I know quite a few gay couples who have been together for many years, and no doubt would like to get married. For them, I fight. But also, I fight for myself. It’s a dignity issue with me. When someone says that my love for another guy just isn’t as good as a straight couples, that makes me mad — it dehumanizes me. I don’t want half a cup of acceptance — I want a full cup! ”
I fight for both reasons, but also for the kids, because I remember how hard it was growing up before Stonewall, with no awareness of what being gay meant, no awareness that gays weren’t diseased perverts, and no awareness at all that gays could live successful and fulfilling lives.
It is still tough for kids, but the progress we’ve made over the years has helped a lot, I think. The kids now know that there are other gays, that gays can and do have good jobs and fulfilling lives.
What we are missing, I think, is awareness of the model offered by gays and lesbians who enter into long term, often lifetime, relationships — gays and lesbians like my friends Tom and Steve who have been together 30+ years and raised three sons, Hanna and Miriam who have been together 25+ years and are raising three daughters and a son, John and Sam who have been together 30+ years and raised a son, Eugenia and Mary, who were together 60+ years until Mary died last year, and Ed and Raphaelo, who have been together 30+ years.
The gays and lesbians who “settled down” and live quietly have been almost invisible within GBLT circles and certainly outside GLBT circles, certainly in the rural areas like mine.
I think that the most interesting thing about recent years in the struggle for marriage has been that GLBT couples have come into focus for Americans — whether they like it or not.
posted by Bobby on
I don’t know what to say. The social groups I tried in the past did not encourage dating. The ones that did didn’t have too many people show up. I’m too out for the coming out group and since I’m so weird (don’t need to explain that one), I don’t think I’m gonna find a gay man that’s weird enough to like me.
“Well, this really isn’t a dating advice board”
—Exactly, and that’s what’s funny about our community. All this emphasis on marriage and so little emphasis on dating. Dating is hard work. Finding a date is can be as frustrating as finding a job. Catholics, Jews, Protestants, they all have single’s groups, a ton of them. In the straight community, finding a partner is everything. But go to MCC and you’ll see that even single men are hesitant. That’s what I find.
“When someone says that my love for another guy just isn’t as good as a straight couples, that makes me mad — it dehumanizes me. I don’t want half a cup of acceptance — I want a full cup!”
—Ha! I used to think like you. I wanted to be accepted. Now I don’t care. It’s fun being an outcast, you learn to look at the world with objectivity instead of idealism.
Besides, there’s nothing more dehumanizing than being in a gay bar, standing like a piece of meat, waiting for someone to talk to you and seeing that no one cares. And when you talk to others, they act like you’re invinsible.
And that’s the reality, not just for gays but everyone else, the people that can hurt you the most are the ones that have the most in common with you.
posted by dalea on
Bobby sez:I’m too out for the coming out group and since I’m so weird (don’t need to explain that one), I don’t think I’m gonna find a gay man that’s weird enough to like me.
Actually, yes, you do need to explain that one for us to understand your problem.
Would someone please explain the code for posting? Is it in Cyrillic? Is it case sensitive? This is annoying beyond words, like dealing with a bureaucracy.
posted by Bobby on
Well, most people know I’m weird because:
I’m openly gay, member of the NRA, hispanic, jewish, republican, an advocate of drug legalization who watches christian TV while supporting the legalization of prostitution, a defender of hate speech, blunt, a hardcore capitalist, a son of immigrants who doesn’t like illegal immigration, a supporter of the minutemen, politically incorrect and somewhat insensitive.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
Perhaps we need a new web site — IndegayDates.org. 😉
posted by dalea on
‘somewhat insensitive’ can be overcome. In fact, that would be a good name for this site.
posted by Lori Heine on
Bobby, instead of telling everybody you’re weird, why don’t you just say that you’re interesting?
You’ve got enough to talk about, when telling dates about yourself, to hold up your end of a very stimulating conversation. Who knows, maybe the guy across the table from you is sick of meeting the same sort of man over and over again? He won’t have that problem with you.
Instead of thinking of your life story as a negative, perhaps it’s time to recognize it as a potential asset.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
I agree, the most boring sort of date is with the formulaic liberal urban gay guy who views disagreement with his One True Way as “evidence of self-loathing or hatred for one’s fellow man.” I always chuckle when I hear gay men proudly announce they don’t date Republicans, Libertarians or independents because they’re all self-loathing and selfish, and then two minutes later talk about their vaunted commitment to diversity and understanding while telling us to give Howard Dean and Hillary Clinton “time to get educated on our issues” after they make some moronic anti-gay statement. 😉