The Pope’s Pivot

Finding “a new balance” between its obsession with gays and contraception and everything else would be better than not. But at some point (and it’s way, way past due), the Roman Church is going to have reform its dogma or risk increasing irrelevancy outside of the most hidebound jurisdictions. If the Latter-Day Saints can change course on formerly racist doctrine, then the Roman Church should be able to do so on its unchristian, non-Gospel-centered anti-gay doctrine, as it (mostly) has done on its past, 2,000 year history of virulent and bloody anti-Semitism. But will it?

More. A related controversy involving occasional IGF contributing author John Corvino: Catholic College Rescinds Invitation to Speaker Defending Same-Sex Marriage. John’s response is posted on his website, here.

16 Comments for “The Pope’s Pivot”

  1. posted by Houndentenor on

    Are we talking about the same church that took 400 years to admit it was wrong for excommunicating Galileo? Yes, they will come around. Will any of us live that wrong? I doubt it. More likely the church will be too irrelevant at least in the West for anyone to notice or care what their policies are by then.

  2. posted by Tom Scharbach on

    I doubt that the Catholic Church will abandon the Christian theology of the last 1,500 years, and begin teaching that sexual activity outside of marriage is acceptable.

    Nor does it seem to me that any of us who are outside the Church have a legitimate claim on the Church in this regard, expecting the Church to change its core teaching about sexuality.

    But I hope that the Church will abandon the virulently anti-gay obsession of the last couple decades, pick up where it left off with Always Our Children, and begin acting with pastoral concern for gay and lesbian Catholics.

    The change will not come quickly.

    The Vatican II, pastoral bishops appointed by John XXXIII and Paul VI have been replaced by doctrinaire conservatives like Timothy Dolan (Cardinal Archbishop of New York, formerly bishop of Milwaukee), Robert Morlino (Madison) and John Neienstedt (Minneapolis/St. Paul). All are entrenched in myopia.

    So while I hope that the Church will return to its former movement on treatment of gays and lesbians, I doubt that we will see much change until this generation of bishops has passed on, in turn. The good news is that none of them are getting any younger.

  3. posted by Tom Jefferson III on

    I think it is important to realize that within the Catholic Church the Pope is not — actually — the sole decision maker. He cannot simply alter the doctrine of the Church overnight and even gradual efforts can be blocked by more conservative bishops.

    It would be nice if the Catholic Church came around to accepting same-sex marriage in its ‘No sex until marriage’ doctrine, but I doubt that is on the table for now. I doubt it is going to change its views on birth control.

    In the late 1970s, we had a short-lived Pope who MAY or may not been entertaining some sort of Vatican III or doctrinal change on birth control and homosexuality. He died not long into his papacy.

  4. posted by Jorge on

    A NY Times article, and from the day after, eh?

    I noticed different online sources saying different things at different times, so I checked out the the English translation of the full interview from the British Jesuit website

    http://www.thinkingfaith.org/articles/20130919_1.htm

    Some of it is dry, some of it is interesting. And there is marked change in tone in the part around where he talks about/is asked about abortion and gays. It is strident. Forceful.

    Actually the change in tone is the only thing this NY Times article fails to capture. This article is very accurate in content and scope.

    With that said, it is time for yet another reference to my most common citation: The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith’s Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons.

    Steven Miller, I take very strong exception to you calling the Catholic Church’s doctrine un-Christian and anti-gay. In the 2003 Considerations, the Catholic Church states: Nonetheless, according to the teaching of the Church, men and women with homosexual tendencies “must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided” As early as 1975, the Church recognized that gay people exist, and that gay sex should be judged with prudence. In the 1986 Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons, the Church states: “The Church today addresses the Gospel to a world which differs in many ways from ancient days.” Even while directly citing Leviticus, this letter states even more directly, “It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law.”

    I have pointed out these truths on this website time and time again. Your accusation that the Catholic Church’s doctrine is anti-gay and un-Christian can only be called out for what it is: an outright falsehood reflecting a callous and malicious disregard for the truth.

    Nor can it even be argued that the Catholic Church was frozen in time during all those years Joseph Ratzinger was pulling the doctrinal strings: the 2003 Considerations holds back on the Leviticus citation.

    Thus, any suggestion that the Pope’s words herald any shift in doctrine is wrong. The shift is in action.

    There is one difference between Pope Benedict and Pope Francis, and that difference is everything: Both know the truth about gay people. Both speak the truth about gay people. Only Pope Francis is out to demand that this truth be spoken in and out of the churches, clearly and often. So that the Church will hold the community accountable for ensuring we be treated with respect and sensitivity. So that the Church in the community will condemn the violence we are in fear of. So that the spirit of justice and dignity which has been written into the Catholic Church’s texts by the Panzerkardinal becomes a reality in our lives and in our fellows’ hearts.

    • posted by JohnInCA on

      You say the doctrine isn’t “un-christian and anti-gay”.

      To that I respond… if it isn’t, then why have so many read it so wrong for so long? If I, and many others, have false impressions of the doctrine, it is not out of maliciousness, it is because we have been carefully taught by the Catholic hierarchy.

    • posted by Tom Scharbach on

      “It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law.”

      That is the teaching of the Church. The practice has been at variance with the teaching, and deplorable.

      Let’s check that, using the three bishops I mentioned in my comment above:

      First, word. Bishop John Neienstedt of Minneapolis/St. Paul: “Today, many evil forces have set their sights on the dissolution of marriage and the debasing of family life. Sodomy, abortion, contraception, pornography, the redefinition of marriage, and the denial of objective truth are just some of the forces threatening the stability of our civilization. The source of these machinations is none other than the Father of Lies. Satan knows all too well the value that the family contributes to the fabric of a good solid society, as well as the future of God’s work on earth.

      Next, action. Bishop Robert Morlino of Madison has made it known that legalization of gay marriage will eventually spell “the end of democracy” and that the increasing acceptance of same-sex marriage is happening because “Satan has a plan to destroy our country from within.” He has removed gays and lesbians from lay ministry throughout the diocese. In the most recent election, Morlino posted an official statement (“Official guidelines for forming a Catholic conscience in the Diocese of Madison.”) forbidding Catholics in the Madison diocese from voting for political candidates who favor marriage equality. In 2006, during the anti-marriage amendment fight, Morlino required that a pre-recorded message be played to parishoners at every Mass demanding that Catholics reject equality: “If we admit that there is such a right, that causes the collapse of the family and that causes the collapse of society, in due time.”

      Finally, law. Cardinal Archbishop Timothy Dolan (“Today is a tragic day for marriage and our nation. The Supreme Court has dealt a profound injustice to the American people by striking down in part the federal Defense of Marriage Act. The Court got it wrong.“) has led the fight against marriage equality in our country, speaking out often, funding NOM and other anti-equality groups, and working with Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone (San Francisco) and other bishops to craft, fund and execute a nationwide political strategy to deny gays and lesbians our right to equal treatment under the law.

      The bishops cited are the tip of the iceberg. The Catholic Church may teach that “homosexual persons” should be afforded dignity and respect, but the words of those to whom the Church has been entrusted have been 180 degrees different. The Catholic Church, in official statements, has described gays and lesbians as “objectively disordered”, has described sex between gays and lesbians as “deviant” and “intrinsically evil“, has described the arguments in favor of gay and lesbian equality as “deceitful propaganda“, has described the movement for gay and lesbian equality under the law as “aggressive attempt to legally undermine the family” and has accused gay and lesbian couples who adopt children as “doing violence to these children“. Pope John Paul II described the movement as “a new ideology of evil” that “attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man“.

      That is not dignity. That is not respect.

      It is one thing to teach that sexual activity should be confined to the marriage bed, and, as a result of that teaching, hold that all other forms of sexual activity are sinful. It is quite another to demonize gays and lesbians and link our struggle for “equal means equal” as Satanic, and tie our legal equality to the end of democracy and family.

      That is what Pope Francis was addressing, as well he should. The Church, according to its own teaching, is the fullest and truest expression of Christ on this earth. If that is the case, God help us.

  5. posted by Jorge on

    You say the doctrine isn’t “un-christian and anti-gay”.

    To that I respond… if it isn’t, then why have so many read it so wrong for so long? If I, and many others, have false impressions of the doctrine, it is not out of maliciousness, it is because we have been carefully taught by the Catholic hierarchy.

    Why have so many chosen to read it wrong despite being educated on multiple occasions that they are reading it wrong? That is called bigotry. Why do such people, when they are educated, insist on holding to their beliefs for vague platitudes such as that which you have described? That is called bigotry.

    What exactly have you been taught by the Catholic hierarchy? And why, when you have been presented with a mix of experiences from all things Catholic–don’t try to tell me you haven’t–have you chosen to believe despite clear evidence to the contrary that the doctrine of the Catholic Church is anti-gay and anti-Christian? Renounce it.

    That is the teaching of the Church. The practice has been at variance with the teaching, and deplorable.

    I take that as agreement that Mr. Miller’s statement that the Catholic Church has an anti-gay, anti-Catholic doctrine is deliberately callous and misleading.

    First, word.

    Eh. As failures to respect the dignity of gays go, this example is what I call a high F. Taken as a whole (abortion, contraception, etc.), I think the comment has more merit than demerit.

    Next, action.

    The example you gave here deals very narrowly with gay marriage (You try to turn it into “equality,” but social equality is has no meaning without an on-the-merits recognition of the natural rights of man, and those rights do not include civil marriage, much less social approval for religious marriage.)

    I have major problems with the Church’s actions, as I have alluded to. It has to do with sins of ommission, rather than sins of commission. If you would like to suggest that the two go hand-in-hand, then I would be with you.

    Finally, law.

    This is the least convincing of all your examples. In both here and in the example above, you are conflating “clear and and emphatic opposition [to legal recognition of same sex unions] is a duty” with being anti-gay, with being hostile to respecting the dignity and worth of gays. This is not acceptable, and I won’t permit you or anyone to state this falsehood as truth without exposing it.

    The bishops cited are the tip of the iceberg.

    Then maybe you should have started with the heart of the matter instead of pointing to invisible smoke.

    Now I must address my weakest assumption.

    Reasonable people, educated and otherwise, believe that homosexuality is an abberant condition and circumstance. Reasonable people, educated and otherwise, believe that marriage between a man and a woman is the only sexual-social order that is intrinsically right (holy) and which leads to the betterment of society. Whether or not denying legalized gay marriage is unjust discrimination is an open question. Where one stands on this question is an inappropriate grounds for evaluating the morality and especially the authentic Christianity of other persons and parties.

    • posted by Jorge on

      “Anti-Catholic doctrine” >> “Anti-Christian doctrine”

    • posted by Tom Scharbach on

      Well, Jorge, what can I say? If describing our honest struggle for equal treatment under the law as the “machinations of the Father of Lies” and “deceitful propaganda“ is treating us with respect and dignity in your eyes, so be it.

      I think just the opposite. I cannot imagine what it must be like for Catholic gays and lesbians to hear such words spoken by their bishops, spoken about them.

      Words do matter, you know. As Rabbi Abraham Heschel said of words, “Speech has power. Words do not fade.” The words we use have power to heal or to hurt. The words we use have the power to wound others and to divide people from one another, in some cases beyond reconciliation.

      • posted by Jorge on

        Well, Jorge, what can I say?

        It is very simple. You can listen to the whole story and try to come up with a fair and balanced explanation for all of it instead of cherry-picking. Then you would appreciate that there are three tiers in the public’s acceptance of homosexuality instead of two: acceptance, tolerance, and rejection. You would be better able to recognize how to move things toward acceptance were you able to recognize the difference between tolerance and rejection.

        • posted by Tom Scharbach on

          You would be better able to recognize how to move things toward acceptance were you able to recognize the difference between tolerance and rejection.

          I understand the difference. The words and actions I’ve cited are not words of tolerance.

          Think about this for a second: Pope Francis made a very clear and direct statement about the words and actions of the Church the other day. Do you think that he did so without reason? I don’t. I think that he was addressing the words and actions of men like Cordileone, Morlino, Neienstedt and Dolan, among others.

          At least I hope so.

  6. posted by Jorge on

    And in today’s news, Pope Francis is keeping the current Benedict-appointed head of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith.

    http://news.yahoo.com/pope-keeps-cleric-leads-nun-crackdown-job-115458940.html

    Francis has now put his imprint on several key positions which help administer the Roman Catholic church’s worldwide flock. His management picks will likely both please and disappoint both conservatives and liberals alike, perhaps in line with his fledgling papacy, which has often defied labels in either camp.

    In another important decision, Francis left Archbishop Gerhard Mueller in the powerful role of prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

    That “dogma’s” not changing anytime soon.

  7. posted by Houndentenor on

    BTW, the LDS church seems to be gearing up to fight against gay marriage in Hawaii. So much for them staying out of the issue. I hate sounding so cynical whenever a religious group makes any sort of announcement, but so many of them talk out of both sides of their mouths that skepticism is warranted.

  8. posted by Tom Jefferson III on

    Again, it is hard to know how much of what the Pope says is trying to move in a direction of doctrine (i.e. Vatican II) or a new way or emphasis of the current doctrine.

    It is difficult because their is a certain level of intense bureaucracy (and I suspect the rough equal of ‘office politics’) within the Catholic Church — as an institution — that even if the current Pope wanted to shoot for Vatican III, he has to work within the bureaucracy and the office politics of his church.

    The Catholic Church has been very, very good at ‘BS’ when it comes to its doctrine on homosexuality. They almost never step into the lime light to address the dignity of gay people in any substantive way (i.e. policy), but their are always Catholic leaders on hand to attack gay people.

  9. posted by Kosh III on

    One point that everyone dances around is the fact that so MANY RCC clerics are flaming fags.
    They know it, we know it. Until these alleged leaders deal with this, nothing much will change.

    Also, I’d like to point out that the Church both East and West had “marriage” ceremonies for same-sex couples(Boswell) for centuries. Sts. Sergius and Bacchus anyone?

    When these fraking liars repent of their hypocrisy, things will change. Not before.

  10. posted by Tom Jefferson III on

    Koch

    I have not had a chance to read the Boswell book on same-sex marriage in pre-modern Europe. I am just starting his early 1980s book about Christianity and homosexuality.

    I suspect, that with the later book the powers-that-be probably argue that they were not actually same-sex marriages but deeply, intimate statements of pious and platonic love between men….. ;0)

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