We were having Margaritas, and my friend Luke paused in the middle of a tirade against evangelicals.
"Oh, wait," he said. "Um, are you religious?"
I hate this question.
Because "Are you religious?" implies a yes-or-no answer: yes, you're religious; no, you're not.
I'm not comfortable in either category, so I'm never sure what to say. Do I give them the long answer? Or do I mutter "No," which is shorthand for "I'm not evangelical or born again," which means: "I'm not the kind of Christian you're worried about."
I don't even know, honestly, about calling myself Christian. I go to church, but I think a lot of my brothers and sisters in the pews would likely be suspicious of my suspicions about dogma.
On the one hand, I went to seminary for a short time and take Christianity very seriously. On the other, I wrestle with the fundamental tenets that make Christianity what it is and not something else: the resurrection of the body; the idea that one Middle Eastern man saves every one from sin and he himself is God; the virginity of Mary; a personal God who keeps his ear open to each of our problems.
Back in the early days of Christianity, all of these things were up for grabs. I would have been comfortable being Christian then (well, philosophically comfortable. That whole martyrdom thing is another story).
Yet there is another side of Christianity. The idea that God is love. The conviction that one should practice radical compassion. The very challenging notion that we should treat others the way we would like to be treated. The sentiment that individuality should never rise above working for and with the group.
This is very difficult stuff. But this is what connects me to the belief system that is Christianity. Because Buddhism, though a completely different religion on a dogmatic level, has some similar underlying beliefs, I tell people I am Christian-Buddhist, so I don't scare them away.
I first started doing this about a dozen years ago, when I was visiting New Orleans. I still wore a cross then, so often that I would forget that it rested against my collarbone. I was being hosted by a friend, but when she took me to the lesbian bar in town, I noticed that her friends were shooting me odd looks.
"What is it?" I asked my friend finally.
She shifted feet. "They think you're here to convert them," she said. "That you're not really a lesbian."
I put the cross in my pocket.
In the minds of this pack of lesbians, Christianity equaled gay hate. In the mind of my friend Luke, who is straight, Christianity equals a shutting down of conversation.
I hate the evangelicals for that.
This, of course, is very un-Christian of me. But the Religious Right has taken something beautiful and tough and twisted it into something ugly and easy.
The most vocal segment of the Christian church at the moment has two heads: the Pope, who takes every chance he gets to try to kick out of the Catholic Church anyone who disagrees with him so as to ensure it's "purity"; and evangelical Christianity, led by people like the late Jerry Falwell, who looked on the Civil Rights movement with disdain, called Bishop Desmond Tutu a fraud, and said that 9/11 was caused by "the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians."
As Luke pointed out, instead of approaching ideas that are new to them with compassion and curiosity, these figureheads of the Right instead try to kick these ideas-and people-out of the way by declaring that God doesn't like it.
As if God's likes and dislikes were as easy to discern as flavors of ice cream.
All of this means that my closet Christianity helps no one (well, except maybe my dating life). What the world needs is more diversity in Christianity, not less. Christians need to know that being Christian isn't an automatic Get Out of Jail Free card when it comes to intolerance; gays, lesbians and others on the left need to know that "Christian" doesn't equal "enemy."
So Luke asked me if I were religious.
"Yeah," I said. "I am." And I gave him the long answer.
44 Comments for “Being Christian”
posted by Lori Heine on
There is something to be said for being honest about the fact that not all Christians agree with one another about everything.
It’s called HONESTY: acknowledging reality.
Some Christians are real jerks, but others aren’t. Some are welcoming, tolerant and inclusive, and others are arrogant, mean-spirited and exclusionary.
Some believe the earth is 6,000 years old and that God just went “abdracadabra” and lo! there were Adam and Eve (never, of course, Adam and Steve). Others believe the earth is millions of years old, and that life evolved gradually.
We now enjoy fried chicken because of the onetime existence of its venerable ancestor, T-Rex. May God and Colonel Sanders be thanked!
What happens when one side in a debate edits their version of reality in a way that others can recognize is wrong? They lose credibility.
Lots of straight Christians, for example, hear anti-religious gays rant and rave about “all those evil Christians,” and they are turned off. They don’t want to be bigots, but they don’t like other people who are clearly bigoted, either.
posted by Jorge on
Finally, someone who says they’re acting un-Christian for h8ing. I get so tired of people who say they hate rightists because hate is bad and then act like it’s a good thing to hate (I’m like wha?).
Personally I don’t like the gay question very much for about the same reasons. I’m not too thrilled about certain Latino questions, either. I’d rather be judged as my own person even if I do affirm those identities.
Long answers are so draining. But sometimes people are going to listen to them.
posted by Craig2 on
If it helps, I get grief from more verdant than thou Wiccans because I’m not convinced that genetic engineering is completely dangerous.
As far as LGBT Christians go, I respect them. Okay, where I come from, the MCC has never been all that strong, but I do support LGBT ordination rights struggles
as a matter of practical political solidarity. And as for LGBT Christians, again, their religion or spirituality is their own matter. If they want to follow their spiritual path,
fine. If they happen to be lucky enough to attend an inclusive church, good for them. There are LGBT Christians, Jews, Wiccans, Buddhists, Hindus and atheists out there, which may help to explain why one common LGBT symbol is a rainbow…
Craig2
Wellington
New Zealand
posted by dalea on
Well Jennifer, why are you telling us this? It would seem more fitting to be addressing this message to the overwhelming majority of conservative Christians who do practice hate towards gay people. I for one am fed up with these statements that not all conservative Christians hate gay people which are not addressed to the haters. The whole ‘I am not as theatrical as Fred Phelps even tho I believe exactly what he does’ routine leaves me cold.
Jennifer, this is utterly the wrong venue for you. You should post at Christianity Today or some other conservative Christian venue. Like right now.
But wait! These venues would not let you post this well meaning distortion of reality. Does that give you some clue? Like that regardless of what we do, conservative Christians give in to anti-gay hate? Which is why actions against the active hate-mongers really have no limits
posted by Last Of The Moderate Gays on
First, Jennifer, I commend you on a well-written piece. The evangelicals’ attempted hijacking of Christianity is indeed a frustrating issue. When asked about the “religion” question, I always choose the “long response.” Fortunately, I haven’t yet run into any religion haters as of yet, though. Those of us who are Christian need to stand up & fight the “lumping” of Christianity with evangelicalism.
Second, dalea, perhaps you should carefully reread the article. If you do, you might see that the author is speaking not just about conservative Christians but gays (and in particular gays who either distrust or outright hate religion), AS WELL. Thus, this seems as good a forum as any for this discussion.
Additionally, as the author points out, one of the “tough” points of Christianity is loving your enemy. That doesn’t mean being a doormat or a milquetoast; what it means is that if you don’t offer at least respect (NOT approval, etc.), how can you expect it in return?
posted by dalea on
Moderate, I have been reading and hearing this same story since 1973. The particulars change, the format does not. Generally, it is told in the context of not wanting to be lumped in with the conservative Christians. The underlining premise is that the gay person somehow does not realize that lots of really nice people are Christians.
My own experience is that this premise is totally false. Most gay people do know about all the nice Christians, even if they exist only in far away places. Like, not here and now.
Instead, IMHE, gay people tend to have experiences with conservative Christians that are totally unpleasant. And in such situations, the moderate Christians have invariably flaked out on us. I have example after example to draw upon which leads me to this understanding. But I’ll just go into one.
For years I went to Topeka KS on business twice a year. And invariably the Phelps showed up to picket. After listening to them scream and shout, there were invariably some people who came by to tell us that not all Christians were like the Phelpses. It invariably struck me that it would have been far more worthwhile for them to have told the Phelpses this.
I find it would greatly enhance the reputation and acceptance of Christianity among gays, were we to see our Christian friends openly confronting the cC’s. But that does not happen. Which is why there is such a dearth of empathy.
posted by Jorge on
“Additionally, as the author points out, one of the “tough” points of Christianity is loving your enemy. That doesn’t mean being a doormat or a milquetoast; what it means is that if you don’t offer at least respect (NOT approval, etc.), how can you expect it in return?”
That’s exactly what I was thinking.
dalea, if you honestly believe the “nice Christians” only exist only in far away places, then personally I think you’ve just proved the old story to be true. Maybe your experience proves that they’re cowards and not really fighters. But that’s pretty close to the definition of “nice Christian” and “moderate.” I’ve always considered any affirmation of gays by religious Christians to be a radical compassion thing.
posted by The Gay Species on
Jennifer,
The words “religion” and “tolerance” are, of necessity, largely incompatible. It’s not that they have faith in a deity, it’s that their deity has a monopoly on the truth, and with that singular truth, diversity and plurality of thought and practice are heresy. Most religions face the dichotomy that: Either (A) their deity is true, and must be followed, or that (B) their deity may be true, and need not be followed. (B) never is claimed, but (A) is nearly always. If (A), tolerance of any belief or behavior disallowed by the deity is heretical, and therefore anathema, or prohibited. End of discussion. Deity has spoken.
Thus, the majority of religious claims are absolute claims, and absolute claims are intolerant of alternative claims, identified as “heresy,” “sinful,” etc., particularly when a deity is given as the reason. If one believes the deity, and the deity’s claim to the absolute truth, how can one tolerate any counter-claims, without repudiating the deity and its claims to absolute truth? How can one say, “X is divinely true,” but it’s okay to be false?
Expecting religious tolerance is expecting the near-impossible, and we observe that impossibility in nearly every religious claim and practice.
posted by Lori Heine on
“Expecting religious tolerance is expecting the near-impossible, and we observe that impossibility in nearly every religious claim and practice.”
Horse hockey. The purveyors of gloom and doom in the GLBT “movement” continue to tell us things like that. They continue to encourage that all gays and lesbians abandon traditional faith in favor of agnostic posturing, designer religion or primal-scream, Sid-Vicious anti-religious tantrums.
They are still conflicted about religion and their sexuality. They have never fully reconciled the two. I don’t think this is anything to laugh about or poke fun at, and I feel sorry for them — but we, as a society, have dignified emotional immaturity long enough.
I say again what I said before: you can get help for that. Those of us who, like NDT and myself, have dealt with our issues, faced our inner demons and reconciled our sexuality with our spirituality are not traitors to the cause. We are healthy grownups, pointing the way to wholeness.
How different the landscape of Christianity would be if all those damaged children who allowed themselves to be driven out — because, at whatever level, they still believed the propaganda against them put forth by manipulators and bullies — had stayed and stood up for their birthright instead.
We are doing the work, and fighting the fight, that others will not. That way, twenty years from now, instead of issuing anonymous threats against us, they can come peacefully back to church. Then they can live off the fat of the Promised Land others have conquered for them.
posted by Casey on
What people like “the Gay Species” don’t understand is one of the underlying principles of the Christian faith – that faith is a gift from God, given in His time and by His spirit… and also, that the truth does not need force to protect it. God certainly does not need me condemning somebody for heresy, nor does He want me to refuse to tolerate what I know to be their errors when they deny His existence.
I have no problem tolerating somebody believing differently than I do, because I remember quite clearly when I was in their position in my own spiritual journey… and I am aware that my own journey goes on, so those who believe differently about God may know more than I – we see through a glass darkly, after all. I have faith that if it is God’s will, those who turn their eyes from Him will someday understand, and come home.
As an evangelical myself, I do what I can to put the message of the gospel out there, which is that God loves us, has saved us, and will welcome any who come to Him with open arms and forgiveness. I talk about who Christ was, and what He did in life, on the cross and afterwards – and I try to mold my life to be consistent with that example. God forgives those who are ignorant, and I am called to do the same. More than that, I am called to love them.
Christianity, at its heart, is absolutely about both tolerance and truth. Understand that, and maybe you’ll be able to see where we’re coming from a little more – you’ll certainly lose some of your fear of us. Perhaps, even, you’ll gain a little hope.
posted by Last Of The Moderate Gays on
dalea, with all due respect, I think your mind’s made up, and no one is going to confuse you with the facts. Nevertheless, here goes:
First, using the Phelps example proves what I just wrote. That’s because labeling a lunatic like Phelps in with the rest of Christians is akin to labeling Ted Bundy and Hitler as human beings.
Second, “I find it would greatly enhance the reputation and acceptance of Christianity among gays, were we to see our Christian friends openly confronting the cC’s.”
Really?:
http://www.soulforce.org/article/690
However, not everyone feels (apparently as you do?) that raucous public demonstrations accomplish much. I am one of them. I’d rather talk to someone one-on-one than stand in the middle of the street, creating much sound and fury and accomplishing next to nothing, IMO. It’s each according to his/her gifts. And, FYI, Phelps actually came to my city recently. I thought about going out to confront them (already against my better judgement), but IMO, the definition of insanity is trying to reason with a crazy person, and also, why draw more attention to this publicity whore? In the end, the “cure” is very often worse than the “disease.” The best antidote to Phelps and the like is indifference. When there are no cameras and mics in front of them, they usually wither and die.
Finally, while you briefly acknowledge the difference between sects/denominations in Christianity, let me reinforce it strongly: Christianity is a spectrum of denominations and beliefs. There are Catholics, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Baptists, etc. Even appearing to lump them into one, evil conservative boogeyman does a tremendous injustice to most Christians, straight and gay. NOT ALL DENOMINATIONS demonize homosexuality. Perhaps if you’re interested in opening your mind and seeing this, here’s a resource for you:
http://www.gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/find_a_church.htm
I’m sorry you had some bad experiences with people you feel are Christian. Don’t let it shape your entire opinion on it, though.
Lori, I couldn’t add anything more to your most eloquent and thoughtful response.
posted by dalea on
Moderate says: ‘I’m sorry you had some bad experiences with people you feel are Christian.’
They told me that they were Christians. They told me that they were doing what they were doing because they were Christians. In each case, the Christian Faith compelled their actions. Please, do not patronize me. I am talking about actual Christians.
I have lived through all of the AIDS epidemic as an adult out gay man. During this time I saw literally hundreds of interactions between sick and dying gay men and their Christian families.
Let’s see what some of them were. At least 4 dozen cases where the family showed up at a hospice situation in the home. The family took out their Bibles and began screaming hellfire at the dying guy. All the while striping the house of anything of value. Several acquaintances came home from the hospital to find his lover’s family had emptied the house totally.
I personally know of several hundred examples of the Christian family showing up to claim the body, ban the lover and friends from any services and end up abandoning the body to a common grave.
There were quite a few cases where the family stepped in and demanded a cessation of all treatment. This was in instances where there was a strong possibility that the person would live if treated. How would you feel about Christianity if you had seen a family with Bibles come in and demand the breathing machine be turned off so your friend could die of Pnuemocystis? The lover could not get around the family’s next of kin status. He had to watch his beloved die needlessly. And listen to all sorts of Bible babble.
Then there are all the cases where the surviving partner was tossed out into the snow. And the Bible Believing family was able to overturn their joint tenancy and grab all the assets. Many, many, many gay men that I have known.
So, Moderate, maybe if you looked into gay men and their history with Conservative Christianity you would understand where this hostility comes from. It results from hundreds upon thousands of personal interactions. Trying to wiggle out with the maybe they weren’t Christians or you just haven’t met the right people doesn’t cut it.
I will leave you with one of my favorite examples. A friend of mine who was a Dunkard Pastor had worked in Hospice. He had the ashes of a gay man who had died of AIDS on his mantle. He could not bring himself to follow the law and return these to the family. The deceased brother was also a minister. He had told my friend he intended to keep the ashed on top of the toilet tank. And before each piss, put a pinch of cremains in the bowl. To show his Bible based belief about gay people.
Moderate, you are trivializing and making light of the experiences gay people have with conservative Christians.
posted by The Gay Species on
As Casey and Lori demonstrate, the Will to Believe in the non-existent and impossible leads them to believe that those who are not credulous need to “get help.”
I suggest otherwise. If they choose to believe in a deity, who speaks from a burning bush, virgin births, that water-into-wine, bread-into-flesh, wine-into-blood, resurrection of the dead, and ascensions are possible need to “get real.”
As for “gay Christians,” their Holy Bible is unequivocal: “If a man lies with males as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination, they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them” (Lv 20:12). “Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to to things that should not be done” (Rm 1:27b-28). “In like manner, [those] indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire” (Jd 7).
Now, who is in denial? I’ve cited three verses from the Word of God. If the Word is true, gays and lesbians have already “been given up” and offer “an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.” If the Word is false, why believe it? Or, if the believer determines which parts are true and which parts of the Word of God are false, who is Playing God? Making one’s judgment of others or of making one’s self equal to, or above, God is the worst form of idolatry, and the most heinous of all sins (Rm 2). Seems to me, the gay Christian is the supreme denialist and the credulous one.
posted by Lori Heine on
Gay Species (someone who wants to make sure we know how he wraps up his whole self-definition) cherry-picks three of the handful of usual Bible verses used by fundy legalists to “prove” the Bible supposedly condemns “homosexuality.”
How richly, deliciously ironic it is to find traitors in our midst, like Species and Dalea, WHO ACTUALLY SIDE WITH FUNDAMENTALISTS, arguing against a healthy religious faith for GLBT people.
Were he not a member of the “Gay Species,” this character would probably be one of Falwell’s chief acolytes. His “reasoning” makes this clear.
I’m beginning to wonder what the purpose of this website actually is. Is it about political discussion or group therapy?
Siding with a psycho like Dalea is no great recommendation.
When he’s on his meds, Dalea quotes poetry for us. Perhaps, when Prozac is available, Species performs old coal-mining ditties or brings bunnies out of stovepipe hats. Sheesh.
Entire books have been written about the handful of “clobber passages” used by anti-gay Christians to “justify” their hate. I would gladly recommend any of them. The very fact that this is a hotly contested issue in the churches right now shows how few people (especially educated ones) any longer read those verses that way.
Not good ol’ Species. He likes his world as neatly black-and-white and Simon-simple as the fundies, so he LINES UP ALONGSIDE OF THEM BY ACTUALLY QUOTING THE SAME VERSES.
I’m sorry the world isn’t such a simple place. When you point out to gay-hating fundy whackjobs that they always stand on the same side of the issue as do their stalwart allies, religion-hating, leftist gay loons, the irony is lost on them, too.
What is never asked, in arguments like this, is what sort of people religious frauds like Falwell, Dobson and Robertson would have been if they had not been Christians.
By what passes for reasoning with people like Species and Dalea, we can only assume they would have been as virtuous as Mother Teresa and as innocenct as Little Bo Peep.
Given the incontrovertible proof Dalea has offered here (and certainly plenty of other people elsewhere) that non-Christians can be vile, self-absorbed, infantile jerks, Christianity is hardly any excuse for it.
posted by dalea on
Hit a nerve did I, Lori?
Fundy housewives who want to pose as out dykes are so easy to smoke out.
As I have said numerous times, I am a religious person. Paganism is my path of choice. The anti-religion thing is not going to stick.
Lori, many thanks for showing us what real Christianity looks like. You manifest it so well. There is nothing like havin a real conservative Christian around to show us what that path is all about.
posted by Lori Heine on
“Fundy housewives who want to pose as out dykes are so easy to smoke out.”
Dalea, you are an idiot. Whatever it is that “fundy housewives” do, they probably don’t use their real friggin’ names — especially not when they’re well-known in their own GLBT communities.
Your stupidity and irrationality are showing more clearly than Aunt Pittypat’s lacy slip.
As for showing you how real “conservative” Christians act, that’s a dull routine, too.
Some real Christians don’t appreciate being threatened by people. They tend to stand up to bullies, just as anyone else would — as well as to laugh at those who are so obviously nothing but cowards in reality.
I doubt many real pagans run around threatening people, either. Thanks for showing us all what a great, moral paragon of a pagan you are. The problem with your argument, of course, is that it runs both ways.
And as for people like Species, who quotes a passage from Romans that cannot be interpreted the way he (and his anti-gay allies) interpret it without contradicting the entire epistle, and quotes the OT Holiness Code, which no Christian regards as binding, their own hypocrisy is pretty glaring, too.
After all, why quote Scripture if you are then going to ridicule the very belief in religious doctrines (like the resurrection) to which the Scriptures point?
Indeed, we make your tidy little world sooo messy.
Psychotherapy really would be a better option, Dalea, than begging somebody to tell you you have “hit a nerve.” Your touchy-feely psychbabble exposes nobody’s vulnerability but your own.
But of course, if you could only get my ISP number, you’d sure “deal with me,” wouldn’t you, you great big, manly, courageous thing?
posted by JohnM. on
Jeez!
Anger at organized religion (Dalea) is justified, wallowing in victimhood and demanding everyone else do so as well, is not. Yes, Christianity has resulted in genocide, institutionalized heterosexism, the spread of HIV and an epidemic of self-hatred. It has also provided the context for much civil rights activism and justice seeking. Is it impossible for you, Dalea, to imagine that people might seek to heal their wounds by going to the source of them, re-interpreting them and transforming them into something that affirms their lives? Does that make them “fundy housewives?” And are you now the arbiter of who is a “true gay?” Sorry, but you can keep that crap to yourself.
As a Christian minister, I am not afraid to say that I find most religion, (including Christianity and paganism) to be delusion rather than a search for the truth. My church has as it’s tagline, “welcoming of people of all faiths and of uncertain faith.”
posted by Brian Miller on
Major Christian denominations are constantly complaining about how “defamed” they are by various gay columnists who note their rather poor track records on gay issues. Apart from the Quakers, Unitarians, and UCC (all of which are small denominations), Christian religious affiliations are generally anti-gay.
If they want to put their money where their mouths are, rather than whine about the “oppressive and deceptive” statements by gay people about their political agendas, one of them should step forward and call for immediate marriage equality for gay people and back it up by religiously marrying gay people in their churches.
Until they do that, all their talk about their “unfair” homophobic label is just empty, meaningless talk.
They claim a deep belief in the statements of Jesus, but Jesus called for them to walk the rugged and difficult path of righteousness, not the easy and convenient path of “talk a good game but cater to prejudice” that presently represents the positions of the major denominations at this point in time.
posted by dalea on
JohnM, on this forum I have praised and recommended UCC, UUA, Quakers, Episcopalian and some other Christian denomination. I have expressed reservations about the mainline churches while recognizing that gay affirming congregations do exist among them.
My above post does say that it is conservative Christianity I object to. And have had bad experiences with. Organized religion is not something I object to. And I know from personal experience how religion supports and helps one through bad times.
posted by Casey on
Dalea, a simple question for you: do you distinguish between Christian denominations and Christ?
The thing is, denominations, churches, individual Christians – these are all human things, human beings, and as such, given to weakness, failures and sin… and these sins are worth hating. Christ gives security – “perfect love casts out all fear” – but human beings are insecure creatures, and much as it tears my heart to read the details of the abuse you have been subjected to, I don’t see that as the result of Christianity – I see it as the result of fear, misunderstanding, anger, loss, insecurity – symptoms of man’s broken nature, our inability to love perfectly as we are commanded to.
So yes, followers of Christ have done you wrong – they remain human – but what, if anything, do you have against Christ himself? That, after all, is what really matters, and it is what allows gay Christians to worship as we do, to live as we do among those who sometimes hate us in the hopes of making life better for others… we know that there is more than this, and we are secure in the love of our Lord… and that is enough.
posted by dalea on
By and large these were not things that happened to me directly. They did happen to people I knew or knew of. And I feel such events go a long way towards explaining why there is such an animus to conservative Christianity in the gay world. Lots and lots of gay men have had utterly dreadful experiences with Christians. And until gay Christians recognize and deal with this, all the sermonettes on ‘why can’t we just respect’ are only making matters worse.
I find that each strand of Christianity has their very own Christ. They make Christ in their own image. So, it is totally possible for there to be both the Quakers’ kind and compassionate Christ and the fundies vengeful and vindictive Christ. But then I do not regard Christ as an historical figure. Rather see him as mytheo-poetic, like Demeter or Odin.
posted by Jim on
“They told me that they were Christians. They told me that they were doing what they were doing because they were Christians. In each case, the Christian Faith compelled their actions. Please, do not patronize me. I am talking about actual Christians. ”
No, you’re not. You’re talking about Pharisees.
“As for “gay Christians,” their Holy Bible is unequivocal: “If a man lies with males as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination, they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them” (Lv 20:12). ”
Are you really uniformed enough of Christianity to try to indict it by quoting the Torah? Rejecting the authority of the Torah was the basis of Christianity for a Jew like Paul.
“My above post does say that it is conservative Christianity I object to. ”
That’s the core misunderstanding. These people are in no wise conservative. Fundamemtalism is a very modern deviation. It didn’t exist in any form before the US Civil War. Many of their core beliefs are not Christian – their attitude towards the Bible – inerrancy – is more Islamic than Cgristian.
That doesn’t mean that truly conservative Christians like the Eastern Orthodox are gay- friendly. They’re not, they’re quite homophobic, but that is due to the residue of their pagan pasts. The Roman Catholic insistence on sex only for procreation comes out of pagan Roman Law. The Orthodox attitude towards sex sounds more Gnostic than Christian. And so on.
posted by dalea on
Jim, why are you telling me this? You should tell them. Whom you will find readily without even searching.
For myself, anyone who claims to be a Christian is one. So, quit haranguing me and start haranguing them.
posted by Casey on
See, Dalea, that goes to the point I was trying to make earlier. Saying that anything is “Christian” if done by a person who says they are following the Bible disregards the objective question of whether that person’s actions are in line with Christ and the principles He espoused (or the Christ-character, if you prefer). As somebody said, even the devil can quote scripture to suit his purposes. So long as you think Christianity is defined by the actions of the creations, rather than the Creator they aspire to be like, then you might as well just be condemning people for being people – it isn’t the religion you’re fighting with, because as far as you’re concerned, not only is there no God, there’s no particular religion either, just an amorphous mass. At least the conservative Christians you loathe so are willing to say that some of their actions aren’t “Christian” – that’s what they mean when they say that we’re all sinners. To judge something, there has to be something to measure it against.
As to telling them, we are. We tell them they’re wrong about gays and lesbians every day, through our actions. When we are gracious, when we serve our communities, when we forgive the abuse they sometimes pile on us, and when we worship God alongside them with as much humility as we are able, gay Christians demonstrate the fruit of the spirit recognizable to believers as proof that God is with us… and that changes more minds than any harangue or essay ever could. We are bearing witness, Dalea, and it’s working. I just wish you could see that.
posted by Lori Heine on
I have asked this question many times before, and never get an answer. But I think it’s an interesting thing to consider, so I’ll ask it again. As disgraceful as “Christians” like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and James Dobson are, how can we say they are jerks BECAUSE they are (or in any case claim to be) Christians?
I think they would have been jerks no matter what religious belief they had chosen. There is, in fact, a distinct possibility that they would have been worse if they had not had the Christian standard against which they could measure themselves.
Those who yearn for an atheist Jerry Falwell are deluding themselves. There is every chance that as an atheist, Falwell would have been a monster.
posted by Jim on
“For myself, anyone who claims to be a Christian is one.”
That is hardly your call, is it? How about letting Christians decide who is and isn’t? That’s been the standard, for oh, about two millenia now. The standard has been communion. How many of these Dobson clones can walk in a get communion in a real church?
“So, quit haranguing me and start haranguing them.”
Casey answered this one. But I am going to add something. The church could stand to be a little clearer about these people and call thenm what they are: heretics and Pharisees. And the church is wrong for failing to do that.
Lori is right about these people. The difference between a Cromwell or a Falwell or a Bin Laden or a Stalin is a matter of degree and that depends on opportunity. It has more to do with a personality type and less to do with the ideology or religion – they can take anything and twist it to their ends. And they are not some little minority of twisted souls. This is a pretty common tendency among people in general.
posted by Last Of The Moderate Gays on
Dalea, first, I am not patronizing you. You seem to keep thinking that I am somehow condoning the actions of fundamentalists. I’ll tell you once again — I AM NOT. And, once again, I’ll tell you that THERE ARE PLENTY OF CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS THAT ARE GAY-FRIENDLY. I’ve even provided a link to some of them.
At one point, you give a weak acceptance that “Organized religion is not something I object to.” I frankly question why you wrote that, since basically everything else you have posted has been exactly the opposite . . . You seem to be one of those gays who falls into the category of what I call “well, if you don’t love me, I’m not going to love you,” Christian-hating gays. If I’m wrong, I apologize.
Believe it or not, I understand your antipathy towards Christians, given the numerous stories you recount. BUT, for every story you recount, I can recount or find an equally compelling story of people like a friend of mine who was raised in a strict Pentacostal home (BTW, it’s HARDLY a gay-friendly denomination) and who was studying to be a Pentacostal minister, only to discover who he really is & risked everything to come out to his family, only to be loved & supported. He is now active in a gay-friendly denomination and is happily partnered.
Let me ask you a question — you identify yourself as a “paganist.” If I were attacked & robbed by a paganist, would I therefore be correct in labeling all paganists as thugs and robbers? Are you a thug and robber? Are theivery and assault tenets of Paganism?
As Jim so aptly pointed out, those people you mentioned were NOT demonstrating TRUE Christian behavior. Nevertheless, instead of at least opening your mind to finding out the “other side of the coin,” you seem to prefer stewing in your apparent hatred and believing in what you want to believe, rather than what is. Very sad. Please don’t take this as “patronizing,” but I’ll pray for you and others like you so that you can at least let go of that apparent hatred and bitterness. It’s poisoning, and it accomplishes nothing in the end, just as those who hate us solely because we’re gay only end up poisoning their own lives.
One last point — as Lori points out, you are actually helping the fundamentalists’ cause when you, Species, et al. trot out the “clobber verses” (Good one, Lori, but try to refrain from the personal attacks!:)). Why? Because there are many gays who grew up in the Christian church and who are trying to reconcile their love of God with their homosexuality. What you, Species, Brian, et al. are basically doing (whether you mean to or not) is saying that you can’t be gay and Christian. This is especially ironic given the fact that most/all of you identify yourselves as not Christian. It’s tantamount to being told how to be a vegetarian by Jimmy Dean. This kind of hypocritical (after all, we should be accepting of EVERYONE, right?) nastiness is what drives some gays into loveless straight sham marriages, and, even in some extreme cases, suicide.
posted by dalea on
There really is no such thing as ‘True” Christianity. There are only the actions of actual Christians as observed over time. And my observation of conservative Christians has been of really bad behavior. Nor am I alone in this; I once went through popular gay fiction trying to find a positive picture of conservative Christians. I found one in Warren’s Fancy Dancer, 30 years ago. Reading Paul Monette’s last books, there is negative after negative. Same for all the authors I read. Then there is Gore Vidal whose basic work on the subject ‘Julian’ rips into the foundations of Christianity. This is from the early 1960’s.
I did watch the first 4 seasons of Queer As Folk. There is not one positive depiction of Christianity in it. There are positive thoughts about Judaism, New Age, NeoPagan, Buddhist and atheist paths. And this was a wildly popular program among gay people, in the first years at least.
Notice that I moved out of ‘me and my friends’ way of looking at this. Go to a gay bookstore. Look at the popular works, the genre works. This are writen by gay people for gay people. And over and over they contain negative portrayals of Christians. From high art writers like Paul Monette, Felice Picano and Edmund White to genre authors like Mark Richard Zubro, John Hansen and John Morgan Wilson. Hansen began his series of gay stories in the 40’s, though published later. Carpenter and Wilde who wrote in Victorian times tell pretty much the same story.
From this I conclude that my experiences are not really all that unusual. Just par for the course. The alternative would be to believe that large numbers of people over a long period of time experienced some sort of run of bad luck or hallucination. Which is absurd.
posted by dalea on
Gee Moderate, if Lori laid off they personal attacks, how would we know she is a Christian? She just fits in so well with all that we are discussing with her vast array of vitriol. Perhaps if you spoke with her as she speaks with others….
In any event, I am trying to move this discussion beyond the personal. From what I have found, vast numbers of gay men over long periods of time have had troubles with conservative Christians. Like from before Abraham Lincoln was president down to today. And your answer is….?
Beyond that, I have never before encountered the word ‘paganist’. Is it in common usage? Please remember, I am not discussing a single encounter under unusual circumstances. It is a widespread series of events over a long period of time. Which is radically different from your example. Most gay people have had pleasant experiences with Pagans. NeoShamanic groups like the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgance have greatly advanced our cause among gay people. To criticize the Sisters is to criticize religion itself.
posted by Last Of The Moderate Gays on
Ok, dalea, you’ve worn me down. I keep trying to explain to you that there are many different denominations in Christianity, yet you continue to ignore this and fixate on the fact that all Christians are gay-hating, conservative fundies. Guess this’ll come as quite a news flash to people like the Unitarians and the denominations at MCC churches . . . Yes, you’re right . . . they must not be gay-affirming. Perhaps they’re part of some secret plot cooked up by Dobson and Robertson?!?
I also have no doubt that most gay writers hate Christianity. Thus, I guess that since there’s a majority, they’re automatically right, huh?
I guess I should have known that you’re mind is made up and I shouldn’t try to confuse you with the facts, but just in case, here are two books you might try reading:
– “Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality: Gay People in Western Europe from the Beginning of the Christian Era to the Fourteenth Century” by John Boswell
– “Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism: A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture” by John Shelby Spong
I know they’re not heavyweights like Gore Vidal and the producers of “Queer as Folk,” but you might find some challenging information in them.
And, yes, a person who practices paganism (as you claim you do) is referred to as a “paganist:”
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/paganist
posted by Casey on
Dalea… of course the most common portrayals in the gay press are negative – and I’ll let you in on something – the positive portrayals of non-Christian faiths are not intended to be positive expressions of religion, but also as attacks on Christianity, as a way of fighting back against “the oppressor.” Why? Because, as Lori has pointed out patiently time and again, many gay and lesbian Americans, who were raised Christian or in the Christian milieu of the US (we have a secular government, but yes, a religious society, and the young person coming out can’t avoid it) never were able to get beyond the teachings of straight people who didn’t know any better than to condemn homosexuality, because that’s what a cursory look at scripture seemed to demand. So, these gays felt rejected by God, and they’ve been fighting back ever since.
Trust me, I know – I was one of the most religion-hostile people you could have met a few years ago, out and out Christian-phobic. Why? Because I believed that God hated me, believed on some level that I deserved to be hated, and my way of coping was a choice between destroying myself or trying to destroy His followers, trying to destroy my instinctive belief in Him. It made me a very bitter person… but at the same time, I spent years trying to craft my own moral code, and my hatred of Christian hypocrisy made me put integrity at the center of that code.
So I went for awhile, until I transferred to a new college, where as fate would have it, I was placed into a suite of 8 girls… myself, my mostly absent roommate, and six members of Intervarsity Christian Fellowship. Given my attitude, I wanted nothing to do with them, just wanted to survive for a semester until I could move out… but the problem was, not only were they decent people, their community demonstrated an actual sense of concern for others, a radical diversity of experience, and a willingness to help in need, that in my years as an athlete, theatre person, band member, etc. I’d never seen, though it had often been promised. Quite simply, this community loved each other, and they included me in that, though I certainly didn’t deserve it. I didn’t get it. What I did get, though, was the sickening sense that my attitude towards them amounted to nothing more than hypocritical bigotry, and that if I wanted to know why this group was the way it was, I was going to have to understand what motivated them. I’d have to end my willful ignorance of their faith.
They didn’t preach at me – I started asking questions of them (all the while coming out to them, one by one… and to my shock, they cared for me anyway. There was no rejection, and no demand I change – very much a sense of “we’ll let you get to know God, and let God sort it out”). As time went on, I went from admiring what Christianity had made these people into, to loving the Christ-figure himself, for his teachings and what he did.
I’m still sometimes surprised that I evolved into faith, but that’s generally what happened… and now, as somebody who has made that journey, I’m part of another community – that of gay Christians who have managed to meet God… and who have also seen God in His earthly followers, however flawed. Intervarsity is an evangelical, conservative group mostly… so are the churches I’ve attended. It’s a community that I belong to, and yes, I am a pretty conservative Christian myself. When I say that true Christianity is gay-friendly, I don’t mean that certain denominations are (though that’s true), I mean God is… and it is my belief that someday soon, a majority of those who take scripture most seriously, the evangelicals, will come to understand this as well. (Not a slam to more liberal denominations in saying “most seriously” – just using others’ rhetoric).
Having been given the gift of faith, it is my responsibility to try to clear the path back to God for other prodigal children, to try to heal the hurt of rejection I see in so much of the gay community, and to speak prophetically to straight Christians who, by unexamined belief in a particular lazy interpretation of the cobber passages and a fearful posture toward sex, continue to do injustice to God’s gay and lesbian children.
Dalea, you’re very much one for advocating the important of a person’s experiences… well, these are mine. I know conservative Christians who, over time, are maintaining that theological conservatism and becoming more accepting of homosexuality as part of God’s plan for humanity. Polls show this shift, too. Me, I’d say the Spirit is working, and I’m not sure who that scares more – Christians comfortable in their sinful straight superiority, or gays who might just have to look God in the face again, and ponder whether He may actually be Lord. Either way, I know that God stands ready to forgive, and to welcome us all home.
posted by Lori Heine on
“Gee Moderate, if Lori laid off they personal attacks, how would we know she is a Christian? She just fits in so well with all that we are discussing with her vast array of vitriol. Perhaps if you spoke with her as she speaks with others….”
Well, gee yourself, Dalea — if one’s actions and words always reflect one’s religious beliefs, then are we to believe that threatening to get ahold of my ISP number and “deal with” me is typical of Pagans?
Really, stalking and issuing your toothless, paper-tiger threats is spreadin’ the love Pagan-style? How charming!
Had I really been the “fundy housewife” you keep claiming I am, I probably would have melted into a little puddle of terrified goo at the thought of big, manly you (you seem to see yourself as some sort of reincarnation of the Vikings) coming in your long boat to pillage my village. Instead, you got a dyke who’s tough enough to stand up to you.
You must not know many dykes. We don’t titter and scurry for cover like the straight girls do. I was socialized to believe that being a good Christian — like being a demure little girly-girl — meant being a doormat. But I doubt if either the female sex or the Christian faith would have survived as long as they have if they’d been incapable of resisting brutes who want to stamp out by force what they can’t reason with.
Moving on to more intelligent people, Casey, Jim and Moderate seem to understand the complexities of dealing with Christians, gay and straight. Nobody expects perfection from any of them (no, not even the gay ones), but even the tough ones who will not suffer fools gladly are not all haters. (I don’t know many Pagans who would put up with being threatened either. But I would not dismiss their beliefs simply because, if I threatened one of them, he or she called me on it.)
The human race is a rogue’s gallery of characters. And the world would be a boring place without us. But dismissing all Christians simply because some read their Bibles sloppily and condemn gays makes zero sense.
posted by Mark Patro on
Many of the perspectives held by both the LGBT and Christian Communities are a result of segregation which has manifested polar animosity and fear. The fear that each has of the other can be ameliorated through coming together and creating a meaningful dialogue. But, this will only work if both groups are willing to listen. This diplomacy will ultimately fail if either group wishes to convert the other. There are, in fact, moderate and liberal Christians that will accept that Lesbians and Gays can be Christian if, on a personal level we show them that we too can be tolerant. While being tolerant though, we must be brave and stand strong in our belief that their God is also our God and that he created us the way we are just as he created heterosexual Christians the way they are. The validity in our stance comes from, as a previous commenter has written, our having rectified our faith with our sexuality. Maybe those heterosexual Christians who fight with us have not done that either. We should all celebrate that our sexuality is God?s gift to us. Its time to be over sweeping the sexuality conversation under the carpet.
posted by Last Of The Moderate Gays on
Casey, I just had to comment on your last posting . . . What an amazing, eloquent, and powerful recounting of your personal experience! Congrats! PLEASE continue to share your experience with our community. We need more people like you!
posted by dalea on
Casey and Moderate, I have spent a lot of time contemplating your responses.
So, to begin to respond. These are issues I have been hearing for almost 35 years. Probably since before you were born. If you check out my postings here, you might notice something. There are christian churches I do reccomend. Many Episcopalian ones are fine places for gay people. So too with the Quakers. Also the Unitarians and Universalists are well worth exploring. The United Church of Christ has come a long way and now offers a comfortable home for gay people.
To my mind the most plausible reading of the Gospels is offered by Religious Science. Most of these churches are very open to gay people. Unity is a particularly excellent one.
The mainline churches are another matter: mileage may vary with them. But there clearly are gay friendly congregations within them. So be careful. And recognize that these denominations have a long history of turning on a dime. Meaning: throw gay people under the next bus.
Gay churches like the MCC are also a viable place for the gay christian. Never denied that.
You are setting up a strawman and calling him Dalea. I have posted here for a long time, and have some sort of record regarding christians. Please quit imagining things.
posted by dalea on
Moderate sez: I also have no doubt that most gay writers hate Christianity. Thus, I guess that since there’s a majority, they’re automatically right, huh?
That is not the point. Rather this shows a common stream of experience, a constant situation. The authors and the readers who respond to them indicate a general truth about gay people: most have had bad experiences with christians. And from these have come to be anti-christian.
Certain people who are for no clear reason prominently featured at IGF conclude that there is a consiracy afoot. The ‘elite’ and the ‘gay left’ are making the whole thing up. The willing readers are simply tools in the hands of the left. Or, put another way, the idea that authors and readers are emblamatic of a group is untrue. Which contradicts most of Western Thought.
So, now we face the problem: how should gay people deal with those christians who are not in sympathy with them? IMHO the arguments about how we should be more understanding of Christians are not about Episcopalians. After all, the people making these arguments could simply say: Episcopalians, a great group. And give reasons why. Which is easy to do. Instead there is a vague group ‘christians in general’ whose actions are enobled by all the wonderful liberal christians.
There is something going on here.
posted by dalea on
What certainly appears to be the main thrust of these arguments is the idea that gay people should respect all christians. Maybe because of the excellent work of the liberals among them. Or maybe because all religion should be respected, except when it comes to capitalization. Not capitalising names of religions really counts as disrespect. Get my drift?
Now, generaly the arugment about respect is an agenda. Which is: gay people should respect all christians because there are gay supportive people there. This strikes me as a dishonest way of speaking. We should respect liberal christians. We should respect the opening and questioning mainline christians.
As to the overwhelming majority of conservative christians; we should spit on them in public. We should openly denounce them as the hateful, nasty people they are.
No wait, gay conservative christians should do that. They should be the ones doing the confrontation. And they should do it in the same way anti-gay conservative christians do: loud and in public. In actual fact they do FUCKING NOTHING but tell gay people about what kind loving people conservative christians are. And tell gay people to shut up about christians.
This whole schtick ends with me: I do not put up with it. The murky ‘fact’ of a few dozen kind and loving conservative christians is beside the point. Until and unless they step into the public arena and make a big noise; they really don’t exist as a practical reality.
Is this subtle and nuanced enough for Casey and Moderate? How about we promote works like ‘The Jesus Puzzle’ which argues there was no historical Jesus. Bishop Spong’s faith does not rest on a Jesus in history. The churches most open to gays don’t care about this issue; they continue regardless. The mainline can adapt. But the conservative christians faith, and endless pogroms, collapse.
How about we push that this be part of the public school curriculum on the bible?
posted by ben on
that’s so true
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posted by Lori Heine on
Some of us are happy wherever we’re welcomed, a la Sally Field (“You like me! You really, really like me!”)
Some compare one church to another the way they’d compare Target to Wal-mart. As if they’re all merely selling some product called “acceptance,” and the point is to find the store that has the most of it in stock.
Others, like myself, refuse to compromise and live lesser lives simply because we’re gay. We go to a church because it teaches what we, uh, like actually believe.
Damn fine concept, that.
This means, of course, that we must stick around and fight for greater acceptance. Which is what makes so loopy and illogical Dalea’s assumption that we either don’t know how mean some Christians can be, that we somehow manage to live above it all — in some blissful, floating bubble — in which we are not touched by it and therefore do not care, or that we stay in the back pew and do nothing to change a bad situation into a better one.
I’m on my church council, and over the past couple of weeks my pastor (not to mention several hetero council members) have probably decided I’m a major pain in the ass. The pastor has decided that the gays are “too gay,” and that our new Latino ministry is somehow threatened by this.
I told her that if they didn’t like Americans being Americans, they could go back where they came from. I told her my father fought in WWII, both grandfathers in WWI, and I have no damned intention of taking a back seat — nor do any of the other GLBT members of the congregation.
As we’re half of the congregation now, that closes the issue. Do all the straights like it? Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn.
I am perfectly capable of being as big a battleaxe in church as I am on a commentary thread on IGF. If Dalea chooses to think I have some alter ego that is meek and submissive and totally milquetoast when I’m at church, that is his prerogative.
What is the point of bothering to go to any church at all unless you believe in what it teaches? The whole homophobia thing is a part of the corruption that has resulted from Christianity’s having, for so long, been the church of empire.
Every religion that becomes the church of empire is corrupted by patriarchal, sexist, homophobic thinking. The idea that Pagans might have been immune to this tendency is absurd. Read a little Roman history and get a clue.
posted by Casey on
No, Dalea, we’re not asking you to say that Christians, as a group, are good people. People, as a group and over time, generally do a lot that isn’t good at all, and Christians are no exception. We understand that – it’s the whole “fallen humanity” thing. Basically, we’re saying if you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything about them as a group at all, because inevitably you’re painting with too broad a brush. Rather than thinking of this great monolithic monster, the “conservative Christian,” how about realizing that these are individual human beings you’re talking about, many of whom are struggling to understand the phenomenon of gay people, and many who have accepted it – or at least gotten to a place where they decide to leave it up to God, that their only duty is to be Christ in the world, and do so lovingly. As Lori noted, discrimination is hardly limited to people of faith, and so it is unwise to attack that which, in some cases, restrains people from acting on their hatreds (though sadly, too often, people use that religion as an excuse to act on those same base, sinful instincts).
The fact that you disregard these good individuals as irrelevant, that you think the only meaningful action is that which is done with a lot of sound and fury… I have a hard time comprehending that, and I guarantee you probably won’t see it out of people of the Christian faith. Why? Not because we are cowards or don’t care: it’s because that sort of speech tends, very quickly, to become more about making the speaker feel better than about accomplishing anything. Further, I’d rather have a thinking individual on my side than an unthinking crowd any day – just ask Jesus a few days after he rode victoriously into Jerusalem, when that same crowd was calling for his death.
Jesus said that the man who prays loudly in front of many people has his reward (the recognition that he’s so very pious from his peers), and so he says that Christians should pray quietly in a solitary place when they speak to God. By raising this, I don’t mean that the only time Christians should advocate for gay equality is behind closed doors – I’ve supported SoulForce too often to believe that *grins* – but just to point out a set of priorities: be loving and thus glorify God first and always, give in to the temptation toward glorifying yourself for having “spoken truth to power” in an incidentally counterproductive way, never.
Individuals matter. Unseen righteous acts matter. God to us is heard in the still, small voice… Christ touched individual lives, one by one… and today, justice flows when Christians foster reconciliation and live in relationships. That’s the gospel method of changing hearts and minds as I understand it, and as I’ve learned it from many conservative Christians, and if you can’t understand that… well, maybe it’s time to shake the dust off my feet and just continue to pray for you. Your anger sounds like pain to me, and I care for you though we disagree… so I hope you find some healing in the fullness of time. God bless.
posted by North Dallas Thirty on
As to the overwhelming majority of conservative christians; we should spit on them in public. We should openly denounce them as the hateful, nasty people they are.
No wait, gay conservative christians should do that. They should be the ones doing the confrontation. And they should do it in the same way anti-gay conservative christians do: loud and in public.
A bit of advice, dalea; the Scripture in question says, not “Do unto others as they do unto you,” but “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”.
Since I would not have people spit on me and denounce me, I’m not going to do it.
And the fact that you do explains why it so often happens to you.
If you want to do the gay community a favor, stop associating us with hateful, violent people like yourself. Take responsibility for your actions, rather than blaming it on your sexual orientation.
Until that happens, I feel no need to confront anyone else about their behavior toward gays when gays are demanding that we spit on and verbally assault other people because of their religious beliefs.
posted by Lori Heine on
I’m of a younger generation than some of the people who post here. Although I’ve been through my share of crap, it has been nothing compared to what some older gays have faced. I am not unaware of that.
But shouldn’t the legacy we leave each new generation be one of hope, rather than of bitterness?
Those fifty- or sixtysomething gays, who remember a world even more harsh than the one we live in now don’t seem to realize that the times are indeed changing — however slowly this may be. How did gays live for hundreds of years before that? A little perspective might be helpful in seeing things more clearly.
I will never live to see all the changes I am working to help make. And I could be bitter about that. But I prefer to go ahead and work for those changes anyway. I want the legacy my own generation passes down to be one not of bitterness, but of hope. Not of “I can’t, so you shouldn’t either,” but of “I could — and you can, too.”
posted by William on
The author of the article is addicted to faith and conflates it with hope. She might be better off if she knew the difference, and relied on hope, not faith.
posted by DEAN BERRY on
AMERICAN COPS ARE DOING THE VERY SAME THINGS COMMIE COPS ALWAYS DID: http://deanberryministries.net