I support school choice rather than pouring yet more taxpayer money down the endless rat-hole of union-dominated and bureaucratically mismanaged public (i.e., government) schools. But for the foreseeable future it's in exactly such miserable institutions where the vast majority of American youth will be forced to try to glean whatever education they might be fortunate enough to extract. Given this sorry circumstance, I think public schools should at least have the ability to insist on basic decorum and civility among their captive students.
Yet, in 1969, a liberal dominated Supreme Court, in Tinker v. Des Moines, ruled that free speech rights extended to students and so public schools could not restrict political speech, including arm bands worn in protest of the Vietnam War, unless such symbolic speech caused undue disruptions to school activities. Tinker has been tinkered with around the edges, but basically stands.
This bit of history is relevant because the Ninth Circuit now must decide whether a California sophomore named Tyler Chase Harper was unfairly sent home from his high school for wearing a t-shirt saying "Homosexuality is shameful." The overt sloganeering is certain uncivil, but is it also political speech protected by liberal jurisprudence? If so, then opponents of the t-shirt must prove it is a form of harassment that keeps gay students from learning in order to have it banned.
It would be much easier if schools were still able to simply insist on civil behavior and dress codes that excluded culture-war sloganeering.
Meanwhile, here's another public school culture-war skirmish. At Howell High School in Michigan, when the Diversity Club hung a rainbow flag in a hallway, it was allowed to remain despite a petition by Christian conservatives. That prompted these students to create a Traditional Values Club and produce their own flag. Now, faculty members have voted that both flags should be displayed only in classrooms during club meetings.
That sounds sensible, but let's see if one side or the other sues claiming their right to political speech was unduly infringed.
More. TCS Daily wonders if the 9th Circuit is creating preferential speech rights.
38 Comments for “More Schoolyard Brawls.”
posted by Avee on
So much for those complaining Steve only has been talking about gay marriage!
posted by jiber on
The rainbow flag promotes inclusion which is a value the school should support. A flag calling for traditional values is exclusionary and not in keeping with the school’s role in fostering a diverse environment that is welcoming for all students.
posted by Randy R. on
The issue isn’t ‘either/or.” Why can’t we have freedeom of expression AND civility? And speaking of educating students, what better way to educate them than to teach them about freedoms, and how they can be abused.
The ‘liberal’ court in Tinker was exactly correct. Students are citizens of the US and do not check their constitutional rights at the classroom door. Last time I checked, I didn’t see anywhere in the Constitution that the Bill of Rights applies only to people over the age of 18. It applies to us ALL.
Sometimes that’s messy. Sometimes people will actually say things that make us feel uncomfortable. Hey, grow up! That’s life in the big city! Or would you coddle our students and keep them in a protective bubble? How is THAT helping them become better citizens?
The answer to bad free speech is more free speech. The student who wears a t-shirt that insults gays can be a great teaching exercise: For gays, hey, this is what they will encounter in the real world. For them, what is the appropriate response? For the bigot, how would he like it if someone else wore a t-shirt he didn’t like, and wouldn’t that lead to incivility?
Everyone can learn from this, but suppressing teenaged discussion like it was a soviet republic is hardly the answer.
posted by Jim P. on
Funny that some liberals who support Tinker for political expression they like are against free political speech at school for conservatives (because it makes gay kids feel bad).
In fact, school hallways are not the place to fight the culture wars. The kids have enough problem becoming literate (and forget about math and science!).
posted by JimG on
I certainly haven’t come to any conclusions on this subject and Randy R, you certainly bring up some good points. From another perspective I sometimes think that one of the things we must learn while we’re young, is that we cannot go through life flailing our limbs or our mouths as we walk down the “hallways of the school of life”. School must teach us that we have to learn to live together, to respect together and that with freedom comes certain responsibilities. Kids (who come into this world wanting attention, food, etc. on demand) need to be taught to share, keep quiet when someone’s speaking, in other words restrain ones own wants and desires because one lives in a world with others. Schools are not democracies. And democracies have to be earned by those who learn to respect others in which that democracy is shared. There is value in restraint. (And I would apply that to EVERYONE who wants to come to school with a message on their t-shirt) That is an important component of the experiment of democracy. Kids need to be taught that.
posted by Bobby on
“A flag calling for traditional values is exclusionary and not in keeping with the school’s role in fostering a diverse environment that is welcoming for all students.”
—Oh, so you must be a diversity nazi. “Achtung! Ve don’t allow anyone to discriminate, specially you dirty christian scum.”
First of all, there’s nothing in the constitution that says everything has to be inclusive. Football teams aren’t inclusive, debate team isn’t inclusive, the yearbook is not inclusive. It’s all based on cliques.
And just like gays are allowed to have their own cliques, the same rights should be given to christians, conservatives, traditionalists, etc.
A “diverse environment” is nothing more than liberal code for government sponsored censorship. I’m sick of my fellow gays censoring other people. If I have to stand with the enemy in the defense of free speech and association, I will do it and proudly. I will not support wannabe nazis.
posted by Randy R. on
JimG: Amen, bro. Schools needs to teach people that although they have individual rights to say anything they like, a well functioning society allows for people of various viewpoints to live together in harmony. There is an inherent tension here between individualism and civility, and often times a balance needs to be struck. Where it is struck is often a decision made by society. This is, in my opinion, an important lesson to learn. Especially when one wants to keep a job….
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
I’m all for letting the conservative kiddies express themselves, as long as they’re willing to bear the brunt of the results of that expression, such as being derided as stupid, judgmental idiots.
The right wing always whines that it’s being “persecuted,” when the negative treatment it receives is a direct result of its own hate speech. Sure, it should have the right to say whatever it wants, but it shouldn’t demand a special right not to be criticized — which is inevitably what happens. The right-wing groups slam gays as noxious, going to hell, etc. and then they demand any group which criticizes them be banned or censored. Never fails.
posted by Bobby on
It’s the left-wing that demands the right not to be criticized. It’s not liberal newspapers that are banned on campus, but conservative ones. It’s not liberal groups that are banned in schools, but conservative ones.
Gays engage in plenty of hate speech, and the minute anyone responds, you call them a homophobe. You people tolerate nothing and then expect everyone to tolerate you.
posted by Regan DuCasse on
Context is everything.
Tyler Chase chose to wear is protest specifically on the Day of Silence demonstration. Gays and lesbians ARE a persecuted and often violated minority.
Physical assaults that lead to murder. Anti gay school bullying that leads to suicide, or sometimes mass shootings in schools, is a VERY serious issue that schools are compelled to address.
Tyler Harper’s statement is equivolent to condemning Jews on Shoah.
And any Christian who has the audacity to complain when doing so, will get no sympathy from me.
One’s expression carries with it, responsibility.
If you can’t take the responsibility, as in the case of Harper, you deserve what’s coming to you.
HE doesn’t belong to a class of people who don’t have enough support in the government, nor are really threatened any day of the week.
Shame on him, and everyone who encouraged him, to forget such a piece of moral ethics.
posted by Regan DuCasse on
Context is everything.
Tyler Chase chose to wear is protest specifically on the Day of Silence demonstration. Gays and lesbians ARE a persecuted and often violated minority.
Physical assaults that lead to murder. Anti gay school bullying that leads to suicide, or sometimes mass shootings in schools, is a VERY serious issue that schools are compelled to address.
Tyler Harper’s statement is equivolent to condemning Jews on Shoah.
And any Christian who has the audacity to complain when doing so, will get no sympathy from me.
One’s expression carries with it, responsibility.
If you can’t take the responsibility, as in the case of Harper, you deserve what’s coming to you.
HE doesn’t belong to a class of people who don’t have enough support in the government, nor are really threatened any day of the week.
Shame on him, and everyone who encouraged him, to forget such a piece of moral ethics.
posted by Bobby on
Gays are funny. If a queer gives a speech about rimming and fisting to high schoolers, they rush out to defend him. But if a straight man says a politically incorrect opinion, they talk about context and responsability and diversity.
posted by Randy R. on
Gee, Bobby, you sound just the right wingers who hate gays so much. Where exactly have gays ever given a speech about rimming and fisting to high schoolers?
If there is a class about sexual education, then it should include information about sex, both gay and straight. Inflammatory language, such as ‘fisting” and rimming should not be used, any more than saying ‘when a man fucks a woman in the ass….’ A rational discourse may proceed regarding oral and anal sex. That’s the job of the teacher. But to assume that gay people are teaching about rimming and fisting is accepting the worst lies of the right wing. I would expect more from gay people, frankly.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
It’s not liberal newspapers that are banned on campus, but conservative ones
So you’re arguing that a liberal gay newspaper would be welcome on the campus of Brigham Young University, or Liberty University, or Regent University, or Bob Jones University?
Sh’yeah.
Bobby, you sound just the right wingers who hate gays so much
I suspect it’s because this isn’t the real Bobby, more likely a troll. Bobby has, himself, said he’s gay and so probably wouldn’t use the term “you gays.”
posted by Bobby on
Those are private universities that don’t take government tax dollars. They can do what they want. That’s like asking an women’s college to accept men.
Anti-conservative discrimination occurs at plenty of PUBLIC universities, often by the faculty and student government stormtroopers.
As for the rimming thing, it was a big story from hte Boston Globe about a school sponsored gay conference for students in which those topics were discussed by a radical activists.
My point is you people are very quick to point fingers at others while never acknowledging your own community’s faults.
You people really need to get out of your liberal bubble and spend more time on the right, you’ll be shocked about what you learn about the gay community. If it was up to me, I would give all gay activists a lifetime supply of pot and extasy, maybe that way they’ll stop embarassing people like me.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
Those are private universities that don’t take government tax dollars.
Two comments:
1) Most of them do take government dollars in the form of scholarships, grants, and loans.
2) The private status of the University of Pennsylvania didn’t stop conservatives from ranting and raving about its speech codes. Ditto for Harvard and Yale. It would appear that only conservative private universities are entitled to doing whatever they want, sans criticism, as usual.
I like free speech, but I also like free association. What I dislike is hypocrisy.
spend more time on the right, you’ll be shocked about what you learn about the gay community
I don’t tend to look to the right for lessons on diverse communities. Really, the extreme right is just the mirror image of the extreme left — intolerant, narrow-minded, dogmatic, and stereotyping.
posted by Bobby on
Anyone can apply for a scholarship, grant or loan, I don’t see discrimination there.
Too bad you don’t look at the extreme right.
I on the other hand always go to “extreme” sites because they have the truth that the moderates try to hide in nice language. For example, today I went to a “progressive website” to discover lies about Hugo Chavez, and Cindy Sheehan calling the Boy Scouts a paramilitary organization and saying that soldiers shouldn’t get medals but corporate logos.
Take my advice, know your enemy. You might discover it’s not who you think it is.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
It’s rather presumptuous to assume that everyone who disagrees with you:
1) Must be a liberal;
2) Doesn’t know anything about the people with whom they disagree.
If you’re going to “progressive web sites” which cuddle up to Huge Chavez to get a sense about what people like me think, you’re really barking up the wrong tree.
And the other thing which annoys me to no end is that this concept that there must be an “enemy” to constantly fight. I don’t want to fight, I want to be left alone. I will fight only when some idiot — from the left or the right — decides he can manage my life better than I can.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
As for the rimming thing, it was a big story from hte Boston Globe about a school sponsored gay conference for students in which those topics were discussed by a radical activists.
Incorrect.
A session for gay students was held at a school by the GLSEN (Gay and Lesbian Student Education Network). In order to attend the session, the students had to have written parental permission. The session was an anonymous forum for students to ask questions about various issues.
The session was crashed by a pre-law student working for the Article 8 Alliance who masqueraded as a high school student.
The format was simple — a Q&A session with questions which were sensitive written down on papers and put in a box, to be read and answered.
The Article 8 party-crasher wrote up two questions: one on fisting and one on rimming. Both the questions were answered. During the entire thing, the Article 8 crasher illegally audiotaped the entire session and then they ran with it. “GLSEN discusses rimming at schools!” etc.
However, the record clearly shows:
1) The right wing lied when they claimed this was a school function for general student admission. It was not. It was an extracurricular after-school session which required parental permission to attend.
2) The right wing lied in order to get their man into the session, with him pretending to be a gay high school student with a “parental permission letter.”
3) The right wing dropped in questions into the hopper specifically designed to raise issues of rimming and fisting, and then lied, claiming that it was the GLSEN people who brought it up.
4) The right wing not only broke the law by unlawfully wiretapping the session, but they also exposed the students — who attended with a guarantee of anonymity — to general scrutiny by selling the tapes to consumers, effectively outing them.
5) The right wing lied in court and claimed they had permission to tape the sessions.
6) After the court found the man and the group guilty of illegal wiretapping and ordered the tape distribution to halt, they claimed their “freedom of speech” was being stopped by a “gay conspiracy,” rather than accepting they don’t have a special right to break the law.
So yes, there are lying, prevaricating activists targeting our students who love to discuss rimming and fisting. They’re not the GLSEN folks though — they’re the right wing activists.
posted by Hershel on
So that’s the story GLSEN is telling. Fine, what about the allegations that whoever answered the questions about rimming and fisting didn’t discourage the practice or mentioned the dangers of such activities? Why answer the question when such question was clearly innapropriate for a group of underage students?
Where there’s smoke, there’s fire. Article 8 crashed the party, they might have played dirty, but GLSEN felt into their traps.
Did you know that GLSEN supports plays like The Vagina Monologue, a play where one of the characters is an adult lesbian talking about sex with a minor lesbian?
Dude, I’m glad I don’t do “damage control” for the gay community. This community is a PR nightmare! You better pray the liberal media stays sympathetic, because the day they start reporting the truth, we’re in trouble.
Then again, maybe I’m wrong. All I have to do is tell my conservative friends that I’m “not like those other gays.”
posted by Bobby on
Sorry, I meant to post as “Bobby.” “Hershel” is my other debate name, for a different website.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
what about the allegations that whoever answered the questions about rimming and fisting didn’t discourage the practice or mentioned the dangers of such activities
What are the dangers of such practices? Why should they discourage a practice rather than simply answer the question about what it is?
Are they supposed to discourage oral and anal sex as well?
Did you know that GLSEN supports plays like The Vagina Monologue, a play where one of the characters is an adult lesbian talking about sex with a minor lesbian?
And did you know that Article 8 supports publications like the Bible, a book where a man’s two daughters get him drunk and then have sex with him?
Gosh, this hyperbole thing is so easy.
posted by Bobby on
Fisting can cause long term damage to the color, forcing some men to wear diapers. Rimming is a good way to contract Hepatitis-B and other diseases.
They can’t be compared to oral and anal sex. As for the Bible, the bible condemns what Noah’s daughters did. Part of the bible is commandments, the other part is history, things people did back then, right or wrong.
posted by raj on
I see that Bobby is again blathering on a topic about which he knows nothing. The controversy about the GLSEN workshop is described at length in an article on the Bridges-Across web site here and it is clear that the right wingnuts pretty much lied all the way around.
I don’t know whether GLSEN endorses The Vagina Monologues and don’t particularly care, but so what if they do? Bobby’s objection that the play consists of an older lesbian talking to a younger lesbian about sex suggests that he believes that older people should never talk to younger people about sex, which is preposterous.
posted by Audrey on
Bobby, are you Jewish?
posted by Audrey on
Bobby, are you Jewish?
posted by Audrey on
I double posted, sorry.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
Rimming is a good way to contract Hepatitis-B
So is deep kissing.
I demand GLSEN explain that deep kissing can kill!
posted by Hershel on
Yeah, I’m jewish. Why you ask? You’re not stereotyping jews as liberal I hope.
posted by Hershel on
Gays accused of intolerance in Provincetown. Read it on the Boston Globe.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/07/14/a_new_intolerance_visits_provincetown/
posted by Audrey on
No Bobby, it’s because your (other) name is Hershel.
posted by Audrey on
Bobby, are you Orthodox?
posted by Avee on
Back to Steve’s posting (and away from the Bobby-bashing): The faculty in Michigan only banned the flag wars in the hallway once the conservatives raised their banner. They were fine when it was just the diversity crew. But when conservatives wanted the same expressive opportunity, then all flags had to do.
Revealing, no?
posted by Bobby on
I’m not orthodox, I’m not reform, I’m just a non-practicing center-right, somewhat libertarian gay conservative. My real name isn’t Hershel either. Hershel is a secret identity I used somewhere else.
Avee, you raise a revealing point, but for many gays. Gays are always right. Conservatives are always wrong. They are making the same mistake some blacks make. They don’t criticize each other but rather the critics. They buy into identity politics to the point where they’re always criticizing anyone but themselves.
There’s nothing wrong with defending the gay community, but I rather do it in a conservative forum than in a place like this. indegayforum should be a place where we can look at our community with honesty instead of saying “damn christians” all the time.
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
Who is “we?”
I speak only for myself. I find communalism on both “sides” to be a collossal bore.
posted by Audrey on
Bobby, why did you make Hershel your “secret identity”?
posted by Bobby on
Audrey, “Hershel” is a name I use at a more rightwinger forum. Where by the way, the straights are up in arms about that story of heterophobia and jamaicanphobia in provincetown. So now I’m doing my best to defend gay bigotry against others on the basis that every group has outcasts and gays shoudn’t be expected to be any better. I don’t think they’re gonna buy it. One of the posters wants to shoot gays, I just pray his future victim is armed. I’m sick of sexy gay bashing victims. It’s hard enough to get a date, i’ts worse when you have less men to choose from.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/07/14/a_new_intolerance_visits_provincetown/
posted by Northeast Libertarian on
the straights are up in arms about that story of heterophobia and jamaicanphobia in provincetown
I don’t know what’s funnier, the whiny bitch who signed the anti-gay petition being “heartbroken” at being confronted over it, or the fact that “Bobby/Hershal/Avee/etc.” is suddenly completely on board with politically-correct left-wing concepts like “hate speech forums,” etc.
When we note there’s not a dime’s worth of difference between Democrats and Republicans, we’re not just making a cheap point — we’re pointing out the truth. Whatever’s convenient at the moment, no matter how well it ties into ideology, is what the GOP pursues.