Back in the old days, there were those who supported gay rights and those who opposed them-vocally. There was also a third group whose opposition was so deep that they objected even to discussing the issue. For them, to debate gay rights would be to dignify depravity, and depravity merits chilly silence, not invitations to dialogue.
In the last decade or so, a fourth group has appeared mirroring the third. This group's support for gay rights runs so deep that they object even to discussing the issue. For them, to debate gay rights would be to dignify bigotry, and bigotry merits chilly silence, not invitations to dialogue.
While the above sketch is somewhat simplistic, I think it captures an important shift in the gay-rights debate. Increasingly, one finds people on both sides who object not merely to their opponents' position but even to engaging that position. Why debate the obvious, they ask. Surely anyone who holds THAT position must be too stubborn, brainwashed or dumb to reason with.
The upshot is that supporters and opponents of gay rights are talking to each other less and less. This fact distresses me.
It distresses me for several reasons. First, it lulls gay-rights advocates into a complacency where we mistake others' silence for acquiescence. Then we are shocked-shocked!-when, for example, an Oklahoma state representative says that gays pose a greater threat than terrorism-and her constituents rally around her. Think Sally Kern will have a hard time getting re-elected? Think again.
It distresses me, too, because dialogue works. Not always, and not easily, but it makes a difference. Indeed, ironically enough, healthy dialogue about our issues helped move many people from the "supportive-but-open-to-discussion" camp to the "so-supportive-I-can't-believe-we're-discussing-this" camp.
It distresses me most of all because both of the "opposed" camps include families with gay kids. How do we help those kids? How do we let them know that it's okay to be gay, despite the hurtful messages that they're hearing from their parents?
True, it is easier than ever to reach such kids directly, through MTV, the internet, and the like. But some of those messages will be blocked or distorted by their parents. And even those that reach them untrammeled will be counterbalanced by painful opposition. I feel for these kids, and I want to help them. Helping them requires acknowledging their important relationships with people whose views I find deeply wrong.
There are those who find my emphasis on dialogue naïve. As someone who has spent sixteen years traveling the country speaking and debating about homosexuality and ethics, I'm well aware of dialogue's limitations.
Yet I'm also frequently reminded of its power. Recently Aquinas College, a Catholic school in Grand Rapids, Michigan, cancelled a lecture I was scheduled to give because of concerns about my opposition to Catholic teaching on homosexuality. Students angered by the cancellation arranged to have me speak off-campus. The event drew hundreds of audience members, including some who had been critical of my initial invitation. The next day I learned that one of those critics, after hearing my talk, had begun advocating bringing me to campus next year. Over time, such conversions can have a huge impact.
Then there are those who wonder whether the silence I'm lamenting really is a problem at all. My Aquinas cancellation suggests that it is: intentionally or not, the cancellation sent students the message that this topic is literally unspeakable. But the problem is by no means limited to one side. Last year I did a same-sex marriage debate (with Glenn Stanton of Focus on the Family) at another Catholic college. A week before the event, my host told me that a student was trying to organize a protest. "Because he doesn't want a gay-rights speaker on a Catholic campus?" I asked.
"No, because he doesn't want your opponent here," she answered. The student thought that opposition to same-sex marriage should not be dignified with a hearing. On a Catholic campus!
That student, like the rest of us, would do well to recall the words of John Stuart Mill. In his 1859 classic On Liberty Mill argued that those who silence opinions - even false ones - rob the world of great gifts:
"If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth; if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error."
The moral of the story? Let's keep talking.
63 Comments for “Keep Talking”
posted by Michigan-Matt on
A question: Isn’t this a piece written in the voice of John Corvino not Jonathan Rauch? To wit, "Recently Aquinas College, a Catholic school in Grand Rapids, Michigan, cancelled a lecture I was scheduled to give because of concerns about my opposition to Catholic teaching on homosexuality."
Editor: Yes, posting typo re: author now corrected. Sorry about that.
posted by Amicus on
Dialogue works.
———-
So do chainsaws.
The Right are the ones not interested in having a debate, being the status quo.
They lecture “liberals” that the courts are horrendous places to settle these matters, but then they yank the carpet out from under a discussion with big-hate SuperDoma amendments to the Constitution.
Indeed, they maintain the “nuclear option” in the debate almost all the time, threatening to punish gays if they ‘seek too much’, like ‘touching DOMA’.
So, yeah, I’d cut some slack for the guy who protests Stanton’s sly attempt at ‘reasonableness’, because he has finally realized that the debate over the debate is just as much the debate as is the debate.
Stanton’s material is so thin you know that his only purpose in debating Corvino is to go back to his faithful and tell them that he “regularly debates the opposition”, so as to give the false impression that his views are somehow that much more substantive …
posted by Clay on
John, your piece reminded me of a very old assertion on the subject of gay rights, one that I think it wise for all to recall from time to time:
?From silence to discussion, even without enlightenment, is progress, for enlightenment becomes inevitable through discussion, and impossible without it.?
Donald Webster Cory, “The Homosexual in America.” 1953
The absence of debate, argument, discussion, free inquiry will not work in our favor. Those who oppose our civil and human rights understand this better than we may realize, which is part of why they love the phony victim act they play. It’s a passive-aggressive way of shutting down debate.
posted by Craig2 on
Dialogue doesn’t work.
However, civil and rational debate does, as does painstaking strategic preparation and research of anti-gay groups arguments.
Ultimately, our objective should be to discourage the fundamentalist right from political participation and encourage them to return to a quietist faith. If they do so,
they will have the freedom of worship, religious and philosophical belief, conscience and assembly, as well as broad areas of religious practice that is the right of every citizen in a pluralist, democratic society.
Craig2
Wellington, NZ
posted by Jorge on
That still leaves the problem of what happens to their own gay children. Ideally the fundamentalist right would become extinct through conversion, but that’s a pipe dream. In the meantime everyone’s going to try their best to stick to their guns.
It’s a little easier for civility and national unity if we all pretended everything was fine, but that hurts gay rights. Treating our opponents like monsters hurts their gay children and prevents us from working together on things that have nothing to do with gay rights but that need to be done.
posted by Craig2 on
Unfortunately, ‘monstrous’ is an apt description of the likes of Paul Cameron, Latvia’s ghastly Watchmen on the Walls outfit and that odious Phelps clan. Even mainstream conservatives can’t stand the latter…
Added to which, sometimes conservative Christian homophobes do monstrous things- like NZ fundamentalist activist Graham Capill, who raped three little girls and is currently serving a prison sentence for that crime.
Craig2
Wellington, NZ
posted by Belly on
According to the investigation from biloves.com, The Netherlands, South Africa, United Kingdom, Canada, Spain are the gayest countries. Not sure if true.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Jon, I agree with you that dialogue is critical if we expect to make progress on gay civil rights.
But equally important for our side is the issue of WHO is presenting for our side of the dialogue… both with the groups adverse to gay civil rights progress as well as constituencies affecting and impacted by our advancement –like the military ranks & file on DADT, like voters on civil unions, like Congress on federal legislative remedies for the long list of concerns in seeking equal treatment for gay partners.
Frankly, for too long, the voice or face of the gay community on all those issues has been a radicalized, in-your-face, confrontational Left-leaning activist community. The very same community that’s sold our interests down the river time and again.
So it isn’t just dialogue. Or with whom. But it’s also who represents our best interests and presents a positive, constructive engagement for us on those issues.
It’s why I continue to be glad that the gay conservatives have found increasing acceptance within our community -albeit, after having their eyes scratched out by the status-quo Left types.
The truth of the matter is that when the black civil rights community started to ditch the Black Panthers approach and move toward moderated, engaging dialogue and advocacy in the MSM, the implementation of many civil rights issues -on the books but impotent in their enforcement- gained credibility with JoeAverageVoter and JoeAveragePolitician.
Dialogue, yes. With all who will engage in a civil discussion, yes. But we need a more engaging face/voice. Our community needs to muzzle the farLeft activists in order to secure progress from the very community of voters turned off by the antics of those activists.
posted by Charles Wilson on
It’s funny to watch gay wingnuts at play. Michigan-Matt, who pretends to be a “moderate” but is actually a self-loathing wingnut whackjob, posts at “Malcontent,” a gay fascist site that censors its comments page. If he loves those muzzles, I’m fine with whatever he does behind closed doors. Woof. Damn. But “dialogue” ought to start without censorship. It’s a tough issue for the right wing, ain’t it?
posted by Guillermo Pineda on
I think you are aiming too high on this issue right now.
After centuries of law making all over the world, we are still facing with a crisis defending Liberty and the Rights of Individuals. Why is it that we want to have Gay Rights in so little time? I mean, time goes back into centuries.
A much has being said already about gay rights & Rights. I agree, lets not stop talking based on objective reason as a higher mean.
posted by deLuca on
Charles, rather than continue to go off thread and act psychotic, it might be better for you to ponder that you’ve been barred from many sites for these types of attacks.
Yesterday, you were barred and banned from yet ANOTHER site for unseemly behavior.
When is enough for you? Another dozen sites?
Barred and banned from discussion groups at a variety of TRAVEL-based web sites.
Barred and banned from discussion groups at a variety of MEDICAL-based web sites.
Barred and banned from discussion groups at a variety of COMMUNITY HELP-based web sites.
Barred and banned from discussion groups at a variety of POLITICAL-based web sites.
Barred and banned from discussion groups at a variety of MILITARY-based web sites.
Barred and banned from even web institutions like Wiki for your unseemingly behavior.
When will you have had enough to get the message it isn’t the other guy at fault, like you claim, IT’S YOU AND YOUR BEHAVIOR.
I wish there were a troll-be-gone charm that would get rid of your antics… but I guess even the best looking lawns will be threatened by moles, voles and vermin underground.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Deluca I’ve chosen just to ignore him; I’d advise you to do the same or he’ll start targeting you, stalk around and follow you from site to site, try to revoke your GayCard (lol), send you purient emails (don’t open them) and defame you at every opportunity. He’s a sick guy -or like you said elsewhere, creepy, very creepy.
Thanks though. Ignore him and stay on-topic; like Malcontent.biz/blog, IGF is a terrific forum for debate and discussion.
posted by Patrick on
I’ve been thinking that any type of dialogue with more groups has got to better than our current environment where all we seem to do is throw bricks and hope it becomes a soundbite one day.
But it does make sense, as Michiagn-Matt says, for the right gay group to speak on our collective behalf. We aren’t getting anywhere in the debate with Christians, Islamics or other religious people when we attack their faith in God.
posted by Charles Wilson on
Michigan Matt, the “moderate” whose response to the attempted murder of four people in a gay bar was to “quite playing the victim card,” now tells another lie about my sending him “prurient e-mails.”
In fact, I have never sent Michigan Matt an e-mail of any kind, prurient or otherwise. And, now that we’re talking about “prurience,” it’s worth mentioning that MM, the Log Cabinette, is on the record saying that his Republican “never gay” anti-gay hero, Matt Sanchez was a “bargain” when he was peddling his aseets for $200 an hour (in) and $250 an hour (out).
Not that “Malcontent,” his favorite wingnut site, wants to have any “dialogue” about that or any other Larry Craig-style hypocrisy. “We don’t talk about the homosex. We’re Republicans!”
posted by Michigan-Matt on
The IGNORE button is still “on”.
posted by Charles Wilson on
Yeah, MM, it really seems like you’re ignoring what I write. Woof. Damn. Ha!
posted by Patrick on
M-M you might be trying to ignore him but someone wrote on one of many sites that CW is banned from further comment (among them blogs for travel enthusiasts, forums on medical issues, blogs on military matters, forums supporting the troops, discussion boards on alternative energy, political commentary blogs plus others) that CW is like an STD; he’s the gift that just keeps on giving until you snuff it out with a round of antibiotics.
Leave him alone. He’s an angry bitter 51 yr old ex-journalist troll, suffering from several medical diseases and feeling very guilty about the death of his promiscuous partner. He deserves our pity, not our scorn.
He’s unhinged. Yesterday at a website on travel, he told a group of concerned, empathetic travelers worried about the loss of life in Burma that the weather disaster was just “Asian stir-fry” and implied that there was no need to be concerned because those “gooks will be back to making babies in a flash”.
posted by Charles Wilson on
Yesterday at a website on travel, he told a group of concerned, empathetic travelers worried about the loss of life in Burma that the weather disaster was just “Asian stir-fry” and implied that there was no need to be concerned because those “gooks will be back to making babies in a flash”.
Once again, the Log Cabinettes tell their lies. No one (me or anyone else) made those statements. Well, other than Patrick.
He’s an angry bitter 51 yr old ex-journalist troll, suffering from several medical diseases and feeling very guilty about the death of his promiscuous partner.
More Republican lies. My partner wasn’t promiscuous. I never gave any indication that he was. Nor have I stated or suggested that I somehow feel guilty for his death. To use a 50-year-old line: “At long last, sir, have you no decency?” Even for you people, this is pretty over the top.
posted by Patrick on
I see what you guys mean when you say leave Charles Wilson alone or he’ll stalk you.
Charles Wilson, as “Wet Willy” or “WillyWilson” or “willysnout” made the remark about “asian stir fry” as an appropos nickname for typhons and cyclones on a travel discussion board. I’ll get the citation.
What Charles fails to comprehend is that his arrogant, petty vindictive psychotic stalker conduct is coming home to roost and he doesn’t like it. Thrown off and banned from many sites for mean-spirited and caustic attacks on others (like he does here), he is still a bitter 51 yr old troll living in his Mom’s basement… no life, no future, just bitterness as his constant companion.
I think Charles Wilson should be the last one to cry “foul” when he gets returned all the indecency and flak he’s generated toward others. At least Charles, I’ve remained civil toward your antics. I don’t know how guys like Michigan-Matt, Brian, North Dallas 30 or others tolerate your antics. I guess maybe they don’t… it’s why they tell me to leave you alone.
posted by Charles Wilson on
Charles Wilson, as “Wet Willy” or “WillyWilson” or “willysnout” made the remark about “asian stir fry” as an appropos nickname for typhons and cyclones on a travel discussion board. I’ll get the citation.
Patrick, the Log Cabinette, has now changed his allegation. He has dropped the part about how I supposedly wrote that “gooks will be back to making babies in a flash.” What about that, Patrick? Did you think I’d overlook your Republican lie?
As for the “asian stir fry” remark, I never made it. That, too, is another one of your Log Cabinette lies. It must really bug you to be told the truth, just as it bugs Republicans in general and Matt Sanchez, Michigan-Matt, North Liar Forty, and Brian in particular.
Come on, Patrick, try the truth. How hard can it really be?
posted by Charles Wilson on
Oh, one other thing: I have never posted anywhere as “WetWilly.” That’s another lie from Patrick, who is rapidly accumulating a track record with the wingnut lies.
posted by Joel on
OMG corvino… everyone has their own view of an ideal world.. and mine is so parallel to the ‘lets keep talking’ theme.
“It distresses me most of all because both of the ?opposed? camps include families with gay kids. How do we help those kids? How do we let them know that it?s okay to be gay, despite the hurtful messages that they?re hearing from their parents?
”
This really stuck out for me because i can relate.
I’ve learned, i believe, that when you hear ppl talk like,
“‘s funny to watch gay wingnuts at play. Michigan-Matt, who pretends to be a “moderate” but is actually a self-loathing wingnut whackjob, posts at “Malcontent,” a gay fascist site that censors its comments page. If he loves those muzzles, I’m fine with whatever he does behind closed doors. Woof. Damn. But “dialogue” ought to start without censorship. It’s a tough issue for the right wing, ain’t it?”
I think ppl are capable of sifting and filtering through the adjectives and get out what hes trying to portray(however hes trying to portray it). I believe we can only get offended if we let it. Maybe its my background of having a parent saying your sick and confused(PERIOD). But stil.. it would do ppl good to hear what they dont want to hear, it will help for when you dont have any other choice. You will know how to confront them(or at least know what to think).
One gains nothing by tryng to be rude. Ive dialogued with anti-gay(extremists) the sort that would quarantine gays(like Egypt) and dissolve marriage entirely before ‘letting perverts desecrate the institution’. i wouldn’t trade any minute of it. Like Corvino’s quote explains,
“?If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth; if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.?”
BTW, is wilson against or for gays? And MM? and patrick? Its easier to understand and understand the crux of the issue presented when one has that clear.
I know John Corvino is a pro-gay advocate, one which i admire to his openness to hear the nonsense(or not) of others. Maybe like him, i value what everyone has to say, however imprudent, rude, dishonest, defaming, etc.. it might be.
In order to ‘get to’ the person, one needs to understand, and hearing them speak(however it is they portray it) brings ppl close to understanding each other.
Everyone has their own base to define and approve or disprove things. For example, atheist might base their moral out of reason and logic. Christians might base their moral entirely on the bible. Since everyone is different, everyone will respond in a different manner, but ultimately, they usually have soemthing to rely on. If, say… one was to try and persuade a change in moral in a fundamentalist christian… no amount of reason or logic will sway them. THus, as imprudent as it might sounds to ‘target the religion’ it would be the only way(imho) to bring ppl closer to talk in the same language.
PS: Might’ve gotten way off topic but its all related in the end.
posted by Patrick on
Joel, the idea that it is in the best interests of all gays to keep on talking with the opposition -even if they are as thick-headed and petulant as Charles Wilson- is a good one.
I don’t doubt that Michigan-Matt is pro-gay; you shouldn’t doubt that I am, either. The crux is, as a community, should we continue to allow hard left flamers like Charles Wilson and Gay Species and others here to “speak” or represent the totality of gay America? Their unique brand of anti-religion, anti-values, anti-America hate destroys any credibility gays have with others in our society.
I’d say NO.
Like Michigan-Matt, John Corvino strikes me as a moderate, thoughtful, engaging voice and a good representative of our community. It seems evident from M-M’s comments that he has a strong, vibrant leadership position in his gay community too.
I think both serve us well. I don’t think guys like Charles Wilson serve the gay community at all by their unrequited bitterness, anger and the fact that they allow their titanic ego to get in the way of reasoned debate, discussion.
If you haven’t learned here, there isn’t a thread that guys like Charles Wilson won’t work overtime to foul, spoil and poison. He’s like a walking 55 gallon drum of leaking toxic waste.
posted by Charles Wilson on
The crux is, as a community, should we continue to allow hard left flamers like Charles Wilson and Gay Species and others here to “speak” or represent the totality of gay America? Their unique brand of anti-religion, anti-values, anti-America hate destroys any credibility gays have with others in our society.
That’s funny. What I do here, in between gratuitous insults at the ever-insultable Log Cabinettes, is trap you and your wingnut friends in lie after lie after lie. Of course you don’t want to allow it. Liars never want to allow the truth.
posted by Joel on
Well… what are the lies that that you wish to trap the ‘wingnuts’ in? But before.. let me get this straight, CW is also for a gay accepting society?
Patrick, i would have to say i oppose far right(if im actually understanding the gist of whats hapening in this forum) before i oppose far left. But thats when speaking with ‘my own kind’.
“The crux is, as a community, should we continue to allow hard left flamers like Charles Wilson and Gay Species and others here to “speak” or represent the totality of gay America? ”
I believe censoring them does not help the issue, unless they silence or overhaul the ‘right-wing’ pro-gay advocates. Then… i would have to agree with you that letting them represent pro-gay advocacy would be detrimental. WHy? It would be better, imo, if superflous adjectives like ‘wingnut’, ‘whackos’ or expressions like ‘Woof. Damn. Ha!’ wouldnt be used when debating the opposition(as the opposition also tends to have alot of ‘right wing’ censorship upholding, insultable individuals, if not the majority) because they will simply NOT HEAR what our side has to say.
Banning them on our forums does not improve anything anyways. Rather, it might just show time and time again WHY such ‘far-left flamers’ wouldnt be the ideal advocates for a pro-gay society. From time to time they might also provide(with their own way of expressing) ideas that would serve the greater purpose.
I do not think we should silence them simply because they express things differently. Hell, their way of communicating the similar pro-gay message might be heard or understood by similar ‘far anti-gay flamers’ that would not hear the passive or ‘right-wing pro-gay advocates’. Of course, im not sure how this works out in the end but…. i deeply believe in freedom of speech. Like that of Sally Kern, or even the KKK. If they believe what they say, then it might do us good to hear it, however harsh or insulting the language might be. Why would it be good? Knowledge is power(very cliche but w/e), it gives us a better understanding of their position, it might have soemthing relevant we might wish to target, it might give us a ‘head-ups’ advantage when we have no choice and/or we arent reciprocating their own ‘censorship’, meaning, silencing the same ppl that silenced us at some point. Everyone likes to be heard, and if you also like to be heard(on whatever you have to say, specially if you mean it) it might be a good idea to practice such notion.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Patrick offers: “If you haven’t learned here, there isn’t a thread that guys like Charles Wilson won’t work overtime to foul, spoil and poison. He’s like a walking 55 gallon drum of leaking toxic waste.”
You’re right, Patrick. That’s a visual image I’ll keep in mind when I see his moniker… except I’ll put that 55 gallon drum in someone’s drafty, dusty basement with a daybed stuck in the corner near the mason jars.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Joel, I think you misunderstood, in part, what Patrick was saying -although I’d rather not put words in his mouth.
I thought he was saying that, as a rule, the gay community shouldn’t allow the radicalized, hard Left guys like CW (who also appears to be a racist on other forums) to monopolize the public arena or debate on gay issues. I think that kind of voice has been dominant in our culture for far, far too long and it has cost us real political capital and credibility with the general public.
I don’t think -nor do I read- that Patrick wanted to silence or censor egotistical loud mouth haters like CharWilson.
It’s just that we shouldn’t keep letting these types in our community get out there in public and speak unchallenged for our side. They ruin our credibility. They harm our long term political interests with their hate-filled spewing. They tend to take our issues and hitch ’em to the Democrats or the anti-religionists or people searching for publically funded sex change operations in prison… or NAMBLA… or free access to gay porn on public library computers.
Free speech is great! What I think Patrick was talking about is WHO appears to be speaking for our community and I know, for one, I don’t want it to be hotheads and intemperate radicals like CharlesWilson.
(If I’m wrong, Patrick, my apologies; that’s what I read in your comments)
posted by Joel on
Stanton isnt that naive on what hes defending. I hope John knows what hes doing and doesnt seem illiterate or knowledge-lacking when facing possible points stanton might raise.
Not too long ago Patrick Chapman had a debate with Glenn Stanton in BTB. The debate focused on gender and meaning of marriage. One of the first thigns that he mentioned was the hundred of books he had read on social science.. and stuff like that, related to marriage issues through history and gender variances.
ultimately, i dont think glenn ended convincing anybody but, if i was the one agaisnt him, I certainly would have had NOTHING to counter his ‘informed’ statements. I know Corvina has a lot of experience but.. so does Glenn.
posted by Charles Wilson on
the gay community shouldn’t allow the radicalized, hard Left guys like CW (who also appears to be a racist on other forums)
That’s a lie, Michigan Matt. I am not a racist anywhere. One of these days, you really ought to think about telling the truth about something. Anything! Ha!
It’s just that we shouldn’t keep letting these types in our community get out there in public and speak unchallenged for our side. They ruin our credibility.
The way our “credibility” is ruined is when Log Cabinettes tell one lie after another. Just look at their track record even within their own party. Since they were formed in the late 1970s, the Republicans have marched steadily to the far right on any issues having to do with gay people.
And what do the Michigan Matts of the world say about it? Well, they start by ridiculing gay marriage. When someone complains about the attempted murder of four gay people in a bar, Michigan Matt says: put away the victim/pity card.
And what do the Log Cabinettes think of themselves and the gay community? Read this from Michigan Matt: “Most gays I know are debt ridden, living paycheck2paycheck, on their 4-5-6th real LTR and still have furnishings left in their household from the 1st LTR move-out and break up.”
posted by Charles Wilson on
You know, with “friends” like Michigan Matt and the Log Cabinettes, I really wonder whether we need enemies. But worry not, because he still likes the man sex, and the nastier the better, as indicated by these comments by Michigan Matt about Matt Sanchez, the never-gay, anti-gay Republican gay whore.
By day, Michigan Matt, is ever-ready to proclaim his homespun values. But when he thinks no one’s looking, our Log Cabinette hypocrite (Larry? Larry?) pronounces that, at $200-$250 an hour, his friend the ex-Marine hustler “was a bargain in any book. Woof. Damn.”
I’ve been having my fun skewering phonies like Michigan Matt and his friend North Liar Forty, but seriously, folks: Is this what we want? A return to the glories of 1958? That’s what the Log Cabinettes and their friends are offering. I, for one, ain’t buying it. Not for one second am I buying into the twisted, grotesque, phony vision of theirs.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Of course not, Charles Wilson; what you want is for gay people to follow the same path that you and your “partner” followed.
On Sept. 22, 2004, he died of the combined effects of AIDS and chronic alcoholism.
The irony is how you accuse those of us who are disease-free, happily partnered, and living our lives quite nicely in direct contradiction to your “values” of being “twisted, grotesque, and phony”.
Seems ironic to hear that coming from a fiftyish individual who’s disabled, unable to work, regularly pissing all over himself because he lacks bladder control, who can’t remember even simple multiplication, and who buried his “partner” after an agonizing death, doesn’t it?
Why should parents with children want their kids to end up like you or your partner, Charles Wilson? What do you have to offer, other than a short life of promiscuity and substance abuse, followed with early disability and death?
posted by Charles Wilson on
I met my partner when I was 26 years old. He was 29. Well before the two of us met, when he was in his early 20s, he had had another partner. It was in the late ’70s, in the days before anyone know about AIDS.
The other guy played around. My partner never did. When my partner found out about the infidelity, he broke it off. Tragically, the other guy had contracted AIDS (then known as GRID), and died from it. That’s how my partner got it. Fortunately, I never contracted HIV.
My late partner certainly had his faults, as do I, but promiscuity wasn’t one of them. Unlike North Liar Forty, I don’t consider HIV to be anyone’s judgment on anyone else, nor do I make light of the suffering of those who get it.
I trust that anyone who happens to read this will see, in stark relief, just who and what North Liar Forty is, and what his friends are.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
LOL….and note the definition change here, how Charles Wilson ADMITS that his partner slept around and had sex with other men, but that his partner “wasn’t promiscuous”.
Unlike North Liar Forty, I don’t consider HIV to be anyone’s judgment on anyone else, nor do I make light of the suffering of those who get it.
Of course not, Charles; you just support and endorse those who spread it as having “fun”, and claim that those who point out the incredible damage that this causes people are homophobic and self-loathing.
If your story is true, your partner contracted AIDS because another gay person took your advice and refused to limit himself sexually, having multiple partners instead of following that “unenlightened” rule about sexual responsibility and monogamous relationships.
THAT is the ultimate irony here; your partner was killed by a behavior pattern that you yourself support and endorse.
And what this post should demonstrate is your utter cluelessness; you defend the behaviors that killed your partner, and you claim that those who oppose those behaviors are “from 1958”.
posted by Charles Wilson on
Charles Wilson ADMITS that his partner slept around and had sex with other men
You’re one sick dude, North Liar Forty. If having more than one partner in life is “sleeping around,” then yes, my partner “slept around.” But then, by your standard just about everyone has done so.
you just support and endorse those who spread it as having “fun”, and claim that those who point out the incredible damage that this causes people are homophobic and self-loathing
That’s a bald-faced lie. I’ve never even come close to saying, or implying, any such thing. It’s true that I haven’t gone batshit crazy about promiscuity like you have, but not being crazy doesn’t mean that I somehow recommend promiscuity.
your partner was killed by a behavior pattern that you yourself support and endorse
Again, that’s an out-and-out lie.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
LOL…Wilson, you openly mock and bash those who support monogamy and sex within committed relationships, calling them “wingnuts”.
You make it clear that “real gays” like you enjoy multiple sexual relationships and think monogamy is some relic left over from the 1950s.
Now you’re trying to argue that, even though your “partner” repeatedly slept with other men, he “wasn’t promiscuous” — especially hilarious when , as you did above, you tried to argue that Michigan-Matt’s merely remarking on a person’s looks made HIM promiscuous and immoral.
You threw sexual responsibility out the window and encouraged promiscuity, Wilson, and look what it got you; a diseased body, disability thirty years early, and a dead partner.
People should know what the “values” that you support and the behaviors you insist are “normal” for gay people end up producing.
And until the gay community kicks you and your “I couldn’t help it, I’m gay and this is what gays do” to the curb, it DESERVES to be dealt with accordingly.
posted by Charles Wilson on
you openly mock and bash those who support monogamy and sex within committed relationships, calling them “wingnuts”
No, North Liar Forty, a wingnut is a far-right-winger. Plenty of wingnuts are promiscuous, and plenty of lefties are monogamous.
You make it clear that “real gays” like you enjoy multiple sexual relationships and think monogamy is some relic left over from the 1950s.
Never wrote it, never implied it. What drugs are you on?
you tried to argue that Michigan-Matt’s merely remarking on a person’s looks made HIM promiscuous and immoral
Your buddy Matt did more than comment on your mutual friend Matt Sanchez‘s looks. He proclaimed that the Republican man-whore was a “bargain,” implying his approval of gay prostitution. That’s what we might call Larry Craig-style hypocrisy.
You threw sexual responsibility out the window and encouraged promiscuity, Wilson, and look what it got you; a diseased body, disability thirty years early, and a dead partner.
Wow, you’re really a sick puppy of a liar there. I’ve already explained my late partner’s situation; my own disability is not caused by a sexually transmitted disease, and you know it.
the behaviors you insist are “normal” for gay people end up producing
What behaviors did I “insist are ‘normal’ for gay people?” Please provide the citation and link, North Liar Forty.
And until the gay community kicks you and your “I couldn’t help it, I’m gay and this is what gays do” to the curb, it DESERVES to be dealt with accordingly.
Hmm. And what constitutes being “dealt with accordingly,” North Liar Forty? Please tell us exactly what you want done to “the gay community.” This should be interesting, you sick freak.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Plenty of wingnuts are promiscuous, and plenty of lefties are monogamous.
Perhaps we should show how Charles Wilson defines “monogamous” and “normal behavior” when applied to gay people.
Meanwhile, Charles Wilson says merely looking at a picture or stating that someone was a bargain if they were prostituting themselves makes you “promiscuous” when applied to people he doesn’t like.
What drugs are you on?
None. What drugs were you and your partner on, especially since you admit that your partner died partially as a result of alcohol and substance abuse?
I’ve already explained my late partner’s situation
Yup; he died partially because of a sexually-transmitted disease resulting from a) his sleeping around and b) someone else’s sleeping around as well, all of which you encourage and support as normal gay behavior.
Hmm. And what constitutes being “dealt with accordingly,” North Liar Forty? Please tell us exactly what you want done to “the gay community.” This should be interesting, you sick freak.
Well, let’s see.
We have a community that argues it’s “normal” and necessary for their “rights” for adults to have sex with fourteen-year-old boys.
We have a community that coerces teenage boys into sex and leaves them to face the consequences, i.e. HIV.
Barlow believes a combination of ignorance and emptiness led to his seroconversion. ?At that time I was the dumbest thing walking ? I thought I was invincible and could do whatever and not get ill,? said Barlow, who was 15 and dating a 35-year-old man. ?I thought I was in this relationship with this man who loved me, why do we need to wear condoms??
We have a community that openly mocks marriage and monogamy, claiming that sexuality outside of relationships is normal and that polysexual, multiple-conjugal-partner relationships should be recognized and given full benefits.
Straight people who spread HIV, have sex with underage children, and practice polygamy get put in jail.
I think the gay community can either clean up its act or have the same thing happen to it. And since I don’t want to go to jail, I’m going to take out the trash — which happens to be promiscuous, hatemongering leftists like yourself, Charles Wilson, who have been ruining the reputations of other gay people for years so that you could make excuses for your behavior.
posted by Patrick on
Charles lies again with “Your buddy Matt did more than comment on your mutual friend Matt Sanchez’s looks. He proclaimed that the Republican man-whore was a “bargain,” implying his approval of gay prostitution. That’s what we might call Larry Craig-style hypocrisy.”
I checked out your citation that you allege proves your point and it’s clear that the guy was joking about Sanchez and actually condemns Sanchez for his conduct.
M-M was joking, but you, Charles, lied to all of when you portrayed his comments as something entirely different.
You’ve complained that North Dallas 30 is sick? I doubt that. You’re the one with the obsessive, stalking, manic behavior pattern and self-destructive attitude toward others.
Maybe that’s why YOU’VE BEEN BARRED FROM blogs, discussion groups, forums and even from Wikipedia.
And you try to hijack nearly every thread here with your personal attacks that have nothing -not one single thing- to do with the topic.
Lying sack, hiding in his Mom’s basement, who bitterly attacks the world because hate and animosity has replaced the values of meaningful work and community.
posted by Patrick on
And the biggest whopping lie Charles tells is this one
“… my own disability is not caused by a sexually transmitted disease, and you know it.”
In a thread explaining who you are, Charles, on a blog you control, you wrotes on Sept 9, 2007, “I can’t be 100% medically certain, but I feel that the early onset of my multiple sclerosis was caused in some way by my life partner’s HIV status. MS is another auto immune condition which causes the patient’s own immune system to attack the nerves.”
I guess the lying about oneself follows the long-established pattern of lying about others?
posted by Patrick on
M-M, you are right. Charles Wilson is a racist at least where asian people are concerned. He wrote on a travel blog he loves to both bore and abuse people, that typhons and cyclones are just “asian stir fry”.
He wrote that after the untold tragic loss of life in Indonesia and when peers challenged him on his racial bigotry, he told them to piss off. He threatened them with legal action if they reported his abusive conduct to the blog masters and thread monitors.
What a great guy.
posted by Charles Wilson on
“In a thread explaining who you are, Charles, on a blog you control, you wrotes on Sept 9, 2007, “I can’t be 100% medically certain, but I feel that the early onset of my multiple sclerosis was caused in some way by my life partner’s HIV status. MS is another auto immune condition which causes the patient’s own immune system to attack the nerves.”
Wow, you people really get pretty vile with your lies. I never wrote that, or anything like it. Leave HIV out of it for a second. My MS is a textbook case. The onset wasn’t “early.”
And, when I’ve commented on causes of MS, I’ve been known for my belief that we don’t yet know what causes it. There are some pretty good suspects out there, but at no time have I ever said, nor have I ever believed, that there is a link of any kind between MS and HIV.
posted by Charles Wilson on
He wrote on a travel blog he loves to both bore and abuse people, that typhons and cyclones are just “asian stir fry”.
He wrote that after the untold tragic loss of life in Indonesia and when peers challenged him on his racial bigotry, he told them to piss off. He threatened them with legal action if they reported his abusive conduct to the blog masters and thread monitors.
Ha! You’re nuts, Patrick.
posted by Patrick on
Charles, that wasn’t a response, that was more lies and deceptions. I give you credit; you’re a perfect Democrat deep in the politics of personal destruction.
I wrote: I guess your lying is unstoppable. You were hoping that no one could catch you on your racist remarks about tropical disasters being just “asian stir fry”… and then, when it didn’t happen immediately, you got emboldened and thought you were in the clear… moving into usual attack mode.
You asked for it: on May 8th at 10:56, using the self-admitted pseudonym of willysnout, you wrote
“So why don’t you call yours typhoons and let the Asians call theirs stir fry?”
When a few commenters took exception to the racially motivated remark and challenged you for making it, you threatened them with “legal actions” if they persisted. You then got your buddies (who are blogmasters of the site) to strike the critical comments and what remains is a shell of the original diatribe.
Now, May8th was just LAST WEEK. Care to explain to all of us why you continued to deny making that comment? You’ve done it in these various IGF threads 6 times now.
Comment made on May 8th but denials from you repeatedly since?? Hmmm? even if you use some lame excuse like it was a joke (which the language and resulting interaction clearly shows it wasn’t for some), you can’t claim to have forgotten making a statement like “asian stir fry”. You have repeatedly said you didn’t say them, they were creations, imaginary notions from wingnut liars. Well?
Why lie about these things, willysnout or Charles Wilson or wet willy or CW?
BTW, at that site, commenters run a thread called “Most Outrageous Commenter of the Week” and you’ve won by a landslide. People seem to dislike you there as much as they do at Malcontent, Columbia University’s Blue & White blog, Mudville Gazette, Patterico’s Pontifications, Towleroad, DemocratUnderground, GruntDocs, brawnylads (hmmm), BoiFromTroy, Black5, One Marine’s View and dicussion boards on single malt scotch, segway, and microsoft.
The best advice to you, which you have elected to ignore, comes from the segway community discussion board FIVE YEARS AGO… 5 years ago in 2003,
“willysnout, unhook your questions and opinions from your unveiled hostility and personal attacks and cheap shots and you might get your questions answered and your opinions considered. Just a suggestion.”
And, true to form, you replied with anger and stalked the guy and the fouled the Board for months.
Now, what was that about your claim to Michigan-Matt “that I never made that (remark)” about natural disasters in the Pacific being just “asian stir fry”?
And it was only last week!!
I hope somewhere in your character you still have the capacity for bearing shame… because your conduct is shameful, even if you hide behind the smug exterior of someone on a mission of truth.
posted by Charles Wilson on
Take a chill pill, wingnut.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Patrick, you gotta hand it to Charles Wilson, our resident spittle foaming blog-banned flamer… he gets held accountable for all the lies and distortions he’s spewed and then tells you to “take a chill pill”?
Now, that’s about the only real funny thing that guy has posted, despite his annoying use of “Ha!” lines.
You nailed it when you inquired ” hope somewhere in your character you still have the capacity for bearing shame… because your conduct is shameful, even if you hide behind the smug exterior of someone on a mission of truth.”
Of course, he doesn’t. Character is lacking in most gayLeft loons.
Back on topic… do you think it strange that in a thread about the importance of dialogue for gays, one of the resident racist baiters here tries to silence fair, honest, balanced discussion?
I sure don’t.
posted by Charles Wilson on
Michigan-Matt, isn’t there any champagne left over from that party full of destitute and inferior homosexuals that was thrown in your, um, honor? Drink up! Woof. Damn. Ha!
posted by BrianRI on
Mr Wilson, I like reading the interesting mix of commentary here on this blog but I’ve grown exceptionally tired of your childlike conduct. For the great benefit of all, would you please quiet your attacks and harrassment of people here and use this space to advance, not diminish, discussions?
Please. Thanks.
posted by Charles Wilson on
Brian, ah another wingnut comes to the party. Here’s some advice: Tell your friends Matt, North Liar Forty, and Patrick to knock it off with the lies and the viciousness. Thank you. Ha!
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Mr Wilson, I like reading the interesting mix of commentary here on this blog but I’ve grown exceptionally tired of your childlike conduct. For the great benefit of all, would you please quiet your attacks and harrassment of people here and use this space to advance, not diminish, discussions?
Please. Thanks.”
Brian, thanks for speaking the truth to insanity and the very font of unreasonable, socipathic flaming, our resident foamer.
A word of caution: CharlesWilson likes to stalk people across the internet, like he’s done with me and others, uncover email addresses and send disgusting messages, haunt your IM box until you block him– as lots of blogs, board and sites have had to do, including even Wiki.
With that caution made, thanks for being here and speaking up to that loon. Honestly, thanks.
posted by Charles Wilson on
Michigan Matt, what happened to your “ignore” strategy? I’ll answer that one: You lied about that one, too. You couldn’t tell the truth if your life depended on it.
Speaking of lies, Matt, I’ve never sent you an IM. I’ve used IM about three times in my life. Nothing against it, but IMs just never really cut it for me. So you’ve lied about me “haunt(ing) your IM box.”
Similiarly, I have never sent you ANY e-mail message, let alone a “disgusting” one. So, you lied about that, too. What is it with you and your Leg Cabinettes? Did you get a lobotomy or something? Ha!
posted by Patrick on
Just for the record, I’d like to note that KingCharles is lying -again.
Mchigan-Matt wasn’t lying, from what I read here and the abuse others’ have felt at the tortured keyboard of KingCharles.
M-M tried to persuade me not to get into a pissing match Charles Wilson usually likes to play out -and has played out repeatedly on many, many blogs, sites, boards, forums etc.
Which we all know is just Charles Wilson’s lonely looney stalking personality (personalities?).
M-M forwarded the emails KingCharles sent to him and they are pretty scummy, threatening, and sick. M-M’s also has gotten a rather interesting uptick in spam emails with his address in them from porn sites, Democrat Party fringe groups, male escort services all implying that he specifically asked for them to add him to their mailing lists. He shared some of those with me, as well.
One of the notifications to “add” MM to a site of former male porn stars turned escort had willsnout’s email address contained. Ooops, KingCharles, I don’t think you meant to do that.
You might also want to know, KingCharles, that MM shared with me the IMs… he archived them. Your baiting and stalking conduct is pretty weird there and comes across screamingly in those IMs.
MM, like many blogmasters, finally blocked willysnout… but the guy will probably just create a new gravatar and circle back around.
Scarey. Sick.
posted by Charles Wilson on
Again, I don’t use IM, and I’ve never sent your friend Michigan Matt any e-mails. Maybe this explains Michigan Matt: “My uncle served 57 yrs in Alcatraz for multiple prison breaks, robbery, pistol whipping and killing a guard, and countless crimes in the 9 adult yrs he wasn’t in prison.”
Scratch a Republican, and you’ll find a criminal? Ha!
posted by You might also want to know, KingCharles, that MM shared with me the IMs... he archived them. Your baiting and stalking conduct is pretty weird there and comes across screamingly in those IMs. on
You might also want to know, KingCharles, that MM shared with me the IMs… he archived them. Your baiting and stalking conduct is pretty weird there and comes across screamingly in those IMs.
Scarey. Sick
posted by Charles Wilson on
Again, Patrick, I don’t use IM. It’s disabled on my computer. And I have never sent any e-mails to Michigan Matt. He knows it, and so do you. You can kick and scream and stamp your little feet all you want, but that won’t change the facts. Ha!
By the way, why are you so interested, anyway? What’s it to you?
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Patrick, just for the record and to be able to cite back to this very spot for future tagging when Charles Wilson begins his lying, deceptive tantrums again…
You said:
Just for the record, I’d like to note that KingCharles is lying -again.
“Mchigan-Matt (sic) wasn’t lying, from what I read here and the abuse others’ have felt at the tortured keyboard of KingCharles.”
Facts checked: truth it is.
“M-M tried to persuade me not to get into a pissing match Charles Wilson usually likes to play out -and has played out repeatedly on many, many blogs, sites, boards, forums etc.”
Facts checked: truth it is… and don’t you regret it now?
“Which we all know is just Charles Wilson’s lonely looney stalking personality (personalities?).”
Facts checked: if by personalities you mean lots of sockpuppets used at sites that ban, bar and block him? Then truth it is.
“M-M forwarded the emails KingCharles sent to him and they are pretty scummy, threatening, and sick.”
Facts checked: truth it is again. Charles Wilson, willysnout, WW, CW, wet willy and other sockpuppets have a long and discredited history of sockpuppet use to avoid blocking.
“M-M’s also has gotten a rather interesting uptick in spam emails with his address in them from porn sites, Democrat Party fringe groups, male escort services all implying that he specifically asked for them to add him to their mailing lists.”
Facts checked: truth again.
“One of the notifications to “add” MM to a site of former male porn stars turned escort had willsnout’s email address contained. Ooops, KingCharles, I don’t think you meant to do that.”
Facts checked: truth it is again… he stupidly used his willysnout email addy in a reply line for spam.
“You might also want to know, KingCharles, that MM shared with me the IMs… he archived them. Your baiting and stalking conduct is pretty weird there and comes across screamingly in those IMs.”
Facts checked: truth it is again.
“MM, like many blogmasters, finally blocked willysnout… but the guy will probably just create a new gravatar and circle back around.”
Facts checked: truth it is again. But wet willy hasn’t shown any evidence of circumventing those blocks yet.
“Scarey. Sick.”
Facts checked: truth it is again.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
So Patrick, how does it feel to have replaced wet willy’s obsession over porn star Matt Sanchez or gay civil rights activist Michigan-Matt or gay blogger North Dallas 30 as the new target in wet will’s pantheon of stalkettes?
Got be tickling some hairs on the back of your neck? In a spookey, creepy way.
posted by Charles Wilson on
One of the notifications to “add” MM to a site of former male porn stars turned escort had willsnout’s email address contained. Ooops, KingCharles, I don’t think you meant to do that.
My yahoo address is out there on the Internet. Anyone can add it to a website. I’ve used IM about three times. After trying it a few times I decided that I don’t prefer to communicate that way. IM is disabled on my computer.
And Michigan-Matt, you are well aware that I’ve never communicated with you that way, nor have I ever sent you an e-mail. You keep telling all these lies; as for me, when I make an assertion of fact, it’s documented.
Matt, you’re a pathetic, whining, Log Cabinette Republican liar who can’t tell the truth about a single thing.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Charles, I told you on the 2nd or 3rd email and the very first IM of nearly 40 that I would not hesitate to share those with others if you persisted in stalking me… and I also told you my 11 yr old son, innocent of all your sick perversions, used our home computer as well.
Yet, you persisted. You said, “tough luck Matt; you offended me and if your son or partner read of it, too bad. You probably don’t even have a son”.
And to think that people are now condemning you for your atrocious behavior here… just like the many have protested against your sick conduct at other blogs, sites, boards, forums and threads where you’ve been banned, barred and blocked… as well as all the sockpuppets they’ve caught you using to less effect.
No, Charles, you are the pathetic one. Solely and singularly of all the people I’ve encountered. I would say you are as near to evil as a devil. And about as wiley and unrepentant, too.
Let’s remember, more folks here are now coming to condemn your conduct… calling it, let me see… the word was “atrocious”.
posted by Charles Wilson on
Matt, you’ve always been able to share these e-mails and IMs that you’ve claimed I sent. Be sure to include the full headers, you whining, pathetic Log Cabinette liar. Ha!
posted by Charles Wilson on
By the way, Matt, did you use that same computer that the 11-year-old was also using when you cruised the Internet for hot guys like your buddy Matt Sanchez, who you pronounced “a bargain in any book. Woof. Damn.”?
Wait — it doesn’t matter, because as an A-Gay, never-gay, anti-gay Log Cabinette shyster who thinks he’s better than everyone else, the ordinary rules don’t apply to you. I always forget that.
posted by Michigan-Matt on
What YOU always forget Charles is that people here have called you out on the carpet and it just isn’t a few people from that vast rightwing conspiracy you rant against… they’ve called you “childish”, they’ve called you “atrocious”, they’ve called you “a bore and abusive”, they’ve called you “the village idiot”.
So, what you forget Charles Wilson is that, just like countless other blogs PLUS blogs you consider “home and friendly” to your unique blend of arrogance, condescension and hate, people generally have said you’re the problem… not me, not wingnuts, not LCRs, not even the guy who you clearly obsess and stalk with an unusualy passion -Matt Sanchez; to whom you’ve created a site that any 16 yr old gay would see through you as being “worshipful” of Sanchez’s former life as a porn star and escort.
But, you keep going Charles Wilson, because the one thing you’ve learned in all these years of stalking, hate-spewing verbal violence is that… if you keep at it… you’ll end up driving everyone away.
And that’s what you want: Everyone to be as unhappy and lonely and miserable and forgotten as you.
Now, it’s that a bit more like pathetic, even in your mirror?
posted by Charles Wilson on
I would say you are as near to evil as a devil. And about as wiley and unrepentant, too.
And a stalking fag, too, right Michigan Matt, the “moderate” and “progressive”? Are you channeling Roy Cohn again? I must say that you and your buddies do crack me up sometimes. Do you have any idea how utter ridiculous you have shown yourself to be? Ha!
posted by Michigan-Matt on
Charles, dear, I never called you a stalking fag… that was other “fans” of yours you’ve gathered from your presence on this blog and elsewhere.
Being a political moderate doesn’t mean appeasing people like you, Charles. I thought you, of all people given your pronouncements and attempts at defending racist, bigoted remarks you’ve made, would appreciate that point.
Of course, I guess I’m about as ridiculous to you as all those blgomasters who have had to ban, bar, block and blacklist you… or the IGF Editors here who reminded you to temper your hate-filled rants.
I will agree with your characterization of ridiculous on one point, Charles… to entertain a discussion with you is folly and for that, I stand guilty of being ridiculous enough to think you’d “get it” at some point.
Well, at least other readers and commenters here know you’re the one to be laughed at… as they’ve told you, repeatedly. And you STILL don’t get it.