First published in the Chicago Free Press, January 2, 2008
I just finished reading an engrossing book titled "The Age of the Bachelor" by Howard Chudacoff. It details the development of a specifically bachelor-oriented culture in major U. S. cities between 1880 and 1930, suggesting why it developed, how extensive it was, and what institutions grew up to service its needs.
Some of the reasons for its development include the rise in the average age of marriage, the rapid increase in immigration, and the difficulty many men working low wage jobs would have had supporting a family. But more important was the development of institutions to meet the needs of single men for meals, housing, companionship and entertainment--thus making it possible for increasing numbers of men to lead a comfortable and satisfying life without any need for marriage.
The extensive array of primarily male institutions that developed or expanded to meet bachelors' living and socializing needs included rooming houses, cafes, saloons, barbershops (given the lack of hot water for shaving in most rooming houses), pool halls, tailor shops, bathhouses (no hot water for bathing either), all-male social clubs and fraternal organizations (Elks, Odd Fellows), vaudeville theaters and music halls, participant and spectator sports, and "red-light districts."
The newly developed YMCAs might offer any or all of the following amenities: rooms for rent, cafeteria and lunch counter, barbershop, gym, swimming pool, shoeshine stand, telephones, employment service, laundry room, game room, newsstand, and even entertainment in the evenings.
There are only a few incidental mentions of gay men in the book, but it seems obvious that some of those bachelors (15 to 20 percent?) were gay and that bachelor culture enabled gay men to meet one another and explore their lives with a new freedom. In some ways the book can serve as a prologue to George Chauncey's "Gay New York"--and gay Boston, gay Chicago, and other major cities where bachelor culture created the conditions for the first wave of gay community.
For instance, not only did primarily bachelor social institutions enable gay men to find one another more easily, but some rooming houses and YMCAs allowed residents to take guests to their rooms. Some bathhouses turned a blind eye to patrons who engaged in sex and some bathhouse employees must have been available for "massages." And there must have been young gay or bisexual men in any of these environments who were willing to engage in sex for a small fee. For much of this we have to make educated guesses but Chudacoff's book gives us the material to do that.
Although modern technology and a developed economy have enabled today's bachelors to have at home conveniences (telephones, hot water, spectator sports) that were once available only publicly, it is still fascinating to see how many of the social and entertainment institutions of modern singles culture and our gay culture have preserved or replicated in one form or another institutions developed around the turn of the century.
"The Age of the Bachelor" is not a new book. It was published in 1999, so you won't see it listed in any of those best books of 2007 or whenever. But not every good book gets the attention it deserves when it is published. This is particularly true of academic books, which tend to survive--if at all--as footnotes in other books. Yet when you seek them out they can turn out to be highly informative in ways you did not expect.
I've run across several other books in the past year, whether gay-specific or not, that I found worthwhile reading. Among them:
Rictor Norton, "The Myth of the Modern Homosexual" (1997). The title refers to the modern "social constructionist" myth that no men or women had a homosexual consciousness until the late 19th century when the word "homosexual" was coined. Drawing on copious historical research tracing self-understood homosexuals back through the centuries, Norton destroys that myth and restores gay history to its full legitimacy. He also shows how flimsy were the arguments advanced to support the myth.
David M. Friedman, "A Mind of Its Own: A Cultural History of the Penis" (2001). Friedman wittily traces the various ways the male member has been viewed in different times and cultures, including religious, anthropological, psychoanalytic, scientific and feminist approaches, and illustrates how the penis has been symbolized (battering ram, measuring stick, cigar, gear shift) over the years.
Michael Sherry, "Gay Artists in Modern American Culture: An Imagined Conspiracy" (2007). Sherry details the increasing number of gay creative artists in the fields of music, theater, and literature in the 1950s and the growth of a homophobic reaction against them. Critics charged them with shallowness, insincerity, inauthenticity and a distorted view of the world. A fascinating recovery of a dismal episode in recent American history.
Corvino, John
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Just so you know, I’ve tried the MCC. I find them too theologically liberal. Believing in gay equality doesn’t have to mean diminishing the Deity of Christ. The MCC is also not open to my belief in Intelligent Design or my pro-life values. I’ve also looked at UU, but the same is even more true there. I’m an Episcopalian, which, for me, has a blend of conservative and liberal when we’re getting along.
The other day, a friend of mine and I went out into a field and shot rifles. This is fairly typical. I don’t think I’m going to meet the kind of man I relate to in a piano master class. Nor am I interested in having a high-profile corporate job in an expensive city. I’m more into Thoreau and Walden (another one of my 19th century gay heroes). I like living simply. So, as the above post so clearly points out, I’m marginalized by the gay community for not being flashy and shallow and mercenary and narcissitic–I’m also old and fat (in gay terms–which is over 40 and overweight).
I’m also out, BTW, to my friends, family, church, etc. If anyone asks, I don’t care about people knowing I’m gay. But no one ever asks. It’s unfair to claim I’m in the closet when most people simply don’t care whether I’m gay or not.
Ashpenaz, if you look more closely at your hero Thoreau, you’ll learn that he didn’t live fulltime at Walden Pond. He commuted into Boston on many weekends. His book didn’t mention any of this, just as your right-wing churches don’t mention the corporate jets and secret abortions. The problem with knowing the truth is knowing the truth.
By the way, you can drive a truck through “overweight.” How fat are you? Could it be that you’re having a hard time finding companionship for reasons other than moral values? Are you as open to overweight, middle-aged men as you’d like others to be?
I know I?m probably just pissing into the wind here but I can?t help myself.
Could you explain the reasoning that places Andrew Sullivan and Elton John in the same space with Larry Craig? Harvard and Oxford educated, respected in Washington DC political circles, Sullivan is a church going, marriage promoting, conservative that recently got married himself. Isn?t that what you keep agitating for? I think he?d be the man of your dreams. John is an entertainer, he?s flamboyant, a bit of a diva, so what?that?s part of his job description. His Aids Foundation has raised millions for AIDS sufferers worldwide. His public civil union with his longtime partner was refreshing in an entertainment industry that still prefers it?s gay stars bearded.
Could you explain in specific terms why Sullivan and John are dishonorable or untrustworthy? Why exactly don?t they measure up to the high standards set by your straight buddies? Who have they lied to? You don?t think these men contribute to the community? You keep railing about marriage well here are two high profile gay men who are married and they still don?t make the grade in your eyes. What about either of these men is unprincipled? Is it because they?re fallible?John battled substance abuse and Sullivan contracted HIV? Or is it because they don?t subscribe to the same check list of opinions on certain issues that you do?
Follow this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_E._Kameny Does this man rate your respect? How about this one? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_Wolfson.
What are we really talking about here? Is this about finding healthy, principled, relationship oriented men or is this about finding gay men who buy into a certain religiously driven set of agendas? The two are not the same thing sorry. Is a person a degenerate because he doesn?t share your opinion on abortion or intelligent design? There are gay anti-abortion groups (http://www.plagal.org) connect with them if the issue is so defining for you.
Doesn?t it dawn on you that the very existence of this web site and the issues that it puts forward goes against your ongoing assertion the gay life is nothing but a barren wasteland of drugs, bathhouses and bars. Do you imagine that all of us are sitting here with trays of cocaine next to our computer keyboards while our last trick sleeps it off in the bed nearby. Is that what you imagine? You more or less imply that. You come onto this site issuing what amount to blanket insults and it?s getting tired.
25 years of reparative therapy? 25 years!? Is it possible that you?ve internalized some of what you where taught about gay life in that therapy? You equate club/street culture with urban gay life, it isn?t. Yes there are gay train wrecks, addicted and denigrated, but there are also plenty of straight folk in the same sorry condition and I don?t hear heterosexuals denouncing urban straights because of it.
Cities are magnets for young people gay and straight. And a certain number of those people will for whatever reasons make poor decisions?drugs, hustling, petty crime and lord knows what else. Some of this starts out as youthful experimentation, some of it?s desperation. Some are able to walk away from it and others get mired in it and become middle aged, addicts and hustlers. I know of no community here in NY that believes being a drug addled hustler is a good thing. We have shelters and counseling for gay youth. There?s every conceivable type of support group, meeting everyday in the community center here. There are many clinics that offer services free or at great discount. Far from pushing people off the cliff, we urban gays put an enormous amount of resources towards helping people who are struggling.
Now, in addition to narcissism, hedonism and general degeneracy we can add avarice to our list of transgressions. Yes real estate prices in cities like NY and Frisco are out of control. But guess what? The majority on NY faggotry isn?t found in deluxe apartments. The reason a lot of us are able to live where we do is because we took chances on neighborhoods that were derelict and seedy. We bought places others didn?t want. We went into these fringe communities and helped to rebuild them. People forget that 25 years ago most of Chelsea was a dump and the East Village a war zone. Now the block is hot and the Smiths T-shirts have given way to Wharton T-shirts. Such is the pattern of urban development. It?s not something we?re doing to cheese off the folks in the country. We saw opportunities and took them. And a new generation of gays are staking their claims to new neighborhoods.
Wow! It’s interesting that you would never consider giving such well thought-out advice to an urban, hedonistic, narcississtic, young, beautiful gay. Because that’s the norm, and that’s OK. Only us old, fat, cranky gays are worthy of your criticism, because there’s something wrong with us, not the community.
Like Thoreau, I too have been to the big city. But people made fun of me for looking up at the tall buildings so I cried and left.
I find Andrew Sullivan’s giggling Obama worship to be very adolescent. I bet he has posters of Obama all over his room, and probably his locker as well.
I went into reparative therapy because all the gays I knew were alcoholic, drug addicts. I even had the chance to kiss a guy with AIDS before that was cool! I didn’t want to be part of the gay world around me, and the only thing which offered a model of gay life congruent with my values was reparative therapy. I think the gay community is responsible for driving many traditional, moral men into reparative therapy. I blame all the pain and suicide that reparative therapy causes on the gay community for refusing to find a place for men who want to live normal lives according to traditional values. Driving such men away by handing them a copy of Numbers, a box of condoms, and a Gwen Stefani wig means they will likely run away and reinforce their shame by finding a reparative therapist. But, of course, you won’t see that the gay community has ever done anything wrong to anybody.
Fat and old is not an issue for me–right now, I’m attracted to Roger Clemens and I’ve been known to ogle David Wells pictures, and I still look for Kirk Gibson photos. James Gandolfini is sponge-worthy. Will Sasso and Kevin James are really cute. The key is masculinity, not weight or age. Please! Don’t bring up bears–now that’s just plain fat. And the cuddling is a real turn-off.
“Just so you know, I’ve tried the MCC. I find them too theologically liberal.”
I thought you were looking for friends, not religious comrades. It is not necessary to agree with the “deity of Christ” to like 4th of July parades and backyard barbeques more than dance clubs and casual sex.
“The other day, a friend of mine and I went out into a field and shot rifles. This is fairly typical. I don’t think I’m going to meet the kind of man I relate to in a piano master class. Nor am I interested in having a high-profile corporate job in an expensive city.”
I’m sure you’re the ONLY gay person ever to like guns. http://www.pinkpistols.org/
You don’t know what Carlos was like just because he played the piano, or what Jason and Ryan were like just because they lived in Ft. Lauderdale and Jason worked for a software company. It sounds to me like you are the intolerant and unaccepting one – you won’t hang out with anyone who has a job you wouldn’t like to do, plays an instrument, believes in Jesus differently than you, etc.
“I’m marginalized by the gay community for not being flashy and shallow and mercenary and narcissitic–I’m also old and fat (in gay terms–which is over 40 and overweight).”
No, you’re marginalized by a small portion of the gay community for being “old and fat” and simple and rural and conservative. The rest of us are out here living normal lives, but you don’t like us because we don’t meet YOUR criteria.
The self-pitying ‘nobody will sit next to me at lunch’ stuff got old back in 5th grade. Your views on abortion and evolutionary science and Christ’s deity, combined, line up with people who generally also condemn gay people. You’re not going to find too too many gay people, therefore, who share all of them (although I know liberal gay atheist pro-lifers). But that doesn’t automatically make them shallow and hedonistic. If you give us moderates and liberals a chance, you might find that we’re not all urban sophisticates, druggies, and sluts. But it WILL probably mean having to… YUCK!… associate with people who don’t agree with you 100%.
Be nice, and most people will be nice to you in return. There’s always going to be some asshole who can’t avoid picking fights with you over ID at the 4th of July barbeque, whether you’re hanging out with gay people or straight people or… shock of all shocks, a *mixture*.
“I think the gay community is responsible for driving many traditional, moral men into reparative therapy. I blame all the pain and suicide that reparative therapy causes on the gay community for refusing to find a place for men who want to live normal lives according to traditional values. Driving such men away by handing them a copy of Numbers, a box of condoms, and a Gwen Stefani wig means they will likely run away and reinforce their shame by finding a reparative therapist. But, of course, you won’t see that the gay community has ever done anything wrong to anybody.”
I partially agree, but I disagree with your assessment of the root cause.
There most certainly IS a place for men like you and women like me in the gay community. But there is a part of our community that is visible, radical, and annoying. And there is a part that, like you and me, might be “out” but isn’t nearly visible enough and is drowned out by the radical queers and the fundies yelling and pointing fingers at each other. So I would lay the blame for voluntary reparative therapy equally on:
1) the excesses of the radical, transgressive, queer community
2) the near-silence of the normal gay community
3) the excesses of the “traditional values” culture – something that I consider to be a major contributing factor to the last two points
4) the lack of research and imagination and common sense on the part of those men who enter it – oh yeah, personal responsibility, baby.
And of course, involuntary reparative therapy on minors is simply inexcusable.
But you’re out of reparative therapy now, and you should know better than to consider “the gay community” to be anything other than a loose categorization. With millions of gay people in the US, I think you can find a few that meet even your high standards for moral behavior. (If you stop looking only for men that agree with your every passing opinion.)
I’m not looking for someone to agree with my opinions. I’m looking for certain qualities: responsibility, maturity, integrity, self-control, accountability, inner strength, wisdom, honesty, honor, monogamy–these are not things which most gay men ever develop. Most straight men grow out of their wild youth, get married, settle down, contribute to their church and community. It is really, really rare to see a gay man do the same thing. Are you saying it’s common? The norm? Really–where? Some gay Brigadoon where most gays are married with families and are members of the volunteer fire department? (Sorry for the showtune reference–but I know you’ll get it.)
I went into reparative therapy because all the gays I knew were alcoholic, drug addicts.
Next thing we know, you’ll tell us that you were crucified for mankind’s sins.
“I’m not looking for someone to agree with my opinions. I’m looking for certain qualities: responsibility, maturity, integrity, self-control, accountability, inner strength, wisdom, honesty, honor, monogamy–”
Then why, when I suggest looking at a gay-oriented or gay-friendly church, do you respond that you looked there, but “the theology was too liberal”?
(And why do you ignore my other suggestions?)
Was there anything else wrong with those people, other than their religious creed not being exactly like yours? Were they REALLY all immature, irresponsible, unprincipled, out-of-control, unaccountable, weak, foolish, dishonest, dishonorable, and promiscuous? If you’re looking for openly gay people who contribute to their churches, I’d start with the churches that *don’t* condemn their sexuality as incompatible with a Christian life.
“These are not things which most gay men ever develop.”
Bullshit. You just don’t believe that anyone who doesn’t agree with you 100%, or anyone who has ever made a mistake, could possibly possess them. This is why you toss out Andrew Sullivan, a family man and a Catholic, like he’s some anti-monogomy radical queer. If you’re looking for perfection, you’re going to be disappointed.
“Most straight men grow out of their wild youth, get married, settle down, contribute to their church and community. It is really, really rare to see a gay man do the same thing. Are you saying it’s common? The norm? Really–where?”
Everywhere except the bars and dance clubs and sex shops, my friend. You won’t find the nicest straight people hanging around in a bar all day, so I’m not sure why you expect gay people to be any different. But you know what else most straight men do? Even after their “wild youth”? They MAKE MISTAKES. They have affairs. They have midlife crises. They get fired. They hit their wives. They drink too much. They embezzle money from their company. They act like assholes at sporting events. They put too much pressure on their sons to live the life they wish they’d lived. Nobody lives a life free of mistakes.
“Some gay Brigadoon where most gays are married with families and are members of the volunteer fire department? (Sorry for the showtune reference–but I know you’ll get it.)”
No, no I don’t get it. I like a few musicals but not the old ones, which the reference seems to be from. ANYWAY. Do you expect to find them all in one place, together? Why? One of the very things that you’re looking for is that they’ve moved beyond their gay identity and do things that have nothing to do with being gay. So why would you expect them to be ghettoized?
Actually, no one I’ve ever met shares my religious creed. Maybe Kierkegaard? Is that too old for you?
Using musical references which may be more familiar to you young folks, omigod, omigod, you guys, I can’t really feel the love here tonight, but that’s just the bitch of living, I guess, so let me tell you about my circle of life–ok, enough of that.
Here’s my plan: I’m going to live me life, strike up conversations with single over-30 men I find attractive, and hope to meet someone who feels mutual attraction. I don’t want to go to gay.com or dudesnude or Pride parades or bars. I just want to meet normal guys in the course of my normal life. My point in all these posts is that I plan to live my life without the help or support of the gay community. I think there are a lot of gays who step outside the rainbows because they feel unwelcome there because they are old, fat, Christian, conservative, cranky, poor, or any number of unpleasant things that never make the cover of Out. I’m going to be a freelance gay.
I’m through accepting limits
‘Cuz someone says they’re so
Some things I cannot change
But till I try, I’ll never know!
Too long I’ve been afraid of
Losing love I guess I’ve lost
Well, if that’s love
It comes at much too high a cost!
I’d sooner buy
Defying gravity
Kiss me goodbye
I’m defying gravity
And you can’t pull me down!!!
“Actually, no one I’ve ever met shares my religious creed. Maybe Kierkegaard? Is that too old for you? Using musical references which may be more familiar to you young folks, omigod, omigod, you guys, I can’t really feel the love here tonight, but that’s just the bitch of living, I guess, so let me tell you about my circle of life–ok, enough of that. ”
Achooo!
Excuse me. I’m allergic to jerks.
Seriously. Just because I prefer modern musicals to those of the 40′s and 50′s, I must be some kind of ignorant young’un who wouldn’t touch someone “old” like Kierkegaard with a 10-foot pole? Again, get over yourself. My preferred musicals and my preferred philosophers are not inherently linked in any way.
“Here’s my plan: I’m going to live me life, strike up conversations with single over-30 men I find attractive, and hope to meet someone who feels mutual attraction.”
Well gee, that’s exactly what I’ve been suggesting you do, except for one difference: that you maybe start looking in places that don’t *actively campaign* against homosexuality, because most gay people avoid those places. (I know, how SELFISH of them.)
“I don’t want to go to gay.com or dudesnude or Pride parades or bars. I just want to meet normal guys in the course of my normal life.”
I didn’t say to go there. I also wouldn’t suggest ‘adultfriendfinder’ or cosmo.com or the Mardi Gras parade or the a meat market straight bar to my straight friends who are looking for companionship.
“My point in all these posts is that I plan to live my life without the help or support of the gay community.”
Fine. That’s your choice. But for one thing, you’re lying to yourself if you think that you could live the life you’re living now if “the gay community” didn’t exist/hadn’t ever existed. The ’19th century paradise’ you think you’d be living in was no such thing – and even if it was, it was only for a select few, so, selfish much? And here I thought you were perfect…
And for another thing, it’s going to be harder to find and recognize nice, openly gay people if you avoid anything remotely welcoming to or aimed at gay people.
No matter what your ‘point’ was, what you’ve been *saying* in all of these posts is that all of the people who do not reject “the gay community” wholesale couldn’t possibly have these qualities: responsibility, maturity, integrity, self-control, accountability, inner strength, wisdom, honesty, honor, monogamy.
Them’s fightin’ words.
“I think there are a lot of gays who step outside the rainbows because they feel unwelcome there because they are old, fat, Christian, conservative, cranky, poor, or any number of unpleasant things that never make the cover of Out. I’m going to be a freelance gay.”
Old, fat, Christian, conservative, cranky, poor people generally don’t make the cover of ANY magazine, gay or straight. So sorry for your loss. Meanwhile, there are plenty of old, fat, cranky, poor, and Christian people inside the “rainbow”. There are even some conservatives.
Your error is in believing that gay.com and the more scantily-clad parts of the pride parades represent the whole of the “rainbow”.
Ashpenaz, I wonder why it is you appear to be much more critical of the gay community than you are of the anti-gay bigots. Sure, there are people in the gay community who are extreme and whose behaviors you (or I) approve of. But there are also many who are out and proud. Why not be happy for them even if they don’t have the same personality and characteristics you have. And where is the criticism for those who continue to use “reparative” “therapy” to “cure” homosexuality? You’ve said you’ve done it for a long time, and you now see it first hand for the farce it really is. If you’ve received anything good from it, then hold onto that and trash the rest and move away from it for good. You see how they continue to harm people by making them believe they can be something that they are not.
There’s value in trying to change things for the future of people in your communities, gay, Christian, whatever. But there’s also a time for one to stop blaming others, no matter how bad they are, to solve your own problems.
It appears that you set yourself up for failure. You said in a much earlier post about there being “flyover” gays with values that you have. And in your last post you reaffirm that. So go out there and meet these people. Instead, you are longing for the days where the good gays don’t talk about their sexuality and maintain privacy (tough to meet people that way). And could it be in the long list of characteristics, you simply are describing, in your PERCEPTION, what a straight guy is and what a gay guy isn’t, and use the magic word “masculine” all the time? So that when you find a gay guy with many of the characteristics you are looking for, but won’t measure up to being “masculine” because, after all, he’s into guys? And when that happens, blame the gay community for waving rainbow flags and going to pride parades.
So get out there and meet these guys. Accept the fact that gay guys, like straight guys, are not going to have ALL the characteristics you’re looking for. So instead of automatically tossing aside a gay guy who falls short on a couple of things on your list and denounce as not being “masculine,” give the guy a break like you do the straight guys. When you look for the negatives in people, that’s exactly what you’ll end up with. Start looking for the positives and you’ll find as time goes by, you’ll find you’ll get that as well.
The reason I don’t necessarily give advice to those who you perceive to be “urban, hedonistic, narcississtic, young, beautiful” gays is because if they are happy, they probably don’t need it. If they come on here and say they are not happy with that life, I’ll give them advice too.
Your plan in your last post is fine. But don’t set it up for automatic failure and deflect the responsibility from yourself.
JL, I agree with the point in the last paragraph of your post. One should knock down another who’s going through hard times. And some may be doing that here. Others are giving helpful advice, and that includes telling someone to take responsibility for their life and choices, and to stop the “woe is me” stuff. I’ve been there too. And as soon as I took responsibility for my own actions, and stopped taking actions that were doomed to fail and blame others, the switch turned on. Yes, it’s good to be a good listener as well, and be sympathetic. But just doing that facilitates the failure.
Just for the record I have given advice to young, beautiful, party boys who I thought were setting themselves up for injury and disappointment.
That’s what friends do.
Is Ashpenaz just a Bobby resurrected?
Is geothermal kind of jerk for talking about people in third person?
I don’t really have a lot to say except my plan to get you all to like me has failed miserably.
We might like you better if you stopped insulting us so egregiously.
Ashpenaz, if you want people to like you, it might be a good idea to not knock other people down who are not like you. In any case, you’ll find that as soon as you take the steps you need to be happy, you’ll find it won’t be necessary to get people to like you. It will just happen. And it won’t matter if there are people who won’t like you.
No geothermal, Ash is not Bobby…he is the poster formerly known as James though. I don’t know why he changes his handle here once every few months…just like his sad and lonely ex-gay tinged existence, it is his prerogative.
I changed my name from James because there were too many in the blog world. I chose Ashpenaz because of his importance to me as a Biblical gay character.
It’s interesting that you make the assumption that men who reject or criticize the gay community are somehow inevitably unhappy or lonely. There are many non-gay people out here, you know, and some of them can even talk musicals. And there are all sorts of non-gay things to do. Really. Step out of the gay ghetto and you’ll discover a veritable amusement park of people to meet and things to do which have nothing to do with being gay.
I would like to connect with gay people who wouldn’t require me to change who I am to fit their idea of what gays should do and believe. You say that such gays exist, but I’ve met lots ‘o gays and they are more oppressive with their opinions than the NRA members I’ve met. I obviously haven’t met every single gay man you say is out there, so there’s still hope these wonderfully openminded gays exist. I’ll take your word for it and keep up the search. I haven’t seen any on this blog, yet, in that everyone here tries to shame me into change–at least the Christians who wanted me to go into reparative therapy were pleasant as they were shaming me. So, if my experience meeting gays are going to follow the pattern of this blog–in that they will say there is something wrong with me and I have to change before they like me–then it doesn’t really seem like it’s worthwhile to explore the gay community any more than I would explore fundamentalist Islam.
Ashpenaz, I have an acquaintance (straight) who’s sort of in a pathetic quasi-relationship. Of course, I advised her to get out of it, but chooses to continue with the scraps or hope of scraps that the relationship brings. The other party is happy with the way things are, even though I personally don’t like his tack. Guess who has to change? Hint: It’s not him.
She should either get out of it, or at least change her attitude of the relationship and accept the limitations there are. Right now she chooses to continue with it with the same false hope and disappointments.
That’s where you are. You’re helding firm for an impossible dream (that you set yourself up for), and then express disappointment and blame others when the failures you set yourself up for occur. If you want things to change, guess who has to change, you or the young, beautiful, out and proud gays. Hint: It’s not the latter.
This does not mean that you have to undergo some fundamental change, and start waving all the rainbow flags you come across, and sleep with everyone you meet at a gay bar, if you want to go at all. But, at the very least, it might help to change your attitude about the gay community. This does not mean you have to like everything about the gay community. But it helps to accept there are people different from you who are happy, and blaming them for your situation is not going to help you.
Of course, if you do not want to change a thing, you don’t have to. It probably means that you are happy enough with the way things are. But it apparently includes asking for advice, and automatically rejecting it and restating how bad you have it and how bad everyone else is. Again, it’s your right, but, as you know, people can only put up with it so much.
And this should tell you something…at least the Christians who wanted me to go into reparative[sic] therapy[sic] were pleasant as they were shaming me. Twenty-five years of these charlatans being pleasant, and see where that got you. Do you want another 25 years of nice people saying, “oh, you’re so right, that’s too bad, you just keep on trying the same thing and hold on to your misery,” or do you want something else? It’s all up to you.
Anyway, Ashpenaz, unless you have any questions about what I’ve written, this will be my last advice post to you. I wish you good luck no matter what you decide.
The straight analog to Ashpenaz is a man who, after being taken to the cleaners in a divorce or two, declares that women are (fill in the blank). He is projecting his disappointments onto the world at large.
“everyone here tries to shame me into change”
You can’t come in here insulting “every gay person you’ve ever met”, including us, saying that we’re all just hedonistic, shallow, oppressive pieces of valueless trash, and expect us not to object.
Pointing out the fact the 19th century wasn’t all roses for gay men, and that choosing to remain silent and being forced to remain silent are two very different propositions – that’s not “shaming you into changing”. It’s just the facts – no oppressive opinion necessary.
Telling you that you’re not the only openly gay person ever to be pro-life, pro-gun, A True Believer, and an appreciator of rural simplicity is not “shaming you into changing.” They’re rare, considering that those beliefs are statistically associated with the belief that homos are sick people who are going to burn in hell, and therefore also associated with deeply hurting and deeply closeted gay people. But I’ve known gay people and gay allies with one or more of those beliefs. I know they exist. To find them, I’d try the ex-ex-gay groups, maybe – it seems to me that those who do might be more likely to have tried “reparative therapy” in the past.
You what else is not “shaming you into change”? Pointing out that you are conflating ‘traditional values’ like honesty and responsibility with ‘traditional values’ like outlawing abortion and denying evolution. It’s downright nasty of you to claim that there is “nobody” in the gay community with the former.
Nor is it “shaming you into change” to tell you that if you want to meet nice gay people, you’ll have more luck if you:
1) Be more open about acknowledging your sexuality. That’s my advice to a self-described “I don’t tell unless asked” guy who would like to connect with some gay people who don’t bludgeon him with liberalism. The more you put it out there, the less chance you’ll pass each other by.
2) Open your heart to people who might have different opinions that you about guns, fetuses, and Jesus. The reason I believe that this is good advice for you is the easy conflation of different definitions of “traditional values” that I already mentioned observing in you.
Sure, there are going to be some who don’t open their hearts to YOU because of your beliefs – them’s the breaks. But my friend Ross and I get along well enough even though I don’t agree with his unquestioning support for hate crime legislation. I like my friend Cate even though she’s rabidly anti-regulation in contexts that I think clearly merit regulation. Hell, my partner is a card-carrying member of the NRA and I think SOME gun control legislation is a good idea. Don’t buy what the media is selling about the extreme polarization of America – it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.
That’s not shaming you into change. It’s just advice. And we don’t assume that everyone who “criticizes the gay community” is sad and lonely. We’re just responding to your own complaints. If you’re not unhappy with the way things are now, or lonely, then what is all the fuss about?
Karen: “And we don’t assume that everyone who “criticizes the gay community” is sad and lonely. We’re just responding to your own complaints.”
Thanks for the follow-up on my response. I was not making a blanket statement, just responding to James’ specific and individual complaints. Someone who finds himself ostracized from almost every community he has made himself available to and then takes to the internet to rail against EVERYONE is, in fact, a sad and lonely person. There is nothing wrong with living your life sad and lonely….just don’t blame EVERYONE for your position in life.
Liberals that live in a cesspit like DC are the worst kind. Seriously, GET OVER YOURSELVES!!!
p_rik, as a former D.C. resident, I always found that the place rocks a lot more when the Republicans are in town. Those angry young right-wing men, all wound up and nowhere but the bushes to go …
I was finding this discussion interesting and thought about adding some of my own thoughts. But something tells me that no matter what the issue, Ashpenaz would be negative and unhappy.
It’s all very well to romantize the past and “confirmed bachelors” and all that; but the phrase itself implies heterosexuality. And, yes, many people got through the times without trouble–unless you were unlucky to be in Boise; or Harvard in the 20s; or the University of Florida in the 60s or DC in the 50s. It’s like the role-playing games–everyone thinks they’ll be lords or sorcerers–not the scullery or peasant.
As an “urban gay” with deep roots in the rural/small-town midwest, I resent your attitude. I go home every year for Xmas; helped raise nieces and nephews; I’ve attended my share of softball games and dance recitals. I would kill to protect those I love. If you don’t like Pride parades–don’t go. If you think bars and so on are shallow–stay home. Your screen name is a dead giveaway about your beliefs–I think you’re a Christian troller who’s just around to stir up trouble
“As long as the wrong person never found out about them. If they did, then the “confirmed bachelor” would end up in prison, if not dead.”
Is this really true? I’ve read a few gay histories, and I’ve never heard that this was at all common in the 19th century. If nothing else, very few people ever understood the sexual nature of the relationship. Male and female couples were able to hold hands and embrace in public, and to write non-explicit love letters without fear of exposure–unless children and/or prostitution were involved.
There were other pressures, however, that many of us don’t have today. Both men and women were usually pressured into marriages, which often led to lonely and unfulfilled lives for all concerned. Also, I’m sure many gays and lesbians in rural areas (90% of the population at one time) had trouble finding partners, or even a single other gay person.
So– it was no paradise. However, it’s wrong to thing that progress comes with no price at all. We’ve gained much more than we’ve lost, but perhaps we’ve lost some things.
It’s weird, because I know lots of gay men (and many gay women) with “traditional values”; most are religious, but not all.
I can’t figure out why Ashpenaz should be having such trouble.
bls, I’ve been in the same place. There was always plenty of gay people. But I discovered I had to change and be more accepting of myself and stop blaming everyone for my problems and make excuses, things clicked. I guess I realized the world isn’t going to change for me and to stop whining about it, and get going.
You have got to be kidding me Ash? Karen, you make a wonderful argument for all of us but what no one has mentioned yet is that Ash is the gayest person typing on this board. I could take him and drop him in the middle of a Sunday afternoon tea party and the boys would have to drape a “I’m the biggest queer here” banner across his fat hairy chest. Jeez man!
What you and the rest of the world don’t get or acknowledge is that being a homosexual has nothing to do with being a queer. I have sex with the same man everyday. We own our home together. When we met, I was broke and he was not. Now he is broke and I am not. There was or never will be any mergers and aquisitions going on in our corner of the world. The only thing that separates us even the tiniest bit from the rest of the world is that we love and have sex with a member of the same sex. We don’t hang a rainbow flag out front, quote musicals or lines from gay icon movies or flap our hands incessantly while talking to other people. We don’t have to be members of the “gay community” in order to be homosexuals. I talk, walk, dress and behave like a man. So does he. We’ve raised a son and he too is a helluva man. We don’t do x,g,t or any other one initial substances. Guess what Ash? We have friends just like us.
When you go to New York on your upcoming trip, you will not see us at the bars, bookstores and bathhouses you visit. You can only find us at home or at work. We have to invite you in. That means you have to come to our city and work for the meaningful relationships that you will develope just like we did.
Did you think you would pull into a city and the people would be lined up with signs that said things like “normal gay man”, “meth head”, or “sexual deviant”? You have identified being gay with criteria that the media and a few gay men have laid out for you. You therefore look for your version of “good gay” in all the wrong places.
People don’t have to ask me if I’m gay either but that’s probably because I’m holding another man’s hand. I question if the reason they don’t ask you is because you’re singing showtunes at the top of your lungs in public venues.
BTW…being able to shoot bullets into an open field does not a man make.
A man or woman takes responsibility for his or her own life and reality. Neither blames it on some imaginary community created through media. The gay community is a figment of your own imagination.
I guess you’re right, Pat. Thanks for putting it into perspective.
Well said, Tom.
And Ash, you can go to as many cities as you want looking for what you think you need, but you’re still pulling that boat-size load of baggage with you. Wherever you go, you’re still there. It’s you and your perspective that needs to change – stop blaming the world, and begin to see things differently. We almost always see what we expect to see as long as we’re rooted in the past.
There’s just as much diversity within “gay” as there is within ‘straight.’
Tom,
You know this for a fact? As in, you’ve met him?
I have a hard time believing it, but dude, if it’s true, that is HILARIOUS.
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