In a recent column I wrote about a Christian couple who invited me to dinner during one of my lecture tours. I first met the husband when he stood up during a Q&A session after one of my talks. He described himself as theologically conservative but politically liberal, opposed to same-sex religious unions but supportive of civil marriage and adoption for gays, skeptical of reconciling biblical faith with homosexuality but open to arguments for doing so. We met for coffee later, and then he and his wife-who had previously been complete strangers to me-invited me to their home for dinner.
There we had a delightful evening discussing many subjects, including the impending wedding of my partner Mark's sister, an event which would bring me together with my in-laws, who despise me for "corrupting" their son. That story prompted the wife, during grace before the meal, to call God's blessing on me, my relationship, and the impending family gathering. Though I am not a religious believer, I was deeply touched by this act of kindness, and so I wrote about it. I had hoped that my account of the evening might show what people of good will can accomplish when they focus more on their shared values than on their differences; more on listening and learning than on winning.
It should have come as no surprise to me that Peter LaBarbera completely missed that point, instead using the column as an occasion for his usual anti-gay drivel. LaBarbera, who operates the website "Americans For Truth (About Homosexuality)," posted a response at the Independent Gay Forum which read in part:
"[The wife] erred in asking a holy God to bless a relationship based on sexual misbehavior clearly condemned by the same "God-breathed" Scripture that [she] surely regards as inerrant. [She] may and probably did have some secret prayer regarding your relationship-say, that it become non-sexual-but by asking God, before you, to "bless" it wrongly implied God's acceptance, and thereby misled you about the Christian faith."
For the record, I did not take the wife's blessing to imply approval of the sexual aspect of my relationship. As I wrote in the original column, the husband had voiced his theological misgivings about homosexuality, and I had no reason to think his wife's views differed on this point. Rather, I assumed that she was simply calling God's love upon us-no more, no less. As another respondent, "Casey", wrote eloquently:
"By praying that your partnership be blessed-that God's hand would be upon it, and His Spirit would open the eyes of Mark's family that their cruelty was wrong-this couple was behaving in a most Christian manner…. For somebody who is deeply skeptical of homosexuality, yet sees the humanity and suffering of the way Mark's parents treat you, the ultimate sacrifice possible, the act of radical love, was to give up their certainty of what is right and wrong and just love you by offering that prayer and accepting you into their home...and letting God sort it out."
Unlike Casey, I wouldn't say that this couple "gave up their certainty of what is right and wrong" that evening, any more than I gave up mine. Rather, we distinguished: there are times to moralize, and then there are times to listen to people, to welcome people, to love people.
I would even agree with LaBarbera that loving people sometimes means telling them that they're wrong. Sometimes, but not every moment. Sometimes it means telling them that they're right about certain things (as I did with LaBarbera in the first sentence of this paragraph). Sometimes it means enjoying a meal with them while exploring shared interests. And sometimes it means just shutting up and listening.
The reason Peter LaBarbera's "Americans for Truth" website contains so little truth is that LaBarbera is incapable of listening when it comes to the topic of homosexuality. He believes himself to have the Truth-capital T-and so he arrogantly proclaims what a "holy God" can and cannot do. He reads a tale of Christian charity in an uncharitable light, causing him to make false assumptions about both the couple's intentions and my reactions. He reduces a complex human relationship to "sexual misbehavior," then wonders at how his fellow Christians might imagine God there. Like the Pharisees who merit Jesus' wrath in the Gospels, he forgets that belief in an infallible God does not render one infallible.
Peter LaBarbera claims to be "for truth" about gays and lesbians. He should try listening to some.
23 Comments for “Listening to God—and Gays”
posted by Casey on
I’m flattered that you chose to quote me, Mr. Corvino – I was happy to see that you’d posted another article, happier still at the title, and then it made my day to see my own words in there, particularly juxtaposed to Mr. LaBarbera’s. One thing I thought I’d clarify – when I said that the wife “gave up her certainty,” I did not mean to imply that she’d changed her mind about her belief of the sinfulness of homosexuality. I meant that she’d decided not to act out of an arrogant certainty of her own correctness that would make her unable to pray for God’s unconditional love on you… the same arrogant certainty that Mr. LaBarbera wanted her to embrace. So much of Christ’s message is about letting go of certainty in the things of this world – as Andrew Sullivan put it “Jesus of Nazareth constantly tells his fellow human beings to let go of law and let love happen: to let go of the pursuit of certainty, to let go of possessions, to let go of pride, to let go of reputation and ambition, to let go also of obsessing about laws and doctrines.” As a Christian, the only certainty I cling to is the love and grace of God, demonstrated in Jesus’ life, death and resurrection. The professor’s wife did the same – she still believes as she did before, most likely… but out of faith in grace, she was able abandon the sinful pride that would make her stubbornly cling to that belief, and just love you… and so the Kingdom comes.
posted by Casey on
PS: Nice timing – that makes for one heck of a birthday present!
posted by Brian Miller on
loving people sometimes means telling them that they?re wrong
I don’t agree with this phraseology — it’s vague and subjective.
Loving people means indicating when you think they’re making a mistake — stepping in and declaring they’re “wrong” is altogether more dictatorial.
People make choices that vary from what I would choose, and if I worry about the consequences, I share those concerns. However, they’re sovereign individuals and they choose their own circumstances. If things go badly for them, it’s important to help them most effectively — often by not bailing them out — but to tell them they’re “wrong and should do things my way” is profoundly arrogant.
That’s actually one of the biggest problems with Mr. LaBarbera and other religionists. They’re constitutionally incapable of seeing where other people come from, or attempting to understand real-world dynamics in interpersonal relationships and social relationships at large. Instead, they hold up a mythologically-based “lifestyle” model and declare that any deviation from it is automatically “wrong” — the white part of their black and white worldview.
Now, I am not one to attack principle, but I also hold up principle to empirical analysis, and there’s precious little evidence that LaBarbera’s “model” is either unusually effective/beneficial or superior to other alternatives — especially for gay folks, who are the odd men and women out in his “have lots of kids in the missionary position” view of things.
posted by Last Of The Moderate Gays on
John:
Thank you so much for two very refreshing and much needed missives on this. As someone who grew up in a fundamentalist household, I feel like I and others who grew up in the “Bob Jones world” but who have come to terms with who they are, are in a unique position to see “both sides of the story.” It never ceases to amaze me the lies, half-truths and outright hatred many on both sides inflict on the other.
I think most would agree that living a true Christian life does not mean you get to be the ultimate judge for other people’s spiritual lives. That’s God’s job. And, that’s the biggest problem with many on both sides. Although it sounds like your friend is not a part of that crowd, he and his wife exemplified what REAL Christianity is all about. We don’t have to agree on how each other lives our lives — we just need to follow Christ’s example.
posted by James on
Who gives a damn about approval from fools. Long before I realized I was gay I- at the age of seven – questioned a friend about God. My friend informed me a few days later that his parents had told him I was a bad person and he wasn’t allowed to play with me. Christian values.
posted by John on
Last of the moderate gays – Being gay has nothing to do with “how one leads one’s life”. I spent many celibate years knowing at some level I was gay before coming out at the age of 26, and I wasn’t doing interior decoration. I was studying organic chemistry. I was just as attracted to men before I finally came to terms with it as I am now. Sexual orientation is a state, not an action.
posted by Brian Miller on
Who gives a damn about approval from fools.
Exactly. This crystallizes it better than any other argument I’ve yet seen.
Why do I need the approval of silly statists, silly religionists, or silly people out in the “wild?” I don’t. I merely need the approval of myself, my friends, my colleagues and my customers. Everyone else’s opinions are completely irrelevant, and the old “minority’s fantasy” of bigots coming to them to apologize and make up is referred to as a “fantasy” for a reason!
posted by xstate on
I do not beleive that most of the organized religions on the earth will support LGBT groups. It is a direct threat to their power as the idea of LGBT contradicts their “perfect GOd” delusion.
posted by Last Of The Moderate Gays on
John:
Of course. I share a very similar story to yours. What I was referring to was the fact that clearly John’s hosts did not agree with the fact that homosexuality is innate, yet they acted in a true Christian fashion by treating him with love and respect — leaving any judgement to God — as it should be.
Even taking out the religion factor, the plain truth is that not everyone is going to agree (or “like” or “approve” or whatever word you feel comfortable with — sheesh!) with us, but we had all better learn to get along — like it or not. Just to be clear, that does not being a “doormat” when our rights/safety are being trampled on.
I always find it interesting that those who hate religion and/or Christianity in particular seem to relish in throwing up all of the negative things associated with religion throughout history and never mention the infinitely greater good things religion has done, like feeding, clothing, and housing the needy.
James, just as I would not base my opinion on just about anything based on one experience, I would ask that if you are interested in getting a more complete picture of what Christianity is really all about, talk to a clergy member who is from a gay-friendly denomination. Their answers to your questions and their demeanor just might surprise you. Don’t worry — despite what some may think, there are PLENTY out there, if you’re willing to get off your behind & look for them. Even if you still maintain your views, at least you’d have a more complete picture on which to base your decision.
posted by Regan DuCasse on
John Corvino perfectly articulates what I do in my personal relationships with gay folks, and what I try to convey to other straight folks, especially those who say their religion or faith keeps them from accepting gay folks. Or at the very least, accept the symbiosis and integration of gay folks in all aspects of human (and some animal) life.
John is right, that LISTENING and BELIEVING what gay folks have to say for themselves, what their hills and valleys have been, is trusting in one’s faith.
I still can’t get over how many straight people bald face argue with gay folks over when and how a gay person knows there are gay, and whether it’s a choice.
Straight people are in NO place to argue or deny what gay folks tell them.
Mores the point, there is a moral obligation to learn reality from urban myth propagated exclusively BY those who are anti gay, and woefully inexperienced with more than stereotype.
These days, the discussions among scholarly Jews is taking on a common sense approach to the acceptance of homosexuality and what this means to the Jewish culture and society at large.
Which is, no one really knows or can be sure, until one is open to and allows everything that will assist knowlege and truth.
One cannot get that by being closed off and restrictive towards the group at the foundation of the discussion.
One cannot be closed off to learning more, when there is ALWAYS more to learn, if claims of the truth are to be authentic.
Peter LaBarbera, for example, lacks authenticity. His information is second hand, isolated and narrow.
He is one of legions.
And there is no religious license that should be unchallenged that’s causing a whole group pain.
We’ve seen this in our history before against other groups, and those who claim religious discipline should be wary and aware of this abuse.
I trust those more, who know they don’t know. And are unafraid to test their own common sense and compassion and ASK questions and LISTEN.
THIS is what faith is all about. This is where I know MY faith in God is stronger than those who profess it, yet are so untrusting of every opportunity presented to know a gay person better.
I have believed fully and strongly in the dictum to treat another as you’d be treated and trusted moral clarity to arise from it.
In that way, I have seen clearly the difference between how gay folks are treated as opposed to how the public at large is treated by gay folks.
One cannot stand on opinion against gay folks for very long when the ball is in the court of the majority hostile to gay people, but are benefitting at large by the direct or indirect talent, compassion, and bravery of gay folks.
Being a straight ally, I’m asked often why I support gay equality and acceptance. I say that I have no reason not to. I’ve had the experience and believe what gay folks tell me, where the opposite side hasn’t bothered.
What I tend to do, is question the straight folks. Ask them why they have such low expectations of gay folks as if gays and lesbians are such uncivilized beasts that even the most basic of what we hold dear is kept from them. And done so in ways that prove the strong motive to want it, work hard politically and financially for it, yet judgement rests on not having full acceptance. Rather than the results of it.
And judgement deserves to be reserved AFTER the fact, and not before.
It might be true that most organized religions won’t accept the LGBT. But organized religion is at it’s foundation misogynist. Untrusting and offended by females. Especially females sharing equal power, status and self determination.
The strictest religious communities created artificial behaviorial structures for males and females, and those that don’t conform to GENDER conformity are not only abnormal, but evil and worthy of eradication by said religious communities.
Those Christians that see God, and the treatment of another human being well, as having no gender boundaries…is faith that our God, Creator has no gender or definition of man and woman beyond the physical.
These are usually the foundations of what I have to argue with the religious.
The ball is in their court, and there IS a patent responsibility to a very basic thought about goodness, God’s judgement and choosing to treat another person well and equally and measuring them from that good and equal treatment.
To a reasoned and logical person, this is only fair. And a demonstration of faith in working to understanding our place together as gay and not gay, rather than apart.
Which we have been for so long, and to each other’s detriment.
The picture is complete…one has to step back to be able to see it, and not be afraid to.
posted by Paul K on
“Why do I need the approval of silly statists, silly religionists, or silly people out in the wild?”
You don’t. But, alas, they have a great deal of power at the moment. While you may not need their approval what they do has a big impact.
posted by The Gay Species on
Judeo-Christian scriptures are unequivocal in their condemnation of same-sex erotics. Romans 1 is without question one of the most vitriolic polemics in the entire Bible. It seems terribly disingenuous to ignore such an unabashed condemnation, if one believes the Bible is inspired. Christians often pick-and-choose what they prefer to believe, but the Reformers were not any more flexible than the Catholics or Fundamentalist. And in the most prescient sense, Paul speaks as god having already “given” same-sex activity to the damned. Only casuistry will make such vitriol less stinging, but if the a believer does not believe Romans 1, why believe any of it?
posted by Brian Miller on
It is a direct threat to their power as the idea of LGBT contradicts their “perfect GOd” delusion.
Exactly. Religious institutions changing their “Bible-based” attacks on gay people would essentially require them to declare that “God’s word” is flawed or invalid. That’s why they’ll never do it.
I mean, it took the Roman church centuries to apologize to Copernicus for torturing him for his “solar system heresy.”
posted by Jorge on
“Even taking out the religion factor, the plain truth is that not everyone is going to agree (or “like” or “approve” or whatever word you feel comfortable with — sheesh!) with us, but we had all better learn to get along — like it or not. Just to be clear, that does not being a “doormat” when our rights/safety are being trampled on.”
I’ve met a lot of young men (mostly blacks) who did not accept homosexuality (or any kind of gender non-conformity), and they didn’t say much about God then. Sometimes it’s a struggle to win their respect for me as a person. I do win their respect eventually, and it’s a powerful thing.
The last person I came out to was very supportive, I clearly had his respect, but he let a few words slip. He said whatever I “choose” is all right with him. Being gay was never my choice. And yet I learned that in this person I had a truly loyal friend.
I remember another person in a campus newspaper I used to write for, who was very anti-PC in general, and I heard him use the f** word. Wasn’t surprised at all, but I didn’t let it pass. Basically harmless guy. I would’ve had it out with him eventually, but I wouldn’t have cared.
Most people who can respect us like this couple does aren’t exactly saints. They’re sinners. They’re going to sin.
posted by Les GS on
Brian, just a side note, Copernicus was never tortured by the Catholic Church. He avoided that by making sure his heliocentric theories of the solar system weren’t published until after his death, of natural causes.
Galileo Galilei, years after Copernicus’s death, supporting his theory of a heliocentric solar system, was prosecuted by the Catholic Church. While he was shown the devices of torture the Inquisition utilized, they were never actually used on him, as he abjured his “errors” and was placed in house arrest, until his death.
The Vatican decided they both might be right in 1983.
posted by Rob on
All I have to say to peter is,
“If you judge people, you have no time to love them.” -Mother Teresa
posted by James on
Last of the moderate gays – Where do you think I grew up? The New Guinean Highlands? My example of Christian hypocrisy was just one of a great many I’ve experienced. I even attended Catholic high school, believe it or not. Why do so many Christans take the extremely condescending view that there could be anyone in our society of even minimal intelligence who isn’t thoroughly aware of what there about? Some of us just like a certain kind of natural goodness in our fellow human beings and despise those who profess an obviously phony “love” for others, regardless , even, of our experiences.
posted by James on
The gay species – “Saint” Paul also makes it clear that marriage is to be only a last resort for those who cannot resist the temptation of sex and must resort to marriage to constrain their promiscuous nature. Jesus also commanded those who would follow Him to abandon their families. A far cry from our modern gay-hating Biblical “literalists” for whom the whole point of creation seems to be heterosexual matrimony and where an easy and selfish commitment to one’s own family turns traditional spiritual values upside down.
posted by Nick Will on
JOHN JOHN JOHN!!! WHEN WILL YOU QUIT WITH THE FORUMS LIKE THIS (respectable and worthy though they are) AND START WRITING FOR TIME MAGAZINE???
YOU DESERVE A BIGGER PLATFORM, AND LITERARY FAME, AND WEALTH, AND BUSY SUNDAY MORNINGS ON TALK SHOWS!!!
It’s time, John…. call me. Repeat: It’s time. Your time has come. Seize it.
AT THE VERY LEAST John, for the love of god (pun intended), start posting regularly at americablog.com and dailykos.com. START MAKING BIGGER WAVES. PEOPLE NEED YOU. YOU. YOU. SHARE THE LIGHT JOHN!!! SHARE THE LIGHT!!!
posted by John on
Nick Will – Did I inspire your snide praise because I don’t beat around the bush or because something I said threatens you in some way? Don’t you even have the guts to state what you disagree with or are you afraid you will look illiterate if you try?
posted by Nick Will on
“John” Lear or whoever — given that the author is Prof. JOHN Corvino, and given that I made no specific mention of whoever you are here, you might have been advised to take a breath and consider that perhaps I was addressing the AUTHOR, and not some guy in the comments thread.
I can appreciate your dedication to the forum, but it’s not all about YOU “John” (whoever you are)!!
posted by Last Of The Moderate Gays on
James:
Whoa, calm down, there! I’m sorry I’m not intimately familiar with every aspect of your life. And, I certainly did not mean to be condescending.
And, sorry, but if you think growing up Catholic is tough, it ain’t nothing compared to growing up fundamentalist and attending fundamentalist schools. The leaders don’t just hate gays, they pretty much hate everyone who isn’t fundamentalist. While you apparently chose to let some negative experiences affect your view on Christianity, I chose to seek out another path. It’s not a matter of “I’m right and you’re wrong.”
You see ” . . . a certain kind of natural goodness in our fellow human beings . . .” I see a world where, without a higher vision and purpose, people are solely out for themselves. Just look at the D.C. Beltway at rush hour . . . Where’s peoples’ “natural goodness??”
Guess we’re just going to have to disagree, and that’s perfectly OK. I still genuinely love you anyway.
posted by xstate on
haha like anyone takes Peter LaBarbera seriously. I don’t, his type are just as dingy as the redneck types that give you hell for being LGBT. In my opinion, I think Peter’s a queer.