Marjorie Christoffersen seems like a nice enough person by all reports, including those of gay friends and acquaintances.
But Christoffersen made a $100 donation to Prop. 8, which stripped marriage rights from gays and lesbians in California. Now some customers of El Coyote, the landmark Los Angeles restaurant where she worked for two decades, are boycotting.
After angry protests, Christoffersen has tearfully resigned. Meanwhile, some of the other 88 employees have had their hours cut, and business is down about 30%.
Is this outcome the predictable result of taking rights away from a community that has been burned once too often? Collateral damage in an ugly culture war?
Or is it a step too far-punishing an entire business (and a gay-friendly one at that) for the private act of one employee, a generally decent person who can't quite yet wrap her mind around gay marriage?
A few facts are worth noting as we ponder these questions.
Christoffersen's small contribution was a personal one, not supported by the restaurant (except rather indirectly, insofar as it pays her salary).
True, she is the owner's daughter and a familiar fixture there, but at El Coyote she kept her Prop. 8 support to herself (unsurprisingly, given the sympathies of her coworkers and patrons). It became known only as activists scoured donation rolls for "hypocritical" Yes-on-8 donors.
Indeed, in the wake of the controversy over Christoffersen, El Coyote has given $10,000 to the efforts to repeal Prop. 8-a substantial public penance for their employee's private $100 "sin."
El Coyote has many gay employees, including managers. While they were aware of Christoffersen's Mormonism and her conservative political beliefs, they got along well with her. They report that (apart from the marriage issue) she was supportive of her gay friends and coworkers.
Some of those gay coworkers are now hurting. And it's not just because they miss Christoffersen or hate seeing her so upset-she can't discuss the incident without crying-but also because, with business slowing down, they fear for their jobs.
Meanwhile, opponents of marriage equality have begun to use Christoffersen as an example of how gay-rights advocates want to destroy freedom of religion, speech, and conscience.
What do I think?
I think Margie Christoffersen sounds like a basically good person, someone who is wrong on marriage equality but is (or at least was) possibly winnable on that point someday.
I also think the simplistic black-and-white approach that suggests "You're either with us or against us" works even less at the level of day-to-day life than it does for, say, George Bush's foreign policy.
I think punishing El Coyote for the contributions of a single employee-one whose views on this subject hardly seem representative of its management or staff-is certainly overbroad and probably counterproductive.
And yet I also appreciate the outrage of those who want nothing to do with anyone and anything even remotely associated with "Yes on 8"-a campaign which not only took away marriage rights, but did so by despicably portraying gays as a threat to children.
Against that ugly backdrop, it's hard to get worked up about a diner's business slowing down.
What concerns me most, however, is not misdirected punishment of El Coyote, or the occasionally harsh words for Christoffersen.
What concerns me most is the right wing's misusing this case as Exhibit N in their ever-growing catalog of alleged threats to their freedom.
For example, in the National Review Online, Maggie Gallagher refers to the protests and boycott as "extraordinary public acts of hatred" and criticizes "the use of power to silence moral opposition."
But nobody "silenced" Margie Christoffersen. She expressed her viewpoint by contributing; others expressed theirs by boycotting. That's how free expression works.
So call the boycott counterproductive if you like, or reckless, or even mean-spirited. I might quibble with some of your characterizations, but I see your point.
But please don't call it a violation of anyone's rights. Neither Christoffersen nor El Coyote has a pre-existing right to anyone's patronage.
Don't call it a violation of her religious freedom, unless religious freedom means the freedom to strip away others' legal rights without their being free to walk away from you.
And for heaven's sake, don't call it a violation of her freedom of conscience.
Christoffersen is free to think, speak, or vote however she likes. Others are free to avoid her.
In the culture war, as elsewhere, freedom is a sword that cuts both ways.
42 Comments for “Marjorie Christoffersen’s Freedom — and Ours”
posted by Regan DuCasse on
I attended the meeting convened in one section of the restaurant.
Marjie entered after we’d waited for nearly 20 minutes, weepy, collapsing to the point of being held up by her three grown children.
I did not appreciate this, nor her prepared statement essentially putting a guilt trip on those present.
She fled before anyone could talk to her.
But she’s blabbed all over the press. Emoting again. Ah, the helpless martyr.
I grew up in Los Angeles. In a neighborhood filled with white owners whose business were situated in black neighborhoods. Most of their employees were black, as were their patrons.
But their children wouldn’t be attending school with black kids, nor would they live nearby, nor would they have blacks over to their homes as peers and friends.
And they would vote to keep things that way.
Such a disconnect between public politness and private betrayal is the equivalent of what Marjie did.
If she had gay friends, she also had to know the stakes involved. The legacy of discrimination places gay people in the crosshairs of casual violence, isolation, and serious risk to THEIR livelihoods and children.
Lives are at stake, not a difference of opinion.
This is why her histrionics seriously PISS ME OFF as a ploy for sympathy for herself.
She cannot claim having gay friends when such a political issue directly affects their lives.
Being married is a measure of protection from serious vulnerability to a hostile majority.
And she showed that she didn’t want her ‘gay friends’ to have that protection.
To have the same happiness and security SHE has known.
She does not have gay friends, and I’m sick of her behaving like the injured party!
Even the very few people who were forced to resign due to their decision losing their employers business.
They still haven’t learned a lesson from being on the receiving end for a change.
Totally lost on them and it’s a shame.
Amazing how people don’t consider just how much they benefit from gay people after all, and marriage equality wasn’t hurting them at all.
Even so, if the employees of El Coyote are compromised, it’s not the gay folk’s fault.
Marj was in charge after all, and should have figured it out beforehand.
posted by Bobby on
Regan, this is gay McCarthism, pure and simple.
Instead of: “Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist party” gays are asking
“Did you vote or financially supported Proposition-8?”
What if a restaurant was owned by a christian and he decided to fire anyone who voted agaisnt prop-8? Gays would be crying discrimination! Yet this is the exact same thing! This is discrimination.
If I owned an advertising agency, do I have the right to fire any employee who doesn’t belong to the NRA or watch the O’Reilly Factor everyday?
What gays are doing now is turning christians into martyrs. Remember people, martyrs are popular, martyrs inspire donations, martyrs give people a person to love and an enemy to hate. This is why I’m against putting holocaust deniers in prison, part of the reason neo-nazis are so powerful and popular in europe is because they are persecuted. Even the Anti-Defamation League knows this, which is why they monitor hate groups but don’t act agaisnt them unless they engage in a violent act.
If a christian comes to me and says “I used to have a great job, but gays got me fired for my politics.” What am I suppose to tell that person?
We’re turning friends into enemies here! So the woman voted the “wrong way,” maybe she would have supported domestic partnerships. No more, now I’m sure the next donation she makes will be to the American Family Association, the ex-gays or much worse organizations. If she judges all gays for the actions of a few, she’ll become a virulent homophobe.
posted by Regan DuCasse on
No, it wasn’t Bobby. First of all because NO ONE called for Marj to be fired. No one demanded that she should be.
Gay folks took their business elsewhere and the restaurant’s profits and business plummeted.
And there is no reason for any gay person to patronize a business they don’t want to.
But especially if there was a DIRECT AFFECT on THEIR lives from those who voted for this amendment.
The affect on her gay patrons was instantaneous and profound. Her business might pick up again.
Can’t say that about the marriages in CA, can you?
Every single motive, every single thing gay people do or say is so misrepresented, so distorted, it’s almost impossible to do ANYTHING.
Regardless of what violations a gay person suffers, those opposed to gay people having ANYTHING…think themselves victims of gay abuse.
The whole marriage issue was seen as an assault by gay people on marriage, family and children.
All they had to do was try to marry for people to take offense.
Blacks have no reason to tolerate racism or racists who work against their freedom.
So why should someone who worked against a freedom for gay people be tolerated silently and without them knowing how we feel or what it’s DONE?!
McCarthyism was about seeking out the innocent and making them suspect in everything they do regardless of not doing it.
Marjorie actually did something against her gay patrons.
If anything, gay people are MORE victims of McCarthyism.
That’s what the ads for Prop. 8 were ALL about.
Fear and suspicion of gay people getting married and their motives and competence for everything else seen as sinister.
I’m sick of how ass backwards this shit is about who is victimizing who.
And who deserves to command the rights of another human being.
posted by ReganDuCasse on
BTW Bobby, she did NOT consult with anyone gay about the impact of her vote or donation.
She refused to have a discussion with anyone gay AFTERWARDS.
Most of the opposition IS taking themselves out of reach.
Or they will deny the things they said beforehand that WERE extremely damaging and outright libel and slander.
There was always BEFORE the amendment passed when there was an opportunity for exchange, involvement,real contact.
Think the opposition did anything towards that?
No.
Think that the rallies or protests or VERY FEW resignations made a dent in whether they were ‘friends’ or not.
Like I said.
Marj, if she had gay friends…would know about the long legacy of discrimination and what it’s done to DAMAGE gay lives.
‘Disagreements’ as so many of the opposition like to call it, don’t amend Constitutions and leave gay families so vulnerable to whatever hostile whims someone is willing to commit to.
When you are friends with a minority that has suffered TREMENDOUS isolation and vulnerability, you DON’T vote for things that would continue it.
And you certainly don’t try and say you love them when so much damage has been done, and will continue to be but for having no Constitutional protections and access.
I have gay friends. Trans friends. I have counseled gay teens and had them live with me.
I’d rather DIE than betray ANY of them with votes that I KNOW would leave them without the very laws that would help eliminate the worst of prejudice against them.
I have bounced as many people as possible from my life who express anti gay sentiment.
THAT is what a friend would do, knowing the stakes.
Marj chose where her butter was and some people made her regret her decision.
As I said. Business for her could pick up and some patrons said they’d remain loyal.
But those thousands of marriages won’t have their legal protections pick up.
Indeed, now the call is to make sure that those marriages ARE voided.
She didn’t anticipate what might have happened to HER and the business.
But she damn well knew what would happen to her gay ‘friends’ if her church had any say in their lives.
That’s what makes any idea that such a relatively TAME response to such a profound affect on gay people would all of a sudden make more enemies is ridiculous.
If that’s all it takes, they were never friends and weren’t going to be anyway.
posted by Bobby on
“First of all because NO ONE called for Marj to be fired. No one demanded that she should be.”
—Boycotting a restaurant is calling for someone to be fired. When my country music comrades boycotted the Dixie Chicks, and told country stations not to play their crap, we wanted them ruined. And indeed, we succeded, they had to go into another musical genre. The difference is that we didn’t go after an enemy that was weaker than us. The Dixie Chicks had money and power, that waitress has nothing.
“Blacks have no reason to tolerate racism or racists who work against their freedom.”
—I don’t know about blacks, but I know Alan Dershowitz has said he would defend Hitler if given a chance. I know several jewish lawyers have defended holocaust deniers. I guess what you’re saying is that blacks only like freedom when it applies to them.
“So why should someone who worked against a freedom for gay people be tolerated silently and without them knowing how we feel or what it’s DONE?!”
—Fine, I love guns, I guess if I ever own a company, I’m gonna fire everyone who votes democrat or donates to Handgun Control Inc. If that’s the kind of world you want to live in, so be it.
“Marjorie actually did something against her gay patrons.”
—Bullshit, I’m gay, I’m not planning to marry, can’t find a man to date me twice. So she did nothing against me. Wether you like it or not, we live in a democracy, and sometimes laws are created or destroyed by referendum. If prop-8 had been about banning the consumption of meat, you would not support carnivores firing any vegetarians that voted/donated the wrong way.
“BTW Bobby, she did NOT consult with anyone gay about the impact of her vote or donation.”
—It’s a free country, she doesn’t have to consult with anyone about anything. You didn’t consult with me about voting for Obama.
“She refused to have a discussion with anyone gay AFTERWARDS.”
—That’s taking the high road, after being humiliated, the best thing is to leave and not give your enemies a chance to strike twice.
“Think the opposition did anything towards that?
No.”
—Every newspaper is california was agaisnt prop-8, as usual, the debate was one-sided, the liberals dominated the culture, and now you’re pissed off because people made up their own minds.
“THAT is what a friend would do, knowing the stakes.”
—I don’t think you want a friend, I think you want a clone. You want people to think like you and vote like you. My friends are NOT expected to vote like me. I hate the fact that my best friend voted for Obama because according to him, “McCain is too old.” But we’re still gonna be friends.
It’s too bad your standards are so narrow-minded. I’m the one that’s used to being called a bigot, but apparently, you’re a bigot against anyone who doesn’t think like you do!
It is one thing to hate ideology, but you actually hate people. You want that clueless waitress to be fired and have her home foreclosed. You’re not different from christians that want to fire gays.
posted by queerunity on
not that i am a fan of capitalism, but the beauty of the system is she can say and do what she wants and we can choose to be patrons or not.
http://www.queersunited.blogspot.com
posted by Mad John on
I get it: When Bobby boycotts someone (the Dixie Chicks) who offend his politics, it’s noble. When some gays boycott people who offend their politics (and indeed take the extra step of directly attacking their families), it’s “McCarthyism.”
Moral relativism at its lowest.
posted by ReganDuCasse on
Bobby, who gives a shit if YOU don’t want to marry? The point is, the gay couples who DO, should be able to have that choice.
THAT is the point.
And a boycott is NOT an active call for someone to be fired, especially in accusing them of something they didn’t do, like collude with a Communist for the overthrow of our government.
Marj actually DID support a cause that is harmful and HAS caused harm.
The difference between voting for McCain or Obama didn’t have the direct affect on anyone’s marriage as Prop. 8 did.
This is NOT about disagreeing or having someone agree with me at all times.
The LEGACY of discrimination against gay people has done incacuable harm and empowers and enables straight people to do WHATEVER they feel like with little legal recourse.
If you’re a gay man, perhaps you’re one of those that hasn’t REALLY had to be in the trenches or didn’t care to be.
Maybe YOUR issues have been silent and without challenging anyone whose agenda is to see you disappeared or without any legal protections.
Well, Bobby…some of us NEVER had that luxury of sitting on our ass and believing it’ll all take care of itself.
I’m a black, heterosexual woman. I became of legal voting age in 1976 that was a period of great change for women whose legal rights were being fought for.
What would I look like sitting around enjoying MY freedoms bought by some VERY committed women and blacks and Jews and gay people, but I’m supposed to sit around and allow the defamation and violations against gay people without a FIGHT?
Maybe YOUR style of doing so is different, but you don’t have any fucking idea to criticize what I do.
I already said, I tried to be diplomatic and call Marj and perhaps help her deal with this issue in such a way that she could understand.
But she can’t be bothered.
That’s on HER, not me.
When you fuck over the very patronage you DEPEND on, it’s a bad business decision on HER part.
Gay folks aren’t obligated to sharpen the knives they get stabbed with.
If Marj’s employees mean SO much to her, she can take out a loan to float the restaurant until things get better.
As I said, her business could well recover.
The marriage situation with the gay couples? Not so.
So YOU’RE just taking the usual whiny and cheap tack, that I’m a hater of people.
That’s so patently STUPID, I won’t dignify it with an answer.
I know plenty of superficial cowards in all kinds of stripes.
Yeah, YOU don’t want to get married.
So what?
This fight is for strong and effective people like me, if you have a BETTER way of handling this have at it.
But don’t EVEN try that cheap shot unless YOU got something to show for the efforts others are demonstrating.
Strength isn’t hate. Education and fairness is peace.
Deal with it.
posted by Bobby on
“If you’re a gay man, perhaps you’re one of those that hasn’t REALLY had to be in the trenches or didn’t care to be.”
—Other than being discriminated against myself, and having voluntered for a gay youth organization that fights against gay suicide, and having worked for a gay newspaper, no, I haven’t been in the trenches.
“Maybe YOUR style of doing so is different, but you don’t have any fucking idea to criticize what I do.”
—I don’t know what you do, but I know what gay activists are doing. Knocking a plastic cross out of some old woman doesn’t make us look good. I know PR. What gays are doing is bad PR. Just like homophobes joke that maybe Fred Phelps is a secret gay agent working for us, some gays are helping the homophobes by their actions. This is worse the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence invading a church and taking communinion. Getting people fired, sending white powder to churches, this is gestapo-like tactics without the beatings, at least not yet.
You want to boycott a business, fine, I have no problem with that. But publishing the name of individuals who donated money is an invasion of privacy, even if its legal.
But go ahead and engage in your radical tactics, all you’re doing is creating a strong opposition. ACT-UP tried the same game, it didn’t work.
“Yeah, YOU don’t want to get married.
So what?”
—Oh, you’re wrong. I want to get married, but not if it means destroying people’s lives. I am not Machiavellian, the ends don’t always justify the means.
Mad John, you don’t get it. I boycotted rich country singers that insulted the president in a foreign country. People like you attacked a poor dumass waitress that donated $100. There’s a big difference. Nobody forced the Dixie Chicks to betray their country so publicly. That waitress made a private donation, her name should have never been exposed. Privacy is not just for irresponsible pregnant girls that want to have abortions.
posted by Mad John on
Ah, so the difference is economic? Clarify me then on the threshold, Bobby. At what income level does someone become rich enough to boycott? What’s the dollar amount where my free speech rights kick in? Because that’s EXACTLY what you’re claiming – that my right to withhold my patronage should depend on the economic status of the person offending me. That’s beyond ridiculous.
I’ll additionally point out that while the DCs just shot off their mouths, Prop 8 donors actually took PHYSICAL ACTION TO HARM PEACEFUL FAMILIES USING COERCIVE FORCE (i.e., the state). It takes a mighty skewed value system to believe the latter is moral and the former is not.
posted by Bobby on
Look Mad John, if you want to act like Eugene McCarthy and persecute poor blue collar individuals because they donated $100 to a cause. Fine, go ahead. Legally I can’t stop you. And if you want to make the gay community look like the Spanish Inquisition, go ahead. And if later on you want people who voted for prop-8 to wear 8’s in their shirts so you can identify them and send them to concentration camps, go ahead, no problem. And if you don’t understand how easily a free country can be turned into a nazi state, fine whatever.
Just remember, John, what goes around comes around. Heterosexuals outnumber us, they are vastly armed, they are getting sick of us, they are getting angrier, I hate to be a prophet of doom, but when that anger explodes, I don’t want to be near a gay bar or gay getto.
So you watch yourself and how you fight for gay rights, because they are watching YOU. And your buddy Obama is nothing but an opportunist, if he has to sacrifice the gays to unite the country, he will do it. He’s not George W. Bush, following his principles and doing whatever he likes. In fact, few people know what Obama is about. One minute he’s against General Petraeus, now he supports him, one minute he’s against the war, now he’s for it (in Afghanistan and he’s not gonna leave Iraq right away). One minute he’s promising tax cuts, then he’s demanding collective sacrifices. One minute he’s inviting gays, then he’s inviting Rick Warren. So Obama is not your friend and he will not protect you.
posted by KevinCP on
There seem to be some people who believe they can be friends of the gay community, take their money, smile at them, and then stab them in the back with a political action they took. They self-justify this behavior by saying “It’s my conscience” or “It’s my religious belief”. I’m sorry, but if you have a belief that causes you to needlessly take actions harmful to those you call friends or family, then you need to re-evaluate those beliefs.
To think that you can take harmful actions against someone else and should suffer no consequences because “it’s a belief” is utterly unrealistic. On this planet, in this country, there can be very real consequences to your political actions. You are not entitled to special protections just because of “belief”. If that were the case, white supremacists should expect no negative consequences from society because, well, it’s just their “belief”.
I’m sure Marj and others like her are otherwise warm and wonderful people, but that does not excuse misguided actions taken due to misguided beliefs.
posted by Bobby on
Kevin, have you ever worked for a homophobe? Have you ever benefited from straight people by selling them stuff, taking their money, getting recommended for a promotion by them? What about hairdressers? Do they not cut everyone’s hair?
You’re already dealing with people like Marj on a daily basis. Do you fly? Pilots are famously homophobic. They might have contributed to prop-8, are we gonna demand that American Airlines fire everyone who contributed?
Face it, there are millions of Marjs out there. Just don’t complain when the christian start taking revenge.
posted by ReganDuCasse on
Glad to hear it Bobby, that you’re doing work for gay youth.
Haven’t you noticed something Orwellian about ANY of the complaints from the opposition?
What about BEFORE Nov. 4th Bobby? The gay community was slandered, libeled and defamed LONG before any vicious old lady got a cross knocked from her hand.
Literally EVERY thing you heard (like the white powder), couldn’t be proven to have been done by anyone gay.
There have literally been a FEW incidents of resignations (due to losing vital business), to anecdotal acts of vandalism.
WAY before the rallies and other demonstrations of upset, did the opposition appreciate gay people BEFORE all that happened?
No.
Our side had to do SOMETHING cathartic, Bobby.
There was NO holding back the dam of pain and outrage and fear we felt out there.
And even though the dam burst, there STILL wasn’t NEARLY the damage done to the opposition they CLAIM.
That’s right, we DO deal with the Marj’s out there because they are smiling, phony COWARDS.
We needed to know WHERE they are, Bobby. We needed to know WHO.
Personally, if it were all up to me…I’d do an EDUCATIONAL blitz and go door to door, and engage the opposition in EDUCATION forums.
They have hijacked ALL the information and distorted it into stereotypes to wrest fear.
We should DEMAND opportunity to engage whoevre in being educated and anyone who runs from allowing such opportunity can be called on it as cowards who only want to distort or hide the truth.
If they were concerned about the truth, they can damn well act like they at LEAST will have public access so that people can sit down calmly and LEARN from each other.
Education is peace. Fear isn’t.
Ignorance and need are the dangers in our lives.
THAT is only fair and right to emphazise and ask, who has had a legacy to fear who the most?
Fair questions. Fair to be only answered by contact.
The other side is refusing. They did LONG before anyone got upset.
So rather than chastise gay folks for the cartharsis they needed, why don’t you join in encouraging EDUCATION?
BTW, Christians never ‘started’ taking revenge. They ALWAYS take it.
It doesn’t take much to set them off on a tear. Like, having a funeral or getting married or taking in children with absolutely no home that will love them.
Serving in uniform.
They are getting more offended by being shown UP, than being shown to be right.
Taking revenge? When weren’t they poised to do just that at any opportunity?
Now they are crowing about winning majority. As if they wouldn’t.
How hard could that be against a traditionally unpopular minority?
Get real Bobby. They were on a campaign of fear and defamation two decades ago and won’t let up. Their tactics don’t have to change.
Look at Prop. 6 profiled in ” Milk”.
I worked against that proposition THIRTY YEARS ago as a very young woman of twenty.
And even THEN they were using children as being threatened.
We NEVER had any wriggle room. For tears, for anger, for appeals, for compassion….not EVER.
Better to go down swinging if we go down at all, man.
They don’t appreciate how compassionately and legally we go about the battle NOW.
What bright ideas can YOU come up with to change things?
Gay people have been tame enough, considering.
If you don’t have any bright ideas. I don’t want to hear another complaint about the VERY few incidents that occurred and were negative.
All the POSITIVE, however much it outweighed everything, isn’t appreciated, even by you.
So, you got a solution?
If not, I really don’t care to hear how much gay people screwed up by getting upset.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
No, it wasn’t Bobby. First of all because NO ONE called for Marj to be fired. No one demanded that she should be.
Not true. Here’s what protesters were demanding:
Hey, hey, ho, ho, Marjorie has got to go!
Furthermore, protesters were attacking and screaming at customers of El Coyote, including other gay and lesbian people.
But the anger was apparent as the few customers of the evening walked in, including a lesbian couple. They were met with angry chanting of “Shame on you, shame on you, shame on you!”
Bobby has it pegged: gay McCarthyism.
The whole marriage issue was seen as an assault by gay people on marriage, family and children.
Mainly because that is exactly what the gay liberal community made clear it was doing.
A word of advice; if you don’t want to be associated with child sexualizers and people who want to legalize plural, sibling, and incestuous marriages, repudiate them publicly instead of supporting and endorsing them.
But I wonder how far the “gay marriage” cause would get if it repudiated the ACLU and its stance on plural marriage?
And finally:
What would I look like sitting around enjoying MY freedoms bought by some VERY committed women and blacks and Jews and gay people, but I’m supposed to sit around and allow the defamation and violations against gay people without a FIGHT?
In other words, you’re exploiting gay people so that you can have an excuse for picketing, protesting, and demanding that people be fired from their jobs, and you use other peoples’ sexual orientation as your rationalization for hateful speech and actions, even violence, against white people, conservatives, and religious people.
Do us a favor, Regan; fight for your own cause, and quit using ours as a cover for your behavior. Or better yet, if you’re going to go protest and throw screaming fits, go picket the parking lots and throw screaming fits in front of businesses and churches in Watts or Compton, or in the predominantly-Muslim areas, with as much gusto as you’ve been able to do in front of El Coyote.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
And here we see the root of the problem.
This is why her histrionics seriously PISS ME OFF as a ploy for sympathy for herself.
She cannot claim having gay friends when such a political issue directly affects their lives.
Funny, that’s not what they say.
El Coyote has many gay employees, including managers. While they were aware of Christoffersen?s Mormonism and her conservative political beliefs, they got along well with her. They report that (apart from the marriage issue) she was supportive of her gay friends and coworkers.
Some of those gay coworkers are now hurting. And it?s not just because they miss Christoffersen or hate seeing her so upset?she can?t discuss the incident without crying?but also because, with business slowing down, they fear for their jobs.
Why don’t you start yelling “Shame on you, shame on you, shame on you!” at those people, Regan?
posted by Regan DuCasse on
NDT
I don’t use hateful speech, I didn’t support any yelling or any of the otherwise negative type of behavior that went on.
Not EVER.
I didn’t yell at Marj. Aren’t you paying attention? I’ve tried to reach out to her, in a caring manner. Yes, the protesters said what they did, but the bottom line is…she lost the restaurant a lot of business.
El Coyote didn’t take orders from the protesters. They have a bottom line too you know.
As for the gay people repudiating those who do support child abuse and whatever crazy marriage situations….heterosexuals are hard pressed to do the same when any of THEIR number act out in dangerous ways.
THEY aren’t required to be held accountable as those of suspect classes tend to be.
We’re talking about gay people not getting credit for the good that IS done. For the repudiations that DO take place if an incident or whatever is brought to our attention. Sometimes it’s not.
As I said, it’s Marj’s decision that cost her and her employees their jobs. This is a matter of people not wanting to further patronize a business and the lost profits.
Marj should have thought of that.
As for YOU claiming I’m exploiting gay people so that I can yell and demand people be forced from their jobs…where do you get off making any such a suggestion?
I didn’t participate in any such action at all. I wouldn’t.
I attended a meeting to hear Marj, and I reached out to her.
I was at the rally, but I didn’t participate in any calls for her ouster.
So YOU are making an accusation and throwing a stone, buddy.
I just said already, that growing up…there were white proprietors in my black neighborhood who had black employees and black patrons.
The distance between THEIR reality and that of the black people they thought they could keep ‘in their place’, destroyed my neighborhood in an explosion of riots in ’65.
I was here. I was six year old. And that cost black people THEIR jobs and the ability to have good and services in their own neighborhoods.
Gay people did nothing at all that drastic and dangerous. Not even close.
But to hear the conservatives and homophobes out there, they equivocate the reaction from gay people as such.
I don’t yell. I don’t call for people to be fired.
I saw where the problem was and Marj refuses to deal with it the way SHE should have.
Not anyone else.
There was ALWAYS the years BEFORE Prop. 8 NDT.
And again, SHE had to know how the legacy of discrimination has HURT her employees and her gay friends BEFORE.
So don’t give ME shit…
Ask HER why SHE would participate in an action that WOULD hurt her gay friends?
Ask the straight folks who voted for it why THEY didn’t think of all the gay people who have been fired, lost their children, lost their LIVES, couldn’t care for their significant other for lack of marriage equality.
Gay people have ALWAYS been at risk of hurting and being hurt.
If these are Marj’s friends, she…nor any of her family that cared so much, wouldn’t have voted for something that exacerbated that hurt.
And the hurt felt, what manifest in those protests and yelling and anger.
I can’t say in all honesty, no one could…that were they in that position, they wouldn’t have done the same thing.
And NDT…don’t give me orders to do what I never did in the first place.
posted by BOBBY on
” The gay community was slandered, libeled and defamed LONG before any vicious old lady got a cross knocked from her hand.”
—Yes, back then we where victims, now we’re victimizers. How do you like it?
Vicious old lady? Do you have any idea how cowardly we look for attacking that frail thing? We’re confirming all the stereotypes about gays being so weak that we can’t even handle someone our own size.
I’m all for self-defense and proactive action. But knocking crosses out of old ladies is not my style. Getting little people fired is not my style.
The left had adopted McCarthian tactics, and not just gays, if Ann Coulter and any conservative speaker can’t go to any college without security, without nuts jumping on stage, without crazies protesting speeches inside the auditorium, that shows that the left doesn’t believe in free speech but in censorship through intimidation.
If gays are gonna use those tactics, the fallout will be great, we’re gonna end up pissing off people who don’t even care about gay rights one way or another. The problem with you, Reagan is that you spend too much time with gays to see how the rest of the world thinks.
posted by Mad John on
Bobby, you seem to be flustered and making assumptions – I voted for Barr, not Obama. But look, I understand the feeling that people like Marjorie are low-hanging fruit. I’d rather go after the big donors, ideally (and am also boycotting Cinemark, for instance, among others). But that’s not to say the shunning/shaming isn’t valid even in the case of people like MC (at least if you believe moral culpability isn’t a function of economic status). And to back down from working for what’s right (i.e., equal treatment under the law) because some people might get mad, well, that’s just cowardly.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
I didn’t participate in any such action at all. I wouldn’t.
I attended a meeting to hear Marj, and I reached out to her.
I was at the rally, but I didn’t participate in any calls for her ouster.
Ah yes, the calls that you were originally denying had ever happened in the first place. In fact, you emphasized that NO ONE had ever called for Marj’s ouster.
No, it wasn’t Bobby. First of all because NO ONE called for Marj to be fired. No one demanded that she should be.
So given that your story is already contradicted by the facts, what exactly should we be believing here?
And this, I think, is the most instructive statement you’ve ever made into your whole mindset.
I just said already, that growing up…there were white proprietors in my black neighborhood who had black employees and black patrons.
The distance between THEIR reality and that of the black people they thought they could keep ‘in their place’, destroyed my neighborhood in an explosion of riots in ’65.
I was here. I was six year old. And that cost black people THEIR jobs and the ability to have good and services in their own neighborhoods.
I’m sorry, Regan; WHO, exactly, destroyed those businesses and cost black people their jobs?
Was it the white business owners? Are you claiming that these white business owners were out torching their own businesses, trashing neighborhood homes, and looting?
Or was it the black community who decided violence, rioting, looting, and setting fire to businesses and homes was a good idea?
Just like how the Rodney King riots resulted in the destruction of 2,000 Korean-owned businesses, which was then rationalized as being necessary because, as the black community claims, Koreans hate black people.
Next:
As for the gay people repudiating those who do support child abuse and whatever crazy marriage situations….heterosexuals are hard pressed to do the same when any of THEIR number act out in dangerous ways.
THEY aren’t required to be held accountable as those of suspect classes tend to be.
Riiiiiiight. Suuuuuuuure.
And finally:
Ask the straight folks who voted for it why THEY didn’t think of all the gay people who have been fired, lost their children, lost their LIVES, couldn’t care for their significant other for lack of marriage equality.
Only certain “straight folks”, Regan.
For some reason, you and your fellow so-called “marriage equality” supporters haven’t started showing up at black-owned or Muslim-owned businesses and churches, screaming about how their employees support hate, boycotting them, trying to shame their customers, and barricading their parking lots.
Moreover, we also note that you and your screams about “marriage equality” and how anyone who supported marriage bans wanted to get gays fired, have them lose their jobs, have them lose their children, couldn’t care for their significant other, and whatnot were replaced by cries of “pro-gay” and “gay-supportive” when it was people of the “correct” political affiliation and color proclaiming it.
What that makes pretty obvious is that you don’t really care about “marriage equality”; you’re only using “marriage equality” as an excuse for violence and hatred against people you don’t particularly like.
posted by ReganDuCasse on
Bobby, I’ll admit that I was mistaken about calls for Marj’s ouster.
But that doesn’t mean the restaurant had to give into the demand, right?
Still stands that I didn’t participate in any calls to action against Marj.
As to the rest, no…it was black people who torched those businesses. That’s the thing about people who control a minority’s rights and deny them..they don’t have a clue and don’t care just how much capital they’ve spent in the patience and tolerance of that minority.
Until a spark of something puts them over the edge.
How long is a group supposed to be pushed and pushed and pushed Bobby, until a breaking point?
You’re all ove ME about this, and I’ve notice you’re not really addressing just HOW long people are supposed to wait for justice?
All you’re doing is being contrarian with no solutions of your own.
The only other people who behaved the way you are, were avowed homopobes.
They managed to turn the argument into an attack on ME, instead of the issue of injustice and how much people are expected to take without getting angry and acting out in ways NO ONE WANTS or perhaps can’t control.
I am unsympathetic.That’s all.
And why shouldn’t I be? I’ve told straight folks about the wrong direction they are taking for decades.
But I haven’t committed an action against anyone, and wouldn’t.
Don’t take my lack of sympathy as an attack, that’s a convenient way to distort things yourself, bub.
YOu’re only using your contrarian attitude as an excuse to attack me and distort the facts of my personal behavior, while being incapable of expressing any BETTER ideas.
BTW, were YOU in protests or calling any black or Muslim folks out?
As a matter of fact, I HAVE picked up the phone and dealt with the black folks and told them exactly what I found in the error of their ways.
I’ve written an award winning stage play that addresses the black/gay contention over sexuality.
I don’t scream and attack, remember?
I have done things far more diplomatically than you want to address.
Later for you NDT, you’re really tiresome.
The fact remains that gay folks haven’t come even close to giving as good as they have gotten.
And I doubt ever will.
What about BEFORE the protests and confrontations then, Bobby?
See what straight people were willing to do even WITHOUT all that happening?
What about THAT?
posted by Bobby on
Mad John, I give you credit for voting for Bob Barr. I like him to.
Reagan,
“But that doesn’t mean the restaurant had to give into the demand, right?”
—True, but they where under great pressure.
“How long is a group supposed to be pushed and pushed and pushed Bobby, until a breaking point?”
—So are gays supposed to have our own Rodney King riots? Is that going to help us? I love the movie Do the Right Thing, however, the question Spike Lee fails to answer is where are blacks supposed to get pizza after destroying the last pizza joint in their neighborhood? Just like every racist was celebrating the Rodney King riots, every homophobe celebrates when we become victimizers.
“You’re all ove ME about this, and I’ve notice you’re not really addressing just HOW long people are supposed to wait for justice?”
—I don’t know how long, as long as it takes. Do you think persecuting anyone who donated to prop-8 will get us closer to gay marriage? Don’t you think it might have the opposite effect?
“All you’re doing is being contrarian with no solutions of your own.”
—I haven’t offered solutions because I know history and I know big social changes like this take 10 or 20 years. It’s a very slow evolution. My solution is to get a domestic partnership or civil union wherever it’s available. If it’s not available and you don’t want to move, a good lawyer can help you get many essential protections like a power of attorney, a will, etc. For example, some gay couples video tape their will to avoid succesful court challenges.
“And why shouldn’t I be? I’ve told straight folks about the wrong direction they are taking for decades.”
—Maybe if you where gay and had to come out to your parents, you’d understand. You give them the information, as much or as little as they take or want. Then you let time pass, you let them convince themselves. Getting angry with them and dropping them out of your life doesn’t do anything.
“BTW, were YOU in protests or calling any black or Muslim folks out?”
—-I don’t do protests. And there’s no one calling the blacks or muslims out, they’re too scared to do that. Besides, it’s a waste of time, young people are supportive of gay marriage, let them turn 30 or 40, and they’ll change the country.
“I’ve written an award winning stage play that addresses the black/gay contention over sexuality.”
—Well, good for you. And I’m not being sarcastic.
“See what straight people were willing to do even WITHOUT all that happening?
What about THAT?”
—I don’t know, they seem less homophobic than they used to be, but they’re still pretty grossed out by same-sex displays (unless it involves women). Still, 70%+ of this country supports gays in the military, and I think that’s the issue that will help them come around on gay marriage. First they see us as soldiers, then as heroes, then as their equals.
But remember this, we have to control ourselves, a lot of gays are getting a little nuttier than usual. I saw footage of activist gays disrupting a church service, screaming and shouting INSIDE a building in Michigan. What the hell does that accomplish?
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Bobby, I’ll admit that I was mistaken about calls for Marj’s ouster.
But that doesn’t mean the restaurant had to give into the demand, right?
And here we thought you were against people making such demands in the first place.
I don’t use hateful speech, I didn’t support any yelling or any of the otherwise negative type of behavior that went on.
Not EVER.
Why don’t you condemn and repudiate those gay and lesbian people who made such demands, as well as those gay people who screamed and shouted “”Shame on you, shame on you, shame on you!” — especially since you make it clear that there is NO excuse for such behavior and that it is “not EVER” appropriate — instead of blaming the restaurant?
I believe the answer is right here.
As to the rest, no…it was black people who torched those businesses. That’s the thing about people who control a minority’s rights and deny them..they don’t have a clue and don’t care just how much capital they’ve spent in the patience and tolerance of that minority.
Until a spark of something puts them over the edge.
How long is a group supposed to be pushed and pushed and pushed Bobby, until a breaking point?
As we see here, Regan admits that black people are responsible for torching their own homes, looting their own neighborhoods, and driving out through their own actions the businesses that serve them…..but then tries to blame all of these actions committed by black people against other black people in a black neighborhood on white people.
Sort of like a child screaming, “If you don’t give me what I want, I’m going to break my own toys!”
BTW, were YOU in protests or calling any black or Muslim folks out?
There are two problems with that statement:
1) Why would I be protesting black or Muslim folks when I’m not even protesting white folks?
2) Why would I assume that screaming names and insults and blockading property would do anything other than antagonize people?
Meanwhile, the “telephone call” indeed. You threw a public hissy fit and were protesting out in front of white and Mormon-owned businesses over a lousy $100 donation. Why are there no public protests and screaming fits like the ones you pulled in front of El Coyote in front of black and Muslim-owned businesses and churches?
And finally to Bobby’s statement:
I saw footage of activist gays disrupting a church service, screaming and shouting INSIDE a building in Michigan. What the hell does that accomplish?
It lets people like Regan fulfill their need for violence and antireligious bigotry against white people and conservatives — as is obvious from the fact that the same things haven’t happened inside a black church or a Muslim mosque.
They just happen to use gays and lesbians as a convenient excuse and smokescreen.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
And more specifically, Bobby, the phenomenon is not unusual; it was similar to the motivation of Obama’s mentor and supporter Bill Ayers.
Convinced that all whites were born tainted with the original sin of ?skin privilege,? the fighting brigade of the New Left internalized racialist thinking as hatred of their own whiteness. ?All white babies are pigs,? declared one Weatherman. On one occasion the feminist poet Robin Morgan was breast-feeding her son at the offices of the radical journal Rat. A Weatherwoman saw this and told her, ?You have no right to have that pig male baby.? ?How can you say that?? Morgan asked. ?What should I do?? ?Put it in the garbage,? the Weatherwoman answered.
posted by BOBBY on
Thanks for explaining, North Dallas.
posted by ReganDuCasse on
OK NDT, you really like playing this game?
What are you doing?
You obviously have no idea what you’re talking about and you certainly don’t know me.
And the people that do, would find YOU offensive with regard to what you’re accusing me of and the claims you are making.
You’re committing libel here. But of course, considering you’re behind the safety of your monitor, there isn’t much I can do about it.
It’s simply pathetic and masturbatory.
I am and always will be a staunch straight ally.
How many of them show up here in IGF?
Now you’re accusing me of hating white people for simply pointing out the historical context and social dynamics that most people NEVER understand.
You’re fortunate that you’re allowed here, because rather than make a CONTRIBUTION as to a BETTER strategy to change things.
You spent some time thinking up ways to attack and make assumptions about me as if they are facts about me.
And still, you didn’t bring any bright ideas.
And Bobby, the response in these protest are absolutely nothing like a ‘Rodney King type’ riot.
I hope you’re kidding because that’s too stupid for you to be saying something like that.
In case you hadn’t noticed, such activity has receded and as reported, there were VERY FEW negative incidents, comparatively.
None of which have been life threatening or could be directly attributed to someone gay.
Worse things have happened from the other side.
Indeed, a lesbian woman up in SF was gang raped, and two Ecuadoran brothers were attacked by a carful of thugs who thought they were gay.
One of the brothers was beaten with a baseball bat and stabbed to death.
These two acts of horrific violence cannot and never will compare to whatever happened since Nov. 4th and those upset by the passage of Prop. 8
And NONE of these was repudiated by ANYONE from the opposition.
Even that UCC church shooting in Knoxville that was targeted for it’s inclusion of gay people was NEVER repudiated by anyone in the press, even though the shooter in part was motivated by the liberal/gay bashing literature of Mike Savage, Sean Hannity and Bill O’Reilly.
NONE of them said a thing about such an outrage, although their names were on it.
But you and NDT are doing something really weird and uncalled for.
You’re turning this forum and thread into an attack thread over something I DIDN’T DO and didn’t support and said so.
And apparently it doesn’t matter.
If it doesn’t matter than what are you doing?
What’s it for and what’s the point?
Now that NDT has made me out to be a homophobic, anti white, riot mongering hater…
For the record, I had major surgery on both legs 10 weeks ago> I have lupus and nerve damage in my legs. I had to attend the meeting at El Coyote in a lot of pain, and I went to the rallies in a wheelchair.
I’m still in terrible pain and sometimes I’m not as coherent as I’d like to be.
I also lost my job because of health setbacks and right now, I’m not in the mood for being attacked over something I didn’t do and didn’t support and haven’t had much opportunity to repudiate.
Or get into the streets as much as I’d like.
If you think I’m such a dangerous, homophobic, riot mongering white hater…whatcha gonna DO about it?
If it makes you feel all warm a fuzzy and wonderful to come at me…WHATEVER.
I’m so SURE Marj Christofferson would just LOVE to hear from you boys on what you did to that umemployed black lady with health problems who tried to call her with an olive branch.
Are you going to call her and tell her I was there with a molotov cocktail and really called to get her fired and burn down the restaurant.
You are a twisted piece of work, NDT.
Make yourself happy. Just what would you like to have happen to me since I’ve been such a horrible person and didn’t do what YOU think I should have by YOUR lights?
So let’s hear the strategies and great ideas you have that would help the situation…
Riiiiight…
No point in asking YOU about THAT.
posted by ReganDuCasse on
I meant to say SOME of which couldn’t all be attributed to gay people committing.
posted by Bobby on
“And Bobby, the response in these protest are absolutely nothing like a ‘Rodney King type’ riot.”
—No, at least not yet. But I’m saying that if gays keep getting more radical, they’re gonna end up doing something like the Rodney King riots. That did not help blacks and it won’t help gays.
“In case you hadn’t noticed, such activity has receded and as reported”
—I’m glad to hear that.
“Indeed, a lesbian woman up in SF was gang raped,”
—I read about it. But she’s not just a victim of homophobia, she’s a victim of illegal immigration and gun control. San Francisco is a sanctuary city that protects illegal aliens. They’re soft on crime, they make it impossible for civilians to carry guns legally. What else can I say? You say I offer no solutions, well, I do offer solutions, but my solutions are simple and people don’t like simple solutions. So instead of letting lesbians carry guns and enforcing immigration laws, San Fracisco gays will have another candlelight vigil.
“and two Ecuadoran brothers were attacked by a carful of thugs who thought they were gay.”
—That’s another tragedy, in yet another city with gun control laws.
“And NONE of these was repudiated by ANYONE from the opposition.”
—Ah, but my behavior is not based on what the opposition does or does not do. My principles are above all that.
“part was motivated by the liberal/gay bashing literature of Mike Savage, Sean Hannity and Bill O’Reilly.”
—Don’t compare Mike Savage to Sean Hanniti and Bill O’reilly. Bill O’reilly is fair and balanced, he supports civil unions, he supports gay adoption, he supports gays, what he does not support is political correctness and other BS. You sound ignorant when you attack Bill O’reilly. Do you even watch the Factor or do you just go to Fox hating websites and get your information from there? The only real hater is Mike Savage. However, if the price of free speech is isolated acts of violence, I’m willing to pay that price. Better that than the nazi-like european censorship of ideas.
“For the record, I had major surgery on both legs 10 weeks ago”
—Sorry to hear that, I hope you get better.
“I’m still in terrible pain and sometimes I’m not as coherent as I’d like to be.”
—I did not notice that, but I did notice a lot of anger. You get riled up easily.
“I’m not in the mood for being attacked over something I didn’t do and didn’t support and haven’t had much opportunity to repudiate.”
—I was attacking the gay activists in general more than you in particular. And no matter what NDT and I say, we’re mostly attacking ideas. That’s what progressives don’t get, they can’t stand someone questioning their principles because they think it’s an attack on them.
You ever watch MSNBC? All they have is liberals debating liberals. Watch Fox, you’ll see conservatives debating liberals, moderates debating radicals, religious people debating atheists, etc.
You need to see the gay community the rest of America sees it. The good, the bad and the ugly.
posted by Rob on
Vicious old lady? Do you have any idea how cowardly we look for attacking that frail thing?
Yes Booby, vicious as a demon. That frail old lady with the ridiculous styrofoam cross, Phyllis Burgess, is a professional agitator even known by the Palm Springs police. She pushed her way from the back to the front of the protest and knocked down a disabled protestor in the process. If there’s a hell, it would be that lady out of the entire crowd that would end up there, period. So shut the fuck up before you start screeching senseless like NDT.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
OK NDT, you really like playing this game?
What are you doing?
That’s easy, Regan; making it clear that you a) obfuscated about what gays were doing at the protests and b) use gays and lesbians as an excuse to act on your other prejudices.
For example, given your health issues, if you could haul yourself to this meeting to scream and protest at Marj, you certainly could have hauled yourself out into the parking lot to scream and protest at the gays and lesbians who were calling for her ouster and were trying to “shame” everyone who went into the restaurant, both of which you claim to oppose — and you certainly could have gone to protest black-owned and Muslim-owned businesses and churches whose employees gave far more than Marj did.
But you didn’t. Why?
I think the answer is best shown by the actual facts of the incident in Richmond.
The first suspect, who appeared to be the leader of the group, was described as a Hispanic man in his 30s. He was about 5 feet 6 inches tall, weighed 180 pounds and had black hair, brown eyes and a mustache.
The second suspect was a black man in his early 20s. He was about 5 feet 10 inches tall, weighed about 170 pounds and had black hair and brown eyes. He goes by the nickname “Blu.”
The third suspect was described as a Hispanic man about 18 to 20 years old. He goes by the nickname “Pato.”
The fourth suspect was described only as a Hispanic man about 18 to 20 years old.
And of course, off the gay community goes blaming white people, evangelical Christians, and Mormons for the problem.
What these continue to make clear is that the gay community is not interested in the problem itself; it’s only interested in exploiting it to bash others regardless of whether or not they were involved. You don’t care about the shooting at the UUC in Knoxville; you only care about using the incident to bash media personalities you don’t like.
Furthermore, the gay community does not give a rat’s rear about marriage bans or donating money to politicians who support marriage bans, inasmuch as they themselves have done both time and again.
As for solutions, mine are simple:
1) Disassociate being gay from being anti-white, anti-religious, and anti-conservative
2) Publicly expose the gay people who engage in hypocritical behavior like demanding people be fired and screaming “Shame on you!” at business patrons and church members (but never in front of businesses or churches where the members tend to lean Democrat)
3) Publicly expose the gay people who fully support and endorse marriage bans when Democrat Party members push them
4) Find people like yourself, who support and endorse the people in 2) and 3) and who do so because they need gays as a smokescreen for the prejudices they have outlined in 1), something else to do.
The gay community has been hijacked and perverted by people who need us as foot soldiers for their acting out on their own prejudices. No more. We don’t need that kind of “help” or “ally”.
posted by Bobby on
Reagan, I forgot to mention something.
The men who raped that lesbian where common criminals. I doubt that common criminals listen to Dan Savage on the radio. I doubt they care about morality, decency or gay extremism.
Men like that are animals. They rape, steal, kill, etc, because they can.
Now you see why we must support the death penalty and harsh prison sentences?
posted by ReganDuCasse on
NDT: How many times do I have to tell you I didn’t yell at anyone and didn’t condone or support anyone who did?
I can only be so many places and I have gone directly to black leaders in the area who supported Prop. 8 and guess what?
Like Marj, they’ve pretty much hid away from any type of opportunity for a civil conversation.
If someone isn’t there and doesnt want to talk to you, not much can be done about it.
But the two that did, only did so one on one with ME.
Bill O’Reilly knows me well. And I was an in studio debate with him specifically on gay marriage here in Los Angeles on KABC.
He does NOT support civil unions (because he doesn’t support marriage lite or any alternatives that aren’t marriage), he does not support gay adoption except as absolute last resort. And he doesn’t feel there are any last resorts that require gay adoption.
There are things he will say off air or to stir up things on air.
I’m quite clear about HIM, thank you.
Now that you’ve pointed out all the things you hate that gay people do that you consider worthless activity.
What you failed to address is what happened WELL before any protests.
There aren’t a lot of choices in political candidates in any given pack of them.
As for the rape upstate: the criminal on the ground don’t have to be fueled by direct contact with the higher up homophobes. But they are WELL school in the worthlessness of gay lives. They act out against gays and lesbians because for the most part, those in power COUNT on the disaffected, the outsiders to do the dirty work like this.
And yes, those higher up on the food chain ARE responsible for what happens at the street level. They don’t restrain themselves when comparing gay people to all things inhuman and abusive.
When I spoke to a black bishop after Nov. 4th, clearly he’d drunk the Kool-Aid of anti gay propaganda. He was repeating the very things so oft passed as truth, to rationalize discimination.
But there is a lot of confusion out there, and you know it NDT because the opportunity to get the truth out and be conducted to forums where education is vital, aren’t available.
There is a lot of shut out. Preachers or politicians do a lot of posing, but when the door is closed, betray all over again.
So who do we trust?
What do we do about it?
I don’t support or endorse screaming or yelling, NDT.
Don’t say I do ever again.
I have my own way of going about things and have made suggestions to who needs to know it regarding the next strategy.
And Bobby, I doubt those street thugs listened to DAN SAVAGE, the very sage gay man who writes really good columns.
But I’m sure you meant MIKE Savage, and it’s hard to say what thugs like that listen to other than inflammatory rap that denegrates women, gay men and Jews.
And I do support harsh prison sentences and the death penalty.
I am at once amused AND offended when someone expresses indignance at the prison population being just over 2 million.
If these ignorant people knew what was running around out there, the prison population SHOULD be more like 6 million.
I have years experience with LAPD as a crime scene photographer. I know of what I speak.
Can we bad this for a while? I’m really in pain and so exhausted.
I told you, I tried to talk to Marj and give her some insight and perhaps some understanding towards another purpose.
But she’s not having it, but she’s hairshirting all over the media as IF in the initial stages, she were facing a firing squad. No one was upset or yelling BEFORE.
It’s because she’s saying something to the media and getting it VERY wrong. That’s when folks got REALLY angry at her.
posted by ReganDuCasse on
I meant to say BAG this. I can’t be here for a while. But I wanted to acknowledge that I got your message. I am working with a whole lot of folks on getting on the right track.
But thanks guys.
posted by ReganDuCasse on
I just had a thought. I agree that the sanctuary city policy of SF and LA are the absolute worst that can be implemented anywhere.
And I whole heartedly agree that people should be well trained in self defense of some kind.
But just as I said that gay people were NEVER appreciated for being relatively patient, regardless of who in their number is viciously violated, or who is because of being mistaken for gay.
It’s already been exaggerated here that the protest rallies were akin to riots.
And therein, lies a conundrum. Gay people are already stigmatized as a threat to society.
Were gay people known to be armed, and traveling in numbers greater than one, how do you think that would be played out in the greater arena?
The Pink Panthers?
The next thing you know, FBI will be just as intrusive as the police were busting gay bars.
Think about it guys. Gay people have SO little peace as it is.
If there were any suspicion of ganging up and having exclusive clubs, you think someone wouldn’t spy?
Gay/straight alliances in high school aren’t allowed across the board without suspicion.
Being armed with a MARRIAGE LICENSE has scared people shitless.
Armed with a gun and attitude?
Nice try though…
posted by Bobby on
“And therein, lies a conundrum. Gay people are already stigmatized as a threat to society.
Were gay people known to be armed, and traveling in numbers greater than one, how do you think that would be played out in the greater arena?
The Pink Panthers?
The next thing you know, FBI will be just as intrusive as the police were busting gay bars.”
—I’m fully supportive of the Black Panthers, it’s too bad their movement died down. If they were as strong as in the 1970s, maybe there would be no gang problems in the black community.
Historically, every minority group has at one time been denied of their rights to bear arms. During slavery, a master was not allowed to send a slave to go hunting with a gun. The south was terrified of slave rebellions, so they banned slaves and free blacks from firearm ownership. In New York, they where terrified of the Irish, so they where the first people to suffer handgun bans in the 1800s. The turks did the same with Armenians, the nazis with jews, Castro’s government did it with civilians.
Which 911 call would you rather make?
1. “Heeeeelp! Someone’s trying to kill me!”
2. “Hello, I just shot somebody, can you send an ambulance…”
I once met a major anti-gay activist from the christian coalition. I asked him if he would ever try to deny gays of their right to bear arms. He said no. Isn’t that amazing? We can’t get married, can’t serve in the military, can’t adopt in some states, can’t work in some private schools and can’t hold hands in public without facing attack. But we CAN bear guns.
I say we start bearing guns. I’m telling you, conservatives treat us different when we’re armed. Even in freerepublic, a cesspool of homophobia and anti-gay condemnation, people don’t make fun of us whenever there’s a gay story involving self-defense with guns. And don’t take me wrong, I don’t advocate vigilantism, I advocate self-defense.
Think about it, did gun control protect that lesbian who got raped or those ecuadorian brothers that got beat up? The only people protected by gun control are criminals.
posted by Jim on
“Just remember, John, what goes around comes around. Heterosexuals outnumber us, they are vastly armed, they are getting sick of us, they are getting angrier, I hate to be a prophet of doom, but when that anger explodes, I don’t want to be near a gay bar or gay getto.”
Ooooh! Argumentum ad baculum! We should be afraid of them. We, the ones who are everywhere and are trained from the earliest age to be impossible to identify, should be afraid of them and their violence? They are setting themsleves up to be afraid to gather at thier “churches’ and to concentrate thier children in schools, and …. Because two can play that game, and it ends badly for the more obvious target.
Because the truth is that straight people are not monolithic, as evidenced by your debate with Regan. In fact a lot of straight people have their own grievances with these sects of haters and losers.
“Just don’t complain when the christian start taking revenge”
Christians taking revenge. That would be real unchristian of them, but not at all out of charcter for a bunch of Torah-quoting pseudo-Christan Pharisees.
posted by Bobby on
Jim, have you ever studied chaos theory? How one tiny action can cause a whole bunch of reactions? For example, let’s say some gays decided to shoot Fred Phelps the next time he’s protesting. The result of that would be that Fred Phelps would become a hero, another leader would take his place and his movement grows.
So all I’m saying is that gays have to think really hard about the repercussions of whatever they do.
The Michael Moore’s and Bill Maher’s of the world have only managed to alienate millions of people while preching only to the converted. When gay activists act like those assholes, they do the cause more harm than good.
So far we’ve been lucky that the crazies hate abortion clinics more than they hate gay bars. However, if we push too hard, if the radicals among us engage in tactics that make the crazies think they’re being persecuted. If John Doe loses his job because he told a gay joke during lunch. Then they will feel persecuted and they will feel justified to attack.
You have no idea what fears people have about ENDA. They think with ENDA churches will be forced to hire gays. In Massachussetts, a catholic adoption group had to get out of the adoption business because the state was going to force them to give gay couples children. This is the kind of crap that creates unnecesary animosity. Think about it.
posted by Pat on
The Michael Moore’s and Bill Maher’s of the world have only managed to alienate millions of people while preching only to the converted. When gay activists act like those assholes, they do the cause more harm than good.
Bobby, I’m not a fan of Michael Moore. I don’t mind Bill Maher as much, although he certainly overdoes it sometimes. I don’t think they are any more assh*lish than Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity. Do you believe they cause more harm than good as well?
posted by Bobby on
Hey Pat, those conservative examples don’t really apply, people like Rush, Sean and Ann Coulter appeal to conservatives, independents, and rare liberals with an open mind.
A better example would be Fred Phelps. Phelps antics have ostracized him from even the most evangelical christian organizations.
I do mind Bill Maher, I don’t know what happened to him. He used to be a nice libertarian that would piss off democrats and republicans. But then one day, he decided he doesn’t like guns anymore, he doesn’t like republicans, he compares religion to a mental disease, he doesn’t like prescription medicines, and his show has become totally biased and leftwing.
posted by Pat on
Bobby, yeah, Bill Maher is pretty left wing. But I find him about the same category as Limbaugh, Hannity, and Coulter for the right wing. Guess our perspectives differ here. Phelps is way out there, and I don’t think I could put him on any wing. I don’t think Moore is on the level of Phelps either.
I didn’t know that Maher didn’t like prescription meds. I’m not crazy about them either, but I take a couple everyday.
posted by Adam on
Bobby made an important point that nobody picked up on so I’d like to highlight it. He wrote, “Still, 70%+ of this country supports gays in the military, and I think that’s the issue that will help them come around on gay marriage. First they see us as soldiers, then as heroes, then as their equals.”
I think Bobby is correct to think when gays can serve openly in the military a shift in culture will ensue. Indeed, the historian Deborah Moore demonstrates in *GI Jews* (Harvard, 2004) that service in the military during WWII was a major factor in the full acceptance of Jews in the U.S.
Claims for rights are often couched in terms citizenship. (Or to put it the other way ’round, citizenship, in a sociological sense, is defined in part by the making of rights-claims.)[1] Groups seeking rights often argue that they have the proper attributes of citizenship and therefore, as citizens, they are owed the sought-after rights. A common refrain in these types of arguments is the implied reciprocity inherent in military service. Military service is a sacrifice (payment) for which those who served are due their rights as citizens. For example, silk weavers in early nineteenth-century England faced the collapse of their long-standing cottage industry system of production when Parliament removed the protective regulations which had formed the scaffolding of the system (i.e. Parliament de-regulated silk weaving). In arguing for the re-institution of the protections the weavers used their sacrifices as defenders of the empire to demonstrate an entitlement to protection: “our trade was shielded by a generous Parliament, and thereby inspired with true loyalty. We left our looms in defense of our much beloved King and country, and are always ready to do so again . . . .”[2] Similarly, in 1843 the free blacks of Michigan argued they were owed the right to vote in Michigan due to their past service as soldiers. ?During the Revolution the white and black soldiers fought and messed together without hesitation.? ?The records . . . clearly prove that the blacks rushed forth to the conflict, and poured out their blood with as much bravery as their white fellow soldiers . . . .? ?In the War of 1812, our people were called upon [and] distinguished themselves as valiant soldiers, fighting in defense of their country’s honor.? Black soldiers paid the ?expense of the mangled bodies and bleeding veins of our disfranchised people. The blood of our fathers is mingled with the soil of every battle field: and their bones have enriched the most productive lands. . . .? The black Michiganders constructed their arguments as claims for rights due them as loyal citizens, who answered the call to battle, and spent their blood in defense of the nation and the state. They argued they had paid their side of the citizenship bargain in blood many times over. Reciprocity and sacrifice demanded that they receive their due: the vote.[3]
I think liberals tend to overlook the citizenship defining power of military service. And far leftists, I think, tend to view the military as a priori oppressive and illegitimate. I think this is a blind spot in modern leftist thought. The anthropologist David Graeber wrote an interesting essay that touches on this liberal blind spot: “Army of Altruists: On the Alienated Right to do Good,” Harper’s, January 2007, http://www.harpers.org/archive/2007/01/0081344.
Notes
[1] For an explanation of citizenship as the making of rights claims see Somers, Margaret R. ?Citizenship and the Place of the Public Sphere: Law, Community, and Political Culture in the Transition to Democracy.? American Sociological Review 58 (1993): 587-620.
[2] The quote is from page 40 of Steinberg, Marc W. ?”The Great End of All Government.”: Working People’s Construction of Citizenship Claims in Early Nineteenth-Century England and the Matter of Class.? In Citizenship, Identity and Social History, edited by Charles Tilly, 19-50. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1996.
[3] The quotes are from ?State Convention of the Colored Citizens of the State of Michigan, Held in the City of Detroit on the 26th and 27th Days of October, 1843, for the Purpose of Considering Their Moral and Poltical Condition as Citizens of the State.? In A Pioneer Anthology: The Making of Michigan, 1820-1860, edited by Justin Kestenbaum, 301-09. Detroit: Wayne State University Press, 1990.
posted by Gary on
This gay guy and all of his friends had a great dinner at El Coyote recently and we will CONTINUE to eat there REGARDLESS of what the WeHo nutjobs think. It is time that this crowd of morons realizes that they do NOT speak for all gay people. Every time I hear gay community leaders screeching for a boycott, I make it a point of patronizing those businesses. Proudly gay and proudly out! If these so called leaders truly cared about the gay community they would call a boycott of all the drug laden White Party’s, Blue Ball’s. etc. I would much rather see my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters alive and well than worrying about boycotting some restaurant. But alas, drug addiction and abuse is not an issue with gay leaders. They would rather see out community kill it’s self.