When strangers stare at me across a bar, I like to imagine it's because they find me attractive. More often than not, however, it's because they recognize me from the local gay paper.
"You're John Corvino, aren't you? The Gay Moralist?"
It happened just last weekend as I was vacationing in Saugatuck, a gay-friendly resort town on Lake Michigan. I was at tea dance, and I had drunk quite a bit of tea-of the Long Island iced variety. I tend to become flirtatious when inebriated, and at the time the stranger approached, I had my arms around two very handsome fellow partygoers.
The stranger leaned in. "So you're the Gay Moralist?" He said it in an almost accusatory tone.
"Yes-that's me."
"Looks more like the Gay IMmoralist to me," he sneered, before turning and abruptly walking away.
Maybe he was jealous, I told myself. Or maybe he assumed I was cheating on my husband, who in fact was standing just a few feet away. Perhaps he just disapproved of my inebriation (though judging from his breath, he had quite a few drinks himself). In any case, his comment stuck with me. Was I setting a bad example? And why should I care?
I title my column "The Gay Moralist" because I'm an ethics professor who writes about moral subjects, not because I hold myself up as a moral exemplar. Having said that, I don't think there's anything wrong with having a good time, even one that includes drinking and flirtation. Such things-in moderation-can contribute to life's joy, and there's moral value in joy.
To say that is not to endorse hedonism. Hedonism is the view that pleasure is the ONLY moral value. I'm a pluralist about value, and I believe that there are times when pleasure (especially transitory pleasure) must be sacrificed for greater goods.
Nor is it to embrace relativism, the view that moral truth is whatever we believe it to be. Human beings can, and do, get ethics wrong sometimes, as any honest look at history (including one's personal history) should make clear.
But one way to get ethics wrong is to insist that pleasure is never a moral value, or worse yet, that it's a moral evil. Pity those cultures who think that, for example, dancing is immoral.
There are philosophical traditions which teach-foolishly-that pleasure never constitutes a reason for action. They then get themselves in a twist over seemingly easy questions such as whether chewing gum is permissible apart from its teeth-cleaning tendencies. Relax, guys. Have a freakin' cookie.
Certainly there are pleasures-such as drinking and flirting-that can easily get out of hand. Maybe that's why we tend to think of them as "naughty," even when indulged in moderation. Or perhaps we've inherited the puritanism of our forebears. In any case, I freely admit that I've had moments of excess, amply earning my other, unofficial nickname, "The Naughty Professor." (Given human nature, that column might attract even more readers than "The Gay Moralist.") As Aristotle said, "Moderation in all things-even moderation itself."
Aristotle understood that while moderation is crucial, it is important to guard against slipping from a reasonable caution into an unhealthy-and morally undesirable-puritanism. It is especially important for gays to do so, since so many in the world would deny us pleasure-including some important pleasures related to human intimacy.
There are those who caricature gays as being obsessed with pleasure. No doubt some are. Perhaps they're overreacting to being denied certain pleasures for too long, or perhaps, having been rejected by "normal" society, they lack appropriate social restraints. Everyone needs a moral community, for both its positive and negative injunctions.
But the proper alternative to excessive indulgence is not puritanism; it's moderation. Our opponents believe that there is never an appropriate context for homoerotic pleasure, so they present us with dilemma: you can either embrace gayness or embrace morality, but not both. It's a false dilemma, and we ought to denounce it. Put another way, we can reject their bad moralizing without rejecting moralizing altogether.
The fact is that we are all moralists, since we all must decide what to endorse, what to tolerate, and what to forbid. As "The Gay Moralist," I just happen to write about such things.
30 Comments for “The Gay (Im)moralist?”
posted by Bobby on
Gays can be cruel, Corvino, but at least they’re not women. When it comes to treating straight men like shit, women are #1. Thank God we’re not straight.
Still Corvino, I don’t know why you bother going to gay bars. You already have a boyfriend (I suppose), you already have friends, why go to a place where you’re not wanted?
posted by tavdy on
“You already have a boyfriend (I suppose), you already have friends, why go to a place where you’re not wanted?”
Usually when I meet up with my gay mates it’s at the Duke of Wellington in Soho. Most of the guys are already partnered – and that’s never a reason for them to feel out of place. If my friends didn’t go to those bars, I wouldn’t go myself – simple as. And I do like heading down the Welly every so often!
Would I be right in thinking that you assume gay bars exist just to serve as hunting grounds for packs of horny gay men? Because that doesn’t have to be (and shouldn’t always be) the case.
posted by Pepe Johnson on
tavdy has a good point. For me I think it depends on the bar/club/restaurant. Different establishments have different clienteles. Some are for guys looking to “hook up” for the night, and others are simply great places to go and hang out with friends.
posted by Bobby on
Well tavdy, I’ve never had a boyfriend, so gay bars were always hunting grounds for me. I also don’t think you can make any friends places so loud where you can barely hear yourself think, much less speak.
I suppose some gays do make friends outside the bars and then go to gay bars with them. But Corvino surprises me, he is an educated man, an excellent writer, a thinker, why the hell would he bother going to such distastesfull places?
To me is like a conservative guy going to a circuit party, or Barbara Bush going to a women’s festival or Michael Moore going to a gun show. Why go to places where you are clearly not wanted?
And let’s face it, life is too short. If I read a book for 2 hours, I gain knowledge. If I spend 3 or 4 hours in a gay bar, what do I gain?
posted by Audrey B on
Bobby, I think you have a blog, could you link to it please? Also, you said you never had a boyfriend, do you at least have friends?
posted by tavdy on
“I’ve never had a boyfriend, so gay bars were always hunting grounds for me…
…But Corvino surprises me, he is an educated man, an excellent writer, a thinker, why the hell would he bother going to such distastesfull places?” – Bobby
I notice you use the past tense – gay bars were always hunting grounds – so would I be right in assuming you’ve not been to gay bars recently?
At one time I might have said the same is you, but the gay bars I know have changed massively over the last decade. None of the gay bars & clubs I’ve been to in the last few years have been the “meat markets” of old. The bar scene has been getting progressively less predatory over the last 10 years, mainly because of Gaydar. Why go to a bar for sex when it’s quicker, easier & cheaper to find one online? So the bars have changed focus, and the scene is now far less about sex than spending time with friends.
And like Corvino, I love to flirt with my friends.
“If I spend 3 or 4 hours in a gay bar, what do I gain?” – Bobby
In my case, I usually gain the pleasure of spending time with some interesting, fun people. The gay scene can – and should – be more than just randomised sodomy.
posted by Pepe Johnson on
For every establishment I think of as a “meat market,” I can also think of another that is just a nice place to hang out.
I think something else we should point out is that regardless of the motives of some individuals – those looking to hook up for the night – you have to make choices as to how you will behave. In other words, just because they are looking for a hook up, doesn’t mean you have to do the same thing. As more and more people make positive choices, such as avoiding random hook ups or at practicing safe sex, the entire community will move in a positive direction.
posted by Bobby on
Hey Audrey, I haven’t updated my blog in months. Here’s the link just in case. http://freedomphobia.blogspot.com/
Thanks for asking. I do have a few friends, they’re usually not gay except for one.
Hey TADY
“I notice you use the past tense – gay bars were always hunting grounds – so would I be right in assuming you’ve not been to gay bars recently?”
—You’re right to assume that. In the past (5 years ago) I went to gay bars in Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Minneapolis, Chicago, Dallas and Detroit. Frankly, I don’t know how you make friends in those places. Whenever you talk to a man in a gay bar, you’re basically hitting on him. I don’t think sex and friendship mix well. Besides, guys there aren’t interested in your brains, they’re interested in your body. I could make friends with gays I don’t find attractive, but even they are all high and mighty. Similar to those ugly women that nobody hits on, and when a guy finally hits on them, they’re all bitchy.
I suppose the online world has made gay bars less of a hunting ground that they were in the past. Still, they remain pretty intimidating places.
“In my case, I usually gain the pleasure of spending time with some interesting, fun people.”
—I’m glad you know people like that. And I do admit the drag shows were fun. But I still see gay bars as places of competition. Sometimes they are places of torture, specially the ones with TV’s running porn. What a great way to let you know that you’re not getting laid, nobody’s paying any attention to you, but two or three hotties are getting laid right in front of you.
And then when you finally pick up a guy at a gay bar and he sleeps with you, he’ll never see you again, why should he? He already got what he wanted, you’re no longer special or desirable, so he’ll simply find someone else to hunt.
Worse is when you leave home alone, feeling like crap because you didn’t meet anyone, didn’t get any phone numbers (and if you did, they don’t answer the phone), had a horrible time, spent $20 on drinks you didn’t really need.
That’s why I say, who needs gay bars? Read a book, watch porn, watch TV, put up an LTR classified, anything is better than the public humiliation of talking to men that don’t like you.
posted by Audrey B on
Bobby, you seem so unhappy, why is that?
posted by photoguyJonSF on
Wow. Bobby, It seems to me, from the brief reading, that you see the gay would in only one light. There are many many different factions of the gay world. Just as there are in the Straight world. I am young and living in San Francisco. I have had 3 boyfriends in my 10 years of being out of the closet. 2 I met at a bar 1 I met through friends. I have to say that I go to bars because it is a place where my friends and I can have fun, never be concerned about how gay you are acting,and you can feel relaxed. Yes it is true that there are guys out there only looking for the one night stand. However, there are PLENTY of people who are just out to dance, meet new people and have new experiences.(not necessarily sexual) A lot of it has to do with what type of bars you are going to. I would say try to go out with a positive attitude, not looking for a man, just enjoy the experience. Try bars that are not tourist hot spots, try a local neighborhood bar. I found that worked for me. Give a try… It is so much easier going through life when you see more smiles than frowns… ( God I sound like Guy smiley) but He has a point.
JG
posted by tavdy on
Bobby,
You’re not the only gay man who feels like you do and, to use an old economists’ phrase, “demand creates its own supply” – if there are gay men who want more than just a quick shag (and there are thousands if not millions of us) then there will be methods available for them to meet each other that don’t require anonymous sex. Have you tried finding any gay social groups in your area? That’s how I’ve met a lot of my gay friends – and you’ll find that you’re less likely to be seen as prey if you’re in a bar with friends. You’ll also find it easier to develop the kind of relationship that turns into something long-term.
One other thing – $20? Damn, your bars are cheap! I’ve paid more than that for a Scotch in the past. Most times I’ll spend at least $60 when I’m in a bar or pub – and I’m not a heavy drinker.
posted by Pepe Johnson on
I’ve been to bars/clubs in Dallas, Houston, Little Rock, Oklahoma City, Washington, DC, New Orleans, San Antonio and probably a few others over the past 6 or 7 years. One thing I noticed is that each city, as well as each club has a vibe of its own. Dallas (where I live actually) is seen as a lot more pretentious than other places I have visited. To some extent I agree with that. So one shouldn’t go to every gay club in every city expecting the same thing.
posted by Pat on
Bobby, my partner and I sometimes like to go to gay bars just to get some drinks, to shoot pool, or whatever, in an atmosphere where you can really be out. We’re not into non-stop PDAs by any means, but it’s nice to be somewhere once in a while where I can kiss my partner and not have everyone shudder. But most of the things you say about bars are unfortunately things I experienced. Even when others know you’re partnered, the assumption is that since you’re at a gay bar, that you’re looking anyway.
If you are going to bar with the intention of finding someone to date/have a relationship, then you have to decide that you are not going for a hookup under the pretense, “well, I couldn’t find anyone I’m interested enough to date, so I might as well hookup,” since that is the same thing as going with the intention of only hooking up. Make it a point that if you do find someone interesting to exchange phone numbers and/or decide to meet up again in a week. Again, do not go home with this person, because this is also equivalent of going to the bar with the intention of only hooking up, as you’ve discovered.
So, of course, it’s possible that this leads to nowhere. But at least you didn’t waste any more time with this person.
And while at the bar (preferably not a club and during a quieter time), go in with an attitude that you will enjoy the time no matter what happens. Watch something on the tube (preferably not porn), talk to the bartender, or what not, so as not to give an impression of desperation. And photoguy is right about smiling. Confidence and smiles go a long way.
Also, tavdy is right about social clubs. The thing is you have to be more patient. You’ll be pegged quickly if you start relationship hunting right away. But if you put your eggs in different baskets, your chances of finding someone increase.
posted by Richard on
Why is a gay — or striaght — ‘moralist’ engaging in behavior that would seem to suggest a willingess to stray from his or her martial vows?
Do you cheat on your husband?
posted by Craig2 on
Well, I’m a gay teetotaller. I don’t do alcohol or drugs*, but I go with my partner to the local gay pub so we can socialise with others; added to which there’s an attached community centre.
It’s always a tricky job balancing responsible use of one’s freedom and the exercise of personal responsibility. Incidentally, is the number of gay bars dropping in the US? It is in New Zealand. Makes me wonder if gay cafes aren’t the trend of the intermediate future.
Craig2
Wellington, NZ
*Or nicotine. My personal vice is chocolate.
posted by Bobby on
I think all of you have had mostly good experiences in gay bars. Maybe it’s the positive attitude, maybe it’s the lack of expectations, maybe it’s good luck, I don’t know.
I’m glad TADY admits that I’m not alone in my views.
I do think that if you’re not a bar person, the worst place to meet a guy like you is at a bar. That’s like trying to meet a hybrid driver at an SUV convention.
“Bobby, you seem so unhappy, why is that?”
—Just a little bitter, that’s all. There’s nothing wrong with being a little negative, I see it as realistic. Gay movies portray gay bars as sanctuaries, havens where everyone is your friend. That’s not reality.
posted by Pepe Johnson on
Richard,
Why do you assume Mr. Corvino’s behavior was indicative of “straying” from his vows?
In the article, he states that his partner was standing just a few feet away, so the partner wasn’t too awful bothered by it. And all Mr. Corvino confesses to in the article is being flirtatious and having his arms around the shoulders of two other men.
I would be in a world of trouble if that’s all it takes to “stray” from my vows. I have a number of straight male friends who are more physically affectionate than I am. They hug me when they see me and we will often put our arms around one another. We also laugh and tell jokes. Since I speak Spanish, and a number of my friends also speak Spanish, we may converse or tell jokes in Spanish – to include making fun of each other. To someone who can’t speak the language, it could appear as something very different from what it actually is intended to be. Don’t be so quick to assume the worst. In fact, isn’t that the point of the article?
posted by Audrey B on
Gay movies portray gay bars as sanctuaries, havens where everyone is your friend. That’s not reality.Movies portray 15th century Brits as having clean, white, and non-missing teeth. What’s your point?
posted by Audrey B on
Closing tag.
posted by Richard on
If he is getting drunk at a bar and flirting with another man, that would seem to be a sign of something.
If a straight man got drunk at a bar and started putting the moves on a woman, who was not his wife….
The fact that his husband was nearby does not mean that he was happy or unhapy about it. What his husband felt was, oddly, left out of the picture entirely.
I am not so sure what the point of the article was, aside from any financial gain. It sounds like the author wants to feel smug about being a ‘moralist’ without be held responsible for his own ideas or without having to actually follow them himself.
Kant would not be pleased.
posted by Richards on
Hollywood has never really done justice when it comes to reality. For better or for the worse.
A lot of it can come down to, sadly, personal looks and socioeconomic class.
If you look hot and wear trendy clothes then the bar will probably be a better experience for you.
posted by Bobby on
“If you look hot and wear trendy clothes then the bar will probably be a better experience for you.”
—I think looking hot is enough. If you look hot, you can come to a bar dressed like Hitler, and people will pay you a compliment. I’m not hot enough, so I’m gonna stay out of bars until I reach my goal. Thank you for your honesty, while it may be politically correct to say “oh, you just need a positive attitude,” the truth is that you do need to be hot.
And at 33, I don’t have much time left. Pretty soon I’ll be 40, or even 50. And what happens then? Even if I was 5% body fat by the time I’m 50, how that does guarantee me that I’ll have a partner? Because let’s face it, there’s no pressure for us to marry. Straight women have their biological clocks ticking, so they have to trap a man before it’s too late. Lesbians care about feelings, so a fat lesbian can always find another fat lesbian, or a skinny lesbian, just like Rosie O’donnel found hers.
Gay men care about looks. That’s why the better you look, the more marketshare you enjoy. But if you look bad, then you have to compete with a lot of people that look bad for a few people that look good. And in that environment, you have to have your one night stands, because sometimes that’s the only intimacy you’ll ever get.
posted by Pat on
Bobby, you’re still pretty young. I was 38 before I had my first boyfriend. And he picked me up at a gay bar. I was not then or now a candidate for GQ magazine. The difference between then and when I was in my 20s and early 30s was confidence and attitude.
Good looks are great, but it also comes with its downsides. Sure, you’d have your choice of dozens of people at the bar you could go home with, if that’s all you’re looking for. But if you’re looking for a relationship, you may have more clunkers before you find someone who likes you for more than your looks. Attraction is great, but you need something more after a few dates and a few months.
posted by Pat on
I am not so sure what the point of the article was, aside from any financial gain. It sounds like the author wants to feel smug about being a ‘moralist’ without be held responsible for his own ideas or without having to actually follow them himself.
Richard, I guess I had a different take from the article than you. I didn’t see John as smug and not being held responsible for his own morals. He put the article out there and allowed for responses.
And as John noted, we are all moralists in that we all decide on what actions to endorse, accept, tolerate, and forbid.
My problem occurs when 1) a person decides that only behaviors he engages in is moral, and that others are immoral if they engage in behavior that he doesn’t do 2) a person pontificates about others immorality when, in fact, the person also engages in said behavior, even when he claims otherwise.
In the first case, the person draws a fine line as to what’s right or wrong based on what they do, what their experiences were, etc. Some proudly state that since they don’t do it, everyone should follow their lead.
In the second case, the person may not realize that he is a hypocrite. Even when he is told that they engage(d) in behavior that they deem wrong, they give an excuse that wouldn’t pass any smell test, paint themselves in a corner, while continue to pontificate how righteous he is and how bad and wrong others are. Or you’ll get how his case is “different,” even if it’s explained how it’s not different or that it may be different for others as well.
So these two examples are one extreme. The other extreme is everything goes. Neither serve any of us well. So careful thought must be taken as well as real self-scrutinization, before one starts to pontificate to others.
posted by cesquaq on
whoa! this article isn’t even about bars: single vs. coupled gay places. from this thread am i to assume that as a lesbian i’m not to go into gay bars and as a multi culti am i to stay out of black or white bars and since i’m coupled am i to opt for restaraunts over bars at all? you all should try brushing up on your contextual reading skills and some comprehension and while you’re at it throw in a little retention.
posted by Pat on
Speaking for myself, cesquaq, I understood what the point of the article was. Because other side topics developed should not be construed that I didn’t understand the context or need other reading skills or retention.
And you can assume the exact opposite what people said in their posts if you want. That’s your choice.
posted by John Chicago on
Hope all you nutso libertarian gays are happy with the new Libertarian candidate, Bob Barr. You know, the freak who was more upset by the idea of gays having basic rights than any one else was in Congress. Given half a chance we’d be marrying our grandmother or pet iguana according to Bob. Then there was his concern about ridding the military of Wiccans. Remember? He was even too crazy for his rural Georgian constituents who kicked him out by an incredible 30% margin – and he was the incumbent. God, what incredible hypocrites you libertarians are!
posted by Pepe Johnson on
John Chicago,
Have you read anything Mr. Barr has said lately? Let’s see: last year he wrote and Op-Ed in the Wall Street Journal calling for the repeal of Don’t ask, Don’t tell. He has repeatedly stated in various forums that he would favor repealing the second section of the Defense of Marriage Act, and during the LP convention stated he would work to repeal DOMA. (period)
His arguments in favor of gay rights focus on privacy, which was also the focus of decision in the recent case of Witt v. US Air Force, as well as numerous previous civil rights cases.
I will concede that he may not be the ideal candidate for the LGBT community, but frankly, there will never be an ideal candidate for the LGBT community. Why? Because we are just as diverse – racially, ethnically, religiously, economically, philosophically – as every other community in this great nation.
As for Wiccans, I honestly don’t know. Has anyone approached him on this issue? I’m not Wiccan, so I 1.) was unaware, and 2.) did not place this issue at the top of my “List of Stuff to Ask Bob Barr.”
As for being hypocritical, of course their are libertarian hypocrites, and Democratic hypocrites, and Republican hypocrites, and Independent hypocrites. What’s the point?
posted by The Gay Species on
If an ethics professor, then don’t conflate ethics and morality. Morality is deontological, proscriptive, universal while ethics is teleological, prescriptive, and situational. To be moral is not to be ethical, anymore than Aristotle’s Ethics bear a family resemblance to biblical Laws, Kant’s Categorical Imperative, or Utilitarian Calculus. Ethics, from ethos, is a way of life, while morality is a duty to act to prevent harm. Ethics subsumes morality, but morality does not subsume ethics, as any axiologist knows. And how Benevolence (Altruism) enters the picture is itself distinct (see, Hume, Hutcheston, Smith).
posted by Richard on
Bob Barr has — recently — claimed to have changed his position on LGBT rights issues on the eve of winning the LP presidential nomination.
Almost overnight, a right-wing theocratic media whore became a born again libertarian.
Assming that we are to believe him.
Does he, like Ron Paul, believe that homosexuality should remain illegal?