Adam Lambert’s Hypocrisy

by Jennifer Vanasco on November 25, 2009

Yes, Adam Lambert. You're right.

Hiphop artists and women get away with salacious performances all the time without an uproar. Of course, there was that famous Madonna-and-Britney kiss that caused a stir, but that was likely because the artists were - well, Madonna and Britney.

And yes, Adam Lambert, your performance on ABC's American Music Awards this week was not really all that raunchy. A kiss is a kiss, and there's nothing wrong with that. I could have done without you sticking a guy's head in your crotch spontaneously, but it happened so quickly, and in the midst of so many other things, that if the dancer didn't mind, I'm not sure "offensive" is what I'd call it.

What I'd call it, instead, is misguided.

Here's my problem.

You told Out magazine that you didn't make a big deal out of your sexual orientation during American Idol once pictures of you kissing a man had been exposed because: "I don't understand why it has to be about my sexuality. I'm just not going to talk about it one way or another. . . . And then when those pictures came out, I was like, you know what? I thought maybe I'll just own it and say, 'Yeah, I'm gay.' But I didn't want to label myself."

That's interesting, Adam Lambert. When you were worried about winning a contest, you didn't want to openly attest to being gay. (And, in fact, your people were worried that you would seem "too gay" on Out's cover.) BUT, when you wanted to make a splash in public, when you wanted to get noticed - suddenly you were all about gay sexuality.

And so my problem is with the timing.

You see, Adam Lambert, you may say that "I'm not trying to lead the fucking way for the civil rights movement that we're in right now," but the fact is that we ARE in a struggle for our civil rights and you are a pop culture figure (thanks in no small part to the support of gays and gay allies.)

We are in a dangerous moment. Our political allies are quickly backing away from us, thanks to losses on gay marriage in California and Maine and the Democratic loss of the governorship in New Jersey.

Whereas just over a year ago it seemed like gay marriage was an inevitable wave sweeping the country - and a tsunami in New England, New Jersey and New York - now it feels like the tide has turned. The hate crimes bill victory was followed by a vicious hate crime in Puerto Rico. We have hearings on ENDA, which could go either way. We have Don't Ask, Don't Tell hearings which are being put off until 2010. We have a President who isn't sure he is our friend.

And what is the mainstream most worried about, Adam Lambert? Why are they afraid of our partnerships, our service to our country, our working lives, our families? They are worried because they think gay life is exactly what you portrayed on the American Music Awards: focused on the kind of sex that turns people into animals (almost literally, in this case, with crawling dancers leading you on leashes), geared toward enticing children (ABC is a network owned by Disney, for heaven's sake), degrading, rapacious, empty.

This is why mainstream America votes against gays, Adam Lambert. Not because of people who have families and jobs and bills and weddings. Because of people like you, who use sexuality thoughtlessly in order to advance your own agenda, instead of thinking about the very real consequences your actions will have on others' civil rights.

If you were a private citizen, this wouldn't matter. But you are not. You are able to be openly gay thanks to people who did, in fact, make it their life's work to "lead the fucking way for the civil rights movement." You dishonor them - and you hurt us - by pretending otherwise.

33 Comments for “Adam Lambert’s Hypocrisy”

posted by Jorge on November 26, 2009

I don’t think it was spontaneous.

I’m happy you’re putting Adam Lambert in his place, but as a young person who doesn’t like the word “gay” myself, I think he has a point.

Growing up homosexual in a homophobic society but into a gay-affirming social environment has its quirks. Adam Lambert formed his social views on himself and homosexuality long before he became politically aware, and I don’t think he’s been very influenced by rest of gay society. This would be in my view a good thing, but I think it assumes too much to expect Adam Lambert’s path won’t make him an enemy of the gay establishment. He may have a personal agenda and worldview that is “queer”-affirming for himself, but defines being gay in a way that is totally alien to the gay rights establishment.

Besides, by this time he’s only the latest splash in a line of gay idols. If we don’t have Lambert on our side, so be it. The diversity will help us.
posted by Kewl on November 26, 2009

Crabs in a barrel. And Miss Jennifer has just appointed herself chief crab. She says that the reason “the mainstream votes against gays,” is because of gay antics on TV. But heterosexual society put gays in jail, treated them for mental illness, bashed them, and often killed them, before they ever saw a single gay kiss on TV. The real reason is three thousand years of anti-gay indoctrination. You don’t wipe that out overnight. You go Adam! Don’t let this crab pull you down, shake her off into the muck where she belongs.
posted by Bobby on November 26, 2009

“I could have done without you sticking a guyâs head in your crotch spontaneously, ”

—Why? Madonna did it. What’s wrong with a gay man showing a little gay sexuality?

“They are worried because they think gay life is exactly what you portrayed on the American Music Awards:”

—Do people think black life is what they see on the gangsta videos? I’m politically incorrect yet I would never judge black people by the antics of 50 cent.

“focused on the kind of sex that turns people into animals (almost literally, in this case, with crawling dancers leading you on leashes),”

—Marilyn Manson has done worse and Madonna already had her s/m period. We don’t need Lambert to be another Elton John who sings about loving women while sleeping with men.

“geared toward enticing children (ABC is a network owned by Disney, for heavenâs sake), degrading, rapacious, empty.”

—ABC also shows Desperate Housewives which features murder, adultery, alcoholism, drug selling and using, breaking and entering, arson, lying to the police, vandalism, two underage minors having sex wtih married women… In fact, the gay couple on that show is the most moral of the bunch.

Moreover, the AMA was broadcasted at 10pm which is a time that allows “indecency.” That’s why ABC isn’t going to get a fine, the pro-gay republican on the O’reilly Factor, Margaret Hoover, argued that point well and defended Lambert’s antics. Talk about irony, a straight pro-gay marriage republican female defends Lambert while a gay writer attacks him, sad.

“This is why mainstream America votes against gays, Adam Lambert. Not because of people who have families and jobs and bills and weddings. Because of people like you, who use sexuality thoughtlessly in order to advance your own agenda, instead of thinking about the very real consequences your actions will have on othersâ civil rights.”

—Bullcrap, they vote against gays because they don’t like change. It’s the same way I feel when Obama proposes public health care or cap and trade. Besides, our sexuality is just as valid as the sexuality of straight women who kiss women for the amusement of men.

Lambert is desensitizing people about same-sex affection. Don’t you want to live in a world where images of men kissing men are as accepted as images of women kissing women? That’s like telling interracial couples not to hold hands or kiss in public!

“If you were a private citizen, this wouldnât matter. But you are not. You are able to be openly gay thanks to people who did, in fact, make it their lifeâs work to âlead the fucking way for the civil rights movement.â You dishonor them â and you hurt us â by pretending otherwise.”

—He dishonors them? Harvey Milk would be proud of him. All Harvey ever wanted was for gays to come out, well, Lambert has come out, nobody’s gonna think he’s straight after they saw him kiss a guy and place his crotch in front of a guy’s face.

Besides, we already have enough gay activists. If Lambert celebrates his sexuality with his music and lyrics he’ll do much better than being yet another Hollywood celebrity talking about gay marriage. Americans don’t like it when celebrities tell them what to do, they prefer to see them lead by example. It’s the difference between Britney Spears buying a hybrid vs. telling me to buy a hybrid.
posted by gloria on November 26, 2009

Now, the media is reporting that Adamâs antics have divided the community! So whoâs actions are more hurtful? a Glam-rocker doing what he does, or a LGBTQ journalist indulging in her own homophobia to slam his actions? Should Adam let homophobes dictate what he does on TV? She is being quoted as being a spokeperson for the community. She doesnât speak for me. And now her words are being used by the straight media to create a “story” about how divided we are. See? It doesn’t matter how “acceptable” you are, your words/art/life can always be used by an enemy to discredit a population.

The double-standard that Jennifer Vanasco indulges here is shocking, and more offensive than anything a queer glam-rocker can put on stage. Basically, sheâs putting the idea forward that we Queer people need to act more straight and moral so that Queer people can win the fight to get married. Considering that straight people have no moral âtestâ when they get married, and that the actions of sexually-charged rock & rollers of the last decades have had zero impact on hetero marriage, her argument is fatally flawed. She merely reinforces the homophobia that we are already coping with, and the whole misplaced concept of a âmoral guageâ that gets applied to us.

Adam is a glamrocker. What he did was take the standard rock & roll macho male swagger, and Queered it up. I say, about time! What he is achieving by taking a typically hetero male archetype and turning it on its head, is smart, political, and timely.

Remember â it was the outrageous Queens of the world that started fighting back first. Most of you owe what rights you have to people who refused to be anything other than what they truly were. Do you want to tell those Drag Queens to stop wearing dresses, because some homophobe might use that image to reinforce a stereotype and stop some Queer folk from getting married? P

Adam rocks.
posted by Kee on November 26, 2009

Oh, you are so misguided it is breath taking.

Was Lambert’s performance lewd? Yeah, pretty much. Over the top? Perhaps. Outside of the mainstream of the perform class in which he operates? Absolutely not.

More importantlyâ¦ and disturbinglyâ¦you are advocating pre-Freidan/ âUncle Tomâ -ism.

An analogue of your advice, circa 1955, would be to tell all African Americans to paint their faces white into order to present an ‘acceptable” face to the dominant majority. Or, in the 1960s, telling women that should they be just a bit more pliant and understanding of the stresses and needs of the men in the âGrey Flannel Suitsâ, they might be able to secure some consideration of a raise in pay from 50% of that of men to 55%.

You position is just overwhelming, if you sit back and think on it.

What freedom do we gain by being homogenized to Middle America instead of being proudly homosexual in Middle America?

I am fortunate. I am an American living in Canada, legally married to my same-sex partner. I can tell you that this was not achieved because the Canadians around us are more tolerant, intelligent people; it happened because some, then more, then a lot, of gays simply started living their lives openly. Neighbours. Colleagues. Friends. Employees.

Some of us were invisible and passive (what you seem to advocate). Others, demanding dykes and fierce flamers.

And some like Lambert, just being themselvesâ¦lewdness and all.

Just climb down from your alter of âoh my gosh, we canât be too gayâ and trust.

Or go work for Better Housekeeping; you seem to want to keep things just too tidy for the real world.
posted by Jimbo on November 26, 2009

Hey Jennifer, let me get this straight (pardon the pun): the gay rights movement (which observed its 40th anniversary this past June), surviving Anita Bryant’s crusade, AIDS, organized religious opposition, etc. will come crashing down and wither away because of (drum roll please): A glam rocker’s risque performance on a televised awards show. WTF? Come on, Jenny baby. The gay rights movement is stronger than that. Really. For our cause to truly bite the dust would take a retrenchment & backlash that not even our biggest enemies could imagine and would not be possible in a free country such as ours.
posted by Bobby on November 27, 2009

Was Lambert’s performance lewd? Yeah, pretty much.

—I think that’s a very strong word. According to the legal dictionary, lewd means:

1. inclined to, characterized by, or inciting to lust or lechery; lascivious.

2. obscene or indecent, as language or songs; salacious.

3. Obsolete. a. low, ignorant, or vulgar.

b. base, vile, or wicked, esp. of a person.

c. bad, worthless, or poor, esp. of a thing.

Is that how you characterize Lambert’s work?

I agree with the rest of what you wrote, but I just don’t think his performance was lewd. I think it was sexual, erotic, risque, charged, exciting, and groundbreaking.

Of course, sometimes I forget that this is a country where some people pledge virginity until marriage, wear purity rings, and now there’s an up-an-coming christian movement for “pure fashion” where the girls wear sensible dresses, no miniskirts, no tank tops, and have this idea that mean won’t look at them as sex objects if they dress like June Cleaver.

So I can understand that for them Lambert’s performance would be lewd since these are the kind of people that think their own sex organs are lewd.

What I can’t understand is why you would call it lewd? And frankly, you’re not the only gay man calling it lewd.

Tell me, when you go to an art gallery do you ever see naked men on the frames? When you go to a movie do you ever see male full frontal nudity for more than 2 seconds if they even bother to show it? Don’t you realize that we live in a male-hating culture that punishes male expressions of sexuality and thus wants to make you think that they are lewd?

You ever seen the movie Showgirls? In that film the protagonist vagina made at least two appearances, not to mention the countless shots of her boobs. My own parents consider that film “artistic” just because it had great dance numbers, they did not care about the nudity. Why? Because it involved women and the world is used to celebrating women.

Lambert had the guts to celebrate men, he’s not another closet-case Ricky Martin using surrogate women to breed, he’s not Clay Aiken hiding his sexuality until he finally had a child and his career was mostly dead. I know it’s tough to be comfortable with male expressions of sexuality in a heterosexist anti-male culture. I know Calvin Klein replaced a billboard featuring a woman and 4 men with one of just a man and a woman. I know there are few women that want to see their boyfriends playing with other men yet lots of women who are willing to try a threesome with another bimbo. But if we call what Lambert did lewd, we’re calling ourselves lewd.
posted by shelly on November 27, 2009

wow, can’t believe what i just read here.
posted by Mary T on December 1, 2009

Adam is a beautiful soul. for you to think otherwise, you haven’t seen the whole picture. I dont think its right to have to “act straight” in order to be accepted by mainstream society.. thats asking Adam to go back into the closet. now really, I would not want it, and I’m a str8 woman saying this.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on December 2, 2009

I do so love how all the gay people here are arguing that promiscuity, lewdness, and public indecency are a necessary requirement of being gay, and that to criticize someone who does all of these things is being an “Uncle Tom”.

Classic case in point:

What freedom do we gain by being homogenized to Middle America instead of being proudly homosexual in Middle America?

You are making it clear that homosexuality is incompatible with Middle American values, beliefs, and laws.

Since you choose to state that all homosexuals behave in the workplace, in the churches, and in the schools as did Adam Lambert on stage, you should be treated accordingly.

Your problem is that you cannot separate a person’s behavior from their sexual orientation. This is what leads you to defend reprehensible and foolish behavior simply because the person is gay.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on December 2, 2009

I dont think its right to have to “act straight” in order to be accepted by mainstream society

Which part of Lambert’s behavior do you support — promiscuity, public oral sex, or being led around on a leash humping legs like an animal?

You seem to be under the impression that acting like a stupid, idiotic slut on stage is something normal and to be expected for gay people. Why is that? Do you believe that gay people are inferior? Do you support them behaving like fools because that reinforces your beliefs and allows you to feel better about how “tolerant” you are?
posted by Bobby on December 2, 2009

“Which part of Lambert’s behavior do you support — promiscuity, public oral sex, or being led around on a leash humping legs like an animal?”

—All of it. It’s not different than a black rapper sorrounding himself with white women, or Madonna singing “Material Girl” while men in tuxedos carry her. Lambert is an artist and his making same-gender affection part of his art. Kudos for that!

Straight sexuality is always glamorized, there’s even a rock group called “Boys like Girls.” Lesbian sexuality is glamorized, so why not gay male sexuality?

Why must Lambert become yet another sexless Clay Aiken? Or what was the name of that guy who sang “I want your sex” and got outed after the police caught him trying to get sex in a public bathroom?

I’m sick of celebrating straight actors who play gay roles, I’m sick of seeing Keith Ledger treated like a hero for acting in Brokeback Mountain. I’m glad that for once I have a gay artist I can admire, a gay artist who doesn’t bow to the pressures of heterosexual society. That’s something worth celebrating.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on December 4, 2009

It’s not different than a black rapper sorrounding himself with white women, or Madonna singing “Material Girl” while men in tuxedos carry her.

Perhaps you’d better explain that one. How is a black man having white women around him on the same level as oral sex on stage? How is a woman being carried around by men even in the same ballpark as being led around on a leash humping legs in front of TV cameras?

Lambert is an artist and his making same-gender affection part of his art.

Um, no. I can tell you from personal experience that “same-gender affection” does not constitute public oral sex, promiscuity, or leading people around on leashes. But then again, I’ve never thought that being gay was a license to do such things publicly.
posted by Bobby on December 5, 2009

“Perhaps you’d better explain that one. How is a black man having white women around him on the same level as oral sex on stage?”

—Fine, you win that one. However, when Madonna did the Vogue song on stage there’s a part that she lifts her skirt, puts it under a man’s face and says “vogue.” The implication is oral sex.

“How is a woman being carried around by men even in the same ballpark as being led around on a leash humping legs in front of TV cameras?”

—I’ve seen fashion advertising where a woman leads a man with a leash. It’s daring and provocative, what’s wrong with that? Why must we be so politically correct all the time.

I didn’t see the complaints when Britney Spears sings “womanizer” and spends the entire video flirting with that sexy guy.

“Um, no. I can tell you from personal experience that “same-gender affection” does not constitute public oral sex, promiscuity, or leading people around on leashes. But then again, I’ve never thought that being gay was a license to do such things publicly.”

—You ever seen the Girls Gone Wild? Moreover, you ever seen two women kissing a man at the same time in a bar? Or men taking body shots out of the bellies of women?

Why is it that hetros get away with all their PDA’s while we’re supposed to act like a bunch of sexless eunuchs?

Why is it that a naked vagina is art but an erected penis is porn? Why is it that Showtime rarely shows any male-full frontal nudity inspite of showing hetro porn movies that show everything but the penis?

Adam Lambert is revolutionizing culture, he’s giving women a chance to enjoy male on male action the way the hetro males enjoy female on female action. You should be celebrating his antics, because it’s thanks to people like him that someday we might be able to hold hands with our same-sex partners without fearing gay bashing.

Our sexuality is just as valid as theirs, I refuse to be ashamed! Whatever the breeders do we can do! And one more thing, I am tired of going to hotels and only finding straight or lesbian porn. Gays have rights to!
posted by Jorge on December 5, 2009

And one more thing, I am tired of going to hotels and only finding straight or lesbian porn. Gays have rights to!

Okay, I think that just about summed it up.

Do you really think… wait let me not waste my breath on that. Why should I care about getting rid of the double standard so that Adam Lambert can portray oral sex on stage when I think the standard is awful?
posted by Bobby on December 5, 2009

“Do you really think… wait let me not waste my breath on that. Why should I care about getting rid of the double standard so that Adam Lambert can portray oral sex on stage when I think the standard is awful?”

—Tell me, why do you hate artistic expressions of gay sexuality? Why is it so horrible for Lambert to push a guy’s face against his crotch? I remember dating a guy, I did that to him and he found it really sexy.

This argument is stupid, if Lambert had been a woman who had done that to another woman you think ABC would have blacklisted him from Good Morning America? Why is it that lesbians are hot and gays aren’t? Why must everything be about pussy?

A man needs a woman like a fish needs a bycicle. Lesbian-liberation is nearly finished, now it’s time for gay liberation. We gays have created the culture the breeders enjoy, we work at Vogue and Maxim, we design haute couture, we write music, films, advertising… We’re the super athletic ballet dancers and magnificent ice skaters. Yet our sexuality is rarely represented in music. Well, I’m tired of that and that is why I’m supporting Lambert’s efforts to destroy the stigma of gay sexuality.

And one more thing, I’m not watching ice skating again until they feature men skating with men. And the same with stupid dancing competitions! OUR SEXUALITY DESERVES REPRESENTATION!
posted by malvond on December 7, 2009

It may be misguided to be under the microscope and then complain when something you know could be controversial do blows up, but perhaps his aversion to a label refers more to what you’ve done in your article â that he is a gay artist, rather than just an artist, a gay man rather than just a man. It’s not his sexuality, but his gay sexuality. I can understand your point about respecting those who did fight for the rights that have been attained by the gay community thus far, but isn’t a reaction like this, to some degree, a positive result of the fight fought? That he, and a large percentage of a generation, really, struggle to see why, no matter how he flaunts his general sexuality and no matter how he dresses or speaks, that the word “gay” has to always enter the room before him?
posted by DragonScorpion on December 8, 2009

~”And what is the mainstream most worried about, Adam Lambert? Why are they afraid of our partnerships, our service to our country, our working lives, our families? They are worried because they think gay life is exactly what you portrayed on the American Music Awards: focused on the kind of sex that turns people into animals (almost literally, in this case, with crawling dancers leading you on leashes), geared toward enticing children (ABC is a network owned by Disney, for heavenâs sake), degrading, rapacious, empty.

“This is why mainstream America votes against gays, Adam Lambert. Not because of people who have families and jobs and bills and weddings. Because of people like you, who use sexuality thoughtlessly in order to advance your own agenda, instead of thinking about the very real consequences your actions will have on othersâ civil rights.” ~ Jennifer Vanasco

Excellent, excellent point. Thank you very much for making it, because it is so important for us to be mindful of this and it is, unfortunately, a minority view that tends to get the backs up of those in our community, as evidenced by some of the asinine comments here.

The majority of people here in the U.S. don’t have a pro-homosexual agenda nor an anti-homosexual agenda. A lot of them can apply a live and let live attitude to our struggle for equality, but a lot of them don’t really understand us. They’re ignorant of us because they haven’t been exposed to us on a personal level. They’ve been raised to generally believe negative things about homosexuality or even homosexuals in general, but then they’ve seen some positives and deep down probably believe that everyone should be treated equally. But when it comes to the application of this, the water becomes muddy.

So they’re hesitant to support things like same-sex couples marrying and adopting. It seems like too much too fast, and maybe, in their minds, there is some truth to what the people that argue in favor of “tradition” are claiming. So what could it hurt to put the brakes on for a while? Nothing, for them. But from our perspective it hurts a hell of a lot. They don’t have much to lose, we have everything to lose. Why should they go out of their way for us? Well, if they do, and we need them to, they’re going to need a better reason than ‘we can just do whatever we want and to hell with your moral standards and your backward traditions’…

Naturally, we don’t want to wait for full equality and we shouldn’t have to, but here is the uncomfortable reality â we’re going to have to wait, the real question is how long. This should be more obvious than ever, as you pointed out, the majority of the public is not signing on to same-sex marriage. In fact, its starting to look like a definite line has been drawn in the sand. In the meantime we have been making progress on other fronts; support for civil equality for homosexuals is more supported than ever, but there is an undercurrent which is growing into a backlash. And so, while we must push forward, and while we need to really hold our politicians to the fire, we need to address our own problems as well, and image is one of those.

When asking moderates why they don’t support same-sex marriage, I’ve come away with the sense that there are some negative views of us, doubts anyway, which linger on because of some negative experiences they’ve had or have heard of. This is not at all untypical for majority populations to feel about minorities, particularly when they are as misunderstood as we are.

Count Adam Lambert’s lewd conduct at the AMA among those negative experiences, and loud-mouth thugs like Perez Hilton. Their behavior confuses and displeases me and I’m gay, so I can appreciate what it’s doing to non-gay folks, even the moderates. And so when prompted to support our civil rights, and make no mistake about it, without them we don’t have a majority vote, many are feeling un-inclined to support us.

And this is why, though celebrities like Adam Lambert have a right to be as crude and in your face as they want to be, they do our community a great disservice when they do. Whether they or we like it or not, gay celebrities, in the eyes of the public do represent the gay community. That’s just reality, folks. There is no getting away from it. There never has been for any minority group and we’re no different.

So, yes, it truly does matter when some of these celebrities put their own selfish wants first and refuse to act more responsibly. We are at a critical point right now, a crossroads. Our equality movement can continue to go forward or we can stagnate and even take some significant steps back for the next decade or so. That is not acceptable to me.

Being defiant, belligerent, and militant in the face of the common majority’s sensibilities

is reckless and will bring counter-attack. So if we’re going to protest, boycott, get in people’s faces it better be for something damn worthwhile. Ask yourself, does Adam Lambert’s behavior really reflect any of us here? Does Britney’s raunchy videos reflect the average heterosexual person or couple? I don’t think so. Not me. So why defend it?

We need to get smarter about this. It’s easy to make a strong case for why we should be treated like everyone else when we can point to our similarities. But the more we draw attention to differences â differences I must add that don’t even reflect our community or what inherently makes us who we are â the more we pit the majority against us. And in that battle, we lose. We’re losing now.

I think we should all be promoting more positive and realistic images of us, we should be encouraging healthier behaviors. Be out and unashamed, resolute that the equality we seek is what we well deserve, but antics like Mr. Lambert’s is nothing to be proud of, nothing to glamorize. A little self-criticism never hurt anyone, and these days I think it could really help us. So, please, let’s not shout down those in our community who bother to point out areas in need of improvement.
posted by DragonScorpion on December 8, 2009

~”We’re the super athletic ballet dancers and magnificent ice skaters. Yet our sexuality is rarely represented in music. Well, I’m tired of that and that is why I’m supporting Lambert’s efforts to destroy the stigma of gay sexuality.” ~ Bobby

Quite the contrary, Adam Lambert’s militant attitude and his stunt at the AMA is not destroying the stigma of gay sexuality, it’s perpetuating it. The mainstream of people in the U.S. are not the least bit enlightened by his behavior, they are not left with a more endearing view of us, they’re not left thinking, ‘gee, I guess all those stereotypes about gays were wrong’ â quite the opposite on all those fronts. They’re left, largely, confused and disgusted. Exactly how I feel watching some of the people in our community defending it.

I would agree that there is hypocrisy in this country when it comes to showing lusty kisses between men and women, vs. a lusty kiss by lesbians, and the most controversial a lusty kiss between men. And we should call out the hypocrisy, but we should also be mindful of the fact that most folks aren’t gay, most folks aren’t interested in men kissing, we live in a hetero-normative society and we’re going to for a long time to come, so don’t expect most folks to embrace it, they won’t. And though we deserve equality we are a minority and belligerent confrontation will get us defeats.

Fight the fascists, don’t fight the moderates. Because if we lose them, or rather, if we don’t gain them, then you can kiss most legal equality and societal recognition of us goodbye. I don’t know about you, but I’m not about to sit back and do nothing as this happens because some of us think they’re being oh-so-post-modern by refusing to restrain some of their most animalistic behaviors.

You mentioned that there should be more representation of homosexuals in society. I agree, though I would add there should be more positive and more accurate representation of us. I, too, would like to see male or female couples engaging in ice & figure skating, now there is something to push for! Romantic scenes in movies is another. I see nothing wrong with sex scenes, though I prefer them to be tasteful. Should we embrace raunchy sex scenes? No, we should push for tasteful ones whether they’re hetero and homo.

You characterize Adam Lambert’s lewd (And yes, I know what the word means and it applies!) incident as celebrating men or male sexuality. I completely disagree. In no way, shape, or form was his act celebratory of homosexual relations. It was crude, tasteless, offensive, period.

You are correct that our sexuality is as valid as theirs, absolutely, and we should be firm on this. However, leading people around on leashes and forcing someone’s face in your crotch (publicly, I should add) has as much to do with homosexual orientation and relationships as it does with heterosexual orientation and relationships. I see absolutely no reason to glorify either nor regard them as ‘the norm’.

By the way, I caught your U2 reference. 😉
posted by DragonScorpion on December 8, 2009

One more thing. Clearly, due to the intellectual dishonesty of some of those who have posted here, I’m going to have to state what should be obvious. There is nothing in my comments, nor that I can see in the article, which could legitimately be construed as advocacy for not being “too gay”.

Adam Lambert’s behavior is NOT reflective of our community; he wasn’t “being gay” he was being crude, period. This is the same for Britney and friends, they aren’t being “straight” when they engage in sleazy, orgiastic videos. So before jumping to the same old tired accusations, think a little deeper first about the distinction between promiscuous behavior and sexual orientation because the two are mutually exclusive.

Furthermore, there is nothing, nothing, NOTHING in my comment or my attitude promoting gays to act more “straight”. Showing some decency and reverence for sexual relations is not a gay or straight thing. To me, it’s just the right thing to do.
posted by Bobby on December 9, 2009

Well Dragon, you wrote a lot. I’m a little busy tonight so I’m gonna reply only to parts of your comments:

“Quite the contrary, Adam Lambert’s militant attitude and his stunt at the AMA is not destroying the stigma of gay sexuality, it’s perpetuating it.”

—Gays are often stereotyped as being limp-wristed and effeminate, Lambert’s performance wasn’t effeminate in any way, it was powerful. He had both men and women in control, he kisses who he wants, he pushes his crotch against who he wants, he has a man on a leash. It was real, and if a woman had done it nobody would be complaining about it, you know that.

“And we should call out the hypocrisy, but we should also be mindful of the fact that most folks aren’t gay, most folks aren’t interested in men kissing, we live in a hetero-normative society and we’re going to for a long time to come, so don’t expect most folks to embrace it, they won’t”

—I don’t care if the breeders embrace it or not, someone has to take a stand, someone has to say “no, I’m not going to sit in the back of the bus anymore.” I don’t have to be mindful about anything, I’m proud of being a republican, I’m proud of being a member of the NRA, and I’m proud of being gay. You think I’m mindfull of people who disaprove of me? Screw them! If they don’t like me, I don’t need them. Lambert will find enough fans no matter what he does.

“Fight the fascists, don’t fight the moderates.”

—I disagree. I’m not interested in fighting anyone, just in being myself, and so in Mr. Lambert.

“You mentioned that there should be more representation of homosexuals in society. I agree, though I would add there should be more positive and more accurate representation of us.”

—I don’t think that’s possible, nothing can be 100% accurate becasue everyone is different. I saw a documentary about gay republicans and only one of them was like me, and I happen to be a republican.

“Should we embrace raunchy sex scenes? No, we should push for tasteful ones whether they’re hetero and homo.”

—Yet some people like raunchy, ever seen Bound? It’s extremely raunchy. So was Bruno, yet did you hear of any gay bashing increasing because of that movie? No.

“You characterize Adam Lambert’s lewd (And yes, I know what the word means and it applies!) incident as celebrating men or male sexuality. I completely disagree. In no way, shape, or form was his act celebratory of homosexual relations. It was crude, tasteless, offensive, period.”

—Why? You’ve never pushed your crotched against a man’s face? You’ve never french kissed a guy? You’ve never experimented with s/m (I haven’t but I read s/m has a HUGE number of conservatives involved in that). Why must everything be about relationships?

“I see absolutely no reason to glorify either nor regard them as ‘the norm’.”

—Lambert isn’t “the norm,” neither was his performance, and that’s the whole point! Lambert was just being Lambert, and when Bill O’reilly talks about this story he doesn’t say “gays are disgusting” but “Lambert went too far.”

“By the way, I caught your U2 reference. ;)”

—Which one? I didn’t know I had made a U2 reference.

“Adam Lambert’s behavior is NOT reflective of our community;”

—Our community has dykes on bikes, drag queens, leather daddies, trolls, bears, and all kinds of assorted fruits and nuts. We’re not all white-picket fence types, ok?

“he wasn’t “being gay” he was being crude, period. This is the same for Britney and friends, they aren’t being “straight” when they engage in sleazy, orgiastic videos.”

—And you know what? Millions of people LOVE Britney Spears, they love her sexy school girl outfits, they love her dance routines, they love her public expressions of sexuality both on and off stage. You’re reminding me of my Christian friends who don’t understand why doesn’t everyone follow the bible and live chaste lives.

“So before jumping to the same old tired accusations, think a little deeper first about the distinction between promiscuous behavior and sexual orientation because the two are mutually exclusive.”

—Find me a breeder who doesn’t want to do two women at the same time. Everyone’s a pervert, it’s just a question of opportunity and self-control. Remember Tiger Woods, Mr. Good Clean Family Man has turned out to be a serial cheater, no different from a thug in the hood. Ironically, at least the thugs in the hood sing about bangin’ women and getting girls pregnant, so at least they have enough integrity to practice what they preach.

What I love more than anyting in the world is honesty. As a friend of mine used to say “give me a sinner over a hypocrite.” People can say whatever they want about Lambert and Perez Hilton, but at least they’re not hypocrites, at least they have the guts to face straight society in their own way without caring about heteronormative bullcrap.

It makes me so sad to see gays devouring their own, and by the way, Lambert is a lot less shameful than Allen Ginsberg, that so-called “poet” started NAMBLA and wrote pro-pedophile poems. If you want to be ashamed of someone, be ashamed of him. And don’t get me started on Oscar Wilde and his interest in teenage prostitutes.
posted by DragonScorpion on December 9, 2009

~âGays are often stereotyped as being limp-wristed and effeminate, Lambert’s performance wasn’t effeminate in any way, it was powerful.â ~ Bobby

It didn’t look powerful to me, but then I’m not into BDSM so the symbolism doesn’t hold much meaning for me. Anyway, so we trade the âlimp-wristedâ and âeffeminateâ stereotype for the promiscuous, oversexed, licentious stereotype. I wouldn’t call that progress.

~âIt was real, and if a woman had done it nobody would be complaining about it, you know that.â ~ Bobby

No, I don’t know that, because as a matter of fact, though it doesn’t make the headlines as much, I’ve got news for you, when mainstream folks particularly a little right-of-center see those performances, yes, they do complain. They think it’s over the top, and they worry about their kids being exposed to it.

~âI don’t care if the breeders embrace it or not, someone has to take a stand, someone has to say “no, I’m not going to sit in the back of the bus anymore.”â ~ Bobby

I have no idea what calling out indecent performances has to do with being forced to sit at the back of the bus. Take a stand against what? To be as raunchy as we want to be? I’m sorry, we don’t have a right to that. Neither do they.

~âYou think I’m mindfull of people who disaprove of me? Screw them! If they don’t like me, I don’t need them. Lambert will find enough fans no matter what he does.â ~ Bobby

I frankly don’t care about his fan base only that it would be more helpful to our community if he either cleaned up his act or faded into obscurity.

Again, you misconstrue who it is I’m speaking about when I refer to âmoderatesâ. I think we should be mindful of the majority of folks in this country who don’t really have a problem with us but are on the fence when it comes to issues like same-sex marriage, adoption and serving in the military, yes. And we do need them if we care at all about gaining civil rights and gaining some much deserved social recognition.

As for the social fascists who want to ostracize us, legislate their theology and deny us civil rights? No, we needn’t be mindful of them at all other than how to defeat them.

~âI don’t think that’s possible, nothing can be 100% accurate becasue everyone is different. I saw a documentary about gay republicans and only one of them was like me, and I happen to be a republican.â ~ Bobby

No offense, but you’re kind of with the wrong party, don’t you think? I’m conservative on some issues, obviously, and I vote independently but the GOP has committed themselves to completely undermining us. I’m not sure how you reconcile voting for most of them…

I digress, take note of my qualifier, I wrote âthere should be more positive and more accurate representation of us.â More, not 100%, more. Nothing is absolute. My point is that our portrayal in the media should be more reflective of the majority of us. As it has been, and still is today, we get caricatures.

Some of that is the nature of media, but just as the black movement underwent, these caricatures hold back advancement; they perpetuate stereotypes. We need to overcome those. And the more we do, the more recognition we will get as decent, good, ordinary folk among the non-gay hating majority out there.

~âYet some people like raunchy, ever seen Bound? It’s extremely raunchy. So was Bruno, yet did you hear of any gay bashing increasing because of that movie? No.â ~ Bobby

Violent gay-bashing? I’m not aware of any, no. Verbal gay bashing? OH YES! Bruno is often cited as an example of how dysfunctional and ridiculous homosexuals really are. Do mainstream folks take that seriously? I don’t know, the actor, Sacha Cohen isn’t actually gay so probably not. But it certainly doesn’t make it any easier for them to take US seriously.

Go read some blogs outside of the gay ones… You’ll find Bruno coming up often when the subject of gay rights does. I have.

~âWhy? You’ve never pushed your crotched against a man’s face? You’ve never french kissed a guy? You’ve never experimented with s/m (I haven’t but I read s/m has a HUGE number of conservatives involved in that). Why must everything be about relationships?â ~ Bobby

Getting a bit personal, aren’t we? Not on television, no. I’ll put it like this, I have had some very meaningful sexual relationships with guys, I’m in one right now. I have not pushed my crotch against some random guy’s face. Nor am I in the habit of slipping tongue to some random guy. Do you?

Following your line of thought, I suppose Mr. Lambert should have just bent the guy over, and hell, why bother with clothes. They could have just done the whole thing right there, show how glorious our love is…

I think sex is a beautiful thing, hetero or homo (no, I’m not bi) spiritual even (and no, I’m not religious) and it can be very satisfying on a purely physical level. But when you take the love, affection, and emotional bonding out of it, then not so much.

Some people are fine with casual relationships. Ok. I’m not, and I’m not an advocate for glamorizing that lifestyle. Moreover, there is a stigma that gay men in particular are typically more casual about sex, we don’t value long-term relationships, we don’t practice monogamy, and only take a self-gratifying interest in it. I don’t believe this is true. And I oppose efforts to perpetuate that stigma.

~”Lambert was just being Lambert, and when Bill O’reilly talks about this story he doesn’t say “gays are disgusting” but “Lambert went too far.” ~ Bobby

Oh, god, you watch Bill O’Reilly, too…? I don’t know how you deal with it, man! I’m sure Bill-O didn’t refer to us as âdisgustingâ, but in all seriousness, I think a lot of folks who are usually indifferent to us did find it disgusting. I found it disgusting, in that venue, and as crudely done as it was. And I’m sure many of these same people find similar performances among heteros to be perhaps not as disgusting because they can better relate to it, but find such performances to be indecent nonetheless. I’ve certainly heard such comments from co-workers.

~âOur community has dykes on bikes, drag queens, leather daddies, trolls, bears, and all kinds of assorted fruits and nuts. We’re not all white-picket fence types, ok?â ~ Bobby

We’re a diverse group, agreed. But I don’t think the leather daddies, the bears and the queens make up the majority… Also, where are the depictions of what you refer to as âwhite-picket fenceâ types? By the way, I prefer the term ‘ordinary’, but hey.

~”Millions of people LOVE Britney Spears, they love her sexy school girl outfits, they love her dance routines, they love her public expressions of sexuality both on and off stage.” ~ Bobby

Yeah, it’s really kind of disgusting, and pathetic. Particularly the school-girl outfits. Thank goodness no gay entertainers have trotted out a bunch of guys in boy scouts uniforms. I suppose you don’t figure that would incite any backlash against us either, though…

~âYou’re reminding me of my Christian friends who don’t understand why doesn’t everyone follow the bible and live chaste lives.â ~ Bobby

Wow… That is truly hilarious! And this coming from the Republican! Well, I’ll definitely take that as an insult.

I’m somewhat socially conservative, but I’m not religious, in fact I reject dogmas and superstitions and firmly believe that the bible was written by men and was not divinely inspired. I don’t vote for social conservatives, in fact I tend to vote against them because I detest the government dictating things like morality. I listen to heavy metal, among other things, I watch Family Guy and Bill Maher…

Seriously, I don’t know what to tell you in regards to this little statement of yours other than I have values which include honesty, integrity, a reverence for sexual expression, monogamy and meaningful relationships. This may be old-fashioned to you, if so, then I guess I’m advocating that we start going back to some sensible “old-fashioned” notions of right and wrong.

~âIt makes me so sad to see gays devouring their own,â ~ Bobby

Ah, welcome to my world…

~âand by the way, Lambert is a lot less shameful than Allen Ginsberg, that so-called “poet” started NAMBLA and wrote pro-pedophile poems. If you want to be ashamed of someone, be ashamed of him. And don’t get me started on Oscar Wilde and his interest in teenage prostitutes.â ~ Bobby

Bit judgmental, aren’t we? And yes, I’m being sarcastic but in all sincerity you’re making a judgment here, and that’s fine. You can say, ‘well sex with minors is illegal so it’s okay to be judgmental’. Sodomy was illegal, my friend, not just buggering boys. And sex between adults and adolescents was much more common in earlier societies. The Greeks loved it. I’m not advocating this, just stating a fact.

The point is, you’re making a moral judgment. I’m doing the same. My standards are different than yours, obviously. But maybe now you can appreciate where I’m coming from.

Lastly, Oscar Wilde and Allen Ginsberg are not here. Adam Lambert is… The former aren’t hurting our image much these days, the latter, in my opinion, is.

Oh, and the U2 song was ‘Trying to Throw Your Arms Around the World’. You paraphrased, but the lyric is âAnd a woman needs a man; Like a fish needs a bicycleâ
posted by Bobby on December 9, 2009

“Anyway, so we trade the âlimp-wristedâ and âeffeminateâ stereotype for the promiscuous, oversexed, licentious stereotype. I wouldn’t call that progress.”

—Let me ask you this, I’ve seen rap videos where black men sorround themselves with women who flirt with them. So is there any way Lambert can express his sexuality while on stage? Do you really want him to be another sexless Clay Aiken?

“No, I don’t know that, because as a matter of fact, though it doesn’t make the headlines as much, I’ve got news for you, when mainstream folks particularly a little right-of-center see those performances, yes, they do complain. They think it’s over the top, and they worry about their kids being exposed to it.”

—America is divided between those who want boring crap like Leave it to Beaver and those who enjoy Desperate Housewives. However, a lot of conservatives enjoy Desperate Housewives, South Park, Modern Family and other risque programs. The 1,500 people who complained are probably devout Christians that should have been watching PAX TV instead of bothering us.

“I have no idea what calling out indecent performances has to do with being forced to sit at the back of the bus. Take a stand against what? To be as raunchy as we want to be? I’m sorry, we don’t have a right to that. Neither do they.”

—Take a stand against heterosexism and boring blandness, take a stand against acting straight on stage vs. being yourself.

“I frankly don’t care about his fan base only that it would be more helpful to our community if he either cleaned up his act or faded into obscurity.”

—I don’t want clean entertainment! I happen to like risque things, such as what Marilyn Manson does on his videos. Why do you think people talk about Lambert and not the real winner of American Idol. Only the christians give a damn about Chris Angel.

“Again, you misconstrue who it is I’m speaking about when I refer to âmoderatesâ. I think we should be mindful of the majority of folks in this country who don’t really have a problem with us but are on the fence when it comes to issues like same-sex marriage, adoption and serving in the military, yes. And we do need them if we care at all about gaining civil rights and gaining some much deserved social recognition.”

—That doesn’t mean we all have to be good little gays. Let Ellen Degeneres fight for gay marriage, I’m not interested and Lambert is too young to be thinking about such stuff anyway.

“No offense, but you’re kind of with the wrong party, don’t you think? I’m conservative on some issues, obviously, and I vote independently but the GOP has committed themselves to completely undermining us. I’m not sure how you reconcile voting for most of them…”

—Because I like war, lower taxes, the second amendment, saying “Merry Christmas,” standing up to radical Islam, political incorrectness, supporting the death penalty and many other issues the democratic party either ignores or attacks. So far I have opposed every single thing Obama has done, that’s why I’m a republican. I reconcile voting for them because I vote out of principle, not based on whether I’m liked or not.

“Some of that is the nature of media, but just as the black movement underwent, these caricatures hold back advancement; they perpetuate stereotypes.”

—I watch a lot of gays on TV and I’ve never seen one as masculine as Lambert. So whether you like it or not, he defies stereotypes.

“Violent gay-bashing? I’m not aware of any, no. Verbal gay bashing? OH YES! Bruno is often cited as an example of how dysfunctional and ridiculous homosexuals really are. Do mainstream folks take that seriously? I don’t know, the actor, Sacha Cohen isn’t actually gay so probably not. But it certainly doesn’t make it any easier for them to take US seriously.”

—I think everyone knows Bruno is a parody, a gross exageration. In fact, I’ve never met a man like Bruno in my entire life.

“Go read some blogs outside of the gay ones… You’ll find Bruno coming up often when the subject of gay rights does. I have.”

—I go to Tongue Tied 3, I gave up on freerepublic after getting expelled several times.

“Getting a bit personal, aren’t we? Not on television, no. I’ll put it like this, I have had some very meaningful sexual relationships with guys, I’m in one right now. I have not pushed my crotch against some random guy’s face. Nor am I in the habit of slipping tongue to some random guy. Do you?”

—If the random guy is sexy and my type and willing, sure, why not? Frankly my dears, I’ve seen worst stuff at The Bathhouse.

“Following your line of thought, I suppose Mr. Lambert should have just bent the guy over, and hell, why bother with clothes. They could have just done the whole thing right there, show how glorious our love is…’

—No, because that show does not permit nudity of any kind. However, the entire band could have been in their underwear, I’ve seen The Red Hot Chilli Peppers do that.

“I think sex is a beautiful thing, hetero or homo (no, I’m not bi) spiritual even (and no, I’m not religious) and it can be very satisfying on a purely physical level. But when you take the love, affection, and emotional bonding out of it, then not so much.”

—That’s your opinion, my two best sexual encounters where one night stands. Chemistry has nothing to do wtih love, affection and emotional bonding, those things come later and are not necessary to have great sex.

“Moreover, there is a stigma that gay men in particular are typically more casual about sex, we don’t value long-term relationships, we don’t practice monogamy, and only take a self-gratifying interest in it. I don’t believe this is true. And I oppose efforts to perpetuate that stigma.”

—If that was the case there wouldn’t be so many gays bitching about gay marriage.

“Oh, god, you watch Bill O’Reilly, too…? I don’t know how you deal with it, man! I’m sure Bill-O didn’t refer to us as âdisgustingâ,”

—If you don’t watch him then you can’t tell me what he says. I watch him, he supports gay adoption, he’s a lot more open minded than people give him credit for. The question is why don’t you watch him? If you care about moderates and independents you should know millions of them watch his show. Both MSNBC and CNN have pitifull ratings in comparisson.

“We’re a diverse group, agreed. But I don’t think the leather daddies, the bears and the queens make up the majority…

Also, where are the depictions of what you refer to as âwhite-picket fenceâ types? By the way, I prefer the term ‘ordinary’, but hey.”

—-No, but they are the most visible because so-called “ordinary” gays tend to be in the closet. Besides, what the hell is normal? There is no normal because there is no norm.

“Yeah, it’s really kind of disgusting, and pathetic. Particularly the school-girl outfits. Thank goodness no gay entertainers have trotted out a bunch of guys in boy scouts uniforms. I suppose you don’t figure that would incite any backlash against us either, though…”

—Actually, Elton John did a song with dancers dressed like Boy Scouts and he got a lot of heat for it, and I totally agreed with the heat he got.

“Wow… That is truly hilarious! And this coming from the Republican! Well, I’ll definitely take that as an insult.

I’m somewhat socially conservative, but I’m not religious, in fact I reject dogmas and superstitions and firmly believe that the bible was written by men and was not divinely inspired.”

—So what? Religion is a system of beliefs, liberals are as devouted to global warming, secularism, multiculturalism, just as much as the Christians are devoted to Christianity. That’s why in some circles you can’t criticize Obama without being called a racist, and if you google “Climategate” you’ll find that leading scientists where hiding information that contradicts global warming.

“I don’t vote for social conservatives, in fact I tend to vote against them because I detest the government dictating things like morality. I listen to heavy metal, among other things, I watch Family Guy and Bill Maher… ”

—Well, I hate Bill Maher, he’s a republicanphobe and his show no longer appeals to me. As for Family Guy, I don’t get why you complain about Lambert when you watch that show, that show ridicules everyone, including gays. As for heavy metal, seriously dude, those people go way beyond anything Lambert did, I heard Ozzie Osburne once bit the head of a chicken.

“Seriously, I don’t know what to tell you in regards to this little statement of yours other than I have values which include honesty, integrity, a reverence for sexual expression, monogamy and meaningful relationships. This may be old-fashioned to you, if so, then I guess I’m advocating that we start going back to some sensible “old-fashioned” notions of right and wrong.”

—How conservative of you, and I don’t mean it as an insult, it’s just that when it comes to sex I’m a liberal.

“Bit judgmental, aren’t we? And yes, I’m being sarcastic but in all sincerity you’re making a judgment here, and that’s fine. You can say, ‘well sex with minors is illegal so it’s okay to be judgmental’. Sodomy was illegal, my friend, not just buggering boys. And sex between adults and adolescents was much more common in earlier societies. The Greeks loved it. I’m not advocating this, just stating a fact.”

—Well, that’s true. However, Ginsberg did not live in the times of the greeks, he was quite open about his pederast interests and I’m just shocked he was never put in jail for it. Frankly, between Lambert and Ginsberg I’d rather take Lambert.

“The point is, you’re making a moral judgment. I’m doing the same. My standards are different than yours, obviously. But maybe now you can appreciate where I’m coming from.”

—I always did appreciate where you’re coming from, I just don’t agree with it. You have an idealistic view of sex and you seek to promote that view. I’m more of a realist when it comes to sex, I think most people want it yet are ashamed of it.

“Lastly, Oscar Wilde and Allen Ginsberg are not here. Adam Lambert is… The former aren’t hurting our image much these days, the latter, in my opinion, is.”

—Homophobic websites love quoting Ginsberg as a tool to spread fear.

“Oh, and the U2 song was ‘Trying to Throw Your Arms Around the World’. You paraphrased, but the lyric is âAnd a woman needs a man; Like a fish needs a bicycleâ

—That I took from Stephen King’s Rose Madder, perhaps King stole it from U2, I don’t know. It’s a popular lesbian line, and I changed it a bit.
posted by DragonScorpion on December 9, 2009

~âLet me ask you this, I’ve seen rap videos where black men sorround themselves with women who flirt with them. So is there any way Lambert can express his sexuality while on stage? Do you really want him to be another sexless Clay Aiken?â ~ Bobby

I don’t have a problem with Mr. Lambert expressing his sexuality on stage, but I would prefer it not to be tasteless. And most of those rap videos you are taking about, are tasteless, derogatory towards women. Would I want to see a gay equivalent to that? Hell no.

~âAmerica is divided between those who want boring crap like Leave it to Beaver and those who enjoy Desperate Housewives.â ~ Bobby

Oh, I don’t think it’s quite so black & white as you suggest.

~âTake a stand against heterosexism and boring blandness, take a stand against acting straight on stage vs. being yourself.â ~ Bobby

As someone else pointed out to you here, there really wasn’t anything gay about a guy leading another guy around on a leash and shoving his face into his crotch. Also, if Adam Lamber was ‘being himself’, then I think that’s part of the problem, too.

~âI don’t want clean entertainment! I happen to like risque things, such as what Marilyn Manson does on his videos. Why do you think people talk about Lambert and not the real winner of American Idol.â ~ Bobby

Because people tend to prize scandal over talent. And I like Manson, too. Most of his work, in fact. But there is a time and a place for such things. The AMA, in my opinion, wasn’t it. And I think we’re going down a dangerous path when we just keep pushing the envelope on what is socially acceptable, and pushing and pushing. At some point we need to take a step back.

It’s like going to a club, you get a little drunk, a little wild, maybe very drunk, you go home and sober up. You don’t just keep drinking yourself to death.

Note that Marylin Manson doesn’t really glamorize sex and debauchery, he makes a mockery of it. Unfortunately, many of his fans seem to dense to get that.

~âThat doesn’t mean we all have to be good little gays. Let Ellen Degeneres fight for gay marriage, I’m not interested and Lambert is too young to be thinking about such stuff anyway.â ~ Bobby

I’d just like to see those âgood little gaysâ more represented. And those that aren’t âgoodâ needn’t be praised for it. You make Mr. Lambert out to be some kind of a hero or role model. I would prefer our community aspire to something higher, less narcissistic, less superficial. We are a bit lacking on role models, and that’s a shame. Especially for the young homosexuals, the kids who need to know that who they are is not an affliction; they can grow up to be healthy, productive, successful members of society.

~âBecause I like war, lower taxes, the second amendment, saying “Merry Christmas,” standing up to radical Islam, political incorrectness, supporting the death penalty and many other issues the democratic party either ignores or attacks. So far I have opposed every single thing Obama has done, that’s why I’m a republican. I reconcile voting for them because I vote out of principle, not based on whether I’m liked or not.â ~ Bobby

That certainly puts your other views into perspective for me. I can see that we don’t agree on much of anything, though I despise political correctness as well, which is what I feel some in the gay community are demanding for Adam Lambert.

And saying âMerry Christmasâ, seriously? You’re not going to tell me this is a Christian nation, too, are you…?

I would suggest you take a look at conservative Democrats and independents or go all out Libertarian, at least they don’t believe in legislating sexual morality.

~âI watch a lot of gays on TV and I’ve never seen one as masculine as Lambert. So whether you like it or not, he defies stereotypes.â ~ Bobby

Hmmm… I suppose we have different notions about what masculine is.

~âI go to Tongue Tied 3, I gave up on freerepublic after getting expelled several times.â ~ Bobby

Expelled, really?

~âIf the random guy is sexy and my type and willing, sure, why not? Frankly my dears, I’ve seen worst stuff at The Bathhouse.â ~Bobby

I see. We could have avoided so much back and forth if we would have got to this earlier. You don’t have a problem with Mr. Lambert’s behavior because to some extent it does reflect you or some of your behavior. I don’t find it healthy; I don’t think it should be encouraged.

~âNo, because that show does not permit nudity of any kind. However, the entire band could have been in their underwear, I’ve seen The Red Hot Chilli Peppers do that.â ~ Bobby

I like them, too. Not that I’m saying they should necessarily allow it, and obviously the FCC wouldn’t, but I think it’s a shame that a show forbids people being naked but has no qualms about simulating aggressive sex. I think they should reconsider allowing the latter in the future, from ANYONE.

~âThat’s your opinion, my two best sexual encounters where one night stands. Chemistry has nothing to do wtih love, affection and emotional bonding, those things come later and are not necessary to have great sex.â ~ Bobby

I definitely disagree that chemistry has nothing to do with love. In some ways it has everything to do with it. Again, I think it’s a shame that our culture, heterosexuals and homosexuals, have become so casual about relationships and sex. Not to say that the sex is bad, I’m sure some of it isn’t, but I think the emotional quality of those encounters are certainly less significant. It’s also riskier from a health perspective.

I think it is legitimate to wonder, where does this end? Is there ever going to be a line drawn, or do we just keep pushing that line? And that line is pushed, mind you, by those who claim it is an ‘enlightened’ attitude.

Actually, I know this isn’t politically correct because it’s judgmental and all, but I find it revolting that some guys go to a club and have intercourse with a random stranger in the bathroom, sometimes with multiple partners in the same night. And, I know for some even that would be a bit tame. I’d like to see us, as a community, discourage that behavior. Instead, it’s depicted as part of the gay ‘lifestyle’, even among our community!

I’d be blasted as being a homophobe for saying half of the things I do, if I weren’t gay. And in fact I have, and accused of not even being gay. So synonymous has promiscuity become with homosexuality, that even WE can’t condemn it anymore.

~âIf that was the case there wouldn’t be so many gays bitching about gay marriage.â ~ Bobby

You would think so! Good point. And you would think those conservatives who (claim to) value monogamy would want to encourage commitment by allowing same-sex marriage. But then I suppose they would say they’re afraid that while we may be legally married, we won’t actually commit or be monogamous and lead the married lifestyle. You know, like a lot of heterosexuals can’t seem to do very well…

(continued)
posted by DragonScorpion on December 9, 2009

~âIf you don’t watch [Bill O’Reilly] then you can’t tell me what he says. I watch him, he supports gay adoption, he’s a lot more open minded than people give him credit for. The question is why don’t you watch him? If you care about moderates and independents you should know millions of them watch his show. Both MSNBC and CNN have pitifull ratings in comparisson.â ~ Bobby

I used to watch him a long time ago. He’s a blowhard who is completely full of himself. He believes his word on everything is truth, other people’s are mere opinions, he can’t have a civil discourse. If someone disagrees with him and isn’t cowed by his ‘wit and wisdom’ then he blows up and starts yelling.

I can’t stomach the guy. And while he has been somewhat supportive of gays, but he has also been in hot water for making anti-gay insinuations in the past. He certainly gives those folks a platform to rant from, too. And, of course, he works at the network that helps push the anti-gay agenda.

As for the ratings thing, I always put it to people like this: Fox News pushes a right-wing agenda. MSNBC pushes a left-wing agenda. Supposedly, CNN, ABC, CBS and NBC are all left-leaning media. That means that the âliberalsâ in this country are spread among 5 networks. The conservatives only have one. It stands to reason that even if there were twice as many liberals in this country as conservatives, Fox News’ ratings would be higher than the others.

~âNo, but they are the most visible because so-called “ordinary” gays tend to be in the closet. Besides, what the hell is normal? There is no normal because there is no norm.â ~ Bobby

I don’t recall mentioning ânormalâ, I dislike that word as it conveys anyone outside of that is abnormal. I don’t think you really answered my question, if the stereotypical gays who exhibit stereotypical mannerisms and lifestyle choices are represented, then why aren’t the ordinary, average, everyday mainstream gays and lesbians who don’t at all fit the stereotypes represented?

~âActually, Elton John did a song with dancers dressed like Boy Scouts and he got a lot of heat for it, and I totally agreed with the heat he got.â ~ Bobby

I recall something about that now. That certainly didn’t help our image much… As I recall they offered up some of the same kind of excuses others have for Mr. Lambert’s show, ‘it’s art’, ‘artists have to be competitive’, ‘people have done similar things in the past’ yada, yada.

Well, at least you apparently believe there is a line that shouldn’t be crossed. Good. Now, if we could just move that line a little closer to certain conventional notions of decency…

~âSo what? Religion is a system of beliefs, liberals are as devouted to global warming, secularism, multiculturalism, just as much as the Christians are devoted to Christianity. That’s why in some circles you can’t criticize Obama without being called a racist, and if you google “Climategate” you’ll find that leading scientists where hiding information that contradicts global warming.â ~ Bobby

Man, Fox News has got you all convinced! Well, you prove that we are indeed a diverse group.

And yes, religion is a system of beliefs, constructed by people, but then the devout claim it is divinely inspired… A bit delusional. Between superstitions and science, I’ll go with science.

And what’s wrong with secularism? I mean, you seem to reject most social standards, the Christian religion is still used to demonize us, people who argue against same-sex marriage often use the religious definition as their case. Many same-sex marriage opponents claim there isn’t or shouldn’t be a separation between church and state, and of course, if there wasn’t one it would be mighty hard to argue why marriage, a religious institution, should be afforded to same-sex couples…

Only in a secular society can the case be effectively made that marriage is a civil institution and theology cannot be used to determine who qualifies. And only in a more secular society can performers be as raunchy as they want to be.

~âWell, I hate Bill Maher, he’s a republicanphobe and his show no longer appeals to me. As for Family Guy, I don’t get why you complain about Lambert when you watch that show, that show ridicules everyone, including gays. As for heavy metal, seriously dude, those people go way beyond anything Lambert did, I heard Ozzie Osburne once bit the head of a chicken.â ~ Bobby

It was a dove. Though there might have been a chicken at some point… And a bat, once, too, though he says he thought it was fake when someone threw it at him. Outrageous, indeed. Some key differences here, Ozzy has done his antics at concerts, and as I have pointed out numerous times now, Ozzy ISN’T GAY, Adam Lambert IS. My point has been that these examples, like Ozzy, isn’t hurting our cause, Adam Lambert, in my opinion, is.

By the way, I think Bill Maher is down on Republicans a lot for the same reason I am, because, overall, the party has become overrun by ultra-conservative theocons, war mongers and social fascists. But he hasn’t always been so hell-bent against them. He’s, unbelievably, friends with the Coultergiest. Of course, you might like her, too…

I figured you might appreciate Bill for his political incorrectness, and he rakes Democrats and some liberal causes over the coals. But, yeah, being a staunch Republican, I can understand why you wouldn’t.

Lastly, yes, they ridicule EVERYONE on Family Guy. Equal opportunity. And sometimes I think they go too far, certainly. And, yes, they are an example of a coarsening of our society.

~âHow conservative of you, and I don’t mean it as an insult, it’s just that when it comes to sex I’m a liberal.â ~ Bobby

Indeed. It may shock you but I’m not a liberal. At least not in the modern sense. I am progressive on a lot of issues, but I’m conservative and/or libertarian on a lot of issues also. And yes, you are quite liberal when it comes to sex. What a contradiction, you and I. Polar opposites in unconventional ways.

~âI always did appreciate where you’re coming from, I just don’t agree with it. You have an idealistic view of sex and you seek to promote that view. I’m more of a realist when it comes to sex, I think most people want it yet are ashamed of it.â ~ Bobby

Yeah, people shouldn’t be ashamed of sex. But I also think they should value it, and for more than just the physical benefits of it. I am idealistic about it, and I think our society would be better off if more of us were. Bottom line, I’d like to see us aim for the ideal rather than aim for the gutter.

~âHomophobic websites love quoting Ginsberg as a tool to spread fear.â ~ Bobby

Among other things. Again, Ginsberg is no longer with us, nothing we can do about that. We have to deal with who we can influence today. I would encourage Mr. Lambert to keep his sexcapades at home, the club, the bathhouse, wherever he likes to do it, but preferably not on stage, and especially not before a national audience.

~âThat I took from Stephen King’s Rose Madder, perhaps King stole it from U2, I don’t know. It’s a popular lesbian line, and I changed it a bit.â ~ Bobby

Ah, I’ve never read him. I like many of his movie adaptations. It may be a more popular line than I’d realized, it just hit me when I read it because I like U2 a lot and thought you referencing them.

Well, I think we have beat this dead horse enough. I’m sure other readers aren’t terribly interested in our personal views to such detail. We’ve already more than monopolized this thread.

It’s been a very interesting conversation. Surprisingly civil. That’s always nice. We have some things in common, disagree on a lot, but agree to disagree I’m sure. Enjoy your evening.
posted by Bobby on December 9, 2009

“Oh, I don’t think it’s quite so black & white as you suggest.”

—That’s the way it has always been, people like Freedy Mercury and Boy George also faced criticism in their day. As my psychologist says, Lambert is a genious. And you know what? Not everyone appreciates a genious.

“As someone else pointed out to you here, there really wasn’t anything gay about a guy leading another guy around on a leash and shoving his face into his crotch. Also, if Adam Lamber was ‘being himself’, then I think that’s part of the problem, too.”

—Unless you’re a gay man who doesn’t practice oral sex, there IS something gay about shoving a face into your crotch!

“Because people tend to prize scandal over talent.”

—I don’t believe that, Lambert is EXTREMELY talented and has a phenomenal voice. The only reason he lost American idol is because the christian kid had the kind of family-friendly image people like to vote for, but when it comes to buying music, family-friendly crap doesn’t pay unless you’re doing the Christian music scene.

“And I think we’re going down a dangerous path when we just keep pushing the envelope on what is socially acceptable, and pushing and pushing. At some point we need to take a step back.”

—That’s the same argument the homphobes used against Will & Grace. Look, it’s not about pushing the envelope, it’s about equality, the right to be just as sexual as the breeders, no more, no less.

“Note that Marylin Manson doesn’t really glamorize sex and debauchery, he makes a mockery of it. Unfortunately, many of his fans seem to dense to get that.”

—I read that in one of his concerts he frenched kiss a guy, he also wears makeup, strange costumes, has an album called Antichrist Superstar, and sings all kind of evil stuff.

“I’d just like to see those âgood little gaysâ more represented. And those that aren’t âgoodâ needn’t be praised for it. You make Mr. Lambert out to be some kind of a hero or role model. I would prefer our community aspire to something higher, less narcissistic, less superficial. We are a bit lacking on role models, and that’s a shame. Especially for the young homosexuals, the kids who need to know that who they are is not an affliction; they can grow up to be healthy, productive, successful members of society.”

—Young homos have lots of positive gay role models, I saw a list of gay celebrities and I was amazed at the diversity we have. From Ellen to Rosie there’s more than enough for everyone. Besides, I don’t believe in role models, Tiger Woods used to be a role model until he was exposed as a pervert. If I’m gonna admire people I’d like to see their flaws first.

“That certainly puts your other views into perspective for me. I can see that we don’t agree on much of anything, though I despise political correctness as well, which is what I feel some in the gay community are demanding for Adam Lambert.”

—On advocate.com most people where attacking Lambert with almost the same viciousness they give Perez HIlton.

“And saying âMerry Christmasâ, seriously? You’re not going to tell me this is a Christian nation, too, are you…? ”

—I will tell you that Americans who believe in Christ as their savior are the MAJORITY, Christmas is a federal holiday, and saying “merry christmas” does not violate separation of church and state. If I was living in Saudi Arabia, then fine, they can say happy ramadam or whatever, but in America I want to see the words “Merry Christmas” in our stores and our advertising. And if that offends the muslims, f-ck them! This is not the United States of Minorities.

“I would suggest you take a look at conservative Democrats and independents or go all out Libertarian, at least they don’t believe in legislating sexual morality.”

—I don’t remember the last time the GOP legislated sexual morality, I don’t see a drive for a constitutional amendment to bring back sodomy laws. I listen to Rush Limbaugh and while he doesn’t support same-sex marriage, he doesn’t go on homphobic tirades because the man cares more about freedom than anything else.

“Expelled, really?”

—Yup, people simply flag my posts at offensive and pretty son I’m out.

“I see. We could have avoided so much back and forth if we would have got to this earlier. You don’t have a problem with Mr. Lambert’s behavior because to some extent it does reflect you or some of your behavior. I don’t find it healthy; I don’t think it should be encouraged.”

—I think sexual frustration is unhealthy, I think being angry because everyone else is getting laid and having fun is unhealthy. Lambert encourages sexual freedom, I happen to respect that even if I’m no longer promiscous.

“I like them, too. Not that I’m saying they should necessarily allow it, and obviously the FCC wouldn’t, but I think it’s a shame that a show forbids people being naked but has no qualms about simulating aggressive sex. I think they should reconsider allowing the latter in the future, from ANYONE.”

—Here’s why I like The O’reilly Factor, the legal analysts told Bill that because the performance took place after 10:00pmn there’s nothing the FCC can do. Indecency is allowed after that hour because it’s assumed that young people will be asleep. Look it up.

And by the way, have you ever been to Vegas? There are extremely artistic shows with Showgirls where they do simulate sex and lots of other stuff. Ever seen the movie Showgirls? Lambert didn’t invent the wheel, he simply made it gay for the rest of us.

“Not to say that the sex is bad, I’m sure some of it isn’t, but I think the emotional quality of those encounters are certainly less significant. It’s also riskier from a health perspective.”

—Actually, what I do is less risky than getting married and having a partner cheat on me without condoms.

“I think it is legitimate to wonder, where does this end? Is there ever going to be a line drawn, or do we just keep pushing that line? And that line is pushed, mind you, by those who claim it is an ‘enlightened’ attitude.”

—You know, every society wonders the same question. Check out the story of the bikini and you’ll see how they’ve gotten smaller over the years. HOWEVER, while some women choose to wear g-strings most women do not. Thus society sets their own limits, it’s not like bestiality and necrophilia will become a fad in the next 10 years. Besides, if the AMA wants viewers they need to push the envelope, otherwise they will die like the newspapers.

“but I find it revolting that some guys go to a club and have intercourse with a random stranger in the bathroom, sometimes with multiple partners in the same night.”

—I don’t like it but I don’t care, if it makes you happy and your partner consents, it’s your problem, not mine.

“Instead, it’s depicted as part of the gay ‘lifestyle’, even among our community! ”

—Because it’s a lifestyle for some of them. Look, if you want to be the public relations director of the g community and get all gays to stop doing certain things then you’re fighting a losing battle.

“But then I suppose they would say they’re afraid that while we may be legally married, we won’t actually commit or be monogamous and lead the married lifestyle. You know, like a lot of heterosexuals can’t seem to do very well…”

—That’s not the case, the issue really is about tradition. They want to define marriage as union between a man and a woman because that’s the way it’s always been. This isn’t about what gays do or don’t do, in fact, there are conservatives who support civil unions and hospital visitation for gay couples, they’re just greedy about marriage.
posted by Bobby on December 9, 2009

“And, of course, he works at the network that helps push the anti-gay agenda.”

—I disagree with you, it was Fox News that first reported Adam Lambert was gay when the rest of the media was ignoring the story, and it was Bill O’Reilly who said Lambert should be judged for his talent and not his sexuality when Adam needed votes.

“It stands to reason that even if there were twice as many liberals in this country as conservatives, Fox News’ ratings would be higher than the others.”

—Yet radio is like 90% rightwing. The reason for this is simply, liberals tend to study film and communications in greater numbers than conservatives. And yes, Fox News ratings are higher than all the others COMBINED.

“if the stereotypical gays who exhibit stereotypical mannerisms and lifestyle choices are represented, then why aren’t the ordinary, average, everyday mainstream gays and lesbians who don’t at all fit the stereotypes represented?”

—Maybe because ordinary is boring. It’s like my life, why would anyone do a reality show about a guy who writes crap in the computer, watches TV, and plays video-games? Instead of me they’re gonna look for a personal trainer or mountain climber or anyone who has an exciting life.

“I recall something about that now. That certainly didn’t help our image much…”

—I don’t care anymore about our gay image, the breeders are gonna think whatever they want no matter what. I once went to a very right-wing radio show and guess what? It was the liberal lesbian who was treated like a Queen while Mr. Gay Conservative was treated like the Marquis de Sade.

“And yes, religion is a system of beliefs, constructed by people, but then the devout claim it is divinely inspired… A bit delusional. Between superstitions and science, I’ll go with science.”

—I used to trust science until Al Gore told us that the debate over global warming was over. As for religion, it’s a question of faith. Do I believe in God? Yes. Do I think Moses and Jesus existed? Yes. I also believe in ghosts and the paranormal, what I don’t trust is the secular science fanatics that write books like The God Delusion and think they have all the answers when in reality they have nothing but questions. If science is everything, how do you explain the success of religion when it comes to treating alcoholism and drug addiction?

“And what’s wrong with secularism? I mean, you seem to reject most social standards,”

—Secularism is fundamentalist christianity but with the support of the state and the media. It’s a “religion” where smokers are demonized, fat people are ridiculed, people who mention God while giving a valedictorian speech are persecuted, you can’t bring high school kids to see A Christmas Carol, etc, etc, etc. Read “Godless” by Ann Coulter, and you’ll see how corrupt the secularists can be.

“the Christian religion is still used to demonize us,”

—I’ve met secular and atheist homophobes. Cuba, China, the USSR, Vietnam and North Korea are all secular societies where gays have been persecuted heavily.

Besides, the gay marriage foes have plenty of secular lies they use.

“My point has been that these examples, like Ozzy, isn’t hurting our cause, Adam Lambert, in my opinion, is.”

—Lambert said he never wanted to be a gay activist, so I don’t think he has to worry about our cause.

“By the way, I think Bill Maher is down on Republicans a lot for the same reason I am, because, overall, the party has become overrun by ultra-conservative theocons, war mongers and social fascists. But he hasn’t always been so hell-bent against them.’

—Yeah, we get that a lot. Rush Limbaugh says most liberals and progressives want republicans to move to the center. Why? We have a left-wing party (DNC) and a right-wing party (GOP). Between the two of us there is a center. God help us if we become like England where your choices are either left or left-wing.

“He’s, unbelievably, friends with the Coultergiest. Of course, you might like her, too…”

—Yeah, I know that and it does surprise me. Coulter must have a huge sense of humor to be friends with a guy like him.

“I figured you might appreciate Bill for his political incorrectness,”

—I used to many years ago, but he’s a fake. He calls himself a libertarian yet says nobody should buy more than one gun a month. I don’t know why, but a lot of comedians think everyone who watches them is left-of-center. Thank God for South Park, seriously.

“Bottom line, I’d like to see us aim for the ideal rather than aim for the gutter.”

—Why not do both? I’ll aim for the gutter and you for the higher ideals, just kidding 🙂

“Well, I think we have beat this dead horse enough. I’m sure other readers aren’t terribly interested in our personal views to such detail. We’ve already more than monopolized this thread.”

—This thread was dead until you came here. Yes, it’s been fun talking to you. Good luck, and if you want to write me directly my e-mail is hershelgoldberg454@yahoo.com

Not my real name of course.

It’s been a very interesting conversation. Surprisingly civil. That’s always nice. We have some things in common, disagree on a lot, but agree to disagree I’m sure. Enjoy your evening.
posted by DragonScorpion on December 10, 2009

@Bobby

Well, things were going well, but this last one was just over-the-top for me…

Naturally, I took issue with much of what you had to say in response to me, particularly because some of your answers don’t really address my points. But I’m not going to respond to these because 1) it appears we’re really just running in circles here, 2) in light of some of your latest comments, I’m finding it very difficult to take you seriously now.

I can dig that someone can be gay and conservative on a lot of issues like taxes, war and gun ownership, but what you have depicted here has grown into something comically inconsistent.

It makes no sense for a militant gay guy to be a staunch pro-Republican, who reads homophobe Ann Coulter, listens to Rush ‘bend over and grab the ankles’ Limbaugh, watches Bill O’Reilly, is extremely permissive about sex, believes we’re a majority Christian nation and therefore you’re entitled to see âMerry Christmasâ when you go to the store and you don’t give a damn who are offended by it, but yet YOU are offended because a gay guy has been criticized for what most folks in this country view as a lewd performance on national television.

Seriously… It doesn’t add up. Not even close.

In this thread you have repeated so many of the key phrases which are generally used by conservatives against the homosexual MINORITY. And yet you are militantly in favor of gay rights, including what you construe as a ârightâ to be âjust as sexual as the breeders, no more, no less.â

And âbreedersâ? Do you talk to your heterosexual Republican friends this way?

Your rhetoric is typical right-wing conservative populism, yet you demand equality and respect on all fronts for homosexuals and have a very liberal attitude toward social mores, which is ANYTHING but right-wing conservative populism.

You go so far as to suggest that we, collectively, should all bend to Christian sensibilities when it comes to token gestures like âMerry Christmasâ, etc. but yet if the MAJORITY of the public, frankly, doesn’t want to see a man kiss another man let alone shove another man’s face in his crotch, then you claim they can all just go to hell because YOU have rights. Oh, but then according to you we’re not the âUnited States of Minoritiesâ… This is wholly inconsistent; irreconcilable, dude.

What would be obvious to any remotely reasonable person is that these minorities that you’re so eager to dismiss out of turn have rights also. And if you’re going to dismiss the majority in regards to sex, then you can’t legitimately invoke majority when it comes to religion. But yet you do. Could you really have that arrogant a sense of entitlement?

For the record, I’m a firm secularist. And I don’t give a damn whether folks say âMerry Christmasâ or âHappy Holidaysâ, and frankly it isn’t consistent with your attitude about social standards and morality that you would either.

I tried. I really tried to make sense of it, but it is absolutely astounding the inconsistency that you exhibit in this forum. While you claim to oppose political correctness, you also support it. Yes, demanding that people say âMerry Christmasâ to satisfy Christians IS political correctness! Just as are demands that people not say it. And yes, demanding that Adam Lambert can be as nasty as he wants to be because Britney supposedly gets to do it IS political correctness as well.

What absolutely floored me was this little gem:

â—I don’t remember the last time the GOP legislated sexual morality, I don’t see a drive for a constitutional amendment to bring back sodomy laws. I listen to Rush Limbaugh and while he doesn’t support same-sex marriage, he doesn’t go on homphobic tirades because the man cares more about freedom than anything else.â ~ Bobby

Seriously!? It has somehow eluded you that the GOP has been and is attempting to legislate morality still to this day! Come now…

The GOP whose members have REPEATEDLY created, supported and passed bills, including constitutional amendments banning same-sex marriage in some 30 states, have pushed to ban same-sex marriage at the nation level, was successful at passing DOMA (yes, I know who betrayed us when he signed it) which neutered same-sex marriage nationally even for those states that legalized it.

The same GOP who has railed against reproductive rights, cut funding for sex education, condom distribution.

And talk about being in the realm of the unreal, the same GOP who has pushed for massive funding of abstinence-only programs as if kids are just going to stop doing it, and this in spite of being raised in our over-sexualized culture that you seem to like so well.

The same party who has mandated as part of HIV/AIDS relief for Africa to teach abstinence and cut availability to condoms and contraceptives.

The same GOP whose members at least ~had~ supported Uganda in their efforts to legislate an extreme crackdown against homosexuals.

The very Republicans who opposed the overturning of sodomy laws, you know, goons like Rick âman on dogâ Santorum who has railed against homosexuals and our civil rights.

Despicable Republicans like Virginia Foxx who claimed on the floor of the House of Representatives that Matthew Sheppard wasn’t killed because of his sexuality. This was part of her cheap argument against hate crimes legislation.

And all those Republicans all across the country who every day are fighting ENDA, repeal of DOMA and Don’t Ask; Don’t Tell, same-sex marriage, same-sex civil unions, gay adoption, discussing homosexual orientation in schools, ALL in the name of morality, on and on and on it goes.

Somehow, none of this had occurred to you as attempts to legislate morality…

By our discussion I know you’re not that uninformed. And you couldn’t be that delusional and still carry on conversations, so that leaves at the very least gross intellectual dishonesty.

I hate being rude like this, especially when things had been civil, but I also hate dishonesty and despise when people play games with me, and as far as I can tell that’s exactly what you’re doing here and I don’t appreciate it. I don’t have time for this. Trolling is why some people get banned from sites like the New Republic for instance…

Now, if what you say is really what you believe then you need to figure yourself out because the principles espoused by the Republican party today including those talking points which you have promoted here are not in any way reconcilable to many of the principles you espouse in regards to sexuality and equality.

And you seriously need to understand that most of these people you follow, listen to, promote and vote for, would love little more than to ‘repair’ our homosexual ‘affliction’, segregate us from society, or at the very, very least, shove us all back into that closet.
posted by Bobby on December 10, 2009

“It makes no sense for a militant gay guy to be a staunch pro-Republican, who reads homophobe Ann Coulter, listens to Rush ‘bend over and grab the ankles’ Limbaugh, watches Bill O’Reilly, is extremely permissive about sex, believes we’re a majority Christian nation and therefore you’re entitled to see âMerry Christmasâ when you go to the store and you don’t give a damn who are offended by it, but yet YOU are offended because a gay guy has been criticized for what most folks in this country view as a lewd performance on national television. ”

—It’s not that complicated, first of all, I don’t let my sexuality define my politics except when it comes to being out of the closet and pro-sex. I’ve always joke that conservatives are right about everything but sex, must be some kind of missing chromosome or something, I don’t know. Most gays are liberals becasue they assume liberals are their friends, if you think like that, what happens the day you meet a homophobic liberal? And yes, they do exist, there are people who are anti-gun, anti-sexism, anti-racism and very homophobic. Jamaica is that way, pro-gun control and anti-gay. The rastafarians like their pot, but they do not like their queers.

“In this thread you have repeated so many of the key phrases which are generally used by conservatives against the homosexual MINORITY. And yet you are militantly in favor of gay rights, including what you construe as a ârightâ to be âjust as sexual as the breeders, no more, no less.â

—Read Bentley Little and you’ll find out that right-wingers and left-wingers do have a lot in common. Here’s an extreme example. A Republican woman sees a homeless person and thinks “that man should get a job.” A democrat woman sees the same person and says “the governmetn should help that man get a job.” What’s the result? Neither did anything for the homeless person.

“And âbreedersâ? Do you talk to your heterosexual Republican friends this way?”

—No, I only use that word in a gay environment like this one. It’s the same reason black people don’t use the word “cracker” in front of me.

“You go so far as to suggest that we, collectively, should all bend to Christian sensibilities when it comes to token gestures like âMerry Christmasâ, etc.”

—Because some traditions are worth keeping, others are worth discarding.

“but yet if the MAJORITY of the public, frankly, doesn’t want to see a man kiss another man let alone shove another man’s face in his crotch, then you claim they can all just go to hell because YOU have rights.”

—How do you know what the majority wants? Brokeback Mountain, Jeffrey, Philadelphia and several other gay movies have been extremely popular. Besides, Lambert isn’t the first singer to spark a controversy, people use to say horrible things about Elvis and the way he would move his legs.

“Oh, but then according to you we’re not the âUnited States of Minoritiesâ… This is wholly inconsistent; irreconcilable, dude.”

—Lambert doing his thing is ok, Americans United for the Separation of Church and State doing their thing is not ok if it means forced secularization. Get it? Lambert doesn’t force anyone to be gay but some groups want to force everyone to stop saying Merry Christmas.

“What would be obvious to any remotely reasonable person is that these minorities that you’re so eager to dismiss out of turn have rights also.”

—So if muslims can’t eat pork do they have the right to demand that high school cafeterias don’t serve pork? That’s not acceptable yet it’s happening in France and England. If Osama Bin Ladden doesn’t like pork he can have the fish, the chicken, the beef or bring his own damn lunch. Freedom is “I want to do X” not “I want everyone to stop doing X.”

“And yes, demanding that Adam Lambert can be as nasty as he wants to be because Britney supposedly gets to do it IS political correctness as well.”

—I disagree.

“Seriously!? It has somehow eluded you that the GOP has been and is attempting to legislate morality still to this day! Come now…”

—Only in the marriage arena. Besides, Obama himself is against same-sex marriage, so are most democrats, even in uber-liberal New York we couldn’t pass it. Face it, neither party wants to touch this issue.

“The same GOP who has railed against reproductive rights, cut funding for sex education, condom distribution.”

—Abortion is legal in all 50 states. The GOP has rallied for parental notification, which makes sense considering teenagers need permission from their parents to get a tattoo. I support abortion, but give me a break with people like Dr. Tiller who didn’t report statutory-rape of 13 year old girls even though it was the law.

“And talk about being in the realm of the unreal, the same GOP who has pushed for massive funding of abstinence-only programs as if kids are just going to stop doing it, and this in spite of being raised in our over-sexualized culture that you seem to like so well.”

—Well, I don’t agree with that, but unlike you I’m not going to reject a party just because they’re wrong on one or two issues.

“The same party who has mandated as part of HIV/AIDS relief for Africa to teach abstinence and cut availability to condoms and contraceptives.”

—Bush is LOVED in Africa, they never protested his visits because he spent more in Africa than any other US president, including Bill Clinton.

“The same GOP whose members at least ~had~ supported Uganda in their efforts to legislate an extreme crackdown against homosexuals.”

—The GOP wasn’t there, that’s Rick Warren and his evangelical friends.

“The very Republicans who opposed the overturning of sodomy laws, you know, goons like Rick âman on dogâ Santorum who has railed against homosexuals and our civil rights.”

—So what? The democratic party has people that hate white people, the rich, the succesful, men, etc. Obama even appointed Van Jones, seriously, only Obama would appoint a self-admited COMMUNIST.

“Despicable Republicans like Virginia Foxx who claimed on the floor of the House of Representatives that Matthew Sheppard wasn’t killed because of his sexuality.”

—I saw a 20/20 special about how Mathew’s killers where meth addicts and Mathew himself was a drug user. Even Mathew’s mother has admited her son was no saint. Maybe Virginia watched that show.

‘I hate being rude like this, especially when things had been civil, but I also hate dishonesty and despise when people play games with me, and as far as I can tell that’s exactly what you’re doing here and I don’t appreciate it.”

—You’re a newcomer to this forum (I’ve seen you post on advocate.com though) and I dont’ appreciate you telling me what I’m doing here. I am arguing. Besides, you think it makes sense to me that you’re so anti-republican yet want Lambert to be straight-acting? Chances are Lambert is just as liberal as you, and maybe some kid in Iowa will see Lamberts performance and think “if he can be openly gay, maybe I can too.”

“I don’t have time for this. Trolling is why some people get banned from sites like the New Republic for instance…”

—I would never post there, not in a million years. That democrat-occupied territory.

“And you seriously need to understand that most of these people you follow, listen to, promote and vote for, would love little more than to ‘repair’ our homosexual ‘affliction’, segregate us from society, or at the very, very least, shove us all back into that closet.”

—How many republicans/conservatives do you know in your personal life? I’ve met quite a few, online and off, and except for a few homophobes I’ve been welcomed with open arms.

As for liberals, let’s see, my best friend happens to be a liberal although now he’s pissed off with me because I like to call people with brown skin, “brownies,” and he says that’s racist and he can’t talk to me anymore until I promise to stop saying that word.

See? That’s how it works on the left, instead of debating ideas they debate what you said, how you said it, what you meant, and the minute you step out of line they will let you have it. Ask Geraldine Ferraro, she used to be a hero of the left until she criticized the way Hillary Clinton was being treated and the bias in favor of Obama.

So frankly, I don’t trust liberals, even when they say they’re “open minded” you often find out how close minded they can be.

In fact, my republican psychologist refers to Lambert as a star, a genious, groundbreaking, she’s also liberal whe in comes to sex and wasn’t outraged or disgusted by what Lambert did. She actually told me that millions of women find what Lambert did erotic. Get it? Thanks to Lambert women can enjoy gay on gay action just like men enjoy women on women action.

And maybe then it will be easier to legalize gay marriage, either that or SCOTUS will have to decide it just like they did with interracial marriage in Loving vs. Virginia if I remember correctly.
posted by DragonScorpion on December 11, 2009

The following was a lie and I will not let it stand:

~âBesides, you think it makes sense to me that you’re so anti-republican yet want Lambert to be straight-acting?â ~ Bobby

First of all, my opposition to your party because I disagree with much of their platform and most particularly their concerted efforts to persecute gays and other minorities, in no way, shape, or form should suggest that I have no sense of decency and standards about what is appropriate in public and what is not.

Second, your remark was a complete mischaracterization of what I have wrote and encouraged in the behavior of celebrities like Mr. Lambert. Not once, not one damn time have I advocated anything even approaching âstraight-actingâ from gays. Not once. Prove otherwise, retract your statement, or else this leaves you as nothing more than a damn liar.

Now this is going to be the last time I’ll make this clear to you. Regardless the genders involved, leading people around on leashes and shoving their face in your crotch has nothing to do with sexual-orientation; it isn’t gay, it isn’t straight, it’s lewd.

If he feels it important to advertise his sexual-orientation through his performances then he can kiss a guy on stage, drape himself in a pride flag, or be carried around by men like Madonna, I don’t care, but the sex act stuff, was indecent and turned a hell of a lot of people off, period.

I’ll not waste my time on the rest of what you had to say, the absurdity of most of your responses (“women can enjoy gay on gay action just like men enjoy women on women action”) speaks for themselves.

I don’t know if you’re a troll here or you genuinely believe this stuff and somehow make it all fit into your world-view. Other people can make up their own minds about you. Either way, all things considered, I have little reason to take much of what you have to say seriously.
posted by Bobby on December 11, 2009

“First of all, my opposition to your party because I disagree with much of their platform and most particularly their concerted efforts to persecute gays and other minorities, in no way, shape, or form should suggest that I have no sense of decency and standards about what is appropriate in public and what is not.”

—If it was appropriate for Madonna to french kiss Britney in front of everyone, it’s appropriate for Lambert to do the same. Unlike you, I look at what breeders do and then see if we’re going too far or not.

“Not once, not one damn time have I advocated anything even approaching âstraight-actingâ from gays. Not once. Prove otherwise, retract your statement, or else this leaves you as nothing more than a damn liar.”

—You don’t like him kissing his keyboardist, putting his crotch on a man’s face and dragging a man by a leash. If he can’t do those things, then he’s being straight-acting. You’re not different than the gays who bash Perez Hilton for being effeminate and for dying his hair pink. It appears to me that you don’t like gays that are authentic.

“Now this is going to be the last time I’ll make this clear to you. Regardless the genders involved, leading people around on leashes and shoving their face in your crotch has nothing to do with sexual-orientation; it isn’t gay, it isn’t straight, it’s lewd.”

—No, it’s sexy, it’s daring, it’s cool. Funny you used the word “lewd.” Florida had a “lewd and lascivious” conduct law that deal with pedophilia, pederasty, public nudity, exposing sexual organs and homosexuality. Thanks to SCOTUS, sodomy laws are invalid so nothing that Lambert did violated any laws. Unless he pulls out his hard dick, he’s not being lewd. Capish?

“If he feels it important to advertise his sexual-orientation through his performances then he can kiss a guy on stage, drape himself in a pride flag, or be carried around by men like Madonna,”

—Who the hell are you to tell him what he can do? Artists don’t follow rules, Picasso didn’t ask his art teacher for permission before he painted Guernica. Great artists challenge conventions and create trends.

“I don’t care, but the sex act stuff, was indecent and turned a hell of a lot of people off, period.”

—Maybe, but that’s because this is a heterosexist culture where pussy is put on a pedestal and man-sexuality isn’t. However, unlike many straight-acting gays, Lambert IS doing something about it. Yesterday Bill O’reilly agreed with Barbara Walter’s decision to name Lambert as one of the most fascinating people of 2009. He was talking to Glenn Beck who also agreed. And while I’m sure they didn’t like his performance, I know they respect his courage which means they have a lot more respect for Lambert than you do.

“I’ll not waste my time on the rest of what you had to say, the absurdity of most of your responses (“women can enjoy gay on gay action just like men enjoy women on women action”) speaks for themselves.”

–No it’s not, I’ve been seing more and more ads from women that want to see their boyfriends sleep with another man. Many straight women also go to gay bars and in Japan, gay anime stories are popular with the ladies. Just because you’re Mr. Monogamy doesn’t mean the entire world follows you.

You know, I’m glad Lambert isn’t a gay activist, I’m glad he doesn’t have to put up with self-censoring homos like you.

One of the reason breeders are comfortable with gay stereotypes is because those stereotypes have a lot more courage and daring than people like you. At least Lambert is comfortable enough with his sexuality to express it publicly, at least he can do what he feels without worrying about what the breeders may think.
posted by DragonScorpion on December 12, 2009

This is about what I expected, more deliberate dishonesty from you:

I offered you a chance to redeem yourself: “Not once, not one damn time have I advocated anything even approaching âstraight-actingâ from gays. Not once. Prove otherwise, retract your statement, or else this leaves you as nothing more than a damn liar.” ~ DragonScorpion

You responded with more of the same LIE: “—You don’t like him kissing his keyboardist, putting his crotch on a man’s face and dragging a man by a leash. If he can’t do those things, then he’s being straight-acting. You’re not different than the gays who bash Perez Hilton for being effeminate and for dying his hair pink. It appears to me that you don’t like gays that are authentic.” ~ Bobby

And this after I, AGAIN, made it ABUNDANTLY clear that I am not in the slightest demanding nor suggesting that he be more “straight-acting”, even stating that I have no problems with him kissing a guy on stage: “If he feels it important to advertise his sexual-orientation through his performances then he can kiss a guy on stage, drape himself in a pride flag, or be carried around by men like Madonna, I don’t care, but the sex act stuff, was indecent and turned a hell of a lot of people off, period.” ~ DragonScorpion

You deliberately chose not to retract your repeated distortions of my comments and deliberately ignored my latest statement proving that I have no qualms with Adam Lambert or any other gay celebrity being public or outward about their sexuality (I just want them to do it with some taste).

Ok, fine, you’ve proven yourself to be a liar. And I have a standing policy to not continue dialog with those who have proven themselves to be liars.

I’ll not be directly addressing you in the future nor reading your posts. And should there be any problems in the future I will be sure to produce this thread so that others are aware that you deliberately distort the views of others.
posted by Bobby on December 12, 2009

I stand by my comments, Lambert doesn’t regret what he did and neither do I, you said:

“And this after I, AGAIN, made it ABUNDANTLY clear that I am not in the slightest demanding nor suggesting that he be more “straight-acting”, even stating that I have no problems with him kissing a guy on stage: “If he feels it important to advertise his sexual-orientation through his performances then he can kiss a guy on stage, drape himself in a pride flag, or be carried around by men like Madonna, I don’t care, but the sex act stuff, was indecent and turned a hell of a lot of people off, period.” ~ DragonScorpion”

—And that’s exactly the problem, WHO ARE YOU TO TELL HIM HOW TO BEHAVE? He’s not Madonna, he’s not Elton John, he is his own person! A trailblazer and revolutionary! You know, all the people I like are criticized, Glen Beck is accused of being inflamatory, O’reilly is accused of getting angry wtih people who spin, Limbaugh is accused of being a racist, Coulter of whatever, the 3 dudes from Million Dollar Listing are accused of various things. Yet ALL OF THEM are brilliant in their own right and all of them are succesful.

“You deliberately chose not to retract your repeated distortions of my comments and deliberately ignored my latest statement proving that I have no qualms with Adam Lambert or any other gay celebrity being public or outward about their sexuality (I just want them to do it with some taste).”

—Funny, John Waters has made a career out of bad taste, do you criticize him as well? If you’re so liberal why can’t you be more open minded about people who don’t share your values?

“I’ll not be directly addressing you in the future nor reading your posts. And should there be any problems in the future I will be sure to produce this thread so that others are aware that you deliberately distort the views of others.”

—Your threats are joke. You think you have any influence over the people here? You’re a newcomer and all the people here are independent thinkers who don’t get manipulated by ideologues like you. Besides, this thread was dead until you came here and I decided to entertain myself with you.

I don’t care if you address me or not. Frankly, I feel sorry for you, the fact that you call what Lambert did “lewd” shows your internalized homophobia. And then you say I don’t make sense because I’m conservative? Guess what, it makes more sense to be a pro-sex conservative than an anti-sex liberal.

And please, don’t lecture me on how evil the GOP is, I expect my party to be evil when it comes to sex, but I don’t expect liberals like you to betray Adam Lambert. That’s unforgivable.