My grandmother, then a 16-year-old Polish Jew, came to America in 1910 and never looked back. Neither did her son, despite vestigial anti-Semitism early in what became a flourishing legal career. Nor did I, her grandson-not, at least, on account of being Jewish. The experience of anti-Semitism has been as unknown to me in the United States as it was ubiquitous to my European forebears.
To be an American homosexual, however, is more complicated. Few of us feel or want to feel anything but American; but many of us, perhaps most, have at one time or another looked envyingly at Europe.
Belgium, the Netherlands and Spain allow gay marriage (as do Canada and South Africa). Seven European countries offer nationally recognized civil unions, which are almost the same as marriage, and five offer domestic-partner status. The United States, by contrast, allows same-sex couples to marry in a single, relatively small state: Massachusetts. A few other states offer civil unions or domestic-partner programs. Most states, however, ban same-sex marriage and, often, civil unions.
The federal government in Washington affords no recognition of same-sex couples at all. Heterosexual Americans can obtain residency for their foreign partners for the price of a $25 marriage license; countless gay Americans cannot get residency for their partners at any price. To stay together, more than a few same-sex couples live in exile abroad-often in Europe.
The litany goes on. Nineteen European countries-plus Australia, Canada, Israel, New Zealand and South Africa-allow homosexuals to serve openly in their armed forces; America joins Cuba, Iran, North Korea and Saudi Arabia (among others) in banning gay military service. No less important, millions of Americans, particularly but by no means only on the religious right, continue to anathematize homosexuality and campaign for public policies that do the same. In much of Europe, by contrast, homosexuality is just not very controversial. In America, gay people have achieved a large measure of toleration and respect, but being noncontroversial-well, that seems far beyond our reach.
Yet, despite all that, America has some cause for pride, straight as well as gay. To say America is "behind" Europe on gay equality is to overlook that America's coming to terms with homosexuality is a very different kind of project than Europe's, because America is a very different kind of place. In Europe, acceptance of homosexuality is by and large an afterthought in the larger movement toward modernization and secularism. Europe, though more religious than the common U.S. stereotype allows, is decidedly less pious than America-and homosexuality, though condemned by the Abrahamic faiths, poses no conflict at all with secular modernity. If gay people are stable, productive, law-abiding citizens, what could anyone have against them?
Much of Europe has also embraced what American observers sometimes call a deinstitutionalized view of the family, in which all kinds of family structures enjoy equal claim on public recognition and social resources. Marriage, in such settings, is increasingly a mere formality. Children in Denmark and Sweden, for example, are less likely than American kids to be raised by married couples. Yet Danish and Swedish children are more likely to be raised by both their parents. Something other than marriage is the glue holding these Northern European families together. In a post-marital culture, same-sex marriage looks like a lifestyle choice, not a threat.
In short, Europe is dissolving many of the traditions that make homosexuality seem morally and socially problematic. America is not. America has embarked on a harder, perhaps more ambitious, project, which is to reconcile homosexuality with traditional moral scruples and social structures.
The United States is a country of immigrants, of transients, of ethnic diversity. Identity comes less from language, ancestry and birthplace than from creed, community and culture. Americans tend to understand who they are in terms of what they believe and who they believe it with. Millions ground themselves in the Bible, in faith communities or in generations-old unwritten norms, which is why so-called "social issues" like homosexuality and abortion are so central to U.S. politics (mystifyingly so, from a European point of view). This may be good, it may be not so good, but it is a fact, probably a necessary fact in so fluid and diverse a society.
And therefore it is also a fact that America cannot just "outgrow" or "move beyond" its conflicts over homosexuality. America will have to reach a new understanding with homosexuality, one that squares it with the claims of both civic equality and social tradition.
For gay Americans, the bad news is that this reconciliation is a difficult and slow process, the work of generations. The good news is that the work is proceeding apace, faster than I once believed possible.
I was born in 1960, a time when homosexuals were America's vampires: pale, sinister creatures with warped souls and insatiable appetites who lurked in a nighttime underworld and sucked society's lifeblood. The AIDS crisis of the 1980s and early 90s, terrible though it was, helped transform us to mortals. The country saw us bleed and die; it watched as we cared for each other when too often even our own relatives would not. Now, as same-sex love and commitment-to each other and to children-comes front and center, the country is starting to see us as families.
Just a decade ago, same-sex marriage was a nutty joke, a contradiction in terms. Today (according to recent polling by the Pew Research Center) more than a third of Americans support it, and a majority support civil unions. Millions of Americans have come to accept the dignity and morality of homosexual love and commitment, even if they have trouble with gay sex per se. No less important, most gay and straight Americans who support same-sex marriage do so because they believe in marriage, not because they want to dethrone it.
Those who dismiss America as "behind" Europe on social issues often fail to appreciate where America is coming from, and how far it has traveled. Where gay equality is concerned, you can call the United States the most laggard of major secular societies; or you can call it the most progressive of great traditionalist cultures. Or, most accurately, you can say it continues to go its own way by working out how to be both at once. Whatever you call it, I would not trade it.
62 Comments for “America’s Unique Gay Mission”
posted by Charles Wilson on
I think the U.S. has actually led the way. Europe is a follower in this area. It doesn’t appear that way, because once the Europeans decide to move they catch up fast.
posted by Regan DuCasse on
Rauch’s cultural analysis of what has created communities in America. He’s right about our transience and the things that unify a community, if it’s not one’s clan, it’s one’s religious community.
The thing is, homosexuality transcends ALL of that. It’s a human condition universal to all human life. This is not a new thing to confront.
As he says, being a law abiding productive and conscientious citizen should be enough for our fellow citizens here. Indeed, individual accomplishment and individualism has been a benchmark of being American, where many other cultures are definitively more conformist.
Being productive and law abiding is NOT in conflict with being gay.
However, what our country is doing is, as gays and lesbians ARE making themselves honestly and openly available to their families and neighbors, the reaction is to push back with civil laws that are anathema to the mission statement of the country itself AND it’s governmental roots.
Especially regarding self sufficiency and enabling personal responsibility. Which is what getting married and supporting one’s responsibilities is all about.
Our government is working AGAINST gay people to do that.
In fact, not since slavery, have laws been created or implemented to KEEP citizens from attending to their spouses and children through marriage.
I tend to argue the case for marriage between gay people on that reason alone.
Most of all because there is a great deal of difference between being justified and rationalizing the opposition to it.
And the opposition inevitably becomes hypocritical or contradictory or both. Especially for the aforementioned reasons, that of personal responsibility and the freedom to attend to it.
And most importantly because it hasn’t come at the expense of what heterosexual citizens can do for themselves.
posted by Ashpenaz on
My image of the gay lifestyle is going to church, going to 4th of July, going to the grocery store, etc., and maybe meeting a guy. Then, we go to coffee, and maybe develop a friendship. We go out for awhile, then we meet with the pastor and plan a wedding ceremony. Then, we take our vows in front of God, our friends, our family. Then we buy a house, have or adopt children, and settle down.
Oh, and we only have sex with each other.
I was born in 1960, and I’ve spent much of my life trying to articulate that dream to my gay friends. Their attitude has been one of shock and in general they’ve tried to free me from my shackles. I remember one of my high school friends–a guy who made money standing on a certain downtown corner and servicing guys who drove by–reading to me from John Rechy’s Numbers. Oh, and he also dressed like David Bowie. He told me all the stories from the bars in Iowa City hoping to convince me to jump in with him. He was an alcoholic, a drug addict, and he got beaten up by his partners. And the gay community thought I was the wierd one!
Because I had nowhere to go and no support in the gay community for my values, I chose to live in the Reparative Therapy paradigm for 25 years. I didn’t have sex, and I believed that if I played softball with the guys I’d be cured. I do admit that I met some terrific men–men with values, men who were committed to their families. Men like me–except straight.
I realized a few years ago that I wasn’t going to change, but I wanted to live according to my values and the values of the men I respected and admired–the men with wisdom, maturity, self-control, and compassion–none of whom were gay.
So, I started reading about gay marriage. That’s who I am. That’s what I want. But it is still not part of the gay subculture as a whole who seem stuck in the David Bowie/John Rechy paradigm, especially in urban areas. There is still no place at the table for gays, like me, who want to get married and settle down. I’m waiting for the “Gay Marriage” issues of the Advocate and Out. I think those issues are due out just after their “Old and Fat is Fun!” issues.
posted by Richard on
America has certainly made important progress across the board — race, religion, ethnicty, class, disabiity, sex, sexuality.
Another factor in comparision is that (1) western Europeans tend to have more political rights then Americans and (2) tend to have something equal or similar to a national election.
We do not have national elections in the US (thus national opinion polls have limited impact) and we have few political rights.
posted by Richard on
Also, the notion that their is “no place” for LGBT people (in urban centers) as described by previous poster is simply wrong.
You can certainly find LGBT people with various relationship goals, hobbies, interests, politics, values, backgrounds as you can straight people in urban, rural or suburbian settings.
posted by John Johnson on
I think you are overstating the religiosity of the American people. Sure, compared to Northern Europe the U.S. is a hotbed of religious zealotry, but only about half of Americans are truly religious in the traditional sense. The secular half is the part that largely supports respect for gays. Of the religious half, only a minority can be called progressive and tolerant of gays – some mainline Protestants, some Catholics, and hardly any Baptists.
I also think you are overstating the secularism of Europeans by the way. Much of Europe (especially the South and East) is very conservative and unprogressive, as evidenced by attitudes towards immigration and “foreigners.” The biggest difference between American society and European society is Europe is a shade more elitist. That is, European laws have a slightly greater tendency to reflect the attitudes of the educated and well-off, and therefore the secular. I believe this is an effect of parliamentarian democracy, in which people vote for parties and programmes that are subsequently negotiated in smoky back rooms by wannabe coalition politicians, out of sight of the public.
But anyway, it is a greater sign of positive change to see attitudes changing in the U.S., where the broad popular will is catching up to the attitudes of the “elites,” in favor of respect for their fellow human beings.
posted by Charles Wilson on
Ashpenaz, I’m going to make a deal here. I’m going to agree that you’re better than most other gay people. In one way or another, that is what you’ve been telling us. You want to be crowned, and I’m going to do it. But there’s a cost, which is that I am also going to expect more of you. In particular, I’m going to expect you to be a more rational thinker than the great unwashed. I’m holding you to higher standards.
In that vein, I want you to know that you’ve already failed my expectations by falling prey to the fallacy of composition, which says it’s erroneous to impute to a whole group the features of its constituents.
A hustler cited John Rechy in his defense, and apparently you encountered some other people who took his side. (Whether you actually encountered anyone who did so is open to doubt, but for now I’ll accept your claim.) As a result, you tell us that “the gay community” thought you were “the weird one.”
Actually, Ashpenaz, a subset of people thought that, or more likely this is what you’ve imputed to a mixture of phenomena that you’ve organized in your own idioc=syncratic way. Which, no doubt, involves another fallacy.
What surprises me is that you’re writing things like this at the age of 47 or 48. As I’ve read your postings over the past couple of months I’ve assumed you were a teenager struggling to come to terms with your sexuality. But no. I think it’s a little far along in the game to be making such basic logical mistakes.
Find a guy and settle down, Ash. They’re out there. This isn’t the gay community’s issue. It’s yours.
posted by Carl on
#1 I think we underestimate just how many of the rights and limited acceptance we have now will be taken away if a Republican wins the White House and appoints new Supreme Court justices. Homophobic rulings have a chilling effect. Just look at the effects of Bowers v Hardwick on so many parts of life for gays and lesbians.
#2 From what I can tell, America is much more liberal on gay adoption than some European countries. I do wonder if that will last.
posted by Ashpenaz on
I’m sure it’s the case I’m going through a long-delayed adolescence in my struggle to come to terms with my sexuality. But at least I’m trying to grow up and be a man unlike, say, Elton John, George Michael, Daniel Craig, Andrew Sullivan, Nathan Lane, et. al., all or whom are my age or older, and who have all decided to remain perpetually adolescent.
posted by Harke Ploegstra on
I fail to see the point of this article. If it is to prove that the US is in any way ahead of countries like the Netherlands or Belgium in terms of acceptability it fails markedly.
Perhaps you have yet to learn that legal and traditional/religious emancipation necessarily go together.
The U.S. are a very large country, so it stands to reason that this would slow progress down. However, how many of your states grant homosexuals the same rights as they have in Holland?
posted by Karen on
Yes, Ashpenaz, your mixture of self-aggrandizing and self-pitying is getting rather old.
You’re a regular guy with regular values. Well congratulations on not being a prostitute or drug dealer or slut!
Your disgust with the gay community rings false to anyone who pays the slightest attention. Sorry to break it to you, since I know how much you enjoy feeling superior, but the majority of gay people – including commentors on IGF – are regular people just like you, and most people are fighting for the right to get married and live their lives without fear – not for the right to debauchery and immorality.
I’m sorry if you have trouble finding friends and dates who aren’t jerks. It’s rough all over.
posted by Karen on
Perpetual adolescence?
What about straight rock stars and actors? How many of them seem stuck in adolescence?
And what about all the nice gay rock stars and actors? Maybe you need to rethink who you use as role models. I like Neil Patrick Harris and Portia De Rossi myself.
posted by Harke Ploegstra on
My last comment may have sounded overly harsh. The article isn?t half bad. That gay emancipation moves along different lines in the US than it does in Europe is certainly true.
What you do need to bear in mind is that tolerance towards LGTBs will ebb and flow with the times. The only long term hope that you can have for the social acceptability of homosexuality is to have equal rights for gays nailed down in the law. Everything else is idle fancy. The present US laws do not protect LGTBs adequately from unjust discrimination.
If LGTBs are not granted their civil rights, tolerance towards us will go the way of the assumption that criminals are ?victims of society?.
posted by Charles Wilson on
Ashpenaz, gay people who live uneventful lives are not news. You are not going to change Elton John. Work on yourself.
posted by kittynboi on
How exactly is Andrew Sullivan perpetually adolescent?
posted by Jimbo on
I’m going to have to disagree with Carl. Gay rights won’t be swept away if a Republican wins the White House. The Bowers vs. Hardwick decision was law for only 17 years. It was overturned in 2003 by a Supreme Court with a majority of justices (including the opinion’s author) installed by Republicans. If the strength of the gay rights movement is going to depend on which party occupies the White House, we are in sorry shape. Look ahead to the upcoming generation: soldly pro-gay. Our success is feeding on itself (the more people come out, the more voters will be supportive & thus more people come out as a result). History (& time) is on our side. It may not be moving forward as quickly as we like, but there’s been no backsliding. Eventually we will prevail.
posted by Craig2 on
Never mind- with any luck a Democrat will win in November, he or she will serve two terms with a Democrat majority, forcing the Republicans back into the centre ground, and the long-term outcome will be a United States that is more like the rest of the western world…
Craig2
Wellington, NZ
posted by amicus on
One would need de Tocqueville to improve on this, I guess.
The “belief systems” in America are young. In Europe, where the History of discarded beliefs surrounds them physically, one could argue that there is a different meta-understanding of what the import of “belief” is (and The Pope, btw, doesn’t like it one bit).
The counter-case, for America, is that Americans aren’t getting better or are changing for the wrong reasons (the generational shift) on the issue of gay marriage. I guess you’d argue that the forces of the status quo are hard at work for the first part and that TNG is … not a more enlightened version of the current one, but a new creature altogether.
To wit, the “Conservative Case for Marriage”, has yet to make its way into the collective psyche.
On dab of evidence comes from The Heretic Huckabee, who recently went on one of the national Sunday news programs, and got quizzed on his gay marriage beliefs.
Asked whether he thought homosexuality was a choice or something biological/innate, he said he didn’t know, and then repeated the saw about behaviors being choices.
The reporters left it there. I took that to mean that the reporter wasn’t equipped with the conservative case – perhaps any further case.
For instance, why, if one is “not sure”, shouldn’t one respond with great compassion, rather than great … damnation, for lack of a better term? Moreover, if gayness is a trait, and not a temptation, why should gay people be called upon to withhold their gifts of the spirit, broadly interpreted?
You see, they are just not there yet. Among the long list of possibilities, it’s not clear what is holding it up, including some strange interaction of the current gay ethos and “traditionalist sensibilities” or just the ghost of Anita Bryant (who I mention because those Floridians are at it again, this election season!).
It’s not just marriage, either. Rome has an openly transgender MP. On these things, America is not the land of possibility.
posted by Mark on
Even more ironic, despite that America seems “behind” Europe on gay rights, the modern gay rights movement itself was ignited by gay Americans inside the United States: notably the Stonewall Inn rebellion of 1969 which created Gay Pride Days celebrated around the world in countries which you won’t be killed for doing so. It wasn’t the French, or the Canadians, or the British, or the Palestinians, or the Germans, or the Swedes who came up with Gay Pride–it was Americans. Almost every gay icon endorsed the world over by gay rights groups originated in the United States: Gay Games, the Rainbow flag, the concept of the “gay vacation,” all this is quintensentially American. Even techno music, I hate to admit, is American. The Internet, cellular technology, all things gays hold so dear, are American innovations. America, being a nation with individualistic values, is more likely to spur such innovations. In many ways it’s Europe, and most definitely Canada, that follows in the footsteps of Americans. (Massachusetts legalized gay marriage before Canada and Spain.) Keep in mind, however, Europe (western Europe, that is) is not as “liberal” as our stereotypes of it lead us to believe. Even France has outlawed nationally gay marriage, as has Australia. And although France may allow gays to openly serve in its military, they are not allowed to hold positions of authority. A gay french soldier could never beomce a corporal. Could you imagine gay Americans settling for that? Also, Scandinavia, which does not permit same-sex marriage but something more aligned with California’s domestic partnerships, bans gays from adopting. Not even Alabama bans gays from adopting. Americans are not as intollerant as it appears, and Europe surely isn’t as liberal or open minded as we would like to think. Even nudity in many European countries, such as Italy, is a punishable offense, even on beaches. Florida even has a state park reserved for nuditsts. Stereotypes, as many of us gays know first hand, are very powerful. The way we view Europe and our own country is indicative of this.
posted by Mark on
I forgot to mention that western Europe is the ONLY society on earth that tried to systematically kill homosexuals: the Nazis in the 1940s. If America is to still be held accountable for Indians and slavery 150 years ago, then surely we can keep reminding Germans of their mass slaughter of approximately 100,000 homoexuals in the 20th century.
posted by Mark on
And another thing, France also bans nationwide gays from adopting. Use the Internet for more than downloading porn, and you’d know these things.
posted by Mark on
And let me say one last thing: when it comes to religious fanaticsm, Europeans really should look into the mirror. The British media in particular inundates its readers with protrayals of the “radical” right in the United States, smugly proclaiming the United States is a religious tyranny–this while they are sitting in the middle of Musliam radicalization seen only on par in the Middle East! It is in Britain and Europe where religious fanatics (Muslim extremists) are blowing up subways and rioting over cartoons–not in the United States. Europe is on the verge of living under sharia law, instigated by 4th, 5th generaion Muslims. If these people cannot be viewed as European, than how can anyone in the United States–who can trace their roots back to the 19th century–be considered American? Born and bred Europeans are the ones behind the Theo van Gogh murder in Amsterdam resulting in religious rioting. Two gay Americans were beaten severely in Amsterdam by Dutch-born Muslims just for holding hands. What does “liberal” European society do? Turn the other cheek and look to America, for which they reserve all their condemnation. Remember, it was in Western Europe in which the terrorists plotted and planned 9/11. Who’s society is more polarized by religious extremism? America or Europe??
posted by Mark on
It was a French-born Muslim who stabbed the openly gay Parisian mayor. The Marxist mayor never once condmened Islam for intolerance. Instead he passes judgement on US society. When he the parisian mayor sings and dances in the Paris Gay Rights parade, does he know the parade originated in the United States? It was a British-born Muslim who tried to blow up an American Airlines flight from Paris to Miami, which is why today we have to be nearly stripped search before boarding planes. It was British-born Muslims who tried to blow up a British Airways plane using toothpaste, which is why we can no longer bring “liquids” onto planes. Thanks, Europe! It was a French-born Muslim who tried to stage terrorist attacks inside the U.S. Do the Europeans feel repsonsible? Are they embarrassed? Does the US media even hold THEM in judgment? I’ll leave it for you to discuss….
posted by Harke Ploegstra on
On 7 december 1946 the Shakespeareclub was founded in the Netherlands, it is the oldest still existing LGBT organisation in the world.
In 1949 South Africa begins Apartheid. The US protest, but at the same time they had 21 states that had some kind of legal racial segregation.
That’s how forward the US are.
posted by Harke Ploegstra on
“By 1968 all forms of segregation had been declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court”
22 years later…
posted by Mark on
In 1933 Hitler became Chancellor of Germany. In 1934, Sweden became the first nation to recognize Hitler as the official leader of Germany, thus paving the way for the ensuing Holocaust, which resulted in millions of murders, including those of homosexuals.
That’s how forward Europeans are….
And by the way, Europeans don’t celebrate Gay Pride each summer because of some archaic group of Europeans who gathered in a dark, underground coffee shop in the 1930s. It was Americans, as usual, who became proactive, taking gay rights to the streets. If it weren’t for Americans, Europeans would likely still be lurking in dark alleys bemoaning their lack of freedoms, both gay and otherwise.
Europeans live with their head burried in the sand, which is why you cannot even see you own impending doom at the hands of radical Muslisms. As usual, Americans must fight for your survival, something of which I am truculently against.
posted by Harke Ploegstra on
Believe it or not, Mark, Europe is not a country. Maybe you should go back to primary school? Or don’t they teach those kinds of things in US schools anymore?
posted by Amicus on
…tried to systematically kill homosexuals: the Nazis in the 1940s
======
mark, technically, that is not true of the Nazis. Although it may seem a small point or distinction, people do preserve it.
I believe there are other societies, right now, that are enforcing a death penalty against homosexuals, so …
posted by David on
Europeans judging Americans about human rights is kinda like a serial killer condemning a jay walker, no??
I would like to ask Harke why so many minorities flock to the US (1 million per year, and that’s just the legal ones) if the US is such a haven for hatred against minorities?? My grandfather came from Italy and he didn’t leave because Italy was too tolerant, I can guarantee you that!
posted by Mario Sanchez on
The Nazis did put homosexuals in concentration camps and it’s estimated many thousands were murdered but why argue over numbers? The symbol of teh pink tirangle originated in Nazi Germany so that homosexuals could be clearly defined. I think the point of the guy’s post was that europe is not above sin despite how much it is portrayed as a theme park full of happy little elves. I always thought it was strange how Americans view Europe as some wonderful haven when our own ancestors left that place in droves to escape tyranny. I think propaganda has something to do with it, and a liberal anti-American media which swoons over anything european.
posted by Mark on
I never referred to Europe as a country, Harke. And believe it or not, the United States is far more diverse than Europe. I live in a nation that has legalized gay marriage, legalized prostitution, legalized marijuana use. Since you europeans are such experts on American culture and history, you’d know this of course. I live in a federal republic. Each state makes its own laws. I kinda like that. If you don’t like one state move to another. You europeans are inundated with the most monstrous characters of Americans, and your continent’s fascist simperings is indicative of your anti-Americanism. Americans just represent for europe the new Jews. Luckily, we are heavily armed and you cannot put us in your death camps, though you dream of it.
posted by David on
Europeans aren’t really tolerant, they’re just indifferent. They could care less about anything. You could give gays the rights to marry, and they shrug. You round up the gays and execute them, they shrug. Either way they could care less. What else could explain a continent with a history of totalitarian brutes and “isms” that have left tens of millions of innocent people dead of destitute. There is a huge difference between being tolerant and being indifferent. Europe is also indifferent to the Muslim nut jobs taking over their continent, even if it means losing more gay rights. Get the picture?…..
posted by Vikram D. on
i think the spirit of the article is that although on surface it appears that America as a whole is behind certain other industrialized nations when it comes to gay equality, overall Americans in general including homosexuals enjoy more liberty and freedoms. If you want to know how oppressive a government can be, you should follow what Canadian writer Mark Steyn is having to endure in Canada, where the elite Left Wing runs the nation much like the pigs in George Orwell’s Animal Farm, and this is basically how Europe is run too. Even many forms of porn is censored in Canada because it goes against the Left Wing “hate speech” codes, which considers pornography to negatively portray woman. A lesbian book store in Calgary, Little Sisters, has been fighting the Canadian government for almost a decade for the right to carrry lesbian porn. The Canadian customs keep confiscating it across the border, as it does most other American-made porn. America, by the way, is the world’s largest producer of pornography both gay and straight. At least in the US, despite general sentiment, we have something called the First Amendment, as the previous sentence proves. Really it’s a fantasy to believe Americans have less rights than other countries.
posted by Jimbo on
I’m in agreement with Mark. The gay community doesn’t realize how tolerant the United States is of us. I fear for Europe’s future. They are slowly being swallowed by Muslim fanaticism & is unable (or unwilling) to lift a finger to stop it. It’s like Hitler all over again. They’re just focused about how so evil the US is. You think life is bad in the southern states? Try living under soon to be imposed (I give it 20 years from now) sharia law in Europe. It will make Alabama look like San Francisco.
posted by J.K.--Dallas, Tx on
David is dead on. Euroepans are not tolerant they are just completely and totally indifferent and could care less if gays have rights or are hauled off to the ovens. Europe’s history is totally full of examples like that. Today a liberal dicator, tomorrow a fascist one. Europeans have abdicated any concern over their own destiny. To them it’s all the same–blase!
posted by Harke Ploegstra on
@ Mark:
If you consider the sum total of the many official languages of the countries of Europe, the US are not more culturally diverse than Europe by any stretch of the imagination.
That isn’t necessarily bad, but it is a fact.
One country is a Constitutional Monarchy, the next a Grand Duchy and the third a Federal Republic. And those are only the three countries surrounding to The Netherlands.
Switzerland has Direct Democray, the Vatican is a Papal State etc. and so on. The US is a single federal consitutional republic with only English as the national language.
Having more different ethnicities in your nation doesn’t necessarily make it more culturally diverse.
@ Vikram D.:
I’ve never claimed that Europeans have more rights than US citizens.(they have less) I do maintain that in Western European countries, there is considerably less legal and societal discrimination
against LGTBs than in the US.
If the US wants to move forwards towards greater acceptation of LGTBs it will need to take another legal route than the European countries did.
Other than that, that the US should follow in the footsteps of the European countries.
posted by Mark on
Harke, you keep showing your ignorance. The United States has NO official language. You seem to think we are much like Europeans with state santioned religions and languages and other sorts. Again, the United States has NO single official language, which is why when one votes in America, the voting instructions typically come in several languages, including Spanish, Cantonese, Russian, Polish, Hindu and French, to name a few. Harke, you take too much verbatim the anti-American left wing dogma spewed by your state-run news agencies. You really need to open your mind. Your views of America prove my points. You come from a culture naturally xonophobic and fascist.
posted by David on
“The US is a single federal consitutional republic with only English as the national language.”
WOW! And the euros call Americans ignorant??!! I thought it was common knowledge that America doesn’t have a national lingua!
posted by Billy Boy on
Attacks against homosexuals are on the rise in Canada and Europe. I don’t know the statistics in the United States, but if the overall crime rate is dropping in America and rising everywhere else, i assume “hate crimes” are going down too. Canada last year had a serial killer targetting gay men in Nova Scotia (barely got mentioned in American press, gay or otherwise–google it). Obviously legalizing gay marriage in Canada cannot stop even someone from going on a killing spree targetting gay men.
One poster mentioned that Europe is currently ruled by elite Leftists, so they can legislate whatever PC agenda they want, e.g. gay marriage. But this does not mean they represent the majority of Europeans. Europe Union has no representative government. The power structure is from the top down not the bottom up as it is in America. Like another poster said, in a flash things will change and tomorrow some nationalist like Hitler will take over again. Spain was a bruutal dictatorship only 30 years ago. It is likely it cuold become one again. Just look at Europe’s history. That is the only gage we have to measure the future is history. History repeats itself in places where they sweep everything under the rug and/or blame other people for their problems, as Europeans so sedulously do.
posted by Harke Ploegstra on
@ Mark and David:
I looked it up beforehand:
“The United States of America is a federal constitutional republic…”
and
“Although the United States has no official language at the federal level, English is the national language.”
Are both from this wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States#Language
@ Billy Boy:
I don’t have the crime rates, but I’m sure even if gay hate crimes have gone up they’re well under the levels in the US.
It’s true that many other countries (not just Europe) blame the US for all their problems, but that doesn’t mean fascism nor communism is likely to return any time soon.
posted by Mark on
Wikigod. Hehehe! Actually, statistically, crime in the United States is lower than in much of Europe AND Canada. Current statistics show that Canada’s crime rate, including violent crime, is 50% higher than in the U.S. (I think perhaps you watch too much CSI and think Hollywood portrayals of the Great Satan are accurate.) Sweden currently even has a higher overall crime rate than the United States. According to the U.N., Britain and Australia are the two most violent societies in the industrialized world. (This study has been validated by similar studies by private British, American and Dutch groups.) Add the Third World to the mix and the U.S. falls even farther down the list. It’s worth noting that the United States actually OVER estimates its crime rates while most other countries underestimate theirs. For example, in the U.S. if 10 apartments in one buidling are burlgarized, it counts as 10 burglaries, whereas in Britain it would count only as one. Here’s some links if you would like to see facts. Some might be a few years old, but I doubt a sudden increase/decrease in crime has taken place over the past 2-5 years. You can google for other web sites if you refuse to believe the ones listed below. If you’ve been keeping up with current events (emphasis on current) you’d know that crime trends are downward in the United States but dramatically upward almost everywhere else. It’s basically common knowledge which you won’t find on CNN or most of Europe’s state-run news sources:
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/guns/britishcrimerates.htm
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21902
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1573527/posts
http://members.aol.com/gunbancon/Frames/WSJ.html
posted by Harke Ploegstra on
Who can say what government actually reports accurate crime rates in the first place?
What’s important to this issue are not general crime rates, but the incidence of specific anti-LGBT violence. The theory is that the country that has the least of that is the furthest in terms of LGBT-acceptation.
posted by Stevedore on
Harke, keep reachin for those anti-American straws, big girl, keep reachin. If it makes you feel better about yourself, keep reachin. If alls yous gots to live for is to believe Americans are monstrous evil pigs, go for it!!! Just remembers, its aints gonna stops us from doin what’s we gots to do…
posted by David on
Harke why do you need so badly to believe gays are not accepted in the United States? If gays in America are so oppressed then why does nearly every gay trend originate in the United States?? The gay “scene” in the United States is the largest in the world. How could this be so if we’re so oppressed and victimized? We may not have a left wing government kissing our asses, but based on a numerous factors inherent in our culture and government there is little the government can do to stop us. Even an national ban on gay marriage is rife with difficulty, thanks to our founding fathers. America is just not this oppressive evil empire like you need to believe. Get over it.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-02-07-gay-teens-cover_x.htm
posted by Mr. Peepers on
There’s too much googling going on!! :o) Besides, I don’t know why anyone cares about gay marriage. One can’t even find a man willing to date these days, much less marry!!!
posted by Harke Ploegstra on
?Even a national ban on gay marriage is rife with difficulty, thanks to our founding fathers.?
The mere fact that it was even considered as a political move shows that the US still has a long way to go.
posted by Mark on
You’re actually rather comical. It’s a political move in every nation on earth, even Sweden. Even the new socialist government in Australia will not lift the national ban on gay marriage there. The French will never lift their national ban on gay marriage. Politically, it would backfire. Believe it or not, but there are opponents to same-sex marriage in every nation on earth. Maybe in America they are more organized, but then, so are the gay groups!! You need to look into the mirror. Get over America. You are obsessed.
posted by Harke Ploegstra on
In which country did they recently try to amend the Constitution to ban same-sex marriage?
(hint: it wasn’t The Netherlands)
posted by David on
Harke, go back to your copy of Das Kapital. Like Mark said, your venomous hatred of America is pretty much an indicator of the kind of person you are, and the kind of place Europe has always been. You should ask yourself why America exists to begin with. Hint: It wasn’t because Europe is a loving, wonderful theme park full of happy little elves.
posted by Rolf on
Ich mag nicht Amerika. Amerika ist Tod. Die Armen werden in Amerika get
posted by Harke Ploegstra on
@ Mark, David, Stevedore(who are probably the same person, given that you write in the same way):
You are mistaken, I merely placed questionmarks at the gist of this article, which, incidentally, isn?t half bad. I do reserve for myself the right to be critical of the United States.
I?d still like to continue this discussion with someone who do know how to conduct an argument, but only on the basis sound arguments that pertain to the matter at hand.
As for the ?venomous hatred?, David, that is all your own.
Now my sack of trolly-treats is empty.
posted by KamatariSeta on
Wow, the comments have really been coming in this post.
I’m pretty satisfied with living in America right now. Though I do think we need to make some improvements. Fortunately, I don’t think its particularly insurmountable.
I guess we do have on advantage, in that most people here are willing to fight the homophobes in our country, while in Europe, the muslim homophobes get a mostly free pass.
posted by Yo Yo on
“I guess we do have on advantage, in that most people here are willing to fight the homophobes in our country, while in Europe, the muslim homophobes get a mostly free pass.”
Brilliant! You said it all!! The past, present and future of Europe summed up in once sentence!!
posted by Harke Ploegstra on
@ KamatariSeta:
I wouldn’t call the El Moumni trial a “free pass”. He only narrowly escaped conviction. I wager in the US the trial would have never taken place.
posted by KamatariSesta on
And why did he escape conviction? Did someone decide it was better to let him go so the whites could busy themselves with introspection over the crimes of colonialism?
posted by Harke Ploegstra on
Freedom of Speech IIRC, but remember it was 2002.
posted by Pat on
Harke, maybe it is perception, but it does seem like radical Muslim immigrants are getting a free pass. It also appears that some European countries are waking up to it. I hope that’s the case.
posted by Johnna on
Was in Europe for a few months 10 years ago. Didn’t find it particularly liberal or tolerant. Found in mostly a continent drowning in ennui. On the topic of immigration in Europe—I would say that immigrants to Europe is what will save it. Without immigration, Muslim or not, Europe is a dead horse. Also think, especially after reading the banalities from Harke, that dealing with Muslim/Arab Europeans will be a lot easier than what we’ve had to deal with in regards to the lilly white socialist ones over there. Europeans are a tolerant people–tolerant of war, despots, ethnic killings and tyranny. Some Arab/Muslim Europeans with a work ethic and a yearning to be free might just be what Europe AND Amrerica needs. It’s a good thing that Muslim/Arabs in Europe outbreed the white Europeans 3:1.
posted by Charles Wilson on
Rolf, you were cute in The Sound of Music. What made you so bitter in your old age?
posted by Barry on
This is an interesting aritlce, unfortunately, blind hatred for America makes it impossible to discuss. Let’s move on….
posted by solomon on
The coming Republican POTUS will have the pleasure of appointing at least 3 justices to the Supreme Court, all of whom will replace left-wing vestiges of the ’60s. At that point Antonin Scalia will be vindicated, child-murder and sodomy will be forever vanquished, and the Constitution will again be the Law of the Land.
posted by dean on
Europe and America are very different places. Europe, being far older, has had more time to realize that homosexuality is as normal as heterosexuality though not as common.
Ash – I feel so sorry for you. It seems you’ve gotten stuck in one small point of view. You also have incredible distaste for other gay men and yourself. In other words, you lead with your insecurities and ignorance. Stop judging for five minutes and enjoy life – you might just get what you think you want…