No one was surprised when the Phelpses announced plans to protest Heath Ledger's memorial services. Known for their "God Hates Fags" message and their obnoxious funeral pickets-they now demonstrate against fallen American soldiers for defending our "doomed, fag-loving nation"-the Phelpses are nothing if not attention whores. What's surprising is how much the Phelpses can tell us about ourselves.
Let's admit it: deranged people, like car wrecks, are fascinating to watch. While everyone would be better off ignoring the Phelpses, doing so is hard sometimes. (I feel the same way about Britney, Paris, and Lindsay-my willpower against media "junk food" is only so strong.) So it was that I recently found myself listening to Shirley Phelps-Roper-daughter of Fred, who founded the infamous Westboro Baptist Church-when she appeared on a Washington D.C. radio station.
Phelps-Roper condemned Ledger for Brokeback Mountain, in which he plays a cowboy who falls in love with another man. Ledger is in hell because he mocked God's law, she claimed, and "if you follow his example, you will go to hell with him."
Predictably, the show's callers attacked Phelps-Roper; sadly, they often made little sense. One insisted that, according to the bible, God doesn't judge anyone. Say what? Phelps-Roper's reading of the bible may be selective, but apparently, so is everyone else's: it doesn't take much searching to find a judgmental, even wrathful God in the bible.
The show's host then attacked Phelps-Roper for her picket signs, which often thank God for disasters: "Thank God for 9/11." "Thank God for maimed soldiers." "Thank God for Hurricane Katrina." and so on. Phelps-Roper had a ready comeback:
"Exactly. You better thank him for all of his judgments because the scripture says that God is known by the judgment that he executes in this Earth, so you thank him for everything."
This answer is interesting, and not as bizarre as it might first appear. Theologians have long pondered the problem of evil-if God is all-knowing, all-good, and all-powerful, why does he allow evil in the world?-and some quite respectable ones have concluded that evil doesn't really exist. From our limited human perspective, things may look bad, but that's just because our minds are too feeble to comprehend God's design: ultimately, everything is just as God planned it.
The problem is that, pushed to its limits, this position quickly yields practical contradictions. By this logic, we ought to thank God for Heath Ledger's death; but by the same logic, we ought to thank God for Brokeback Mountain's box-office success. We ought to thank God for Hurricane Katrina; yet we ought also to thank him for sparing the (delightfully debaucherous) French Quarter. We ought to thank God for AIDS, yet also for protease inhibitors. If God should be thanked for everything, then God should be thanked for EVERYTHING.
Yet somehow I don't expect to see the Phelpses with signs thanking God for same-sex marriage in Massachusetts, or the passage of ENDA, or the increasing acceptance of GLBT people. If I were on a radio program with Shirley Phelps-Roper, I'd want to ask her "Why not?" If all of God's judgments are "perfect," why not these?
My guess is that she'd answer that these events result from human free will rather than divine will. But then how do we distinguish them from 9/11? Was it God's will for Islamic extremists to fly planes into buildings? If so, do they escape hell, since they were only doing God's will? If not, then why are we thanking God, rather than blaming the extremists?
I wouldn't expect a satisfying answer to these questions, but that's not because Phelps-Roper is deranged (which she is) or stupid (which she isn't, as far as I can tell). It's because centuries of philosophical theology have failed to produce satisfying answers to the problem of evil. Instead, we pick and choose: even though God is supposed to be responsible for everything, we thank him for the things we like and call the rest a mystery. In this respect Phelps-Roper resembles most biblical believers: she just happens to "like" rather different things than sane folks do.
A talented and likable actor dies in his prime. The Phelpses thank God, while mainstream believers declare God's will a mystery. Had the paramedics saved him, mainstream believers would thank God while the Phelpses declared God's will a mystery. In either case, divine providence remains unquestioned. Heads, God wins. Tails, God wins.
If there's a mystery here, it's why believers seem to have lower expectations of God than they do of local weather forecasters. That, and why a loving God lets the Phelpses continue to spew hate in his name.
46 Comments for “The Phelpses’ Logic (and Ours)”
posted by Regan DuCasse on
Shirley P-R is also a white supremacist. She was interviewed years ago on 20/20 regarding this fact. Also on Tyra Banks on the same subject of white supremacy.
Anyway, the whole family is basically very insulated, but for their media junkets. The children are home schooled and force fed Scripture all day. The second and third generations are literally imprisoned. Personal freedom is not an option.
Retribution and punishment have more gravitas to this family than extending the second commandment of Christ. That commandment is lost on them because it would require bravery to do so. It would require extending oneself from the narrow interpretations that most people are confortable with in the Bible.
The Phelps are just FAR more honest about their beliefs and intentions than those we encounter every day. Who look us in the face, but vote in ways that do more harm than the Phelps where it matters.
The Phelps are pests, and they constantly threaten to pester.
There are saner, better minds out there…but the problem is, sometimes the more courageous Christian, when it comes to speaking on gay people and their equality, seem so rare.
posted by Bobby on
Jerry Falwell once joked the the Phelp’s seem like gay activists, because whenever they condemn gays, gays get more sympathy. And now that the Phelps hate America and carry signs that say “Thank God for Dead Soldiers.” They’re gonna turn off even more people. So I think this is wonderful, let him protest the funeral. Let America see the kind of human garbage that has no respect for the dead. This is a lot more effective than some fascist sensitivity training session. Why tell people to be sensitive when you can show them what happens when you’re not?
posted by Richard J. Rosendall on
“…and some quite respectable ones have concluded that evil doesn?t really exist.”
As Voltaire’s Dr. Pangloss said (parodying Leibnitz), “All is for the best in this best of all possible worlds.”
posted by Pat on
Good article. I’ve been thinking the same thing about how people always say God is responsible for good things and never for the bad things. And also praise Him for a miracle of a recovery of a very ill person when I’m thinking maybe it would have been better if the person never became ill in the first place.
I started thinking about these things when I read Vincent Bugliosi’s book on the OJ Simpson trial. He wrote an appendix regarding God after Simpson’s sister-in-law asked “where are you God?” (or something like that) after the verdict. He had questioned how God could be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent, and priests could never answer the question. So it became clear to me that God be two of the three, but not all three.
It just seems like people I know, who normally have common sense and/or cynical, seem abandon common sense and cynicism when it comes to God. I do believe in God, and I believe God gave us a brain. I don’t believe He wanted us to just blindly accept every claim that an image of Jesus on a taco shell is a miracle, and worry that we’ll go to hell if we question it.
But with the Phelps, the article now makes their irrational behavior make a little more sense. They are just as selective as others as to what to praise God for. I prefer the others much more, of course.
If there?s a mystery here, it?s why believers seem to have lower expectations of God than they do of local weather forecasters.
I got a kick out of this as well. I know a woman who is obsessed with watching weather reports. She’ll go on about how accurate they are. But in the next breath will say that she has to watch the weather reports several times a day, because they change all the time.
posted by Bobby on
“I started thinking about these things when I read Vincent Bugliosi’s book on the OJ Simpson trial. He wrote an appendix regarding God after Simpson’s sister-in-law asked “where are you God?”
Bugliosi’s an idiot, what does he think? That God is the world’s babysitter? That he’s gonna tell us what to do and stop us from doing bad things? Hell no. He gave us free will. He’ll help those who help themselves, but he’s not just gonna give every poor person a million dollars, or heal every sick person, or stop hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes. Those are things we all have to face.
And don’t get me started on those people who pray that their team wins the Super Bowl. Why the hell would the creator of the universe bother with a stupid football game?
posted by Priya Lynn on
Bobby, the bountiful existence of evil in the world is proof of your god’s non-existence. A loving, just, and omnipotent god simply couldn’t stand aside and allow the evil that exists in the world, only his non-existence can excuse his inaction.
posted by Karen on
“He gave us free will. He’ll help those who help themselves”
Free will and “God’s will” are mutually imcompatible ideas unless God’s will is as vague as a beauty queen’s interview answer… “World peace and an end to hunger!” I mean, assuming we all agree on the definition of “will” and “plan” here, there’s only a couple of directions this can go. God’s will/plan has to lie somewhere on the continuum between “completely detailed map of all events and history” and “vague wish for good things”.
If God has any kind of definite plan for the world, but we have free will, the world must have been deviating from God’s planned course since day 1. We must be so off track by now – I bet that none of the people he had “planned” for 2008 even exist.
Unless God’s plan doesn’t concern itself with such details as who makes babies with who, of course. In which case, since the person you are depends an awful lot on where and to whom you are born, the actual characteristics of the people involved aren’t part of the plan.
But the course of human events is completely dependent on the characteristics of the humans participating. So how could our history possibly be a result of God’s will? Natural events – acts of God – can only go so far in adjusting the basic outline of history. A storm here, an illness there… with a set of people entirely different from the plan, there’s only so much that those tweaks could do to wrest history back into line with God’s plan without going into the territory of actually *interfering* with our will instead of just adjusting the choices available to us. And where DO you draw that line, for that matter? If God, say, prevents me from meeting someone because an eventual choice I make as a result would have an undesired outcome, do I really have free will in this situation?
Unless, of course, God already knows the outcome of every decision anyone will ever make, and can see the entire result at once, and this is “God’s will”. In which case, is it either not really God’s will – it’s the result of the competing free wills of the billions of humans ever born, combined – or it’s not really free will, it’s predestination.
I suppose this is a problem that has to be swept under the rug of mystery, faith, and “things our puny consciousness can’t imagine”, eh? How convenient…
As far as “helping those who help themselves”, how is this distinguishable from simply… people helping themselves? And how do you explain the people who TRY to help themselves but are thwarted by circumstances instead of helped? What happens when helping one self-helper makes things go badly for another self-helper? How does God choose who to help?
Isn’t it more likely that any God that might exist does not have a will like that we experience in ourselves (to paraphrase Einstein)? That the point of God is not to guide our lives and smite our enemies?
posted by Pat on
Bugliosi’s an idiot, what does he think? That God is the world’s babysitter? That he’s gonna tell us what to do and stop us from doing bad things? Hell no. He gave us free will. He’ll help those who help themselves, but he’s not just gonna give every poor person a million dollars, or heal every sick person, or stop hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes. Those are things we all have to face.
Bobby, I don’t know whether Bugliosi is an idiot or not, and I wouldn’t characterize his beliefs in God as you have. All I can say is that he made the case easy and simple (which it was) against OJ Simpson, and pointed out the mega flaws in the prosecution’s case. I believe if he was the prosecutor, he would have had an easy conviction. But who knows for sure.
As for his belief in God, he states that he’s agnostic. And that if there is a God, his belief is more like a deist. He was noting the contradictions to belief in free will and God’s alleged omniscience. As for stopping hurricanes, I ask why were they “created” in the first place. The point is if God is omnipotent, He can stop (or better yet, not even create) hurricanes and other devastations, but chose not to. And chose that millions and millions of people would die as a result. So, in my book, that doesn’t make God omnibenevolent. Or maybe He didn’t know about it to try to stop it, in which case, He is not omniscient.
As for God helping those that help themselves, that’s great. But we all know of stories of good, hard working, bust their ass people who still suffer from tragedies and untimely deaths. They didn’t ask to be babysat by God, but just wanted a fair chance. And didn’t get it. That’s the way life is, and that’s fine and I accept it. But that doesn’t have to mean that I have to accept that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.
I just can’t get myself to say things like, “Well God has a good reason for innocent people to get their face bashed in, for that earthquake to kill hundreds of thousands of people, etc.”
If someone came up to me and said they were going to punch me, that they had good reason, and I need to accept it. I’m not going to stand there like an idiot and let it happen.
posted by Pat on
And don’t get me started on those people who pray that their team wins the Super Bowl. Why the hell would the creator of the universe bother with a stupid football game?
Bobby, I’m in complete agreement here.
Except, I think it was God who helped the Giants beat the Patriots in the Super Bowl, because the NFL couldn’t do the right thing, and mete out real punishment against the Patriots in week 1 of the season when they were caught cheating against the Jets. 🙂
posted by Tom on
You know, God must be pretty pissed for all the shit he catches. I know if I was blamed for every friggin branch that dropped out of the sky, I’d be fairly overwhelmed with the responsibility. I’m kinda stupid but at least I don’t blame all my challenges on an invisible deity in the sky.
posted by Priya Lynn on
Tom, imaginary characters don’t get pissed off or overwhelmed.
posted by Pat on
Tom, I don’t think God is pissed at all. If God is omnipotent, then he is responsible for every branch that falls out of the sky. And it would be a super easy responsibility at that. Omnipotence is pretty powerful stuff. But whatever, I don’t blame God for everything bad, and I don’t praise Him for everything good either. I believe He knows what’s in my heart. I hope He likes it. If not, oh well. I can only make sense of things the best way I can.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
The point is if God is omnipotent, He can stop (or better yet, not even create) hurricanes and other devastations, but chose not to. And chose that millions and millions of people would die as a result. So, in my book, that doesn’t make God omnibenevolent.
What happens when people receive everything for which they ask, never have to wait or want for anything, and for whom someone is always there to smooth out their problems or grant their whim?
They grow up to be Paris Hilton — spoiled, self-centered, convinced that only they are right, and contemptuous of everything and everyone around them.
Bugliosi’s postulate is that God cannot be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent because “bad things” happen. The problem is that the definitions of “bad thing” and “good thing” are highly fluid. For example, it is a bad thing when you get a flat tire on your car — but what if your stopping to fix that flat tire means you aren’t smack in the middle of an intersection that a drunk is going to run a red light on five minutes later? It might be a good thing for you to win the lottery, but what if it prevents another person who needed the money more from doing so? It is a “bad thing” when a young person is killed in a car accident, but what if that provides donor organs to other people who otherwise would have died?
Romans 8:28a states, “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him”. Note that that verse does not say everything that happens to those who love God will be good, only that those things that happen work FOR the good in the long term.
For example, as a child, I hated the fact that my parents made me wear orthopedic shoes and couldn’t understand for the life of me why I couldn’t wear sneakers. Thirty years later, I know why; had they not done so, my feet, as the result of a birth defect, would never have grown properly and I would be crippled. For four years of discomfort and social inconvenience, I have a lifetime of being able to walk, run, lift, and do things that I would never be able to do had my parents been “benevolent” and allowed me to wear what I wanted to wear.
In a similar fashion does God think in the long term.
posted by Bobby on
“Bobby, the bountiful existence of evil in the world is proof of your god’s non-existence. A loving, just, and omnipotent god simply couldn’t stand aside and allow the evil that exists in the world, only his non-existence can excuse his inaction.”
—Yet many people still manage to believe in God, even after great personal tragedies. Even after surviving war. God gives people more hope than socialist speeches by radicals, welfare, government programs, and a bunch of other dubious things. A loving God gives you what you need. Maybe you need to be poor, maybe you need to be in a wheelchair, maybe you need to be mentally retarded. There are plenty of assholes in this world who are physically beautiful, rich and powerful. I once read some asshole gays saying that only ugly trolls didn’t get AIDS in the 1980s. Frankly, people like that deserve to get AIDS, God did them no favor by making them beautiful.
Yet people who aren’t beautiful do develop other talents and skills. Bill Gates is a great example of that.
Also, the existence of God’s will and free will is not contradictory. God’s will may be that you’ll be born blind, however, free will allows you to seek an operation that might cure your blindness. God’s will may be that you’ll be born gay, it’s your free will that decides how you’ll handle that.
In the end, everyone worships something. Atheists for example worship nature, the government, technology, science, they think all answers lie in those things. Sure, you can blame religious people for alcohol prohibition, but it’s secular people that have been at the vanguard of tobaco prohibition. It’s all the same shit, your secular friends are no better than fundamentalists, they aren’t any more tolerant, open minded, I’ve met plenty of secular homophobes, people who hate gays not because the bible tells them so, but because they think we’re disgusting. So your secular fetish doesn’t mean evil will end. Evil will always exist no matter what.
posted by Pat on
What happens when people receive everything for which they ask, never have to wait or want for anything, and for whom someone is always there to smooth out their problems or grant their whim?
They grow up to be Paris Hilton — spoiled, self-centered, convinced that only they are right, and contemptuous of everything and everyone around them.
NDT, I was talking about REAL tragedies. Not tragedies that are perceived by the Paris Hiltons of this world.
Bugliosi’s postulate is that God cannot be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent because “bad things” happen. The problem is that the definitions of “bad thing” and “good thing” are highly fluid. For example, it is a bad thing when you get a flat tire on your car — but what if your stopping to fix that flat tire means you aren’t smack in the middle of an intersection that a drunk is going to run a red light on five minutes later? It might be a good thing for you to win the lottery, but what if it prevents another person who needed the money more from doing so? It is a “bad thing” when a young person is killed in a car accident, but what if that provides donor organs to other people who otherwise would have died?
I don’t remember exactly what Bugliosi’s postulate regarding the omni- things. My postulate though is that God is two of the three and not all three.
As for your flat tire example. First of all, what happens afterwards is irrelevant. After the flat tire is fixed, good or bad are about as equally likely to happen as if there were no flat tire. On the other hand, if you believe God “caused” the flat tire to happen, since otherwise an accident would have happened, then why prevent the worse tragedy anyway. In other words, if God has the power to cause the flat tire, He could also have prevented the later accident anyway. Same with your example of the accident and organ donation. Why not prevent the accident and prevent the organ failures?
For example, as a child, I hated the fact that my parents made me wear orthopedic shoes and couldn’t understand for the life of me why I couldn’t wear sneakers.
Unless you were very young, I’m sure you could have been made to understand that if you didn’t wear the orthopedic shoes, you wouldn’t be able to walk when you got older. At least there was a rational reason.
I can’t find rational reasons for someone dying tragically, even if the victim’s organs help others. I can accept it, and try to make the best of it, but that’s about it. Simply saying God has some mysterious reason for this “goodness in the long term” sounds all nice, warm, and fuzzy, but doesn’t work in my view, especially since no one knows that it’s even true in the first place.
In a similar fashion does God think in the long term.
That’s possible, I suppose.
Frankly, people like that deserve to get AIDS, God did them no favor by making them beautiful.
Bobby, I would say that if God was responsible for making them beautiful, He did them a great favor. But He did them no favor when these gay people became assholes.
posted by Priya Lynn on
An omnipotent and loving god would prevent bad things from happening.
Northdallass said What happens when people receive everything for which they ask, never have to wait or want for anything, and for whom someone is always there to smooth out their problems or grant their whim? They grow up to be Paris Hilton — spoiled, self-centered, convinced that only they are right, and contemptuous of everything and everyone around them.”.
The flaw in that theory is that according Christianity this perfectly describes heaven where all “good” christians go. According to Northdallass heaven can’t be as Christians say it is because it would make the people who go there bad.
The other flaw in his logic is that if god is omnipotent he can make people so that having everything they want doesn’t make them bad people or deny them free will. Anyway you slice it either god allows evil because he is evil, or as we all know in our hearts he doesn’t exist at all.
Bobby said ” A loving God gives you what you need. Maybe you need to be poor, maybe you need to be in a wheelchair, maybe you need to be mentally retarded.”
That’s one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read. For starters there is no loving god giving anyone anything and the idea that people need to be poor, retarded, tortured, killed, to die at birth, etc. is preposterous.
posted by Priya Lynn on
As well, the idea that people who get everything they want end up rotten people contemptuous of everyone around them most certtainly isn’t true. Bill Gates has everything he wants and is one of the greatest philanthropists there ever was, as have many wealthy people who gave away most of their fortunes to the poor. There is most certainly no evidence that Paris is contemptuous of everyone around her.
posted by Priya Lynn on
A man who believed he bore the “mark of the beast” used a circular saw to amputate one of his hands, cooked it in a microwave and summoned authorities, Kootenai County sheriff’s deputies say.
The man, in his mid-20s, was calm when deputies arrived at his home in this north Idaho town Saturday afternoon, and neither he nor the severed hand bore any noticeable tattoo or other mark, sheriff’s Capt. Ben Wolfinger.
“It had been somewhat cooked by the time the deputy arrived,” Wolfinger said.
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=C85CC4749AD8DC17DAD39E5A6241BCDA?diaryId=4129
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
As for your flat tire example. First of all, what happens afterwards is irrelevant. After the flat tire is fixed, good or bad are about as equally likely to happen as if there were no flat tire. On the other hand, if you believe God “caused” the flat tire to happen, since otherwise an accident would have happened, then why prevent the worse tragedy anyway. In other words, if God has the power to cause the flat tire, He could also have prevented the later accident anyway. Same with your example of the accident and organ donation. Why not prevent the accident and prevent the organ failures?
Well, Pat, let me put it this way; we could prevent students from ever having the tragedy of a failing grade by not grading anything at all.
How effective do you think that would be in helping them learn and develop if, no matter what they did, they were always praised and never in any way faced failure?
What do you think would happen if one student saying, “This is dumb, why should we have to learn this?” meant that it was immediately erased and stricken from the curriculum and never taught again?
We learn from our mistakes, our setbacks, and our disasters in the same way that we learn from our successes. Parents who indulge their children in everything, cover up for all their mistakes, and ensure they never have to lift a finger for anything or suffer any hardships end up with spoiled brats.
God knows that, and does better.
The flaw in that theory is that according Christianity this perfectly describes heaven where all “good” christians go. According to Northdallass heaven can’t be as Christians say it is because it would make the people who go there bad.
And how do they get there, Randi?
By acknowledging the existence of God, by accepting the redemption of sins through Jesus, and by doing their best to follow His commandments.
They’ve already demonstrated that they have the fundamentals down. Heaven is a bit like the person who’s worked hard, saved, been frugal, and done a fine job of managing their money enjoying a comfortable retirement.
Furthermore, it will be far easier to believe, behave, and do what God says when God is right there and visible to you. Right now, what we have is like a classroom full of kids; when the teacher is there, the rules become much easier to obey, but when the teacher is out (or when the kids think the teacher’s out), some will choose otherwise.
Next:
Bill Gates has everything he wants and is one of the greatest philanthropists there ever was, as have many wealthy people who gave away most of their fortunes to the poor.
Bill Gates worked his tail off to get where he is now, as did people like Andrew Carnegie. That is what teaches people humility and the importance of caring for others.
And finally:
A man who believed he bore the “mark of the beast” used a circular saw to amputate one of his hands, cooked it in a microwave and summoned authorities, Kootenai County sheriff’s deputies say.
Of course, by that theory, we can blame Jodie Foster for
the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan.
posted by Priya Lynn on
Northdallass said “And how do they get there, Randi? By acknowledging the existence of God, by accepting the redemption of sins through Jesus, and by doing their best to follow His commandments.”.
Preposterous. The murder and torture of an innocent person does nothing to forgive the wrongs of someone else. If you committed a murder and Ashpenaz went to the police and said punish me instead, I accept responsiblity, the justice system would laugh at him – it doesn’t work that way in a moral world.
Northdallass said “They’ve already demonstrated that they have the fundamentals down. Heaven is a bit like the person who’s worked hard, saved, been frugal, and done a fine job of managing their money enjoying a comfortable retirement.”.
And those people are often punished with horrible deaths, have their life savings taken away by con men and so on. Whereas people who’ve stolen, cheated and lied oftentimes end up wealthy and living a live of leisure, clearly people aren’t necessarily rewarded for the good they do or punished for the wrongs they’ve committed and they would be if there was a just and loving god – there isn’t.
Northdallass said “Furthermore, it will be far easier to believe, behave, and do what God says when God is right there and visible to you. Right now, what we have is like a classroom full of kids; when the teacher is there, the rules become much easier to obey, but when the teacher is out (or when the kids think the teacher’s out), some will choose otherwise.”.
Then by the same token a good and loving good would be there in this life to make it easier for people to behave and do what’s right. If he can do it in the afterlife he can do it in this life. He doesn’t because he doesn’t exist.
And as to your whining that god shouldn’t give everything people ask for, fine, then how about at least providing a minimum standard of living and preventing people from being tortured, murdered, and living horrible lives of deprivation, starving to death, and so on even when they’ve been a good person? Then people wouldn’t be spoiled by getting everything they ask for and a mininum of justice would be done.
No caring omnipotent god could stand by and watch the gross injustices that play themselves over and over in this world without preventing it. Once again, only his nonexistence can excuse his lack of action.
Northdallass said “Of course, by that theory, we can blame Jodie Foster for
the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan.”.
Not even remotely the same thing. Jodie foster didn’t encourage Hinckly to believe in magic and eternal torture if he did something wrong. The bible encourages people to believe magic can take place, that any incredible thing they can conceive of can take place and encourages them to do crazy things by suggesting they will be eternally tortured if they don’t. Jesus said if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out, if your hand causes you to sin, chop it off. The bible ordered this guy to behave in this crazy manner and Christians like you were complicite in it by reinforcing the idea that the bible is the the word of a just moral and loving god giving guidance to all. Jodie foster never suggested to Hinckly that he kill Regan.
posted by Pat on
We learn from our mistakes, our setbacks, and our disasters in the same way that we learn from our successes. Parents who indulge their children in everything, cover up for all their mistakes, and ensure they never have to lift a finger for anything or suffer any hardships end up with spoiled brats.
NDT, a couple of things. First, I don’t disagree with your points here. I agree children and adults have to work for things, such as learning, getting jobs, etc. But I wasn’t talking about setbacks, such as getting an F, or getting a flat tire. I was talking about REAL tragedies.
Bad things happen, and sometimes tragic things happen. My point is that I believe that because tragic things happen to good people, God, IMO, does not possess all the 3 “omni” properties.
God knows that, and does better.
The jury is still out on that. I suspect it will be for a LONG time.
And one more thing, NDT, speaking about flat tires. Wouldn’t you know, on the way home from the hockey game, I got a flat tire. It was a nuisance. The only thing I know that was prevented is that my partner and I are settling for Chinese food ordered in, instead of picking up fried chicken. It’s nice to know I can still change a tire. So, NDT, no more posting about flat tires. 🙂
posted by Bobby on
“That’s one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read. For starters there is no loving god giving anyone anything and the idea that people need to be poor, retarded, tortured, killed, to die at birth, etc. is preposterous.”
—No it’s not, some people need to rise out of poverty, others rise over physical disabilities, ever heard of Hellen Keller? The Paris Hilton example is brilliant, she was born into wealth, she had every opportunity, and look at what she’s made of her life. So do you think she’s lucky? All that beauty but no brains or no parents to keep her under control? Still, God did bless her, she has enough money to buy herself a good shrink, she can afford to make bad choices. But frankly, I wouldn’t want to be her. As for kids born dead, well, you don’t believe in God, so perhaps death scares you. But people who do believe aren’t scared of death. A quick death can be better than a life of torture. Your expectations of God are completely unrealistic. People who get everything with little effort rarely appreciate what they have. And people who have nothing draw hope not in material possesions, which are fleeting, but in spiritual matters which are eternal. Can science compete with that? Can secularism give hope to millions? It can’t. Most people are a lot happier seeing the ten commandments posted in their courtrooms than planting a tree or celebrating earth day. So you can embrace secularism all you want, most Americans ain’t buying it.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Relative to “Priya”, I think this statement best exemplifies her mindset, and hence, her problem.
Then by the same token a good and loving good would be there in this life to make it easier for people to behave and do what’s right. If he can do it in the afterlife he can do it in this life.
Put differently, Priya’s argument is that, when a law is passed and communicated against drunk driving, if someone drinks, drives, and gets into an accident, it is society’s fault for not stationing a policeman outside every single home, business, or establishment where people might drink with a breathalyzer and instant-test equipment who will confiscate peoples’ keys until they prove they are sober enough to drive.
Normally humans go on the theory that people can tell the difference between right and wrong and can follow the law by themselves without having to have a policeman watch them every single second. Furthermore, they don’t believe that because something might not be immediately visible to them means that it doesn’t exist.
And those people are often punished with horrible deaths, have their life savings taken away by con men and so on. Whereas people who’ve stolen, cheated and lied oftentimes end up wealthy and living a live of leisure
None of which happens in heaven.
And as to your whining that god shouldn’t give everything people ask for, fine, then how about at least providing a minimum standard of living and preventing people from being tortured, murdered, and living horrible lives of deprivation, starving to death, and so on even when they’ve been a good person?
That is why God tells us to share what we have with others.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Bad things happen, and sometimes tragic things happen. My point is that I believe that because tragic things happen to good people, God, IMO, does not possess all the 3 “omni” properties.
Problem is, Pat, defining “bad” and “tragic” also depends on your individual frame of reference.
The death of a loved one in their sleep might be bad and tragic — until you compared it to a death from horrible cancer that would have happened had they lived six months longer.
Case in point:
The only thing I know that was prevented is that my partner and I are settling for Chinese food ordered in, instead of picking up fried chicken.
That’s right, Pat, that’s all you know.
But we’re talking about God, who is not only aware of what you’re planning to do, but who sees the long-term consequences of every decision you could possibly make.
Do you think you might have a different perspective on what is and isn’t benevolent if you looked at matters in that fashion?
posted by Pat on
Problem is, Pat, defining “bad” and “tragic” also depends on your individual frame of reference.
Of course.
The death of a loved one in their sleep might be bad and tragic — until you compared it to a death from horrible cancer that would have happened had they lived six months longer.
If the person lived a long, full life, and die in their sleep, as opposed to suffering for six months before dying, I agree. Again, I’m talking about tragedies in which a young person or child has died.
That’s right, Pat, that’s all you know.
But we’re talking about God, who is not only aware of what you’re planning to do, but who sees the long-term consequences of every decision you could possibly make.
The flat tire took about 20 minutes to change. And I had to wait about 45 minutes this morning to get the tire repaired. Not bad, just a bit of an inconvenience.
I don’t know exactly how things would be different had I not had the flat tire. Maybe I would have gotten into a bad accident. Or maybe something good would have happened. Or most likely, things would be pretty balanced, except for the minor inconvenience of dealing with the flat.
If God caused the flat in order to prevent me from being in a bad accident, then I am grateful. But the point is, if God was able to cause the flat, he would clearly have the power to prevent the bad accident as well. And again, for all I know, I might have missed out on something really good. So if I had the choice, I really would have just preferred to not have the damn flat tire to begin with.
As for the nature of God, here’s the thing. None of us know for sure if God really exists. There are three possibilities. 1) God exists, and it will be proved. 2) God does not exist, and it will be proved. 3) It will never be proved whether God exists or not. That’s all we know.
I happen to believe in the existence of God. My only “proof” of God is that there is something instead of absolute nothingness, and it makes sense to me that this is the result of some Entity. So besides this not being close to being irrefutable proof, even if I’m right, we still have NO idea what the nature of God is. One can believe and “know” in their heart exactly what God is. But it’s not proof, and only faith. And the problem is that there are people of different Christian sects and non-Christians who are just as sure about the nature of God, and we still have dozens of different answers. Not everybody can be correct, right?
So none of us really know if God knows what we are planning to do and if God sees the long-term consequences of every decision one can possibly make, let alone if God is omnibenevolent, whatever benevolence might mean to God.
posted by Priya Lynn on
Northdallass said “Put differently, Priya’s argument is that, when a law is passed and communicated against drunk driving, if someone drinks, drives, and gets into an accident, it is society’s fault for not stationing a policeman outside every single home, business, or establishment where people might drink with a breathalyzer and instant-test equipment who will confiscate peoples’ keys until they prove they are sober enough to drive.”.
There you go lying again. “put differently” as you say, is something entirely different from what I actually did say. Unlike humans your god is supposed to be omnipotent and he supposedly can be everywhere to guide people on earth just as you suggest he should do in heaven. If its good for good to guide people in one location its good for him to guide people in the other. He doesn’t because he doesn’t exist.
Northdallass said ” God tells us to share what we have with others.”.
And you don’t so you obviously don’t really take this religion business seriously. Jesus said to give everything you have to the poor, you haven’t because you are a liar when you say you are a Christian.
Northdallass said “They’ve already demonstrated that they have the fundamentals down. Heaven is a bit like the person who’s worked hard, saved, been frugal, and done a fine job of managing their money enjoying a comfortable retirement.”.
I replied “And those people are often punished with horrible deaths, have their life savings taken away by con men and so on. Whereas people who’ve stolen, cheated and lied oftentimes end up wealthy and living a live of leisure, clearly people aren’t necessarily rewarded for the good they do or punished for the wrongs they’ve committed.”
Northdallass then said “None of which happens in heaven”.
You’re missing the point. If its appropriate to reward people for doing good and punish them for doing wrong its appropriate to do that regardless of where they dwell, heaven or earth. Your god doesn’t do this on earth because he’s either evil or as well all know in our hearts, he does not exist.
posted by Priya Lynn on
Pat said “Bad things happen, and sometimes tragic things happen. My point is that I believe that because tragic things happen to good people, God, IMO, does not possess all the 3 “omni” properties.”
Northdallass replied “Problem is, Pat, defining “bad” and “tragic” also depends on your individual frame of reference.
The death of a loved one in their sleep might be bad and tragic — until you compared it to a death from horrible cancer that would have happened had they lived six months longer.”.
LOL, that’s almost as dumb as bobby’s statement. You’re suggesting that god causes them to die in their sleep to save them from a horrible cancer death, preposterous when god is supposed to easily be able to prevent both. Plenty of people die horrible deaths from cancer or are tortured to death in third world dictatorships. They most certainly could have lived peaceful and full lives dying in their sleep and that would be much much less tragic. That your god does not see to it that this happens shows that either he does not exist, or that he does not care about the suffering and pain of good people.
posted by Priya Lynn on
I said “For starters there is no loving god giving anyone anything and the idea that people need to be poor, retarded, tortured, killed, to die at birth, etc. is preposterous.”
Bobby replied “No it’s not, some people need to rise out of poverty, others rise over physical disabilities, ever heard of Hellen Keller?”.
That’s just stupid Bobby, the vast majority of people aren’t Hellen Keller, and even with her, how exactly was her learning to merely mitigate blindness and defeness better than not being blind and deaf in the first place?! That boy that was killed for wearing makeup and high heels to school most certainly didn’t “get what he needed”. The Christian aid workers in Afghanastan who were skinned alive most certainly didn’t “get what they needed”. The people who die young suffering horribly from cancer most certainly didn’t “get what they needed”. Get your head out of your ass Bobby. The vast majority of people who suffer don’t get anything good out of it that surpasses the deprivation the suffering caused in the first place. I had my house broken into and all of my possessions stolen – I certainly didn’t “get what I needed”.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
There you go lying again. “put differently” as you say, is something entirely different from what I actually did say. Unlike humans your god is supposed to be omnipotent and he supposedly can be everywhere to guide people on earth just as you suggest he should do in heaven. If its good for good to guide people in one location its good for him to guide people in the other.
And again, by that logic, society is remiss if it doesn’t park a traffic control officer in the front seat of every single car on the road to guide the driver and make sure they follow the rules.
God gives us the guidebook and rules of the road, then sits back and watches if we follow them.
Any child can be good while the teacher is watching. But God is more interested in whether or not you behave when you’re NOT being watched — or, more precisely, when you think you’re not being watched.
What you are claiming, Priya, is that a child who is told not to do something, then, when the teacher goes out of their sight but where the teacher can see them, deliberately disobeys, can blame the teacher/parent/whomever, saying, “It’s not my fault, you didn’t supervise me enough and stop me from doing this bad thing”.
And you don’t so you obviously don’t really take this religion business seriously.
(snickers) Boy, you just destroyed what little credibility you had with a whole lot of other people who know a) who I am and b) what I’ve been doing for the past several years.
posted by Pat on
God gives us the guidebook and rules of the road, then sits back and watches if we follow them.
Any child can be good while the teacher is watching. But God is more interested in whether or not you behave when you’re NOT being watched — or, more precisely, when you think you’re not being watched.
NDT, you do realize you have absolutely no proof that is the case. It’s a decent enough supposition though. But honestly, and I can’t explain it, I just find it creepy.
And keep in mind, if what you say is true, and because it is something you surmised, then you KNOW you are ALWAYS being watched by God. Is that what keeps you in line? If somehow, you found out that God did not exist, would you change your moral fiber?
posted by Priya Lynn on
Northdallass said “And again, by that logic, society is remiss if it doesn’t park a traffic control officer in the front seat of every single car on the road to guide the driver and make sure they follow the rules.”.
No, its not the same, you’re suggesting humans have the same abilities as your supposed omnipotent god. Your god according to you is capable of supervising all humans at all times, humans by their limited nature are not capable of this so it isn’t reasonable to suggest that they do, but it IS reasonable to suggest that your omnipotent god supervise all humans at all times especially if as you say he’s going to do that in heaven to keep people well behaved. If your god is going to watch people closely in heaven to assure they’re good he has no excuse not to do it on earth as well. If an action is righteous and well advised in one location its righteous and well-advised in another location. Morality isn’t geographically relative.
Northdallass said “(snickers) Boy, you just destroyed what little credibility you had with a whole lot of other people who know a) who I am and b) what I’ve been doing for the past several years.”.
LOL, we’re the ones laughing. We know who you are and what you’ve been doing for the past several years – lying, demonizing, and attacking innocent gays. You are totally devoid of credibility and its obvious to all you don’t take this religion business seriously, you just use it as an excuse to bash innocent gays.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Morality isn’t geographically relative.
Oh, but to you, it IS, Priya.
Because you state that, if a person is not being watched and they do something disobedient when they’ve been told not to do it, it’s not their fault; it’s the fault of other people for not supervising them more closely and making it “easier” for them to obey.
Life is, as I said above, like a classroom full of kids when the teacher has stepped out of their sight for a minute to test their behavior. The kids who stay in their seats and behave as they are told without the teacher being visible to them will be rewarded when the teacher comes back; the kids who disobey the minute the teacher is out of sight will be removed and put somewhere that is far more restrictive.
You choose not to behave and obey; instead, you whine and cry about how you shouldn’t be held responsible and how it’s the teacher’s fault for not making it “easier” to follow the rules by staying put.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
And keep in mind, if what you say is true, and because it is something you surmised, then you KNOW you are ALWAYS being watched by God. Is that what keeps you in line? If somehow, you found out that God did not exist, would you change your moral fiber?
That depends on how you define it, Pat.
If, for instance, you knew that doing something would upset your parents and hurt their feelings, would that keep you in line? Or would it require that you receive some sort of direct punishment in order to do it?
And as for your last question, that doesn’t really make sense. If there was no God, there would be no moral fiber to speak of, other than “do what feels good”.
posted by Priya Lynn on
I said “Morality isn’t geographically relative.”
Northdallass replied “Oh, but to you, it IS, Priya.”.
No, it most certainly is not – stop lying about what I think – you don’t speak for me.
Northdallass said “you state that, if a person is not being watched and they do something disobedient when they’ve been told not to do it, it’s not their fault;”
I never said any such thing – you’re a liar. You stated that god can’t give people everything they ask for because it would make them bad people. I pointed out that this is exactly what you say heaven is like so it can’t be that way because heaven would make people bad. You said that in heaven god is right there to watch over people and prevent them from doing bad so that is not a problem. If its good for god to do that in heaven its good for him to do it on earth. The only reasons why he wouldn’t is that either he wants evil to exist or he himself does not exist – you can’t have it any other way.
Your claim that this would be like asking there to be a policeman in everyone’s car is absurd because that’s beyond the ability of humans to do and policemen are not guaranteed to be moral in the first place but your god is supposed to be omnipotent, nothing is supposed to be beyond his ability and he’s supposed to be the perfect judge of morality. The only reason for him to allow evil is because he wants it to exist, he is evil himself. Or as we both know deep inside, there is no such thing as god.
Northdallass said “If there was no God, there would be no moral fiber to speak of, other than “do what feels good”.
An obviously false statement, there is moral fibre in the world and there is no god, clearly god is not required for there to be morality. “Doing what feels good” is limited by our need to cooperate and reach agreement with others in the world. We must have consideration for others in order to get along in a world which requires mutual support. That is why we have morality.
posted by Pat on
If, for instance, you knew that doing something would upset your parents and hurt their feelings, would that keep you in line? Or would it require that you receive some sort of direct punishment in order to do it?
I’m not sure what you are getting at. I’m 43, so I don’t do everything my parents tell me to do any more. I know they would be upset if I got a tattoo. I don’t want one, but if I did, I don’t think I would let my parents’ hurt feelings stop me. And certainly if they were upset about me having a relationship with a man, that wouldn’t stop me either. I’m sure I’ve done things they were upset about and vice versa. But we’re all adults now and we have to decide what we think is right and what we think is best.
And as for your last question, that doesn’t really make sense. If there was no God, there would be no moral fiber to speak of, other than “do what feels good”.
You see, I find that hard to believe, NDT. I really doubt that you need the existence of God to be a good person, and would be surprised if that was the case. Let’s go back to your teacher watching analogy. Suppose God really does exist and (somehow) He tricked you into believing that He doesn’t exist. (Now stay with me on this. God pulled a lot of stuff on Job in the Bible and all, so this isn’t too implausible, right?) So during this time God is going to “step out of your sight” and see how you now behave. Now, remember at this point your mindset is that God does not exist and this is not a drill. Do you simply “do what feels good”?
Whether God exists or not, I believe this is what happened. Various cultures and groups figured out that for the benefit of society, some morals and rules were needed. So people wrote things down along with some stories too. To add teeth to it, these rules and morals were purported to be from God. Oh, keep in mind that different cultures had different stories and not exactly the same rules and morals. And for what I know, these things worked. As time went on, the rules and morals changed gradually to account for changing times, growing populations, and different circumstances. The rules about eating pork are gone. No one feels necessary to sacrifice animals or virgins or whatever to God any more. Our laws have followed these traditions, and have been changed to fit the times so that society receives greater benefit from it. This is where I moral fiber comes from. This happens whether or not God exists. How do I know that? Because there is no proof yet of the existence or God or the nature of God if He does exist.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
You’re missing a part, Priya.
I pointed out that heaven will be filled with people who have already demonstrated that they can handle responsibility. Having everything they need in heaven is their reward for being responsible, just like, in my example, the kids who did as the teacher asked even though they couldn’t see the teacher.
The parable of the talents in Matthew 25 is the best example, where, as it is made clear, those who have been faithful in the little things even when not obviously watched are rewarded with greater and grander things.
I never said any such thing – you’re a liar.
You said exactly that. Never once do you hold anyone accountable for their own behavior. You blame God for allegedly “not being there”, rather than for the person choosing to act evilly.
God knows the spoiled and wicked children who have no intention of behaving themselves will show themselves if they don’t think He’s around. And like the teacher who returns to the class unexpectedly and catches the miscreants writing on the walls, out of their desks, and screaming, He will simply point out where they are and ask them why they aren’t doing what He asked them to do.
But of course, your answer will be to scream back that it’s HIS fault, because He didn’t make it obvious that He was watching you and that’s why you went ahead and disobeyed Him.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
I’m not sure what you are getting at.
What I’m getting at, Pat, is that Christianity is a balance of coercive and empathetic motivations.
If you’re only doing things because you’re scared of being punished, that’s one thing. But if you’re doing things, even if they might not always be what’s easiest or most pleasant, because you love and care about another person and know that this will please them, that’s quite another. The former is where you start, but the latter is where you end up, the “Don’t touch the stove” becoming “I worry about you burning yourself, because that would really hurt me too” as one grows in knowledge and understanding and maturity.
So during this time God is going to “step out of your sight” and see how you now behave. Now, remember at this point your mindset is that God does not exist and this is not a drill. Do you simply “do what feels good”?
Actually, Pat, it’s interesting that you mention Job, because that’s exactly what God appeared to Job to be doing. And in fact, Job was surrounded by people who were encouraging him to curse God, to reject God, to see that God didn’t exist.
But he didn’t.
And, as the old axiom goes, the measure of a man’s character is not how he behaves when everyone is watching, but how he behaves when they’re not.
posted by Priya Lynn on
Northdallass said “You said exactly that”. (that its not someone’s fault if they’re disobedient and no one’s watching)
I most certainly did not – you’re a liar.
Northdallass said “I pointed out that heaven will be filled with people who have already demonstrated that they can handle responsibility.”.
Not true, according to your myth many of the people in heaven will have died young or even as babies long before they demonstrated that they can handle responsiblity. As well, just because someone has behaved in a certain way in the past is no assurance that they will in the future. You said yourself that that people who get whatever they want will become bad people and the only reason this doesn’t happen in heaven is that god is closely monitoring them so they don’t.
A loving and just god would not allow the horrible evil that happens to good people all the time. If its good to reward people for the good they do and punish them for the wrongs its good to do that regardless of whether they are on heaven or earth. Tsunamis, hurricanes, murder, etc. are indiscrimninate and punish they bad with the good. The only reason this can happen is if your god likes evil, or if he does not exist – you cannot have it any other way.
posted by Priya Lynn on
Northdallass said “And, as the old axiom goes, the measure of a man’s character is not how he behaves when everyone is watching, but how he behaves when they’re not.”.
Given that you lie and attack innocent people when we are watching I shudder to think what you do when no one is watching. I wouldn’t be surprised if you had an eight year old chained up in your basement to molest.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
And again, Priya, you confuse loving and just with spoiling.
Under your logic, parents who do not give their children everything they want are neither loving or just.
Under your logic, parents who do not allow their children to do whatever they want without consequences are not loving or just.
Under your logic, parents who allow their children to learn from mistakes and tragedies, rather than covering up everything for them, are not loving or just.
The reason we have sin and evil in the world, Priya, is because the first humans made the choice to do what they wanted instead of obeying God. There were no storms, sicknesses, disasters, or whatnot in the Garden of Eden; those came because humanity could not be bothered to keep the simplest of rules, and had to face the consequences for it.
Why is pretty obvious. Your spirit of the spoiled child is obvious in Genesis, where Eve tries to blame the serpent, then Adam tries to blame God for creating Eve in the first place. As God points out, none of those excuses are valid; both Adam and Eve chose to disobey, and because of it, humanity is subject to death, evil, and destruction.
But instead of barring humanity forever, God gives it a second chance; if you believe that Jesus came to save your sins and that He by His own sacrifice of Himself pays the penalty you deserve, then Eden will be yours again once this earthly life passes. And in Eden, we will once again walk with God, talk with God, see God everywhere in a way that we do not here on earth.
posted by Priya Lynn on
Northdallass said “And again, Priya, you confuse loving and just with spoiling. Under your logic, parents who do not give their children everything they want are neither loving or just.”.
No, you’ve got it wrong again. I never said a loving and just god would give people everything they asked for, what I said was that a loving and just god would provide a minimum standard of living and prevent unjust suffering, torture, death and the like. Its you who conflated that with giving people everything they want.
By your good parent analogy a couple would be good parents if they let their children torture and kill each other because to intervene would be to prevent them from learning from mistakes and tragedies. No one would consider someone a good parent who didn’t intervene to prevent their child from coming to or causing serious harm or death yet that is exactly what you claim your “loving almighty father” is doing. Its preposterous.
Northdallass said “The reason we have sin and evil in the world, Priya, is because the first humans made the choice to do what they wanted instead of obeying God. There were no storms, sicknesses, disasters, or whatnot in the Garden of Eden;”.
LOL, that’s such a joke! Humans don’t have the ability to cause Tsunamis, earthquakes, etc. If you want to claim there is a god then no one is responsible for it but him. Your god does not distinguish between the good and the bad, all are equally punished by the natural disasters he causes or fails to prevent. Your omniscient god created people imperfectly knowing they would sin and be evil, by your theology only your god can be held responsible for the way people are and the evil that is in the world. If your god existed truly wanted the world to be free of evil it would be. Either he does not want it to be free of evil, he is not omnipotent as you claim or he does not exist – you can’t have it any other way.
Northdallass said “Why is pretty obvious. Your spirit of the spoiled child is obvious in Genesis, where Eve tries to blame the serpent, then Adam tries to blame God for creating Eve in the first place. As God points out, none of those excuses are valid; both Adam and Eve chose to disobey, and because of it, humanity is subject to death, evil, and destruction.”.
SOOO much wrong with that…Adam and eve didn’t have the knowledge of right and wrong before they ate from the tree of knowledge so they didn’t know it was wrong to disobey god. Only god can be held to blame for their disobedience as he created them that way. And once again you have your god punishing innocent people, all of humanity for the supposed wrong of Adam and Eve. That is the height of evil and you know it. Its NEVER right to punish an innocent person for the wrongs of another and yet this is once again the foundation of your sick and perverted religion.
And further, your previous assertion that the people in heaven aren’t spoiled by getting everything they want because they’ve already demonstrated they can handle the responsiblity is contradicted by Christian dogma. Not only are babies and people who died too young to have proven themselves supposedly in heaven, so are horrific sinners who have proven themselves not to be able to handle the responsibility. According to Christian dogma all manner of evil sinners can go to heaven because if they repent they are forgiven their sins and welcomed in. According to Christians Hitler is in heaven if he repented from his sins. Once again, your assertion that god doesn’t give people everything they want because it will make them bad is disproven.
posted by Pat on
Actually, Pat, it’s interesting that you mention Job, because that’s exactly what God appeared to Job to be doing. And in fact, Job was surrounded by people who were encouraging him to curse God, to reject God, to see that God didn’t exist.
But he didn’t.
Okay, so Job passed the test.
And, as the old axiom goes, the measure of a man’s character is not how he behaves when everyone is watching, but how he behaves when they’re not.
Fair enough. Now, if you would, answer the hypothetical question I posed above.
So during this time God is going to “step out of your sight” and see how you now behave. Now, remember at this point your mindset is that God does not exist and this is not a drill. Do you simply “do what feels good”?
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
No, you’ve got it wrong again. I never said a loving and just god would give people everything they asked for, what I said was that a loving and just god would provide a minimum standard of living and prevent unjust suffering, torture, death and the like. Its you who conflated that with giving people everything they want.
Nice try, but that was you changing your story halfway through.
By your good parent analogy a couple would be good parents if they let their children torture and kill each other because to intervene would be to prevent them from learning from mistakes and tragedies.
If they themselves knew that death was not the end, but a gateway to something better, and that the child who was dead on earth would be enjoying the fruits of heaven, then they would have God’s perspective on the matter.
Moreover, haven’t you yourself, Randi, claimed that the world “would be a better place” if some people died? You yourself fully and publicly state that certain people should be erased from the planet, but you criticize God for allowing it to happen?
SOOO much wrong with that…Adam and eve didn’t have the knowledge of right and wrong before they ate from the tree of knowledge so they didn’t know it was wrong to disobey god.
Of course they knew; God told them not to do it.
But again, the spoiled Priya steps up to whine and complain that it’s God’s fault for humans disobeying His commands and having to face the consequences, just as the spoiled and disobedient child whines that the teacher leaving the room is to blame for her misbehavior.
According to Christian dogma all manner of evil sinners can go to heaven because if they repent they are forgiven their sins and welcomed in. According to Christians Hitler is in heaven if he repented from his sins.
Absolutely.
That is because what is required is, as I pointed out, accepting that there is a God, that you are a sinner and not worthy of God’s mercy, and then accepting that Jesus was willing to sacrifice Himself for your sins.
You see, Priya, you can’t do that; that would require you to admit that there is a higher authority than your own, that you do make mistakes and take responsibility for them, and that someone loved you enough to sacrifice himself for you.
posted by Pat on
The reason we have sin and evil in the world, Priya, is because the first humans made the choice to do what they wanted instead of obeying God. There were no storms, sicknesses, disasters, or whatnot in the Garden of Eden; those came because humanity could not be bothered to keep the simplest of rules, and had to face the consequences for it.
Yikes! I have to say, NDT, I have trouble with this passage of the Bible. If God caused all these calamities to innocents because Adam and Eve didn’t follow a simple rule, that’s seems pretty cruel to me. Besides, no one was there to witness the Garden of Eve story. So I think it’s just best to think that it didn’t really happen, it’s a metaphor or something, because that wouldn’t be too cool.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
Then inexorable fate is pretty cruel too, Pat, when you think about it.
Mary Mallon, aka Typhoid Mary, infected 47 people and killed three because she wouldn’t stop working as a cook.
The Bhopal disaster, which killed roughly 3,000 people, was due to humans choosing not to follow rules (either maintenance or sabotage, depending on where you look).
And of course, 9/11 was the result of a few people deciding to deliberately disobey and killing thousands of people in the process.
In all these cases, people could have followed the rules and saved lives. They didn’t. Same thing with the Garden of Eden; Adam and Eve knew they weren’t supposed to do something, knew there was a punishment, and went ahead and did it anyway.
It’s not about God being cruel. It’s about God choosing to allow people to exercise their free will and accept the consequences.
posted by Pat on
NDT, I agree bad things happen when people don’t follow rules. And innocent people get hurt and die. Bad things happen when people follow the rules too.
So what are you saying? Not only did God punish Adam and Eve for not following a rule, everybody else had to pay for it. Sorry, that is cruel. But like I said, I doubt the Adam and Eve story is true, and I suspect you have your doubts too.